Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ornsjach 10-09-06, 01:28 PM	I am currently working on a TWFing Fighter but could use some Level by level feat help to maximize the damage potential of the build must have High con and at least a 15 in dex and a decent STR Should be a bastard sword TWF going for the Tempest Prestige class
clik_ml 10-10-06, 01:14 AM	Tempest? Ew. That prestige class really gives diddly squat. It effectively gives a tiny boost for attacking in twf with bigger weapons. You can almost get the same effect via a single feat, and not waste your time with the spring attack chain. I'm going to sub out the entire prestige class with the feat Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (from Complete Adventurer) unless there is some rational reason to not do so. To encourage actually taking the class would be criminal. I apologize for not following that part of the request, but my conscience won't allow it. Anywho, here goes. Human Str 16 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 8 bumps to Dex/Wis/Wis 1Barb/2 Rgr/2 Ftr/1 PiousTemplar(of Kelanen)/1 ExoticWeaponMaster/8 PiousTemplar(of Kelanen) Feats: 1)PowerAttack 1)ExoticWeaponProf(BastardSword) 3R)TWF 3)TrueBeliever 4F)OversizedTWF 5F)WFocus(BastardSword) 6)ExtraRages 9)RecklessRage 9P)WSpecialization(BastardSword) 10P)ImpTWF 12)GreaterTWF etc. At 7th level you can start power attacking at the 2:1 ratio (thanks to uncanny blow from exotic weapon master) with each of your attacks. Your specifications are rather generic though sub-optimal (bastard sword is rather meh, tempest is to be avoided at all costs, dex 15 limits options since TWF can be gained with lower dex via ranger, high con and str are givens). This makes it awfully hard to pin down exactly what you're looking for. If you want to deal lots of TWF damage then look around at the dwarf waraxe TWF builds floating around here (making use of their free exotic prof and ease of access to exotic weapon master), or a wood elf wildrunner twf-machine, or just about any rogue who applies TWF, since sneak attack damage can be obscene when coupled with many attacks.
Timlagor 10-10-06, 07:59 AM	1) Tempest is pretty mediocre 2) Wood Elf is probably a better choice for this if you aren't using Int anyway. 3) BEWARE At many tables Uncanny Blow will not do that for you. A lot of people consider it only to give you 2xStr 2-handed with the other sentence being merely a reminder. 4) Did you look at Dervish? (much better than Tempest) 5) Why Bastard Swords? They aren't really good mechanically so what atracts you?
ornsjach 10-10-06, 02:21 PM	1) Tempest is pretty mediocre 2) Wood Elf is probably a better choice for this if you aren't using Int anyway. 3) BEWARE At many tables Uncanny Blow will not do that for you. A lot of people consider it only to give you 2xStr 2-handed with the other sentence being merely a reminder. 4) Did you look at Dervish? (much better than Tempest) 5) Why Bastard Swords? They aren't really good mechanically so what atracts you? 1) Your right I was fooled by ambidexterity 2) Wood elf is good as is Dwarf 3) I Know look good on paper but you don't get that much use out it 4) Yes and now I am considering it 5) Why Bastard Swords? 1d10 damage would also be carrying a High damage blunt weapon and a high damage piecing weapon and if it can be helped a +4 con modifier please. our DM is BRUTAL taking most fighters down to negative numbers with 2-4 hits in an APL1 mod
kenobi65 10-10-06, 03:53 PM	and if it can be helped a +4 con modifier please. our DM is BRUTAL taking most fighters down to negative numbers with 2-4 hits in an APL1 mod The +4 is dang expensive on your point buy (even moreso if you're not playing dwarf), and all that's buying you is 1 or 2 more HPs at that point. As you also want a high Dex and a High Str, an 18 Con is a luxury.
ornsjach 10-10-06, 04:45 PM	ya I know But I have little choice
ornsjach 10-10-06, 04:48 PM	and if it can be helped a +4 con modifier please. our DM is BRUTAL taking most fighters down to negative numbers with 2-4 hits in an APL1 modand that was with an AC20
Timlagor 10-11-06, 05:34 PM	Sounds like it was just luck (or a brutal mod). 14 Con is generally sufficient. Don't go to 18 unless you have a dwarf because you can't afford to forego the other attributes. I'd spend 6 points on Constitution unless you have a really good reason not to -if you plan to have decent AC (as opposed to an AC-junking Barbarian type) it will be enough. Bastard Sword averages 1 more point of damage than a longsword and it costs a Feat. Weapon Focus and Specialisation are both better and there are plenty of more powerful Feats than those (though Spec is pretty nice if you get it on 5-6 attacks).
