Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kinevon 04-02-08, 06:20 AM	I just received access to having a lizardfolk cohort on an AR, and the access includes a +2 to my character's effective Leadership score, which helps cover his low Charisma modifier (-1), so this would be the only way/reason I would think of taking a cohort. Now, I am looking for advice on whether a cohort is worthwhile to spend a feat on, especially as, if I take the feat at 6th level (next level), the cohort would only be ECL 4, which, for a lizardfolk, would be 2 humanoid HD, +1 ECL, and only first level in an actual class. Factors that would affect the value of taking a cohort: The PC who can take this cohort is a fighter-type (at 6th, he will be Fighter 4/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1), but not a high AC fighter, and my build abilities are probably not going to make him all that much of a BBDF. Asking for advice on how to improve his build would be a whole different discussion. ;) Lizardfolk get a +5 natural armor bonus Lizardfolk stat adjustments: +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int Favored class is Druid, but the PC he would be the cohort for would be 12th level before the druid would gain his first wild shape. So, while a lizardfolk cohort would be able to come up with an awesome AC with a heavy armor wearing build, I am not sure that tanking a cohort who will always be below APL, and therefore low on hit points, is the most effective use of a cohort. Cleric, given how rare they are in my area (region is Theocracy of the Pale), might be useful, and allow him to still go the heavy armor route, but he will have a serious deficit in spellcasting in any magical class, since he would be, effectively, 3 levels shy of his effective level in spells. And I have no idea how Practiced Spellcaster would work with the +1 ECL, even if it would help reduce the bite from the 2 humanoid levels. If he did go caster, I would want him to be able to cast Enlarge Person, either through regular spell list or Domain, since that would be of benefit to my primary PC. So, would a lizardfolk cohort be worth the time? And if so, what classes (and deity, if cleric) should I be considering for him?
copperwyrmling 04-03-08, 12:35 AM	Cool as it is, I don't really see a way to make this cohort work well for you. The best sort of cohort for your build is probably a buffing-oriented spellcaster, and lizardfolk are not well suited for that.
_metz_ 04-03-08, 07:14 AM	The lizardfolk cohort is really limited by the level adjustment and the 2 racial hit dice. It essentially limits it to being an ok fighter. Having 1 BaB over effectively 3 levels when you are down 2 for being a cohort makes it very suboptimal. They can be ok corks, but even still...
kinevon 04-03-08, 08:20 AM	The lizardfolk cohort is really limited by the level adjustment and the 2 racial hit dice. It essentially limits it to being an ok fighter. Having 1 BaB over effectively 3 levels when you are down 2 for being a cohort makes it very suboptimal. They can be ok corks, but even still... It is only down 1 BaB if it goes into a fighter-type, but that still makes it something that is going to just more-or-less stand there, not hitting except when the PC can be using gobs of Power Attack... And the 1st level caster as a 4th level cohort would be nasty. Especially since, despite it all, he wouldn't get his first stat boost until his next level. :( Marshal/cork looks like one of the more interesting variants, but, even then, he doesn't seem to have any way to make an opponent have to deal with him as a cork, except through the Goad feat, and that only works on adjacent melee attackers. Anyone with a ranged attack is going to keep the heck away from him, what with a large shield and full plate... Sigh. That +2 to Leadership seemed like such a nice way to overcome my 8 Charisma, too. But, given everything, he would need a buffing or healing spellcaster for a cohort to fill in his weaknesses... And that is an area where a lizardfolk cohort would just not work very well. :( Oh, well, opportunity lost, but a feat saved.
