Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koushiro 02-04-08, 11:45 PM	So I finally manage to get my paws onto a Kobold creation card and the darn campaign is going to expire by the end of the year! The absolute shame of it all. Now I don't even know what I want to make! So I'm going to ask everyone what exactly did you all make your kobolds into? I'm torn between some of the more interesting options open for them too. Kobold fighter isn't bad, but a little painful, a cleric could be interesting and go for Singer of Concordance? Rogues? Sorcerers? The dragon blooded Sorcerer and Dragon wrought combination seems to give like 3 extra useful class skills... Argh, can't make up my mind! To make matters worse I'm building it for the ruins of greyhawk adaptable to try and power level him.
Maesto 02-05-08, 01:04 AM	Heh... If you go the sorceror route, remember that no matter what useful class skills you get, you still get next to no skill points. I've gone for a sorceror just for the cuteness factor. Think Jar-Jar Binks put in a kobold's body... and then please don't have homicidal thoughts for having such an awful mental image put into your brain :P
Puggle Halfwine 02-05-08, 06:10 AM	Think Jar-Jar Binks put in a kobold's body... Online play! Your kobold! My kobold! Now!
RanielK 02-05-08, 11:05 AM	Ate my baby! Sorry, too much caffeine.
RanielK 02-05-08, 11:12 AM	On a more relevant note, my friends and I started a mostly kobold party for CGR. We've got the dragon winged fighter (who will be taking the kobold fighter subs), the dragonwrought sorceress, the dragonwrought traps rogue (me, and are you seeing a patern yet), the dragonwrought cleric (aasterinian luck and travel, I think), and a dragonwrought other dude (sorry Jon, I forgot what character you're playing, Ranger I think). Needless to say, we've got all the bases covered. We also mostly all specialized in disguise to run around pretending to be gnomes so we aren't killed on sight and can bring down the stellar reputation of our enemies by misbehaving (though not too much as we don't want to be run out of town).
Arvagor 02-05-08, 03:26 PM	... So I'm going to ask everyone what exactly did you all make your kobolds into? ...I considered the sorcerer route, considering how "built into" the class the race is meant to be, but he just ended up being way too fragile, no matter how you sliced it. In the end, I decided to go the beguiler route, for several reasons: * More hit points * More skill points * Can wear armor * Effectively, same # of spells/day as a Sorcerer, but more choices * Fit my concept better Re: the last point, I went with the tack that, since the PC was from the Mist Kingdoms, a realm of dragon philosophers, that he was a philosopher and debater more than anything else. Since he would be a "talker" more than a fighter, he's also a bit of a pacifist, in that he doesn't like to cause unnecessary harm -- hence the ability to use the illusions and non-damaging spells in the beguiler's repertoire. I also renamed some of his spells to fit the concept: color spray became "flash of insight", sleep became "peaceful contemplation", etc. As far as stats go: Str 6, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10; 1st level feat was Dragonwrought (Mist) (nice bonus to Concentration, that), and skill ranks were concentrated in those skills that fit the concept as well (Diplomacy, Listen, Sense Motive, Concentration, Spellcraft). He's a got a few ranks in the more roguish skills -- 4 in Hide, 1 in Move Silently, and 2 in Tumble -- but that's more to reflect the "skittery" nature of being a kobold, as opposed to trying to emulate a rogue (he has nothing invested in Search or Disable Device). And 1 rank in Profession (miner) (he is a kobold, after all), and a few in Profession (cartographer) (I wanted him to be in one of the Greyhawk guilds, and only the Cartographers Guild seemed appropriate enough for an out-of-town kobold-philosopher... Basically, I really introduce him as a sorcerer/philosopher more than anything else...