Jay_Ibero_911 10-11-06, 10:19 PM	I wound up with a rather bizarre but so far effective dwarven two weapon fighter myself. He is currently level 8, and uses the Anvil of Thunder weapon style feat from CW, and it has been so very useful. His damage output is only average, but getting to repeatedly deny an enemy their action can be a life saver. Here's a variation of what I have: Race:Dwarf Alignment: STR-16 (10) DEX-16 (10) CON-14 (6) +2 INT-8 (0) WIS-10 (2) CHA-8 (0) -2 Lv1(Fighter)Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Warhammmer) Lv2(Fighter)Weapon Focus (Handaxe) Lv3(Fighter)Power Attack Lv4(Fighter)Improved Sunder, +1 Dex Lv5(Fighter) Lv6(Fighter)Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Anvil of Thunder Lv7(Rogue) Lv8(Rogue)+1 Dex Lv9(Rogue)Dual Strike Lv10(Rogue) Lv11(Barbarian) Lv12(Barbarian)+1 Dex, Extra Rage Lv13() Lv14() Lv15()Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Everything after the fighter 6 is at your discretion. The 1st 6 levels are designed to get you the feats you need as fast as possible. The rogue levels are good for skill points, sneak attack, evasion, and uncanny dodge. Barb gets you movement, rage, and improved uncanny dodge. Being Unflankable can be very nice. Dual strike let's you move and still hit with both weapons letting you possibly daze the enemy. Power attack makes a great fallback for those DR enemies. And Improved Sunder is sort of the least valuable of the feats you have, but it's a pre-req, so it's ok.
Lomiat 10-11-06, 11:56 PM	If you're looking for a two-weapon fighter with a good degree of finesse, you might want to consider the Invisible Blade. It's certainly not the uber-powered PrC that LG players tend to favor, but for that reason, you'll have a unique character. And it's certainly not a bad class if you build the character correctly as it optimizes your sneak dice quite nicely. Gray Elf Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 12 Rog 1 - Two-weapon Fighting, sneak 1d6 Swa 2 - Weapon Finesse Rog 3 - Weapon Focus (dagger), evasion Ftr 4 - Point Blank Shot Ftr 5 - Far Shot Rog 6 - Skill Focus (bluff), sneak 2d6 Inv 7 - sneak 3d6, unfettered defense (start adding INT to AC if unarmored, e.g. mage armor or bracers of defense) Inv 8 - bleeding wound Inv 9 - Improved Two-weapon Fighting, sneak 4d6, uncanny feint (move action) Inv 10 - Feint mastery (always take 10 on bluff) Inv 11 - sneak 5d6, uncanny feint (free action) ... then either more Ftr for feats and Weapon Specialization, Nightsong Enforcer or other class for Sneak optimization, or Swashbuckler for INT to damage There are several ways you could adapt the classes and feats to alter the general build.
Cynric 10-12-06, 12:50 AM	If you're looking for a two-weapon fighter with a good degree of finesse, you might want to consider the Invisible Blade. It's certainly not the uber-powered PrC that LG players tend to favor, but for that reason, you'll have a unique character. And it's certainly not a bad class if you build the character correctly as it optimizes your sneak dice quite nicely. Gray Elf Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 12 Rog 1 - Two-weapon Fighting, sneak 1d6 Swa 2 - Weapon Finesse Rog 3 - Weapon Focus (dagger), evasion Ftr 4 - Point Blank Shot Ftr 5 - Far Shot Rog 6 - Skill Focus (bluff), sneak 2d6 Inv 7 - sneak 3d6, unfettered defense (start adding INT to AC if unarmored, e.g. mage armor or bracers of defense) Inv 8 - bleeding wound Inv 9 - Improved Two-weapon Fighting, sneak 4d6, uncanny feint (move action) Inv 10 - Feint mastery (always take 10 on bluff) Inv 11 - sneak 5d6, uncanny feint (free action) ... then either more Ftr for feats and Weapon Specialization, Nightsong Enforcer or other class for Sneak optimization, or Swashbuckler for INT to damage There are several ways you could adapt the classes and feats to alter the general build. And you can always take a level of wizard at 12 to access insightful feint, plus it opens up the option of Daggerspell mage if you can get access.