TetsujinOni 04-03-08, 11:52 AM	It is only down 1 BaB if it goes into a fighter-type, but that still makes it something that is going to just more-or-less stand there, not hitting except when the PC can be using gobs of Power Attack... And the 1st level caster as a 4th level cohort would be nasty. Especially since, despite it all, he wouldn't get his first stat boost until his next level. :( Marshal/cork looks like one of the more interesting variants, but, even then, he doesn't seem to have any way to make an opponent have to deal with him as a cork, except through the Goad feat, and that only works on adjacent melee attackers. Anyone with a ranged attack is going to keep the heck away from him, what with a large shield and full plate... Sigh. That +2 to Leadership seemed like such a nice way to overcome my 8 Charisma, too. But, given everything, he would need a buffing or healing spellcaster for a cohort to fill in his weaknesses... And that is an area where a lizardfolk cohort would just not work very well. :( Oh, well, opportunity lost, but a feat saved. Lizardfolk Cohort options: 2HPA cork. Seems like it works OK if you are a transmuter type buffer/utility caster. Druid cork/buffer/terrain handler. Stats are weird for this. Bottom line: not a great plan for mid-levels, especially in the Pale - what WOULD they do to a lizardfolk?
kinevon 04-03-08, 12:07 PM	Lizardfolk Cohort options: 2HPA cork. Seems like it works OK if you are a transmuter type buffer/utility caster. Druid cork/buffer/terrain handler. Stats are weird for this. Bottom line: not a great plan for mid-levels, especially in the Pale - what WOULD they do to a lizardfolk? The PC who has this is a pure fighter-type, although he might, with a Wisdom booster (too many useful neck items), wind up able to cast spells from the Paladin spell list (weird). And, since lizardfolk are usually neutral, per the MM, not much. Not like he was a kobold, which is a race that is usually LE. Kobold PCs/cohorts suffer (or should suffer) much more adverse effects... Given how relaxed my area is on kobold PCs, I wouldn't expect any difficulty from a lizardfolk cohort. I was not the only one at the table who got the AR, saw the lizardfolk favor, and went, "Hmmmm."
_metz_ 04-03-08, 12:16 PM	Lizardfolk Cohort options: 2HPA cork. Seems like it works OK if you are a transmuter type buffer/utility caster. Druid cork/buffer/terrain handler. Stats are weird for this. Bottom line: not a great plan for mid-levels, especially in the Pale - what WOULD they do to a lizardfolk? Probably Whatever Pholtus would do. Taken from the acronym: W.W.P.D. (What would Pholtus do) and we all that would mean bieng monotheistic, irritating non human,s and generally being a zealot douche Yeah Yeah I know the pale gets a bad rap out of the pale blah blah, doesn't stop my PC/s thinking Pholtans should be beaten with a large stick till they accept other theocratic views... (My LG dwarf can't stand arrogant human pholtans)
kinevon 04-03-08, 12:26 PM	Yeah Yeah I know the pale gets a bad rap out of the pale blah blah, doesn't stop my PC/s thinking Pholtans should be beaten with a large stick till they accept other theocratic views... (My LG dwarf can't stand arrogant human pholtans) Well, I have to admit that my character has a low opinion on dwarves in general, but that is mainly because of the stupidity evidenced by the dwarf he adventured with during his first ever adventure. The fellow went out of his way to aggravate the Pholtan druids, mainly by lying about everything. Then again, maybe he was a Barbarian, and therefore both illiterate and ignorant of the meaning of Common, and didn't understand the information we had received... And my buddy, the Ranger archer, and I never did hear a "Thanks!" from the rest of the party for dealing with the rust monster before it could get to their gear...
Hariman 04-07-08, 12:44 PM	The lizardfolk cohort is really limited by the level adjustment and the 2 racial hit dice. It essentially limits it to being an ok fighter. Having 1 BaB over effectively 3 levels when you are down 2 for being a cohort makes it very suboptimal. They can be ok corks, but even still... Paired with a fighter a lizardfolk would become a flanking buddy/melee brute. And having another barbarian fighter follow you around isn't a bad thing, as I've seen many parties that needed extra melee. Also, don't Lizardfolk get +5 natural armor, making them better than average high AC corks? And, unless I'm mistaken, the Monster Manual entry only gives the lizardfolk +1 LA. Combined with +2 to Strength, +2 to Con and -2 to Int, that's a ticket to an 18 Str/18 Con cork of doom! Four levels of fighter gets your lizardfolk three extra feats, two of which should be Weapon focus and Specialization, extra HP and access to Weapon Mastery. You have to work a little to make a lizardfolk's build work, but it can be impressive. Heck, +5 natural armor combined with full plate and a heavy shield is already 25 AC. At 4th level. If the lizardfolk is a barbarian that will go down, but up goes damage output. Plus, with 18 con, he'll have at least 34 HP after one fighter level. But his AC will likely always be better than the average thanks to +5 natural armor. This is because 20 +APL is considered the minimum AC.
