Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 09-23-06, 03:53 PM	Ok, I'm building a rogue here. Halfling, high dex, two weapon fighting- the cliched rogue (flexible if someone comes up with a nice idea). Issues: - Sneak attack. I'm full rogue apart from one dip into Nightsong Enforcer (opened via metaorg; even if I can't get access it just means another rogue level), so getting my sneaks is important. Are my feat choices workable? Suggestions for tactics? Currently, I'm thinking 'flank early, flank hard'. Anything else? - Hit points. Rogues don't have the best. A constitution amulet will be a high priority. - AC. Not sucky, especially at low levels, but not great. Items go a long way to fixing this, however. My current build looks something like this: Vinnie Martinis, Lightfoot halfling Str: 12 Dex: 18 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 1st Rogue Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting 2. Rogue 3. Rogue Feat: Weapon Finesse 4. Rogue 5. Rogue 6. Rogue Feat: Improved Initiative 7. Rogue 8. Nightsong Enforcer 9. Rogue Feat: Dodge 10. Rogue
Mommy was an Orc 09-23-06, 04:07 PM	Ok, I'm building a rogue here. Halfling, high dex, two weapon fighting- the cliched rogue (flexible if someone comes up with a nice idea). I generally think it is a good idea to get a level in something with all martial weapon proficiency and you're taking Weapon Finesse anyway. Why not make your 2nd level a level in Swashbuckler? That lets you use your 3rd level feat for Tactile Trapspringer, which starts off immediately as a +2/2 and eventually will hit +6/6 or so. It also gives you a couple of extra hit points.
Puggle Halfwine 09-23-06, 04:15 PM	I thought about that, but there's not many martial weapons you can finesse which I'm not already proficient with. What'll martial weapon proficiency bring to the character? Secondly, although it's nice, it's also diluting my sneak attack. Very tempting, but still. Is it worth it?
Mommy was an Orc 09-23-06, 04:53 PM	I thought about that, but there's not many martial weapons you can finesse which I'm not already proficient with. What'll martial weapon proficiency bring to the character? You're not proficient with composite longbows. Also, when you run into something that you can't sneak attack, it is usually better to do a d10 of damage rather than 1d4, even if you're not able to finesse it. Think of it as being Power Attack for when you need it :) And Tactile Trapspringer is an amazing feat for a Rogue who starts off with a difference of 4+ in Dex and Int and plans to level Dex...you'll get +2/2 just for taking it, putting your Search/Disable Device checks way up there and it goes up from there.
Nerax 09-24-06, 02:19 AM	Ok, I'm building a rogue here. Halfling, high dex, two weapon fighting- the cliched rogue (flexible if someone comes up with a nice idea). Str: 12 Dex: 18 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 My suggestion would be to drop your STR to 10 and put the points in WIS. This will help you with several skills and your will save. Next I would take MWaO's suggestion about Swashbuckler. This will move all of your feats down so that you can take Dodge or TW Defense at 6th. Mobility and SF:Tumble are going to serve you well with being a flanker. Being able to auto make a tumble through an enemy square is a great thing. Another option you have with your high INT is Combat Expertise and Improved Feint. My two bits. :D
Reylance 09-25-06, 11:32 AM	My suggestion would be to drop your STR to 10 and put the points in WIS. This will help you with several skills and your will save. Next I would take MWaO's suggestion about Swashbuckler. This will move all of your feats down so that you can take Dodge or TW Defense at 6th. Mobility and SF:Tumble are going to serve you well with being a flanker. Being able to auto make a tumble through an enemy square is a great thing. Another option you have with your high INT is Combat Expertise and Improved Feint. My two bits. :D Wis 9 is needed to be imbued with spell ability. You want the cleric to give you two Grave Strikes and a Divine Insight. Plus, your Will save will utterly suck. Don't make it any worse.
Puggle Halfwine 09-26-06, 02:06 AM	Point(s) taken, I've adusted my strength to 10 and my wisdom to 10 also. Any other suggestions?
