Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vanadium 06-07-07, 12:51 PM	Okay, I'm thinking that one of my next characters, maybe for Greyhawk Ruins, will be a Druid. This is partially spurredd by the fact that locally I've only met one guy with a Druid, and they seem to have a stigma about them that they are bad, of all things. That, and the only Druid I've played was in a horrible home campaign, which gave me no feel for the class at all. However, I am unsure what to play for a Druid. A while back, I figured a good Druid would be a Ken Jenks-esque mounted Druid, but I was also thinking a classic, pure Druid has been tried and true for years as is. As I see it, these are the two builds I have bouncing around. Wildshaper: Probably a 12/14/14/10/16/8 array, Human Druid all the way, feats as such: 1. Improved Unnarmed Strike, Improved Grapple 3. ??? 6. Natural Spell (Profit) Not sure beyond that. Overall goal was to be as balanced as possible, full casting, full companion (which would tank with me), full wildshape, so full Druid. With the feats, I'd be focused on the grapple, with some spell backup. Mounted 14/12/14/10/16/8 1. Druid 1: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack 2. Fighter 1: Spirited Charge 3. Druid 2: Power Attack 6. Druid 5: Something, would be retrained into Improved Bull Rush later 9. Druid 8: Shock Trooper, having retrained 6 Beyond that, I'd probably pick up Lion's Charge as a feat to get reliable pounces. Animal companion serves as mount and little else. Of course, this runs into the problem of me being a medium character with a large mount, but from level 9 on, I should be able to adopt the form of a Dire Lion or better, so my feats aren't wasted if I'm in confined areas. So, I'm a little torn between these two. The Wildshaper is a classic verstile Druid, and the charger has more focus (towards damage), but I'm unsure which would be better for Living Greyhawk play. I'm thinking versatility is the best option here, but I'd like to know what others think.
bitznarf 06-07-07, 12:53 PM	There is a 3rd variant: the summoning focused Druid who takes SF (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning. At some point metamagic school focus (Conjuration) and Rapid Spell would probably make it into your feat least along with Natural Spell.
kjenks 06-07-07, 01:41 PM	I've identified at least seven druid themes. Wild Shape fighter - This type of druid gets in there and mixes it up in animal shape. Monk levels and the Natural Spell feat are great for these guys. The LG campaign's recent change to Polymorph and Wild Shape and the loss of Master of Many Forms make this type much less powerful than they used to be, but they are still more powerful than many other characters. http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/lgchardiscussion/message/19577 Summoner - The summoner fights by proxy, using his critters to attack, to be targets/speed bumps, and to defend. My level 5 Bright Lands druid has Augment Summoning. He can cast Summon Desert Ally spells in addition to the usual Summon Nature's Ally and the yummy cheese that is Summon Dire Hawk. His "herd of cats" spell is lots of fun: Summon Desert Ally III with Augment Summoning, bringing 2-5 servals with +8 Str to the fight. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=843933 Animal companion with druid cohort - This type of druid also fights by proxy, using his animal companion as a tank and casting healing, buff or summoning spells to help the critter. This type of druid often takes Arcane Hierophant and/or Beastmaster levels and selects the (LG limited) Natural Bond feat. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=849217 Mounted combat - Druids have ridable animal companions and both Ride and Handle Animal as class skills. Since the animal companion advances with the druid, it probably won't be killed in the first hit, which is the common fate of warhorses and riding dogs at mid-to-high APLs. Mounted lance charges are the mounted druid's forte, but mounted archery is a good backup. Stone plate armor (Races of Stone) and hide shields (Sandstorm) are now Open access, giving the mounted druid some mighty fine armor. The build here is often fighter 1/druid 14, but I see a lot of advantages in the Hospitalier prestige class instead of fighter 1 for lance proficiency and a bonus feat. LG now has Open access to riding straps and the nifty masterwork