Halworth 10-12-06, 01:04 AM	STR 16 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 12 CHR 8 I haven't tried it out yet (I am have made the character and played ONE mod) The premise is simplcity, mucho fighter lvl's for gob's of feats + high Str to increase "to hit" bonus MAX out Crit multiplier Scimitar for greatest crit range, with a couple stat bumps and belt o' giant str you could have a 24 str by lvl 10. That's a +7 to hit/dmg bonus, and the damage bonus multiplies with the crit's. OBIVIOUS drawbacks are creatures that are not critable. Ranger 1 Two Weapon Fighting (Dex 15) Weapon Focus (scimitar) Barbarian 2 Fighter 3 Oversized two weapon fighting Extra Rage Fighter 4 Power Critical(BAB + 4)(Weapon Focus) Fighter 5 Fighter 6 Improved Two Weapons Fighting(BAB+6)(Dex 17) Weapon Specialization(Weapon Focus)(Fighter_4) Fighter 7 Fighter 8 Improved Critical(BAB + 8) Fighter 9 Improved Favored Enemy(Favored Enemy) Fighter 10 Greater Weapon Focus(Fighter_8) Fighter 11 Fighter 12 Greater Two Weapon Fighting(Dex 19)(BAB +11) Two Weapon Defense(or ???) Fighter 13 Fighter 14 Greater Weapon Specialization(Fighter 12) Fighter 15 Greater Two Weapon Defense(or ??)
paigeoliver 10-12-06, 07:59 AM	Try this, human, two levels of ranger, 1 of fighter, two weapon fighting, combat reflexes, weapon focus (halberd) and then the "Spinning Halberd" feat. You will two weapon fight with halberd and armor spikes and will have 3 attacks per round starting at 3rd level. You will always have one more attack than a normal two weapon fighter and can do more damage since your primary weapon is a 2 hander. The downside is that 3rd attack is at -5 to hit, but you'll start hitting with it once you get a few levels on you.
Elf=Ponce 10-12-06, 10:55 AM	I like Rogue for TWF. I'm runnning Lev5 Wood Elf - 3Rogue,2Fighter. Str18 TWF Exotic Weapon (BastardSword) Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) Oversized Offhand Weapon Great damage against crit-able foes and you can sub in as the party rogue or at least back him up. Lotsa skill points lets you max tumble so you can get flank. HPs aren't so hot and AC is not great... Works great with a tank or grappler. Rollling 3 dice for damage is fun too (d10+2d6+4)
ornsjach 10-12-06, 11:41 AM	[QUOTE=Timlagor]Sounds like it was just luck (or a brutal mod).QUOTE] No,That is pretty average for him. Once He got 3 ready action attacks off and critted every last one of them for a total between 50-80 Damage. (All the enemies were carrying heavy crossbows) That was him getting lucky
Mommy was an Orc 10-12-06, 03:50 PM	No,That is pretty average for him. Once He got 3 ready action attacks off and critted every last one of them for a total between 50-80 Damage. (All the enemies were carrying heavy crossbows) That was him getting lucky And probably not following the rules. You can't Ready actions outside of combat.