Hariman 02-05-08, 07:42 PM	The Kobold options I considered are: (This will take a little while, so bear with me.) Also, the further down the list you get the better the option is in my book. Kobold Fighter or Fighter/Barbarian I don't recommend going for a melee Kobold unless you WANT an uphill battle. If you do, I recommend an 18 in dexterity, (Dex and Size bonuses there make a +5!), the entire Weapon Focus/Specialization/Mastery line of feats. (Damage = good.) fighter sub levels 2 (Con) and 4 (Str) but not 1, spear focus sucks for finesse fighters. Kobold Ranger: Whether Ranged or melee, the best part of ranger is getting the above ranger normal Dire Weasel. I recommend ranged or mounted combat if you choose Ranger. Getting to the BETTER options: Kobold Rogue: You'll be fragile, because those kobold substitution levels have d4 hit dice on top of your con penalty, BUT for the mere cost of 1 skill point per rogue level in "Craft: Trapmaking" you gain a maximum bonus of +6 to search and disable device checks for finding and disarming traps. And that's by 8th level, before adding in the actual skill points you'll want to put into search and disable device. Surviving in combat is another matter. I recommend a high dex and weapon finesse or ranged weapons. (including alchemical weapons like holy waters, acid flasks, etc) Kobold Bard: (Or bard/Dracolexi): Good support option here. Bards are always good as 5th or 6th wheels. Dracolexi can also give you some extra goodies. Kobold Beguiler: This is a pretty good option, as stated above. BUT it has many of the same weaknesses as a rogue, and no way to deal damage in combat other than the "Whelm" line of spells. Carry alchemical weapons and have a high dex. NOTE: Practical Metamagic is a good feat for metamagic users, but I'm not sure which spells and metamagic feats work best with beguilers. Kobold Druid: Nothing special here, beyond being a druid with an animal companion, which can be sent to fight for you or ridden into battle. Not to mention that you'd be a DRUID. Which is a good thing to be. Especially if you can manage the myriad creatures you can summon. Kobold Sorcerer: Very good option here. (IMHO) Taking practical Metamagic: Empower Spell at level 6 (possibly retraining a feat to empower spell to do so) means you will use lower level spell slots to toss out your damage spells. And if you skip rapid metamagic, you can gain 2 different Practical Metamagic feats. Practical Empower + Practical Split Ray = Split/Empowered Ray spells for +2 spell levels instead of +4. Other combinations can be just as effective/fun. Kobold Cleric: It's a Cleric. If you choose IO you get a decent choice of Domains, your choice of ANY alignment that is legal. (Yes folks, the Nine Fold Dragon embodies all alignments, so you can be any alignment if you are a cleric of IO.) Singer of Concordance is good, but isn't necessary if you don't like it. You will also gain the ability to Craft Wondrous Items (with the feat) like only a cleric can! All those stat boosters are yours for the crafting, along with many other useful items. Personally, I would have played a Sorcerer, had I not already been playing a sorcerer as my primary character. I ended up choosing Cleric/Singer of Concordance. My strongest recommendations go to Cleric, Sorcerer and Druid. Bard/Dracolexi, Rogue and Ranger are a little lower on the list. Fighter and Barbarian are not good options unless you really optimize your kobold's build. (Which is a good thing for a kobold.) I actually recommend playing a cleric W/the strength domain if you want to play a melee kobold. I hope this helps: Hariman
Istaran 02-05-08, 08:20 PM	My recommendation is divine caster, arcane caster or rogue-type in that order. If you try melee (other than roguish) you are playing to your characters weaknesses rather than strengths. A halfling fighter 4 is likely to be much better than a kobold fighter 4 with sub levels. I made a kobold cleric for my GHR character, and it has worked beautifully. I've been a useful contributer playing 4 levels up, and not died so I am happy. A few things I've learned from my experience: Domain substitution = fun. Spontaineous Bull Strength is something I've never minded having on hand, and a wand of CLW makes up for the limits of my prepped healing. Strength + Magic domain = fun. I'm not much in melee but I can drop MMs from a wand all day and bring along any wizard scrolls I want to have handy. I also get to cheat and be a cleric who can use Eternal Wands. (It always confuses people that the party healer can't use the Eternal Wand of Cure Light Wounds normally..) And someday I look foreward to using Righteous Might + Strength domain power + Feat of Strength + etc. to pull off a feat of strength beyond what your average half-orc barbarian could do. You know, just for the wrongness of it all. Turn Energy = not fun. I enjoy the fact that my cleric neither channels positive nor negative energy, and Turn Energy is occasionally useful. However, the text says you qualify for feats/classes/etc as though you turn/rebuke undead. It does not, however, allow you to spend Turn Energy attempts to power things that turn/rebuke undead can power. So you can take Divine feats but can't use them for instance. Bleh. Dragonwrought = not fun. Maybe I'm just not using it right? It seems to be mostly a defensive feat, which means it is useful only when something tries to use an X Person spell (such as Charm Person) or put you to sleep or paralyze you. I'm not saying the feat is bad, just that it comes up seldom and purely defensively. Dragon Wings = not fun. Okay, so I had fun the one time it came up, gliding over horribly difficult terrain off the back of a horse to reach a PC and spont. Bull's Strength. However, the mods rarely assume PCs have gliding, let alone flight, and so most maps are designed to yield little benefit from it. When I get Improved Dragon Wings it might pay off more often? AC = fun. I started my first session at 22 AC. (heavy wooden shield, chain shirt, 18 dex, small, nat armor.) My frail little kobold was actually intensionally trying to make a target of herself in several APL 2 mods to protect the lower AC front liners from getting creamed. I wanted to use my Dragonwrought feat to protect me from certain undead but couldn't because I couldn't, for the life of me, get hit by them. Nightwatch = TBD. I am happy to have gotten enough affiliation points to get the uniform, which I find a key role-playing element for this character. I walk around openly as a proud scaly defender of Greyhawk who hasn't quite caught on that the extra gold she pays to get by the guards isn't actually a legal tax.