saddle, giving bonuses to Ride checks. If you can find access to Riding Boots (DMG2, 12k), you can get a free Ride-by Attack feat. My half-orc druid 2/fighter 1 rides a heavy horse animal companion (for now; dire bat later) and wields a mean lance. Using Share Spells with the Beast Claws spell turns the heavy horse's secondary natural weapon hooves into primary natural weapon claws for 1 hour/level. http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/lgchardiscussion/message/18630 Archer druid - It's all about the bow. This type of druid often includes ranger or fighter levels. Riding a dire bat animal companion makes an excellent archery platform; you can hover over the battlefield and shoot with impunity, most of the time. Spot and Listen are class skills, and the Listening Lorecall spell gives blindsense and blindsight, so these guys can see and shoot almost anything. Blaster druid - This type of druid casts spells that inflict damage on the enemy. Druids have a pretty good selection of damage spells, including Arc of Lightning, Flame Strike and even the lowly Produce Flame. My deep halfling druid uses Produce Flame with metamagic feats and rods (Empower, Extend, Energy Sub (Acid), and Quicken as soon as I can get back to Geoff to pick up my regional access rod). http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832733 Face druid - Diplomacy is a class skill for druids and they can do wonders with Wild Empathy. Tank druid - A Gnome gnome with Titan Fighting (RS), and Elephant's Hide (CD) and Heavy Armor Proficiency makes a mighty fine tank, using Flame Blade for melee. Really high AC, pretty good damage, almost never misses, and is a full-caster druid. http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/LG_Druids/message/2853 Many druids mix these themes together in interesting ways. The new Retraining rules allow a druid to start out with one theme and retrain to another later on. For Greyhawk Ruins, I wouldn't go for a mounted character. It's likely to be a dungeon crawl, and mounts don't do so well with tight corridors, confined spaces, listen-then-bash-the-door scenarios, rope ladders, rickety bridges, combats against oozes, traps and other things you're likely to see in a classic dungeon crawl. I'd think about a summoner. A human could have Spell Focus (Conj) and Augment Summoning from the start.
UMiskatonic 06-07-07, 02:06 PM	Keep in mind that the criticism of most druids is based on the druid -player- and not the druid character. Summoning and wildshaping druids have the potential to be the worst offenders. If you go with either of these plans, BE PREPARED. Seriously, there are few players I avoid more than the druid who says "I wildshape into something, hold on..." and then begins flipping leisurely through the Monster Manual looking for ideas. Or, the guy who says "I don't know the AC of my summoned creatures, can I borrow a monster manual. Oh wait, I have to add in augment summoning feat, hold on..." There is NO reason not to have all of this done ahead of time. The LG druids list is a fantastic resource, most of it's already done for you. Druids as a class are really nice, and even a druid who specializes in one of Ken's strategies will be able to switch pretty easily. An archer druid can still summon, and can still hit you with an arc of lightning. And he's right about mounted combat. Avoid this in the Ruins, it's going to fail more than it succeeds.
solbergb 06-07-07, 05:08 PM	Don't wildshape without the statblocks ready Your companion statblock is as important as yours Dont' summon without the statblocks ready. In higher levels, also have the statblocks for when you animal growth your companion, and everything you just summoned. Druids should be required to play without the monster manual. It would weed out the 50% or so that aren't organized enough to play such a complex character class in convention slot time constraints.
jstorrie 06-07-07, 07:47 PM	I like building around summoning and blasting–MMSF dovetails nicely with Augment Summoning. When Rapid Nature's Ally won't do, Empowered Cometfall might, etc. Lion's Charge pouncers are okay, but by the time that all comes together, you've come into the golden days of a druidic blasting career, so I don't feel it's really worth the investment. Wildshapers took a bit of a hit in the last FAQ but are still decent. In particular, Stone Form Nature's Warrior/Warshapers are quite good.
