Lightning Mace character, can anything make it really good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Lightning Mace character, can anything make it really good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eric Anondson
03-17-07, 01:24 PM I'm interested in whether a character who choses Lightning Mace can be made really effective.

Say a character starts out...

Str 15
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 13
Cha 7

AL: Lawful Neutral (a St. Cuthbert devotee)

1st Fighter 1, Combat Reflexes [human], Weapon Focus [fighter bonus], Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd Fighter 2 Lightning Mace [fighter bonus]

I was thinking of building it out further like thus:

3rd Fighter 3, Combat Focus
4th Fighter 4, Weapon Specialization (light mace) [fighter bonus], +1 Str
5th Fighter 5
6th Fighter 6, Imp. 2-Weapon Fighting, Combat Stability [fighter bonus]
7th Fighter 7
8th Fighter 8, G. W. Focus (light mace) [fighter bonus], +1 Str
9th Fighter 9, Melee Mastery (bludgeon)
10th Fighter 10, Combat Vigor [fighter bonus]
11th Fighter 11
12th Fighter 12, Two-Weapon Rend, G. W. Specialization (light mace) [fighter bonus], +1 Wis
13th Fighter 13
14th Fighter 14, [**] G. 2-Weapon Fighting [fighter bonus]
15th ?, ? (maybe Close-Quarters Fighting?)

Would purchased +2 Dex gloves for Dex 17.
[**] Would have purchased +4 Dex gloves for Dex 19.

Is there a better future for a Lightning Mace theme character?
Mommy was an Orc
03-17-07, 02:05 PM The real problem with Lightning Mace is that in many ways, what it represents an extra attack every 20 swings at a cost of 2 feats. Every 10 swings if you invest another feat in it(Improved Critical)

When you start off with quite possibly the worst weapon in the book, you need a lot of bonus damage to make up for it.

A light 1d6 weapon with a threat range of x2? Can't Power Attack with it and +6 damage from feats?
ShinAkuma2
03-17-07, 02:53 PM Just roll 20s every time. Duh!

But seriously, look at Better Lucky Than Good from Complete Scoundrel. You'll need some luck feats to get in, but it'll turn a nat 1 into a nat 20. That's another chance for a crit chain!
clik_ml
03-17-07, 09:54 PM Think of that extra attack on a crit as simply turning the crit multiplier from x2 to x3... a little different since it can still miss but it includes extra bonus damage... but it balances out to essentially X2->X3 crit range.

So with that in mind, no. Nothing can really make it a good feat selection since just about any martial weapon is still better without costing the extra feats.
Eric Anondson
03-17-07, 10:23 PM I think one thing that might make up for a light mace's poor showing, and Lightning Mace's disappointing benefit would simply be getting a nice rod. Such as combinations of rod of withering or rod of thunder and lightning.

Hmm... That still requires access.
jstorrie
03-18-07, 04:05 AM You need to look at which situations would actually cause Lightning Mace bonus attacks to be better than just another crit multiplier - namely, attacks that deal bonus dice. What's the easiest bonus die to acquire, and the one that works best with two-weapon fighting? Well, sneak attack, right? So we need to look at maximizing attacks per round and getting sneak attack progression. You could consider -

Human
1 Rogue Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes
2 Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse
3 Fighter Lightning Mace, Weapon Focus: Light Mace
4 Rogue
5 Rogue
6 Swashbuckler Daring Outlaw
7 Fighter Deadly Defense
8+ Swashbuckler

or something along those lines, aiming to get as many bonus dice as possible. If you have xd6 sneak attack, a bonus attack becomes significantly much better than just a one higher crit modifier. Other possible feats could be Better Lucky Than Good, Deadly Defense, Head Shot, Telling Blow, ITWF/GTWF or Persistent Attacker. Not a super-optimal character by any means but likely the best you can do with Lightning Mace.
cycloptic_squirrel
03-18-07, 04:30 AM OK, I'll give it a shot.
I pretty much stole the layout from the threads of Copper Wyrmling and Alpha Nerd. And damn you jstorrie, posting while I'm tweaking! :P

Human (for the feat and skills)
Str 12 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 12