Japangirl 09-26-06, 01:19 PM	I wouldn't bother with swashbuckler, the level of Nightsong Enforcer (Enforcer, not Infiltrator?) already hurts your sneak attack anyways. Get a ring or two of spell storing and have Grave Strikes from clerics, Golem Strikes from wizards, and Plant Strikes from druids prepped. That way you can sneak almost everything. Also, if you must dilute your sneak attack, consider a level of sorceror. Take swift spells to avoid spell failure from armor (most don't have somatic components), it ups your will save, and you get 3 spells per day. Of course, you would have to have an 11 Cha to do that, and that's rather hard to get. Maybe buy a 10 Cha, drop Wis, and get a cloak +2.
Puggle Halfwine 09-27-06, 12:00 AM	I wouldn't bother with swashbuckler, the level of Nightsong Enforcer (Enforcer, not Infiltrator?) already hurts your sneak attack anyways. Ah, I think you're getting them confused. Enforcer gives +1 BAB and +1d6 Sneak Attack at first level, so it's making my sneak attacks better... :P Get a ring or two of spell storing and have Grave Strikes from clerics, Golem Strikes from wizards, and Plant Strikes from druids prepped. That way you can sneak almost everything. Also, if you must dilute your sneak attack, consider a level of sorceror. Take swift spells to avoid spell failure from armor (most don't have somatic components), it ups your will save, and you get 3 spells per day. Of course, you would have to have an 11 Cha to do that, and that's rather hard to get. Maybe buy a 10 Cha, drop Wis, and get a cloak +2. Not bad ideas, but I'd like to stay as close to rogue as I can. The spellstoring ring is a good idea however.
DuctShuiTengu 09-27-06, 12:44 AM	Get a ring or two of spell storing and have Grave Strikes from clerics, Golem Strikes from wizards, and Plant Strikes from druids prepped. That way you can sneak almost everything. Unless I missed something, I don't think that would work. Golem Strike and Grave Strike both have a duration of just 1 round. Combined with the minimum time to activate a Ring of Spell Storing (1 Standard Action), wouldn't that result in the spell wearing off before you could actually take advantage of it?
Timlagor 09-27-06, 12:44 PM	Take Staggering Strike at 9th level. (I think you'll just have enough BAB but I may be wrong). I'd drop a point of Dex for 2Str and a Wis which just goes to show ;) [you can then live without Finesse to save a Feat]
Cynric 09-28-06, 12:39 AM	Oh yeah, Staggering strike is the way to go. A lot less damage comes back your way. It may even provoke the enemy into Power attacking you. Then add in Elusive taget and he really suffers:D
ezreal2001 09-28-06, 07:32 PM	Unless I missed something, I don't think that would work. Golem Strike and Grave Strike both have a duration of just 1 round. Combined with the minimum time to activate a Ring of Spell Storing (1 Standard Action), wouldn't that result in the spell wearing off before you could actually take advantage of it? He might be able to to pull of an AoO with it... ...but no not really woth the expense.
Japangirl 09-29-06, 02:49 AM	Unless I missed something, I don't think that would work. Golem Strike and Grave Strike both have a duration of just 1 round. Combined with the minimum time to activate a Ring of Spell Storing (1 Standard Action), wouldn't that result in the spell wearing off before you could actually take advantage of it? Oh crap. I missed that part of it. There goes my plans of awesome sneak attacks of doom on undead :(.
retro 10-03-06, 11:46 PM	Oh crap. I missed that part of it. There goes my plans of awesome sneak attacks of doom on undead :(. Go Skullclan Hunter, then. :) Regarding the proposed build, have you considered taking Improved Initiative at 1st level, and holding off on the twf until 3rd? You'll be sneak attacking a lot more with a higher initiative modifier, and if you take a level of swashbuckler at 2nd level for Weapon Finesse, you'll have a high enough attack bonus to compensate for the -2 twf penalty.