mowaca 06-07-07, 08:45 PM	Druids should be required to play without the monster manual. It would weed out the 50% or so that aren't organized enough to play such a complex character class in convention slot time constraints. I think the amount of preparation expected of you is probably the biggest negative to playing a druid. I love playing a Druid, but I think you should be ready for this in advance. We play this game for fun - if spending lots of extra time getting ready for every single game isn't going to be fun for you, a Druid probably isn't what you want to play. However, I really don't think you need statblocks for everything - your companion, Wolves, Hippogriffs and Dire Wolves will suffice until you hit level 7. Wild Shape-wise just pick a single creature until you get to 8th level. After 8th level you'll probably have a kick-ass companion, access to tons of good spells, access to all sorts of great shapes and a ton of cash and start wondering why anyone plays anything else. :)
Lupo 06-07-07, 10:18 PM	I think the amount of preparation expected of you is probably the biggest negative to playing a druid. I love playing a Druid, but I think you should be ready for this in advance. We play this game for fun - if spending lots of extra time getting ready for every single game isn't going to be fun for you, a Druid probably isn't what you want to play. However, I really don't think you need statblocks for everything - your companion, Wolves, Hippogriffs and Dire Wolves will suffice until you hit level 7. Wild Shape-wise just pick a single creature until you get to 8th level. After 8th level you'll probably have a kick-ass companion, access to tons of good spells, access to all sorts of great shapes and a ton of cash and start wondering why anyone plays anything else. :) just use the SRD, print out EVERY single animal, elemental and other creature you are likely to summon ore wildshape into, yes it is quite a stack of pages :D use half letter or a4 and print the stats and combat info on front, in case you have it, augmented animal version on backside. it is worth it, saves tons of time ;) ciao martin m.
kjenks 06-07-07, 10:43 PM	The LG_Druids Y! group has a bunch of nice stuff in the Files section: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/LG_Druids/files/Druidic%20Aids/Summoner%27s-R-Us/
kjenks 06-07-07, 10:45 PM	Does anybody have the Dustform versions of the Sandstorm critters for Summon Desert Ally *?
Lupo 06-08-07, 09:27 AM	Does anybody have the Dustform versions of the Sandstorm critters for Summon Desert Ally *? i started but tossed it aside, due to NOT playing a bright desert druid, man, i regret it :rolleyes: i will look where the things are. ciao martin m.
kjenks 06-08-07, 09:39 AM	i started but tossed it aside, due to NOT playing a bright desert druid, man, i regret it :rolleyes: i will look where the things are. ciao martin m. Thanks. Please send to KenJenks@aol.com If you haven't played all of the mods yet, you can still start up a Bright Lands druid. You can start with the Fastplay druid in any Bright Lands mod. With the new retraining rules, you can get rid of those dumb feats in the build, but you can't do anything about the sub-optimal stat choices. And you seem to have four skill points to spend. === nHuman (Flan) Druid 1: CR 1; Medium humanoid; HD 1d8+1; hp 9; Init +0, Spd 30 ft.; AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 12; Base Atk +0; Grp +0; Atk +0 melee (1d6/18-20, scimitar), +0 melee (1d4/19-20, dagger), +0 melee (1d8/x3, spear) or +0 ranged (1d8/x3, spear); Full Atk +0 melee (1d6/18-20, scimitar), +0 melee (1d4/19-20, dagger), +0 melee (1d8/x3, spear) or +0 ranged (1d8/x3, spear); SA spells; SQ animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy; AL NG; SV Fort +5, Ref +0, Will +5; Str 10, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12. Skills and Feats: Concentration +5, Handle Animal +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Ride +4, Spellcraft +5, Survival +7; Great Fortitude, Scorpion’s Resolve*. Languages: Ancient Flan, Common. Druid Spells Prepared: (3/2; base DC = 13 + spell level): 0- create water, cure minor wounds, know direction; 1st- cure light wounds, waste strider*. *New feat or spell from Sandstorm. Possessions: Leather armor, scimitar, dagger, spear, backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, small steel mirror, signal whistle, winter blanket, belt pouch, torch (5), thunderstone, 4 gp, 6 sp, 95 cp. ===
thorinXXX 06-08-07, 11:42 AM	Don't wildshape without the statblocks ready Druids should be required to play without the monster manual. How can a druid be expected not to use the druid's handbook?:D