1: Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes
2: Sorcerer 1 - 1st level spells (spells known: critical strike, shield)
3: Fighter 1 - Weapon Focus: Light Mace, Lightning Mace
4: Rogue 1 - bump Dex 17 (+1d6 sneak) (use all skills to qualify for prereqs)
5: Swashbuckler 2 - Grace +1 (burn all skill points as cross-class for prereqs)
6: Unseen Seer 1 - Daring Outlaw (+3d6 sneak) (spells known: golem strike)
7: Unseen Seer 2 - Silent Spell (adv. learning: gravestrike)
8: Spellsword 1 - 2nd level spells, bump Dex 18 (sonic weapon)
9: Unseen Seer 3 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (spells known: blades of flame, false life)
10: Rouge 2 - evasion
11: Fighter 2 - Improved Critical (retrain critical strike into something useful)
12: Unseen Seer 4 - Arcane Strike, 3rd level spells, bump Dex 19 (+4d6 sneak) (spells known: blink)
13: Swashbuckler 3 - Int bonus to hits (+5d6 sneak)
14: Fighter 3
15: Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization: Light Mace, W. Mastery: Bludgeoning

End result: +12 BAB, +5d6 sneak attack, 3rd level spells
You're primarily a scout/trapfinder, but also a decent combat rogue and can fill a buffing role if you have some consumables.

Early on, use a wand of enlarge person to force AoOs. Retrain shield once you get an animated shield. For your second level spells you have a difficult decision; I'd take sonic weapon; you have enough castings that you can use it with abandon when it looks like a fight is looming. I'd go with false life for the second, hp are always good. Swift fly and mirror image are also considerations.
Improved Critical will really take pressure off your first level slots and swift actions, allowing for more blades of fire.

Pump up the energy/sacred/holy enhancements on your maces. Like an archer with bows, have 3-4 maces with different enhancements for different situations. If you have access, grab bane:elementals/plants, they'll give you trouble.

I thought about Diviner instead of sorcerer, but there's such a huge constraint on your first level spells, you need the versatility. CWI didn't seem too great at this point due to the massive amount of wands/scrolls needed, I thought arcane strike would be more useful. You could also sub in swashbuckler for the last two levels and pick up Head Shot.

At the end, assuming some equipment, a flank, and a burned 3rd level spell on arcane strike; your attacks should be in the ballpark of + 30/+30/+27/+25/+22/+20 for 6d6+3d4+12+d6 sonic+ d8 fire + weapon bonus damage (say 2d6?) for a total of ~54 damage a hit (45 for the off-hand).
Beyond fighting defensively, you don't have any worthwile options to reduce your to hit bonus.

Lightning mace should grant an extra attack about every other round. Not great, but every extra attack will get your sneak and energy damage.
In the end, I don't think lightning mace adds much to the build. I think I'd rather save the feat and go wood elf or Combat Expertise.
If I were set on using it though, this build is how I'd do it; get as much bonus die damage as possible, so every extra attack granted is much more significant than the critical itself.
Jay_Ibero_911
03-18-07, 08:13 PM Here's a few other versions:

Race:Human
Alignment:

STR-14 (6)
DEX-16 (10)
CON-14 (6)
INT-14 (6)
WIS-8 (0)
CHA-8 (0)

Lv1(Fighter)Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Light Mace)
Lv2(Fighter)Combat Expertise
Lv3(Fighter)Lightning Mace
Lv4(Fighter)Weapon Specialization, +1 DEX
Lv5(Fighter)
Lv6(Fighter)Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Deadly Defense
Lv7(Fighter)
Lv8(Fighter)Improved Critical, +1 DEX
Lv9(Fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery
Lv10(Fighter)Greater Weapon Focus (Light Mace)
Lv11(Fighter)
Lv12(Fighter)Two-Weapon Rend, Greater Weapon Specialization, +1 DEX
Lv13(Fighter)
Lv14(Rogue)
Lv15(Fighter)Crushing Strike, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Makes the most of such a sad little weapon...And here's a version with a little luck:

Race:Human
Alignment:

STR-14 (6)
DEX-16 (10)
CON-14 (6)
INT-14 (6)
WIS-8 (0)
CHA-8 (0)