Japangirl 10-04-06, 02:15 AM	Go Skullclan Hunter, then. :) That might work for the above rogue, but my rogue is sadly far too advanced to even consider Skullclan Hunter. She's almost 13 now, I'm pretty much stuck with what I have so far :-/. That's OK though, the Rogue 5/Ftr 2/Invisible Blade 5/Sorc 1 build works fine for me (sorc at 13, when I level. After that, more rogue).
The_Jester 10-04-06, 01:04 PM	What about Improved Feint and lots of ranks in Bluff? Most monsters and NPCs only have a smattering of ranks in it. Feint as a move action then lay on the sneak attack round after round. Skill focus in bluff would also help and it's a bonus that works in and out of combat.
Mommy was an Orc 10-04-06, 01:35 PM	What about Improved Feint and lots of ranks in Bluff? Most monsters and NPCs only have a smattering of ranks in it. Feint as a move action then lay on the sneak attack round after round. Skill focus in bluff would also help and it's a bonus that works in and out of combat. The problem with Improved Feint is that if you're going to be doing single attacks, you don't want to take full attacks back in return each round.
Alpha_Nerd 10-05-06, 12:45 PM	For rogues in greyhawk I really prefer picking up an 11-12 charisma instead of a 14 int so I can splash favored soul. I like favored soul over sorcerer because it has a higher hit die, ridiculous saves, and I prefer Grave Strike over Golem Strike, although if you can afford the BAB you can take both. I had a build I was working with that was 7 rogue 1 fav soul 1 sorc 6 nightsong enforcer. It gives you a BAB of +11 at 15th level and the only monsters you can't consistently sneak attack are plants.
UMiskatonic 10-06-06, 11:00 AM	If you know a friendly cleric, you can request the following spell combo. 1) Imbue with spell ability 2) Lend you grave strike, grave strike, divine insight Sure, that's four spells, but it really adds a lot where it counts.
Japangirl 10-06-06, 03:28 PM	If you have Staggering Strike (if you sneak, it makes a Fort save (DC damage dealt) or be staggered), Improved Feint becomes a lot more viable. All of a sudden, your sneak attacks have a good chance of making the big scary monster take one attack on you for your one attack on them. It's still not a build I would use, but my Invisible Blade (free action feint 1/round) feints all the time to get the Staggering Strike in.
Iswald 10-06-06, 11:05 PM	If you know a friendly cleric, you can request the following spell combo. 1) Imbue with spell ability 2) Lend you grave strike, grave strike, divine insight Sure, that's four spells, but it really adds a lot where it counts. I don't think you can expect this until the higher levels. My cleric wouldn't give up a fourth level spell unless he had one to spare, which is around the time he has sixth level spells. Even then, do I want to use imbue or prepare something else such as deathward, recitation, or freedom of movement?
copper_wyrmling 10-07-06, 08:33 PM	I don't think you can expect this until the higher levels. My cleric wouldn't give up a fourth level spell unless he had one to spare, which is around the time he has sixth level spells. Even then, do I want to use imbue or prepare something else such as deathward, recitation, or freedom of movement? Asking for it is okay, but you're right, you shouldn't expect it in every game. If you're a heavily sneak-reliant rogue, and the mod looks like it'll be full of undead, then make sure the cleric player understands the situation - a lot of clerics will agree to give up a L4 spell slot to allow another PC to contribute at full effectiveness for a couple of rounds. If they say no, though, it's their spell and they probably have a good reason. (If it's *not* an undead-heavy mod, I usually feel that an extra Delay Death, Freedom of Movement or Divine Power helps the party more than two rounds of Gravestrike for the rogue.) I've had one rogue tell my cleric that if she didn't imbue him with a divine insight, he wouldn't try to disable traps, and the rest of the party could set them off any way they liked (this is pretty much a single-class rogue, not a fighter-mutt with incidental trapfinding). I like the player normally, but that statement did not impress me. (I was very tempted to respond with, "If you won't risk yourself for the party by attempting to disable nasty traps, then I won't risk taking AoOs from monsters to move in and heal you...")
ezreal2001 10-09-06, 10:07 PM	The problem with Improved Feint is that if you're going to be doing single attacks, you don't want to take full attacks back in return each round. If you're really keen on fienting, then Improved Feint plus a one level dip into Wiz/Sorc for the insightfull fient spell lets your PC fient as a free action... ... would this overspecialize your PC?