Howie23 06-08-07, 12:09 PM	Thanks. Please send to KenJenks@aol.com If you haven't played all of the mods yet, you can still start up a Bright Lands druid. You can start with the Fastplay druid in any Bright Lands mod. With the new retraining rules, you can get rid of those dumb feats in the build, but you can't do anything about the sub-optimal stat choices. And you seem to have four skill points to spend. With plans to retire the PC I've been playing the BS series with, following a death and two only-due-to-softballing-DM near-deaths, I'm looking at doing this with Beneath. David
solbergb 06-08-07, 12:12 PM	. However, I really don't think you need statblocks for everything - your companion, Wolves, Hippogriffs and Dire Wolves will suffice until you hit level 7. Wild Shape-wise just pick a single creature until you get to 8th level. I meant "you need statblocks for anything you intend to summon", not for every possibility. You need lion and dire bat on that list :)
Howie23 06-08-07, 12:14 PM	LG now has Open access to riding straps and the nifty masterwork saddle, giving bonuses to Ride checks. Does this show up via one of the tables? I've missed this. David
kjenks 06-08-07, 02:09 PM	LG Open Items List: http://members.aol.com/kenjenks/lg/
Howie23 06-08-07, 02:37 PM	LG Open Items List: http://members.aol.com/kenjenks/lg/ Riding straps are there with a page reference, but I don't see a tie in to Appendix 4 to make it open. The text is in green. The key refers this to DC and LGCS clarification, but there is no source. Mwk saddle doesn't appear in the document at all that I can find. David
GreatSiron 06-08-07, 03:02 PM	I looked at the wildshape document on LG Druids, but it had several creatures with more than 15 hit dice listed. I thought druids were limited to forms with hit dice equal to or less than their lvl? Is there a feat that increases this by limit by 3? (Since 18 hit dice was the highest listed). Also, what are some good forms for a natural spell summoning druid?
kjenks 06-08-07, 03:14 PM	Riding straps are there with a page reference, but I don't see a tie in to Appendix 4 to make it open. The text is in green. The key refers this to DC and LGCS clarification, but there is no source. Mwk saddle doesn't appear in the document at all that I can find. David Yes, Riding Straps are indeed Open. They're on Table 7-2: Armor and Shields, page 158 of Races of Stone. That table is Open, per LGCS 597 v7.5, page 26. Alas, the masterwork saddle is NOT Open. I mis-remembered. It's in Table 7-4: Miscellaneous Gear, and the LGCS does not give us access to that table.
Howie23 06-08-07, 03:34 PM	Yes, Riding Straps are indeed Open. They're on Table 7-2: Armor and Shields, page 158 of Races of Stone. That table is Open, per LGCS 597 v7.5, page 26. Ok..I'm blind...didn't see it on the table, and thought I saw it on 7-4. Thanks for taking the time. David
Sieylianna 06-08-07, 06:54 PM	I looked at the wildshape document on LG Druids, but it had several creatures with more than 15 hit dice listed. I thought druids were limited to forms with hit dice equal to or less than their lvl? Is there a feat that increases this by limit by 3? (Since 18 hit dice was the highest listed). The retirement level used to be 18. Ed
Vanadium 06-09-07, 08:54 PM	Thanks. Please send to KenJenks@aol.com If you haven't played all of the mods yet, you can still start up a Bright Lands druid. You can start with the Fastplay druid in any Bright Lands mod. With the new retraining rules, you can get rid of those dumb feats in the build, but you can't do anything about the sub-optimal stat choices. And you seem to have four skill points to spend. Okay, so I've been mulling over some things with this build, and I'm thinking I might want to do the summon route. I think I'd summon enough without Augment, so I figured why not just add to something I'm already doing? If I take the Fast Play, I get Dustforms, which would be just as good as me in a grapple, right? That, and all the nifty Sandstorm spells make the retrain costs and poor stats bearable, in my mind. Really, the only flaw I see in the build thusfar is that I do not yet own Sandstorm so I am unsure of just what the Waste Druid does. I assume it is a substitution level affair, meaning that if I wanted to do it with the Fast Play its a simple matter of retraining, correct? Does it do anything really special? I heard it did something with Sandstorm specific animal companions, but that's all I heard. For a build, I'm thinking I'd do pure Druid, something like Focus and Augment level 1, either Rapid or CWI at three, Natural Spell at 6, and Metamagic School Focus at 9, probably getting my use out of CWI. Beyond that, doesn't really matter, I guess. I'm thinking I'd maintain Natural Spell because Dire Bats make pretty good summoning platforms, and my role will depend on the number of tanks we have at table. Have a few, summons mostly, not so many, then I summon and enter the fray.