Timlagor 10-12-06, 04:56 PM	I like Rogue for TWF. I'm runnning Lev5 Wood Elf - 3Rogue,2Fighter. Str18 TWF Exotic Weapon (BastardSword) Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) Oversized Offhand Weapon FYI: The Feat is called 'Oversized Two Weapon Fighting' The only reason to take OTWF is so you can Power Attack which usually isn't high on the agenda for a Rogue -even a strong one (SnAt damage pushes the optimum PA way down ...and most things you can't SnAt have DR which you're rather 2HPA against anyway) Bastard swords are *really* not worth the EWP for a Rogue (who doesn't have a Feat to throw after a mere 1 damage per swing) -even a mutted one. The only good reason (mechanically anyway -RP is another matter) to take it is so you can Uncanny Blow [which you'd better consider worthwhile on the 2H usage because you're going to find lots of people who don't allow 2:1 PA 1-handed.] ...otherwise use longswords.
Japangirl 10-12-06, 05:32 PM	I have a rog/ftr Invisible Blade, she's fairly powerful but does run up against all the inevitable things rogues just suck against (undead, plants, elementals, oozes, constructs, swarms, mobs, etc). It's fun, but it can also be very painful. You only get that free action feint once per round, and the bluff only works on the very next attack, so you're still reliant on flanks to get your full attack off. If you want to do anything with rogue skills, it's extremely difficult and requires a lot of cross-classing, which is painful. Just a heads-up on some of the challenges you might face. Oh yeah. Defeating a worthy foe in single combat is not easy if you're a halfling rogue with 10 strength. Your build will probably find it less difficult, but suffice it to say I was one hit away from dead when I overcame my opponent. It's not something you can just have noted on your AR in most regions, you have to actually request a special mission from your triad for this PrC.
clik_ml 10-12-06, 05:59 PM	It'd be hilarious if this was the same DM who at a con critted my level 3 character 5 times with crossbows (two combats opened with every enemy firing on my character, apparently a halfling can be just so damned intimidating when he's next to a wood elf barbarian), and later ruled that my animal companion could be coup de gras'd when the agressor either had to reload or pick up a loaded crossbow to do so since it had just fired the previous round (illegal, I know, I said so, was overruled, and didn't feel like bringing in a senior DM). Combat was also made more difficult when I finally realized both he and I were both applying the cover modifier (I did it as a declared penalty to my rolls, I was rusty on the rules and didn't know it was a bonus to AC and not a penalty... but my declaring it should have fixed things) to the bad guys (who alllll had frickin cover), such that they got +8 to AC instead of +4. You know something is wrong when you can't hit a kobold at APL 2 with a 22. Ugh. Nevertheless, I wouldn't let one DM rule my build decisions, nor would I worry that he is going to crit you every round. And just to note, 3 critical hits by heavy crossbows maxes out at 60 damage (assuming no point blank shot) and it averages at 33. So that 50-80 estimate is a little askew. So either the dice are being rigged, or that result of 3 crossbow hits for 50+ is very statistically improbable... i.e. he wasn't just lucky, he was incredibly lucky. Regarding weapon style feat suggestions: I dunno if I like spinning halberd. I'm not sure whether you can even use enhancements on the haft end of it (expect table variation), and the second attack you get is only 1d6+1/2 strength mod (though thankfully not listed as a light weapon attack, so you can at least pow atk). The anvil of thunder notion is interesting, but damage output is awfully low on that build since you can't even power attack with the off-hand attacks effectively turning pow atk into a pre-req-only feat also. I'd probably fit in oversized TWF (at level 3) and swap out the handaxe for a dwarven waraxe. That will delay ImpTWF by only 2 levels if you go 8 Ftr/1 Barbarian, then at level 9 you take extra rage, and level 12 probably ought be reckless rage. After the barbarian level you can probably just keep taking fighter levels to end up 8 Ftr/1 Barb/8 Ftr, since there are still plenty of fighter feats to shop for (GreaterTWF,ShockTrooper+prereq,CombatBr ute,DualStrike). It is somewhat unique and by level 15 that Fort DC should be in the high 20's (possibly 29 enlarged), and that can make a big difference in combats since the only stuff likely to not worry about that DC are melee mutts (especially giant melee mutts) and of course undead are immune.