Puggle Halfwine 10-10-06, 06:02 AM	If you're really keen on fienting, then Improved Feint plus a one level dip into Wiz/Sorc for the insightfull fient spell lets your PC fient as a free action... ... would this overspecialize your PC? For me, no. But even then you only get sneak on your first hit. I got to play said rogue at SRDU recently (for the relaunch of Ratik). I had a long discussion regarding his build with some of the people who were there and I'll post a revised build once I get some more sleep into me.
Timlagor 10-10-06, 06:50 AM	For me, no. But even then you only get sneak on your first hit. Errr... what? You can apply Sneak Attack damage to any attack that qualifies. If you have 8 attacks in a round and you're standing next to a blind opponent (without Blind-Fight) you can apply your Sneak Attack dice to every single one o those eight attacks (and any AoOs you may get). Apologies if I misunderstood your remark -I think it may have been different in 2nd edition.
Puggle Halfwine 10-10-06, 07:37 AM	Errr... what? You can apply Sneak Attack damage to any attack that qualifies. If you have 8 attacks in a round and you're standing next to a blind opponent (without Blind-Fight) you can apply your Sneak Attack dice to every single one o those eight attacks (and any AoOs you may get). Apologies if I misunderstood your remark -I think it may have been different in 2nd edition. Ah, nono. That only applies to feints. For instance, if you begin initiative 5ft away from a flatfooted enemy, then five foot step and full attack him, he is sneakable on all your attacks- same with flanking. Each hit gets the sneak goodness. But with feint, I'm pretty sure it makes them flatfooted to their *next* attack; so even with a full attack sequence lined up, you only get one hit with sneak.
Timlagor 10-10-06, 08:04 AM	You're right. I misread your post -sorry about that.
The_Jester 10-10-06, 11:11 AM	When would a rogue ever get eight attacks per round? The most you will ever get in LG is 3, and that's with no dipping into other classes. And multiple attacks would only be an issue after level 8+. Besides, even with a good flank you're taking a -4 penalty to hit with your second attack. And you need a good ally to position yourself with. If you feint you only get one good attack but that's at your highest bonus, the enemy has no dex and you can do it solo (say when fighting a large group of enemies).
clik_ml 10-10-06, 11:26 AM	With TWFing chain and two speed weapons you can get 8 attacks as a rogue in LG...or with TWFing chain, flurry and hasted.
Mommy was an Orc 10-10-06, 12:08 PM	It really depends on who is in your party and what feats you take. There's a number of ways for a Rogue to get a very large number of attacks: Combat Reflexes, a Reach weapon, and Improved Invisibility(cast by a friendly wizard or UMD'd at high level) Haste TWF/ITWF/GTWF UMD scroll of Divine Power Opportunist Wand of Alter Self with UMD for trog bite Polymorph(cast by friendly wizard) into something with lots of attacks or at least a bite. Flurry by dipping into Monk or Exotic Weapon Master. Spinning Halberd feat from CW in combo with armor spikes and a Fighter level dip. As an example, at 6th level, the party Wizard casts Haste, you have TWF, so you get 3 sneak attacks if you're flanking with a cooperative teammate. Improved Feint is assuming that you're within range to take a full attack. At 10th level, you've got 2 regular, +2 for TWF/ITWF, +1 Haste, +1 Bite(UMDing a Wand of Alter Self to turn into a Trog) for 6 attacks. Add the last iterative and GTWF and you're there without even taking AoOs into account. When would a rogue ever get eight attacks per round? The most you will ever get in LG is 3, and that's with no dipping into other classes. And multiple attacks would only be an issue after level 8+. Besides, even with a good flank you're taking a -4 penalty to hit with your second attack. And you need a good ally to position yourself with. If you feint you only get one good attack but that's at your highest bonus, the enemy has no dex and you can do it solo (say when fighting a large group of enemies).