kjenks 06-09-07, 09:22 PM	Forget Natural Spell. It's over-rated. Summoners need their feats for other things, like Spell Focus (Conj), Augment Summoning, Rapid Spell, Metamagic School Focus, Quicken Spell. Just ride your Dire Bat animal companion -- it makes a dandy summoning platform. Dustform + Augment Summoning = extra goodness.
mowaca 06-10-07, 12:33 AM	I meant "you need statblocks for anything you intend to summon", not for every possibility. You need lion and dire bat on that list :) I was just giving a suggestion for people who just want a limited number of pages to print from the SRD, with rules that are simple to learn. Both are excellent choices. :)
Sieylianna 06-10-07, 11:45 AM	Forget Natural Spell. It's over-rated. Summoners need their feats for other things, like Spell Focus (Conj), Augment Summoning, Rapid Spell, Metamagic School Focus, Quicken Spell. Just ride your Dire Bat animal companion -- it makes a dandy summoning platform. Natural spells isn't overrated, but the nerfing of wild shape has made it very dangerous to wild shape in potential combat situations. So it's no longer the best 6th level feat for every druid. Ed
Mommy was an Orc 06-10-07, 01:07 PM	Natural spells isn't overrated, but the nerfing of wild shape has made it very dangerous to wild shape in potential combat situations. So it's no longer the best 6th level feat for every druid. Ed Even still, for Summoners, it really isn't that effective of a feat choice now, even if wild shape followed the old rules. With the change in item enchantment rules and the new feats, there just aren't enough feats for it. There are 4 drop dead essential Summoner feats(Spell Focus(Conj), Augment Summoning, Rapid Spell, and Metamagic School Focus), CWI is a feat most Druids should want as soon as possible, and that means either leaving one of those 5 feats until 12th(as a human no less) or delaying Natural Spell until 12th. At which point, there are other feats which are a lot more attractive.
Vanadium 06-10-07, 06:25 PM	Forget Natural Spell. It's over-rated. Summoners need their feats for other things, like Spell Focus (Conj), Augment Summoning, Rapid Spell, Metamagic School Focus, Quicken Spell. My rationale for taking Natural Spell was so I could act as a secondary tank if I was at a table where they needed one. I realize now that summons probably are all the extra tanking I should need, though. That, and I might have a melee companion taking that role. Needless to say, why spend your most valuable resource for something that might rarely be used in practice? Also, I heard somewhere that Dustform summons have Blindsight, so my tank very well could be a fog spell or something like that if the party consents. Lower hitpoints don't matter when the enemy can't fight back. Just ride your Dire Bat animal companion -- it makes a dandy summoning platform. Dustform + Augment Summoning = extra goodness. Here I have a slight concern, which is that Dire Bats aren't that great in combat, so I'd just be using it as a summoning platform and really nothing else. However, with a stronger melee companion and rapid spell in the mix, do you think that a summoning platform is even needed past like level 7 or so, when better companions open up? Of course, Druids have Spider Climb and Air Walk, so if I absolutely need to summon things in combat and not be disrupted, there's always that option, with both lasting long enough to be a pre-buff of sorts. Since I've never really played a Summoner before, when do my summons start coming into their own? I wouldn't imagine that they would be usable until about level 3 due to durations. Is this the case in practice, or is it even later than that? Current plan: 1,1: Focus, Augment 3: CWI (I'm not shifting, and don't have the slots for good rapid usage yet. That, and the dire bat comes down at level 4. Should this be pushed back to 9 and the others brought forward?) 6: Rapid Spell 9: School Focus
kjenks 06-10-07, 06:31 PM	Dire bats are great in combat. They have a mighty nice bite attack, and if you share Beast Claws (1 hour/level) on them and do the usual things, like Nature's Favor stacking with Greater Magic Fang, they can dish out some pretty good damage. But your summoner should NOT be going toe-to-toe with the bad guys most of the time. That's not your role. Stay out of combat and do your thing. As it advances, give your Dire Bat the Flyby Attack feat and a cross-class rank in Tumble so you two can swoop in, attack, and swoop out again -- if you really need to.