copperwyrmling 02-06-08, 01:28 AM	Online play! Your kobold! My kobold! Now! Hmmm... more potential worshippers for the cult of Azrien! :evillaugh (off-topic details in spoiler block ;) ) I'll GM for you, if you find a mod :) I was planning a kobold warmage, right up until the announcement of the end of LG, when I lost interest in making new PCs. The high Dex, natural armor, small size and ability to wear light armor gets you pretty good AC from the start, the once/day spell-like ability can give a bit more versatility, and access to Practical Metamagic is fantastic for a warmage (racial +2 Dex and +1 to attacks from small size is also pretty good for all your ranged-touch spells). Also, I just wanted to play a little pyromaniac kobold who could shoot fire arrows (or equivalent). Fighting hordes of respawing Kobold Commandos in Baldur's Gate left me with an enduring respect for kobolds with fire arrows ;) Sorcerer should work fine too, for all the same reasons. Azrien Gender: f Rank: The Madhouse Said I Was A Goddess! Areas of concern/portfolio: Non-evil kobolds (other usually evil races get non-evil gods! It's not fair there's only one specifically kobold god and he's Lawful Evil!), rebellion, sorcery, dreams Titles: The Dreamer, Protector of Kobolds, the Peacemaker Holy symbol: Five-pointed star with a swirl of colors at the center Alignment: CG Origin of worship: Wishful thinking? I mean kobolds. Well, a kobold, anyway... Core worshippers: KOBOLDS! Common worshippers: anyone else who can be persuaded to join Uncommon worshippers: anyone who didn't dump Wisdom Favored weapon: shortspear Weapon of the deity spell: +1 spell storing shortspear Domains: Chaos, Dream, Good, Magic (not that she's figured out how to grant spells yet, except by Limited Wishing for Imbue With Spell Ability, but she's working on it!)
Tonus 02-06-08, 02:02 PM	I'm having a blast with my kobold beguiler. Of course, only *he* knows he's a kobold beguiler. Usually he masquerades as a halfling baker from Greyhawk, though in the Pale he has become a Pholtan evangelist and faith healer (accomplished via a healing belt.) The baker has gone undercover into the Pomarj a couple of times -- he has a really *good* kobold disguise. :P
Hariman 02-06-08, 10:04 PM	Gah! I forgot the Warmage! Copperwyrmling has a great point because Kobold Warmages can use Practical Metamagic just as much as a sorcerer. AND Warmages are the only class that get the Sudden Feats as part of their progression. Definitely a good blaster option. Istaran: We must think alike. My Kobold has the Strength and Magic Domains as well. Are you going to take levels in Singer of Concordance and take the Travel Domain too?
Koushiro 02-07-08, 06:37 AM	Well that all helps out a lot. I've got so many ideas racing around in my head that I just can't pin down the one to throw at Greyhawk. Part of me was getting really excited about going for a Bard, just to try it out and get all of the skills I like to have taken care off, eventually making it to the point where she can talk her way out of being killed more then not. The other idea I had was to play upon being a weaker race and playing a Healer/Singer of Concordance. Take spontanious healing and get a domain from the PrC, sounded interesting to met at least. The fighter/barbarian route though...tempting too. Go Pious Templar of Io or something silly. Maybe Cavalier for Ranger... What spells did you all pick for the Rite of Passage?
Reylance 02-07-08, 03:28 PM	I decided I really wanted skill points, so I eschewed the normal Charisma-based caster and created a rogue/wizard. If the campaign weren't ending, I'd eventually get unseen seer, arcane trickster, and spellwarped sniper. Currently, I'm primarily a rogue who occasionally casts 3d8+1d6 lesser orbs of acid (sneak attack and arcanists' gloves). Kobold Rogue 1, then Wizard 3, then Rogue 2, then Unseen Seer 2.