The_Jester 10-10-06, 03:24 PM	But you can't make a build assuming that you're going to have a wizard with haste. You have to assume that you're going to be partnered with the worst table possible and your build has to survive on its own merits. If it can do that then the few times you're invisible, hasted and armed with two weapons you should really kick some butt. And with movement of at least 40 (but as high as 60) getting into a flank is hard not to do. Two weapons would double attacks, but they do carry a penalty, easily eliminated the roll for flanking and rogues aren't known for the BAB. What good is doubling your attacks if half of them are going to miss anyway? Two well-placed sneak attacks over two rounds are going to do more damage than a single lucky critical on attack #5. Especially if it's with the low-damage off-hand light weapon. And a weapon of speed? Really? One feat is hardly going to make or break a character if you have 32,000 to dump into a single weapon for a single extra attack. Let alone two of them... With 64,000 gold you could up the bonuses to attack and have a much higher accuracy or slap on some nice damage for an even bigger kick when you connect.
Mommy was an Orc 10-10-06, 04:56 PM	But you can't make a build assuming that you're going to have a wizard with haste. You have to assume that you're going to be partnered with the worst table possible and your build has to survive on its own merits. One of the reasons people end up at the worst possible table is because people believe their builds have to survive on their own merits. Sure, you can't assume the Wizard casts Haste on you. You also can't assume you're never going to play at a table with a Wizard who casts Haste or that you'll never get access to Boots of Speed. Your build needs to be able to take advantage of as many other builds as possible - that way, no matter what table you're at, you contribute. TWF works on its own as does Improved Feint. But TWF synergizes with additional bonuses to hit/damage(Cleric, Wizard, Bard), Haste(Wizard, Bard) in a way that Improved Feint does not. Two weapons would double attacks, but they do carry a penalty, easily eliminated the roll for flanking and rogues aren't known for the BAB. What good is doubling your attacks if half of them are going to miss anyway? Because using TWF does not usually lead to doubling your miss chance if your build is competent.
GenghisBob 10-10-06, 06:44 PM	Greetz Puggle. First, you need to work in Combat Expertise into your Feat routine. At first level if you can. Quiet often you will be out on your own - getting into position for a sneak or giving flanks to people when you cant sneak, at these times you want to fight defensivle AND combat expertise. with tumble etc you want to get +8 AC for a -9 to hit (when you have bab5+ anyway) Swashbuckler at 3rd will give you synergies in skills that wont be wasted for taking a +1 bab and extra feat. Tactile Trapsmith is good, in fact excellent, but maybe not too early on, but look at the DCs for magical traps. You want to be able to hit +25 in most trap searches. Taking TWF you really want to make sure you take ITWF (4 attacks or 5 with haste) It is worth diluting your sneak attack progression with some splashes into BAB1+ classes to gain more bab to ensure you hit and some choice feats to also ensure you hit. Weapon Focus on a fighter splash is grand esentially a +2 to your Attack roll. If you take it early on you can use the fighter skill points for your jump or climb skills. (so you dont waste them) Have a look at Dread Commando as well as Night Song Enforcer, both of them are availble through Ratik Meta Orgs. Then buy your self a reach weapon. => When you cant sneak attack something, or you cant affect it due to DR / imunities etc, you Fight defensively and Combat expertise after tumbling into a flank and attack AC10 to aid another (so effectively you give the BDF a +4 on his/ her hit) Conssider the splash into Fav Soul or Cleric. Both have advantages. Domain Abilities for the cleric (celerity is good espeically as you only have a 20' move). Good saves. Grave stike, protection from evil etc etc. access to auto UMD of cleric sticks.... Now this is important as you can tumble around the battle field healing people or stabilising them in situations where you have no cleric or the cleric happens to be the BDF. On a TWF Rog in LG consider dipping 4 levels of Rog into other classes to assist in getting those 4/5 attacks home. In a single attack Rog like Spiked Chain or Rapier you can afford to stay full class Rog, and you kind of need it becasue you are only delivering 1 or 2 attacks. as you are delivering 4 or 5 attacks at APL8+ you can afford to dilute the Sneak attack some what.