Lomiat 10-12-06, 07:16 PM	Regarding weapon style feat suggestions: I dunno if I like spinning halberd. I'm not sure whether you can even use enhancements on the haft end of it (expect table variation), and the second attack you get is only 1d6+1/2 strength mod (though thankfully not listed as a light weapon attack, so you can at least pow atk). I've got a character who's headed toward Spinning Halberd style, but, sadly, he won't pick it up until 15th level due to the fact that I prioritized Improved Trip, Power Attack, rage feats, and Staggering Strike. Of those, the only decision that gives me the slightest hesitation has been the Staggering Strike. I played the character through 9 straight adventures after I picked up the feat before I finally had a chance to use it in the 10th adventure. Of course, then I went to Dyvers and used it nearly every round. Nonetheless, I intend to pick up Spinning Halberd style largely because it's NOT a spiked chain build. Plus, by the time my character gets it, he'll be able to attack 4 times in a round, 5 with Haste (boots of speed), and 6 if I go for the armor spikes (not a bad idea). Even if the hafted end of the halberd doesn't get enhancements (though I expect it gets at least the straight enhancement, not necessarily the elemental types, since a sundered weapon loses its enhancements everywhere), it still allows one weapon to provide slashing, piercing and bludgeoning damage--which is unique, though not necessarily all that hot. ...But use that attack as the trip attack...
Iswald 10-12-06, 10:41 PM	Bastard swords are *really* not worth the EWP for a Rogue (who doesn't have a Feat to throw after a mere 1 damage per swing) -even a mutted one. Rogues don't get proficiency with longsword. So, yes, exotic weapon proficiency [bastard sword] is more useful for a rogue than a fighter even though the opportunity cost is also higher and the payoff less useful given the lower BAB and sneak attack damage.
Mommy was an Orc 10-13-06, 12:06 AM	Rogues don't get proficiency with longsword. So, yes, exotic weapon proficiency [bastard sword] is more useful for a rogue than a fighter even though the opportunity cost is also higher and the payoff less useful given the lower BAB and sneak attack damage. What? The average Rogue has a Dexterity of at least +4 better than Strength, particularly at high levels. Proficiency in Bastard Sword is roughly the equivalent of +2 damage(vs. Rapier) at a cost of at least +2 if not +3 to +6 to hit. Or more. Better to just wield a spiked chain non-proficiently with Weapon Finesse at a certain point.
clik_ml 10-13-06, 03:18 AM	Rogues don't get proficiency with longsword. I believe the rogue in question was an elf (a fighter/rogue elf even), so yes indeed the character in question get longsword proficiency.
Iswald 10-13-06, 10:02 AM	:rolleyes: Bastard swords are *really* not worth the EWP for a Rogue (who doesn't have a Feat to throw after a mere 1 damage per swing) -even a mutted one. The rogue in question was a wood elf, but the comment was regarding rogues in general. I'm not saying that it's an optimal choice. But, it is better for a rogue to spend a feat on exotic weapon proficiency than a fighter. Afterall, in this case, short sword vs bastard sword, they are getting the equivilent of weapon specialization, +2 damage, for the cost of a single feat and no levels of fighter. Contrary to popular opinion, a rogue doesn't have to have a higher dex than strength. But, if they do, they could just as well take exotic weapon proficiency [elven courtblade] so that they could spend another feat to gain weapon finesse in order to use it effectively. Not that they could TWF with an elven courtblade or would be guaranteed access.
ornsjach 10-13-06, 11:16 AM	here is what I Have come up with cense the last race:Dwarf stats:str16 Dex15 Con18 int8 wis 8 cha 8 Eguipment Dwarven waraxe, shortsword, light mace, and chain mail. later add a Scimitarand replace the shortsword and light mace with a morning star. replace chain mail with a mithral breastplate LVL:1 Barb or Fighter LVL:2 Fighter LVL:3 Fighter LVL:4 Fighter LVL:5 Fighter LVL:6 Fighter LVL:7 Fighter LVL:8 Dervish LVL:9 Dervish or Fighter LVL:10 Dervish or Fighter LVL:11 Dervish or Fighter LVL:12 Dervish or Fighter LVL:13 Dervish or Fighter LVL:14 Dervish or Fighter LVL:15 Dervish or Fighter
Iswald 10-15-06, 03:45 AM	If you're just using your blunt weapon to overcome DR in certain encounters, you don't really need to mention it in your build. When you do, it makes it appear that you plan to use it in your off hand while you use a bladed weapon as your primary weapon. If you plan to do this, it makes the levels of dervish useless since you can only use bladed weapons in your dervish dance. Have you decided which feats you intend to take?