Timlagor 06-10-07, 07:55 PM	I think his idea is that he can send the AC in toe-toe while standing back out of the way without needing a flying mount so keep him safe.
mowaca 06-10-07, 08:47 PM	My rationale for taking Natural Spell was so I could act as a secondary tank if I was at a table where they needed one.... Since I've never really played a Summoner before, when do my summons start coming into their own? I wouldn't imagine that they would be usable until about level 3 due to durations. Is this the case in practice, or is it even later than that? Current plan: 1,1: Focus, Augment 3: CWI (I'm not shifting, and don't have the slots for good rapid usage yet. That, and the dire bat comes down at level 4. Should this be pushed back to 9 and the others brought forward?) 6: Rapid Spell 9: School Focus - If you want to tank, go for it, but that's not your specialty. I use Natural spell so I can fly around and scout while while my Tiger protects the party. - I'd say level 2. Augmented Wolves rock. - The really usefulness of CWI is it allows you to get ahead of the LG wealth curve - most casters turn their excess cash in to pearls of power, which are always useful.
GreatSiron 06-11-07, 01:12 AM	This is my druid's build: High Elf STR: 10 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 12 WIS: 15 CHA: 10 Skills: Concentration (Duh), Handle Animal (drink the potion fluffy), Listen (again, duh), Spot (do you even have to ask), and Survival (upkeep is for suckers). Level Progression: Druid 1: Feat: Spell Focus (Conjuration) Druid 2 Druid 3: Feat: Augmented Summon Druid 4: Stat: WIS Druid 5 Druid 6: Feat: CWI Druid 7 Druid 8: Stat WIS Druid 9: Feat: Natural Spell Druid 10 Druid 11 Druid 12: Feat: Extend Spell Stat: WIS Druid 13 Druid 14 Druid 15 Feat :Rapid Spell I decided against taking Metamagic school Focus for one reason: I don't have the book it comes from, and no one I play with does either. And I don't use Natural Spell for tankiness, i use it for mobility. As for as AC goes, I got access to a suit of wildwood armor, as well as the Wild armor enhancement, so I can choose a more moblie form, like Dire Bat. (Does medium armor prevent flight? And do armor check peneties apply to wild armor while wildshaped?") My plan for wildshaping is to do it outside combat, when I can expect no social interatction to take place, (dungeon crawl, wilderness) using the dire bat form. I cast Owl's wisdom, remove amulet, wildshape, put the amulet back on.
Lupo 06-11-07, 06:32 AM	My rationale for taking Natural Spell was so I could act as a secondary tank if I was at a table where they needed one. I realize now that summons probably are all the extra tanking I should need, though. That, and I might have a melee companion taking that role. Needless to say, why spend your most valuable resource for something that might rarely be used in practice? Also, I heard somewhere that Dustform summons have Blindsight, so my tank very well could be a fog spell or something like that if the party consents. Lower hitpoints don't matter when the enemy can't fight back. i have posted a compilation of the MM dustform critters for summon desert ally over at the yahoo lg-druid group, and will have it on my homepage soon as well as on ken jenks'. ken jenks' wonderful resort is found at: http://members.aol.com/kenjenks/lg/ my homepage is found at: http://www-stud.uni-essen.de/~sl1506/web-lg/lg-index.htm with some time or some support from others, i will include the sandstorm critters as soon as i can. Here I have a slight concern, which is that Dire Bats aren't that great in combat, so I'd just be using it as a summoning platform and really nothing else. However, with a stronger melee companion and rapid spell in the mix, do you think that a summoning platform is even needed past like level 7 or so, when better companions open up? dire bats are not dealing the most damage BUT due to their high dex their armor class is really, really nice, give them leather barding (masterwork) and they start with AC 22, with sharkskin barding the even get up to AC 23 and have nice armor spikes. not to bad with a druid level 4. Of course, Druids have Spider Climb and Air Walk, so if I absolutely need to summon things in combat and not be disrupted, there's always that option, with both lasting long enough to be a pre-buff of sorts. sitting on a dire bat some 50 to 100 ft away in the air and pest the foes with either summoned critters or simple produce flames is an excellent option, especially as one still can swoop in with a flame blade AND the dire bat attack. and even archer specialists foes have some problems hitting armor classes from 24 to 30 at APL 4 to 8. Since I've never really played a Summoner before, when do my summons start coming into their own? I wouldn't imagine that they would be usable until about level 3 due to durations. Is this the case in practice, or is it even later than that? even at level 1, with only one round you might get some use from a summoned critter, but definitely when they are there three or more rounds they will be an important part of the party's frontline. ciao martin m.
solbergb 06-11-07, 02:06 PM	Dire bats are great in combat. I wouldn't go that far, but what they are is a fantastic spell platform 22 dex = high initiative AND high armor class. They hover. they're even moderately stealthy if you're into that. They don't do much damage in a fight, but they can finish off a cripple and survive a counterattack if they fail. They can cork ok, especialy if you have mage armor or barding and barkskin running.