Iswald 10-10-06, 10:33 PM	Two weapons would double attacks, but they do carry a penalty, easily eliminated the roll for flanking and rogues aren't known for the BAB. What good is doubling your attacks if half of them are going to miss anyway? Two well-placed sneak attacks over two rounds are going to do more damage than a single lucky critical on attack #5. Especially if it's with the low-damage off-hand light weapon. The more attacks you have in a round, the greater your chance of rolling a natural 20. While individual attacks have a lower chance of success, the total chance of hitting is up.
DuctShuiTengu 10-10-06, 11:54 PM	Okay, so up until you start getting iterative attacks, here's how one weapon vs two weapons breaks down in terms of your odds of hitting. To hit represents the number you need to roll to hit them normally (so with TWF, you'd need either two higher or a nat 20, but I'm lazy and didn't feel like copying it over and adjusting it.) And I know there's no 0 on a d20, but that's what it takes for you to hit on everything but a 1 after you take the -2 to hit for TWF. Normal TWF To Hit 1 Hit 2 Hits 1+ Hits 1 Hit 2 Hits 1+ Hits 0 95.00% 0.00% 95.00% 9.50% 90.25% 99.75% 1 95.00% 0.00% 95.00% 18.00% 81.00% 99.00% 2 95.00% 0.00% 95.00% 25.50% 72.25% 97.75% 3 90.00% 0.00% 90.00% 32.00% 64.00% 96.00% 4 85.00% 0.00% 85.00% 37.50% 56.25% 93.75% 5 80.00% 0.00% 80.00% 42.00% 49.00% 91.00% 6 75.00% 0.00% 75.00% 45.50% 42.25% 87.75% 7 70.00% 0.00% 70.00% 48.00% 36.00% 84.00% 8 65.00% 0.00% 65.00% 49.50% 30.25% 79.75% 9 60.00% 0.00% 60.00% 50.00% 25.00% 75.00% 10 55.00% 0.00% 55.00% 49.50% 20.25% 69.75% 11 50.00% 0.00% 50.00% 48.00% 16.00% 64.00% 12 45.00% 0.00% 45.00% 45.50% 12.25% 57.75% 13 40.00% 0.00% 40.00% 42.00% 9.00% 51.00% 14 35.00% 0.00% 35.00% 37.50% 6.25% 43.75% 15 30.00% 0.00% 30.00% 32.00% 4.00% 36.00% 16 25.00% 0.00% 25.00% 25.50% 2.25% 27.75% 17 20.00% 0.00% 20.00% 18.00% 1.00% 19.00% 18 15.00% 0.00% 15.00% 9.50% 0.25% 9.75% 19 10.00% 0.00% 10.00% 9.50% 0.25% 9.75% 20 5.00% 0.00% 5.00% 9.50% 0.25% 9.75% So, you get slightly better odds of hitting with just one weapon if you needed a 17, 18, or 19. Personally though, for 17 and 19, all else being equal, I'd still go with TWF, since the possible extra hit balances out the greater chance of both missing.
solbergb 10-11-06, 02:49 PM	The thing to consider is your chance of doing NOTHING is far less with TWF. Your overall chances round by round are similar. Some tactical moves benefit by zillions of attacks to get statistics working for you instead of against you (trip and grapple, although the latter needs monk levels, it doesn't work with TWF)
jstorrie 10-13-06, 06:04 PM	I honestly wouldn't advise dipping just to get Grave/Golemstrike. You're far better off just keeping your UMD capped, and purchasing a wand of some useful anti-undead spell. There aren't many wandable anti-construct spells, but you could just use wands of Cure X Wounds instead - which you should be purchasing anyway. Combat Expertise is counterintuitively good - with a low BAB and TWF you'll often find that you need to roll a 19 or 20 to hit heavily-armored foes. Sacking all of your BAB and just hoping for a lucky 20 is often the second-best option, there (with pulling back and contributing via UMD the best, though positioning does not always make that possible.)