ornsjach 10-16-06, 05:08 PM	Here is what I have so far feats Lvl1 TWF Lvl2 two weapon Defence Lvl3 Oversized TWF Lvl3 Dodge Lvl5 mobility Lvl6 Lvl8Impoved TWF
Iswald 10-18-06, 10:12 AM	Instead of using two weapon defense, you might want to use a shield instead. I think it was pointed out already, but if you take improved buckler defense, you get a higher AC bonus from using a magic shield and it takes just one feat. (Compared to taking two weapon defense and improved two weapon defense.) What may work even better, since using a buckler incurs a penalty to your attacks, is to look at shielded axe (RS). This will eliminate your penalty to attack. Unfortunately, it requires using a handaxe in your offhand. Reviewing your stats, it's not possible to enter dervish since you need combat expertise which requires 13 int.
Lomiat 10-18-06, 11:23 AM	I've become a fan of a couple of builds I've seen which use TWF and Improved Shield Bash to wield a normal weapon in one hand (longsword, battle axe, dwarven war axe, etc.) and a spiked shield in the other. This leads to an excellent combination of AC and attack.
_m_ 10-20-06, 12:07 AM	my build for the twf: grey elf with 18 int and 18 dex. swashbuckler, fighter, champion of correllan, dervish. i dont have the books on me (im at work) but u end up with a massive number of feats and abilities, including dervish dance, which is insanely good (especially since youve got all these cool springy attacking mobility feats, and a bunch in the combat ex line), and you add your strength, dex, and int bonus to your damage. it'l look more impressive when i get home and get the books and write it uper properly.
Mommy was an Orc 10-20-06, 09:37 AM	my build for the twf: grey elf with 18 int and 18 dex. ...you add your strength, dex, and int bonus to your damage. This is the classic 'does nothing of value' character. You've either got an 8 Str/12 Con or a 10 Str/10 Con as a melee character. Either you're subtracting your Str damage and having problems with Encumbrance or you can't take a hit. Even after you get Int to damage, you're still likely doing 1d6+3/1d6+3. It isn't until at least 7th that you start adding value. If I were going to build a grey elf with a high Int/Swashbuckler 3/Champ of C 2, it ought to include Scout 2, Rogue 3 and/or Ranger 2-3 as part of the build. That way there's some useful Int synergy with skill selection - you're a solid Mutt Trapfinder who happens to be decent at melee rather than an overly smart melee who doesn't do a whole lot. Plus Scout and Ranger give you the skills necessary to pick up Wildrunner 2 - which synergizes a lot better with Champ of C than Swashbuckler does.
_m_ 10-22-06, 09:38 PM	with champion of correlen and dervish, getting alot of attacks while dancing, with dex and int to damage, especially on nice high crit weapons, its more like a flurry of blows than a big single hit. as for hp / ac. ive got 10 str 10 con, so i can manage my armour, cuz its mostly dex. and hp, fighter hid dice with a periapt of health and you can take what hits beat your ac.
Mommy was an Orc 10-23-06, 01:10 AM	with champion of correlen and dervish, getting alot of attacks while dancing, with dex and int to damage, especially on nice high crit weapons, its more like a flurry of blows than a big single hit. as for hp / ac. ive got 10 str 10 con, so i can manage my armour, cuz its mostly dex. and hp, fighter hid dice with a periapt of health and you can take what hits beat your ac. I'm aware of what the combo does. Have you tried to actually play such a build from 1st-8th level? At that point, you're the low damage, low hit points, medium-high AC character who doesn't represent a viable threat to an intelligent opponent.
_m_ 10-23-06, 01:23 AM	hehe, im at 4th atm. basically all i do i stand around and marvel at my ac... which really isnt incredible. point conceded, its not brilliant so far... meh, its the first combat class ive ever built, everything else has been a caster, main being a slightly-less-than-optomised wizard/geometer/template/shadowcaster/nocturnmancer.