Genghis Cohen 06-11-07, 04:28 PM	Natural spells isn't overrated, but the nerfing of wild shape has made it very dangerous to wild shape in potential combat situations. So it's no longer the best 6th level feat for every druid. EdNatural Spell will become more attractive if and when Wilding Clasps from the MIC find their way onto ARs. I have a summoning druid who had Natural Spell untill the recent conversion. I rarely wild shaped. With the new polymorph rules, wildshaping means that you lose spells if you wear a periapt of wisdom (hence the need for the wilding clasp.) Since the conversion, I've wild shaped once. A BBEG did some hocus pocus that prevented me from using any divine powers, including casting spells. At that point, losing spells was of little concern, and Natural Spell would have been useless. I might pick it back up at 15th level, but only if I get access to that cloak in Complete Champion that allows wildshaping as a swift action, as well as access to a wilding clasp.
solbergb 06-11-07, 04:31 PM	well, I've seen one AR with wilding clasps (and even got it on my barb/druid pouncekitty!) For a "spell platform" dire bad wildshape, all you need is to prep owl's wisdom and cast it before you change, taking off the periapt of wisdom+cloak of resistance and putting it back on after you shift (as cloaks and necklaces can still support multiple sizes). The primary disadvantage is inability to talk when wildshaped.
ithardin 06-11-07, 04:56 PM	I will admit from the beginning of this post that I am very anti-druid...and for all the reasons heretofore mentioned. I only post so that you remember that there are five other players at the table, each trying to have fun and participate and when you 1st round cast your entangle and then send in your animal companion AND summon another critter, etc, etc it makes it that much less enjoyable for some of us playing with you. Especially at conventions. I have had the following happen: 2 druids at the table, each with an animal companion and a dog. Two rounds into the combat they are each acting for: 1. Themselves 2. Their animal companions 3. Their dogs 4. Their summoned creatures I've actually gone mods where I got two attack rolls out of three full multi-round combats because of this, and had time called on another because of "Druid-lag." My personal fave Druid pet-peeve though is the Druid who has metal barding on his animal. Nice loophole there. Ian
Rerednaw 06-11-07, 05:00 PM	well, I've seen one AR with wilding clasps (and even got it on my barb/druid pouncekitty!) For a "spell platform" dire bad wildshape, all you need is to prep owl's wisdom and cast it before you change, taking off the periapt of wisdom+cloak of resistance and putting it back on after you shift (as cloaks and necklaces can still support multiple sizes). The primary disadvantage is inability to talk when wildshaped. I thought about that tactic. With pre-combat buffing it works. Otherwise it costs you 2 precious rounds in combat. Maybe it's the mods I've played or the region, but most of the time spending all the time wild-shaped is either not possible or desireable. Tight quarters (dungeon crawls, residences), adventures in the city of Greyhawk. So it is situational.
solbergb 06-11-07, 05:10 PM	if you are spending a std action to wildshape in combat instead of spellcasting, you're not understanding how to play a caster-oriented druid. If you are going to take natural spell on a caster-oriented druid, you are going to wildshape before the combat or when you've run out of spells or not at all. The first option takes no actions. The second takes an action that isn't all that valuable as you're out of non-wildshape options anyway (and any "spells lost" due to wisdom drop aren't doing anything for you anyway right now). The third - you had a good reason not to be wildshaped before the fight started. Usually social reasons, or communication reasons (for size, a reduce-animal'd dire bat fits most places). The lack of a superior spell-platform form was the price you paid to use your social skills. Tradeoffs make for interesting characters. One reason I'm happy about getting wilding clasps on my melee-oriented caster is there are good reasons to switch forms in combat (eg, I need to use an adamantine greatsword instead of claw/claw/rake/rake/bite pounce attack for this opponent, or I was being social and human and need to get into my superior combat form while lining up a charge lane). Some combat forms are ineffective in particular fights and you need to shift during the fight to become useful. While that character was built to never need a periapt of wisdom, the amulet of health and cloak of resistance are not items you want to have vanish in a combat if you can help it.