GenghisBob 10-14-06, 02:30 AM	Combat Expertise is counterintuitively good - with a low BAB and TWF you'll often find that you need to roll a 19 or 20 to hit heavily-armored foes you only have to hit AC10 to give a +2 to hit to the BDF, and you dont have to use TWF, and if you tumble into position you can increase that to giving a flank to the guy you just gave the "Aid another" +2 to. Increaseing his next attack to +4 to hit.
jstorrie 10-15-06, 12:21 PM	you only have to hit AC10 to give a +2 to hit to the BDF, and you dont have to use TWF, and if you tumble into position you can increase that to giving a flank to the guy you just gave the "Aid another" +2 to. Increaseing his next attack to +4 to hit. Do you find that this is worth the possibility of taking a full power attack to the face next round?
Lomiat 10-15-06, 01:22 PM	Do you find that this is worth the possibility of taking a full power attack to the face next round? It depends on the BBEG, really. A big, dumb monster isn't going to focus on you when all you're doing is helping that greater nuisance smash you harder. It will focus on the greater nuisance. If you're fighting a cunning villain, you have to reconsider your bet: will the supergenius tactical fighter spend a round to take your rogue out of the picture in order to eliminate the aid it gives the fighter? Perhaps. In that case, maybe you fall back. But then again, maybe you don't.
GenghisBob 10-16-06, 03:24 AM	Do you find that this is worth the possibility of taking a full power attack to the face next round? THis was in the context of using Combat experitse and fighting defensively. So a rog with more than bab 5+ and tumble skill should be able to have a bonus of +8 to AC for a -9 to hit. In the case of my PC at APl 10-12 this means an AC of 35. (not good not bad, PCs in my area can get up to 45 ~ but cant hit anything) The idea is that you are doing something usefull while being defensive until you can get the chance of a full sneak attack - preferablly with TWF. This is as opposed to being defensive and swinging at the monster to try actually hit him (and needing a 20 to do so). The fact is if you are a combat rog you are always facing the possibility of taking the full power attack/ full attack. If you are TWFer then you have to work your way into position. You just need to decide what you are going to do on your rounds where you only have one attack and maybe not a flank. If this is a case where the monster is immune to sneak attack or you dont have weapons to affect the monster due to DR, then aiding your Big Fighter guy to hite more often and harder is well worth taking a few power attack swings. As you pointed out before UMD may be a better option for those rounds where the ROg is ineffective. Regards GB
jstorrie 10-16-06, 06:08 PM	You can't use Combat Expertise with the aid another action. It only works with the attack action or the full attack action. Similarly you can't fight defensively unless you are using an attack or full attack option, and total defense is a standard round action, which wouldn't allow you to aid in the same round. UMD is absolutely the best option in cases where a rogue can't contribute with melee or ranged combat, and if you are stuck in melee combat it is generally preferable to cork and hope for a nat 20 than to aid and open yourself up to a power attack that may potentially drop you.
Japangirl 10-16-06, 06:13 PM	As a non-UMD rogue, I find that the best course of action is to give the big fighter a flank and assist that tank in AC or to-hit. Defensively, of course. +2 to hit from flank and either +2 hit or +2 AC from the assist can really turn a combat around, and since I'm not really a big threat I don't eat power attacks to the face very often. Also, if I do get hit, I can tumble out and hide behind the cleric if I have to.