Lv1(Fighter)Two-Weapon Fighting, Victor's Luck, Weapon Focus (Light Mace)
Lv2(Fighter)Combat Reflexes
Lv3(Fighter)Lightning Mace
Lv4(Fighter)Weapon Specialization, +1 DEX
Lv5(Fighter)
Lv6(Fighter)Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Unbelievable Luck
Lv7(Fighter)
Lv8(Fighter)Improved Critical, +1 DEX
Lv9(Fighter)Better Lucky Than Good
Lv10(Fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery
Lv11(Fighter)
Lv12(Fighter)Greater Weapon Focus (Light Mace), Greater Weapon Specialization, +1 DEX
Lv13(Fighter)
Lv14(Rogue)
Lv15(Fighter)Crushing Strike, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Yeah...Lightning Mace is just a sub-optimal style. Can pump it up with the right feats though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eric Anondson 03-17-07, 01:24 PM	I'm interested in whether a character who choses Lightning Mace can be made really effective. Say a character starts out... Str 15 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 13 Cha 7 AL: Lawful Neutral (a St. Cuthbert devotee) 1st Fighter 1, Combat Reflexes [human], Weapon Focus [fighter bonus], Two-Weapon Fighting 2nd Fighter 2 Lightning Mace [fighter bonus] I was thinking of building it out further like thus: 3rd Fighter 3, Combat Focus 4th Fighter 4, Weapon Specialization (light mace) [fighter bonus], +1 Str 5th Fighter 5 6th Fighter 6, Imp. 2-Weapon Fighting, Combat Stability [fighter bonus] 7th Fighter 7 8th Fighter 8, G. W. Focus (light mace) [fighter bonus], +1 Str 9th Fighter 9, Melee Mastery (bludgeon) 10th Fighter 10, Combat Vigor [fighter bonus] 11th Fighter 11 12th Fighter 12, Two-Weapon Rend, G. W. Specialization (light mace) [fighter bonus], +1 Wis 13th Fighter 13 14th Fighter 14, [] G. 2-Weapon Fighting [fighter bonus] 15th ?, ? (maybe Close-Quarters Fighting?) Would purchased +2 Dex gloves for Dex 17. [] Would have purchased +4 Dex gloves for Dex 19. Is there a better future for a Lightning Mace theme character?
Mommy was an Orc 03-17-07, 02:05 PM	The real problem with Lightning Mace is that in many ways, what it represents an extra attack every 20 swings at a cost of 2 feats. Every 10 swings if you invest another feat in it(Improved Critical) When you start off with quite possibly the worst weapon in the book, you need a lot of bonus damage to make up for it. A light 1d6 weapon with a threat range of x2? Can't Power Attack with it and +6 damage from feats?
ShinAkuma2 03-17-07, 02:53 PM	Just roll 20s every time. Duh! But seriously, look at Better Lucky Than Good from Complete Scoundrel. You'll need some luck feats to get in, but it'll turn a nat 1 into a nat 20. That's another chance for a crit chain!
clik_ml 03-17-07, 09:54 PM	Think of that extra attack on a crit as simply turning the crit multiplier from x2 to x3... a little different since it can still miss but it includes extra bonus damage... but it balances out to essentially X2->X3 crit range. So with that in mind, no. Nothing can really make it a good feat selection since just about any martial weapon is still better without costing the extra feats.
Eric Anondson 03-17-07, 10:23 PM	I think one thing that might make up for a light mace's poor showing, and Lightning Mace's disappointing benefit would simply be getting a nice rod. Such as combinations of rod of withering or rod of thunder and lightning. Hmm... That still requires access.
jstorrie 03-18-07, 04:05 AM	You need to look at which situations would actually cause Lightning Mace bonus attacks to be better than just another crit multiplier - namely, attacks that deal bonus dice. What's the easiest bonus die to acquire, and the one that works best with two-weapon fighting? Well, sneak attack, right? So we need to look at maximizing attacks per round and getting sneak attack progression. You could consider - Human 1 Rogue Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes 2 Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse 3 Fighter Lightning Mace, Weapon Focus: Light Mace 4 Rogue 5 Rogue 6 Swashbuckler Daring Outlaw 7 Fighter Deadly Defense 8+ Swashbuckler or something along those lines, aiming to get as many bonus dice as possible. If you have xd6 sneak attack, a bonus attack becomes significantly much better than just a one higher crit modifier. Other possible feats could be Better Lucky Than Good, Deadly Defense, Head Shot, Telling Blow, ITWF/GTWF or Persistent Attacker. Not a super-optimal character by any means but likely the best you can do with Lightning Mace.