Istaran 02-08-08, 02:47 PM	Istaran: We must think alike. My Kobold has the Strength and Magic Domains as well. Are you going to take levels in Singer of Concordance and take the Travel Domain too? Absolutely. However, my entrance will be delayed because I have 8 int and had to pay for speak(common). I stared long and hard at the option of taking Open Mind to get into it sooner, but I just couldn't get myself to give up a precious feat slot for that. I like my wings too much, even if they're barely ever useful. We dragons have to have wings, it's just not right otherwise. :P
Hariman 02-08-08, 08:24 PM	Absolutely. However, my entrance will be delayed because I have 8 int and had to pay for speak(common). I stared long and hard at the option of taking Open Mind to get into it sooner, but I just couldn't get myself to give up a precious feat slot for that. I like my wings too much, even if they're barely ever useful. We dragons have to have wings, it's just not right otherwise. :P Oh. My Golden Dragonwrought Kobold Jynx has a 10 int, so he had the skill points to spend on both knowledge religion and Speak Language. He'll end up wearing heavy armor, so he's not getting the wings. I'm probably going to give him Craft Wondrous Item to craft all of those happy little goodies he wants. The hardest choice will be Periapt of Wisdom or Amulet of Health.
Koushiro 03-03-08, 05:01 AM	I know it's probably a little suboptimal and it'll probably never make it to retirement, but the plan for my kobold is pretty straight forward as it stands. Right now she's sitting at bard 1/dragon blooded sorcerer 1. She picked up dragon wrought with silver heritage and thanks to the racial substitution sorcerer level picked up dragonic heritage for free. So from there it's back to bard until I qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist and then into Sublime Cord. I really like the idea of how it works together nicely, and I think the bonuses from the single level of sorcerer pay off with what you get from the dragon blooded part of it. Feat wise I'm not sure about just yet, wings would be nice to have cosmetically but the rules supporting them just make them sound like a hassle. Plus with Fochlucan Lyrist I can just grab fly as a third level bard spell, which for most uses in LG is more then good enough. I could use some tips and suggestions on what to do with my feats and which spells people find are working for them in this kind of a build, if you all wouldn't mind giving me some feedback? I'm thinking more of the draconic feats seeing as I meet the requirements and they only want you to give up arcane spell slots, not specifically sorcerer slots. Stats would be STR 10, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 14
kjenks 03-03-08, 11:16 AM	My kobold is a racial-sub sorcerer. He has Draconic Heritage (instead of a familiar) and Draconic Breath as his level 1 feats. He rides a dog so he can ride up, spit out a line of acid, then ride back somewhere safe, all in the same round. This works out really well for most situations. I can usually manage to line up two or more opponents each round. Since the campaign ends soon and I don't play him often, I'm only really planning out his future until level 6.
Maesto 03-03-08, 12:21 PM	My kobold is a racial-sub sorcerer. He has Draconic Heritage (instead of a familiar) and Draconic Breath as his level 1 feats. He rides a dog so he can ride up, spit out a line of acid, then ride back somewhere safe, all in the same round. This works out really well for most situations. I can usually manage to line up two or more opponents each round. Since the campaign ends soon and I don't play him often, I'm only really planning out his future until level 6. Ken, can you point out to me the "ride, breathe, ride" rules? It may just be my memory (or bad reading), but I can only find/recall ride/shoot/ride and ride/cast spell/ride in the mounted combat rules. The generic ride/attack/ride requires mounted combat, but even that doesn't allow for ride/breathe/ride.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-03-08, 12:44 PM	Ken, can you point out to me the "ride, breathe, ride" rules? It may just be my memory (or bad reading), but I can only find/recall ride/shoot/ride and ride/cast spell/ride in the mounted combat rules. The generic ride/attack/ride requires mounted combat, but even that doesn't allow for ride/breathe/ride. Well it's kind of a fuzzy area, but since he's riding, his mount can double move and he can still take a standard action. So his mount moves using its move action, he breathes using his standard action, then mount moves again using it's standard action. No different then riding a mount up to an enemy, you attacking, then riding mount away (except in this case you'll probably provoke an AOO unless you outreach your enemy). It's not explicitly allowed, but doable just by virtue of the actions available between the mount and rider.
kjenks 03-03-08, 10:55 PM	Jay has it right, though I don't think it's all that fuzzy. PH, page 157, specifically allows you to be "Casting Spells while Mounted" including casting a spell in the middle of a double move, or ride-cast-ride. Since the Draconic Breath feat is a substitute for spellcasting, I'm pretty sure the rule covers the "ride-breath-ride" situation, too. And there's no Concentration check required for Draconic Breath.