GenghisBob 10-16-06, 07:03 PM	You can't use Combat Expertise with the aid another action. It only works with the attack action or the full attack action. Similarly you can't fight defensively unless you are using an attack or full attack option, and total defense is a standard round action, which wouldn't allow you to aid in the same round.. AId another is classed as a Special attack and requires an attack roll, ive always seen both combat expertise and fighting defensively allowed for all the special attacks, as the attack roll for the special attacks is modified by all modifers that a regula attack roll recieves. Im sure you can use both fighitng defensively and CE, as the FAQ states When using Combat Expertise or Power Attack, does the penalty you take also apply to opposed attack rolls (such as when you are involved in a disarm or sunder attempt)? What about on grapple checks? Yes and no. Anything described as an attack roll (even an opposed attack roll) can be affected by Combat Expertise or Power Attack. A grapple check isn’t an attack roll, so you can’t use Combat Expertise or Power Attack in conjunction with it. The text for Aid another states "You make an attack roll to hit AC10" Unlee i am getting mixed up some where. Regards GB
jstorrie 10-16-06, 10:18 PM	And the text for Combat Expertise states "When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee..." The text for fighting defensively states that "You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action..." which also precludes 'aiding defensively.' Regardless of aid requiring an attack roll, you can't use it in conjunction with Combat Expertise. You're actually taking that FAQ quotation out of context, as it's addressing the question of whether or not your to-hit penalties from Power Attack / Combat Expertise would apply to the special attack options. If you have been using aid with Combat Expertise or fighting defensively at your tables I'd advise you stop, as the rules as written don't actually allow it.
GenghisBob 10-17-06, 01:36 AM	And the text for Combat Expertise states "When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee..." The text for fighting defensively states that "You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action..." which also precludes 'aiding defensively.' The text for fighting defensively is slighty differnent, it says "you can choose to fight defensively when attacking."
jstorrie 10-17-06, 01:53 AM	There are only two rules sources which lay out fighting defensively. The full-attack version I have quoted above (page 143, PHB). The other version, which you are referring to, relates only to the standard action attack action. It is collected with the other caveats that apply to the standard attack action in the collected paragraphs for that action. Even if you could combine fighting defensively with the aid another action - which you can't - you still aren't able to apply Combat Expertise, and a mere +2 or +3 does not save you from getting creamed by a Power Attack full attack.
ezreal2001 10-17-06, 02:46 AM	Even if you could combine fighting defensively with the aid another action - which you can't - you still aren't able to apply Combat Expertise, and a mere +2 or +3 does not save you from getting creamed by a Power Attack full attack. Actually the PBH explicitly states you can combine combat expertise and fighting defensively.
Japangirl 10-17-06, 02:51 AM	Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. See also: Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action. Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. Aid Another If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. It looks to me like you can combine fighting defensively as a standard action with aiding another (a standard action attack action). You just take a -4 penalty when trying to hit that AC 10. I included fighting defensively as a full-round action as a comparison only, as aiding someone isn't a full round action and thus isn't covered by that rule. Nothing in it precludes aiding another defensively, though. Aiding another is an attack, as it is under the "Special Attacks" section of the PHB right next to bull rushing, charging, grappling, and the like.
Iswald 10-17-06, 09:54 AM	It looks to me like you can combine fighting defensively as a standard action with aiding another (a standard action attack action). You just take a -4 penalty when trying to hit that AC 10. I included fighting defensively as a full-round action as a comparison only, as aiding someone isn't a full round action and thus isn't covered by that rule. Nothing in it precludes aiding another defensively, though. Aiding another isn't a standard action attack action, it's just a standard action. While it is in the special attack section, there are other actions in the list, such as feinting and turning undead, that wouldn't work with combat expertise. Even though you are making an attack as part of your standard action, is that enough to be considered an attack action?
jstorrie 10-17-06, 12:59 PM	Actually the PBH explicitly states you can combine combat expertise and fighting defensively. I am not suggesting you can't. Reread.
Japangirl 10-17-06, 04:45 PM	Aiding another isn't a standard action attack action, it's just a standard action. While it is in the special attack section, there are other actions in the list, such as feinting and turning undead, that wouldn't work with combat expertise. Even though you are making an attack as part of your standard action, is that enough to be considered an attack action? Because it specifically states that you make an attack roll against an AC, it looks like an attack action to me. Feinting and turning undead don't have attack rolls, just die rolls. Aiding someone is, say, pushing the opponent's arm aside, or trying to throw them off balance. You can do that with a care to your own defense.