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-18-07, 04:30 AM	OK, I'll give it a shot. I pretty much stole the layout from the threads of Copper Wyrmling and Alpha Nerd. And damn you jstorrie, posting while I'm tweaking! :P Human (for the feat and skills) Str 12 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 12 1: Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes 2: Sorcerer 1 - 1st level spells (spells known: critical strike, shield) 3: Fighter 1 - Weapon Focus: Light Mace, Lightning Mace 4: Rogue 1 - bump Dex 17 (+1d6 sneak) (use all skills to qualify for prereqs) 5: Swashbuckler 2 - Grace +1 (burn all skill points as cross-class for prereqs) 6: Unseen Seer 1 - Daring Outlaw (+3d6 sneak) (spells known: golem strike) 7: Unseen Seer 2 - Silent Spell (adv. learning: gravestrike) 8: Spellsword 1 - 2nd level spells, bump Dex 18 (sonic weapon) 9: Unseen Seer 3 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (spells known: blades of flame, false life) 10: Rouge 2 - evasion 11: Fighter 2 - Improved Critical (retrain critical strike into something useful) 12: Unseen Seer 4 - Arcane Strike, 3rd level spells, bump Dex 19 (+4d6 sneak) (spells known: blink) 13: Swashbuckler 3 - Int bonus to hits (+5d6 sneak) 14: Fighter 3 15: Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization: Light Mace, W. Mastery: Bludgeoning End result: +12 BAB, +5d6 sneak attack, 3rd level spells You're primarily a scout/trapfinder, but also a decent combat rogue and can fill a buffing role if you have some consumables. Early on, use a wand of enlarge person to force AoOs. Retrain shield once you get an animated shield. For your second level spells you have a difficult decision; I'd take sonic weapon; you have enough castings that you can use it with abandon when it looks like a fight is looming. I'd go with false life for the second, hp are always good. Swift fly and mirror image are also considerations. Improved Critical will really take pressure off your first level slots and swift actions, allowing for more blades of fire. Pump up the energy/sacred/holy enhancements on your maces. Like an archer with bows, have 3-4 maces with different enhancements for different situations. If you have access, grab bane:elementals/plants, they'll give you trouble. I thought about Diviner instead of sorcerer, but there's such a huge constraint on your first level spells, you need the versatility. CWI didn't seem too great at this point due to the massive amount of wands/scrolls needed, I thought arcane strike would be more useful. You could also sub in swashbuckler for the last two levels and pick up Head Shot. At the end, assuming some equipment, a flank, and a burned 3rd level spell on arcane strike; your attacks should be in the ballpark of + 30/+30/+27/+25/+22/+20 for 6d6+3d4+12+d6 sonic+ d8 fire + weapon bonus damage (say 2d6?) for a total of ~54 damage a hit (45 for the off-hand). Beyond fighting defensively, you don't have any worthwile options to reduce your to hit bonus. Lightning mace should grant an extra attack about every other round. Not great, but every extra attack will get your sneak and energy damage. In the end, I don't think lightning mace adds much to the build. I think I'd rather save the feat and go wood elf or Combat Expertise. If I were set on using it though, this build is how I'd do it; get as much bonus die damage as possible, so every extra attack granted is much more significant than the critical itself.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-18-07, 08:13 PM	Here's a few other versions: Race:Human Alignment: STR-14 (6) DEX-16 (10) CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-8 (0) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Fighter)Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Light Mace) Lv2(Fighter)Combat Expertise Lv3(Fighter)Lightning Mace Lv4(Fighter)Weapon Specialization, +1 DEX Lv5(Fighter) Lv6(Fighter)Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Deadly Defense Lv7(Fighter) Lv8(Fighter)Improved Critical, +1 DEX Lv9(Fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery Lv10(Fighter)Greater Weapon Focus (Light Mace) Lv11(Fighter) Lv12(Fighter)Two-Weapon Rend, Greater Weapon Specialization, +1 DEX Lv13(Fighter) Lv14(Rogue) Lv15(Fighter)Crushing Strike, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Makes the most of such a sad little weapon...And here's a version with a little luck: Race:Human Alignment: STR-14 (6) DEX-16 (10) CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-8 (0) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Fighter)Two-Weapon Fighting, Victor's Luck, Weapon Focus (Light Mace) Lv2(Fighter)Combat Reflexes Lv3(Fighter)Lightning Mace Lv4(Fighter)Weapon Specialization, +1 DEX Lv5(Fighter) Lv6(Fighter)Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Unbelievable Luck Lv7(Fighter) Lv8(Fighter)Improved Critical, +1 DEX Lv9(Fighter)Better Lucky Than Good Lv10(Fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery Lv11(Fighter) Lv12(Fighter)Greater Weapon Focus (Light Mace), Greater Weapon Specialization, +1 DEX Lv13(Fighter) Lv14(Rogue) Lv15(Fighter)Crushing Strike, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Yeah...Lightning Mace is just a sub-optimal style. Can pump it up with the right feats though.