solbergb 06-11-07, 05:16 PM	I don't have a problem with all the druid critters if the player is brisk about getting his turn done. I've seen some people spend more time fumbling the power attack calculations than a well prepared druid player spends resolving his actions. A slow, fumbling druid player though is truly painful to watch. My personal fave Druid pet-peeve though is the Druid who has metal barding on his animal. Nice loophole there. Ian Well, the animal didn't take any bizzare oaths not to wear metal. Why should it be penalized? Most animals can't manage much more than mw studded leather though, due to not being trained to use barding (and with no "trained for war" rules until probably next year, no way to train them to do so). Most druid animal companions have a bit of barding but it is rarely better than what mage armor does.
Cardinal Teplin 06-13-07, 09:56 AM	Meh, it's only a druid problem because druids so often have pets. I've seen exactly the same effect with a ranger with animal companion and training riding dogs, summoner wizards and clerics, and any character with a tan bag of tricks. As with any character, you should know how your combat options work in advance. I fill in a character sheet for myself, another for my animal, and a further character sheets for commonly summoned creatures, or wildshape forms. You get used to it eventually, just as wizards get used to their spells. I'm big fan of changing during combat, and would recommend the fast wild shape feat if you intend to do this. You can then take either natural spell, or extra wildshape, and shift back and forth when you want to cast spells. It also means that, by blowing two wildshapes in a round, you can shift twice, which ends up being a fair amount of recovered hp, and particularly useful if you don't use wildshape for anything else. Of course my druid specialises in tanking, so this kind of thing may not be what you are looking for.
boolean 06-14-07, 01:40 AM	started. Usually social reasons, or communication reasons (for size, a reduce-animal'd dire bat fits most places). With the errata to base Wild Shape on Alternate Form, a wild shaped druid keeps his original type. This means that you cannot WS into a dire bat and then use Reduce Animal to become medium. You can use Reduce Person instead, assuming the original form is a humanoid. This has two drawbacks. The duration is much shorter, and it's not a druid spell, so you will usually need someone else to cast it for you.
kjenks 06-14-07, 08:37 AM	With the errata to base Wild Shape on Alternate Form, a wild shaped druid keeps his original type. This means that you cannot WS into a dire bat and then use Reduce Animal to become medium. You can use Reduce Person instead, assuming the original form is a humanoid. This has two drawbacks. The duration is much shorter, and it's not a druid spell, so you will usually need someone else to cast it for you. One of my druids found Armbands of Reduction (A&EG). Long duration, affects all types. Using Share Spells with a Potion of Reduce Person works, too, but it's expensive and brief.
lseelba 06-18-07, 02:57 AM	I will admit from the beginning of this post that I am very anti-druid...and for all the reasons heretofore mentioned. I only post so that you remember that there are five other players at the table, each trying to have fun and participate and when you 1st round cast your entangle and then send in your animal companion AND summon another critter, etc, etc it makes it that much less enjoyable for some of us playing with you. Especially at conventions. I have had the following happen: 2 druids at the table, each with an animal companion and a dog. Two rounds into the combat they are each acting for: 1. Themselves 2. Their animal companions 3. Their dogs 4. Their summoned creatures I've actually gone mods where I got two attack rolls out of three full multi-round combats because of this, and had time called on another because of "Druid-lag." My personal fave Druid pet-peeve though is the Druid who has metal barding on his animal. Nice loophole there. Ian Unless they burn an Animal Companion feat on Armor Proficency (whatever) the heavier barding isn't that useful. I try to stick with -0 AC Penalty armor personally.
LGMoses 06-19-07, 02:25 AM	yeah, i thought about making a druid recently and had real trouble thinking of a good opening feat other than spell foc: conjuration. Thats the only bad thing about starting dnd as a fighter. you'll always feel like you haven't got enuff feats when you play something else.... :(