kinevon 04-07-08, 05:52 PM	A lizardfolk cohort is going to be down 2 BaB from a non-lizardfolk cohort of the same level. He is +1 ECL, and only gets +1 to BaB for his two humanoid hit dice, so will only have a +2 BaB as a fighter-type as a 4th level cohort, which puts him 4 below my 6th level fighter's BaB of 6 at 6th level, when the 4th level cohort becomes available. Yes, they get +5 natural AC, and only +1 LA, but they also have 2 racial/humanoid hit dice, so only 1 class level as a 4th level cohort. And it will forever be 3 levels, and 2 BaB, lower than a human cohort of the same level would be. On the 18/18 cork of doom, it is something that might work with a creation card, but cohorts are limited to the elite point array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) build, so the "best" starting build would be 17/16 for Str/Con, 12 Dex, 13 for the specialty stat Cha for Goad?), and Int at 6 or 8, with Wis at 10 or 8. :( Four levels of fighter means he would be a 7th level cohort, which means that the leader would be 10th level, so the lizardfolk cohort would be down 5 BaB from the leader at that point... Sure, he'll have a good AC, but as a first level fighter, he would just have a 17 Str and 16 Con, so +3 HP per HD, for 3 HD, so 8+5+6+9 = 28 hit points, where my non-BDF fighter will have 47 hit points. At APL 4, which is at the limit of playing down feasibly for the prime at that point, he could survive a couple of good hits, but at APL 6, he would be easier to hit, and take more damage on average from the hit, so he is a bit too fragile, in my opinion. Barbarian would give him another hit point, but drop his AC significantly, even before he rages, which would only give him 6 more hit points... Unfortunately, while it is a nice access, I don't think it would be a good idea, since it would cost both a feat and give a less than capable cohort. With a cloak of charisma, I could actually get an at-level cohort without an ECL adjustment, so even that +2 is not worth the cost.
TetsujinOni 04-07-08, 07:29 PM	I think the fundamental thing you want to do with Leadership is provide something which may be completely lacking on the table. I've found that bringing a lizardfolk tank (fighter x/barb 1) is an effective addition to my transmuter; Leadership is a natural roleplaying choice for him as well. I don't think you'll be able to do as much in terms of appropriate gap-filling using a lizardfolk as a cohort to your fighter.
kinevon 04-07-08, 07:38 PM	I think the fundamental thing you want to do with Leadership is provide something which may be completely lacking on the table. I've found that bringing a lizardfolk tank (fighter x/barb 1) is an effective addition to my transmuter; Leadership is a natural roleplaying choice for him as well. I don't think you'll be able to do as much in terms of appropriate gap-filling using a lizardfolk as a cohort to your fighter. That's the conclusion this thread has brought me to, as well. What most of the tables I have played on seem to need is divine spellcasting, and, while that would work well for the tank-like aspects a lizardfolk would bring as a cohort, it just wouldn't be worthwhile for the weak spellcasting it would get. Spellcaster cohort minus 3 levels of spellcasting is just not a good idea. Practiced spellcaster would help, a little, but it would still be missing the higher levels of spells that would be what is really needed. After all, there is usually someone at the table who can use a CLW wand, even if there aren't any dedicated healers there. Cleric, healer, ranger, paladin or rogue, even some arcane casters (I think there is a thread around here somewhere about a Beguiler who acts as a Cleric, after all).
TetsujinOni 04-08-08, 11:36 AM	That's the conclusion this thread has brought me to, as well. What most of the tables I have played on seem to need is divine spellcasting, and, while that would work well for the tank-like aspects a lizardfolk would bring as a cohort, it just wouldn't be worthwhile for the weak spellcasting it would get. Spellcaster cohort minus 3 levels of spellcasting is just not a good idea. Practiced spellcaster would help, a little, but it would still be missing the higher levels of spells that would be what is really needed. After all, there is usually someone at the table who can use a CLW wand, even if there aren't any dedicated healers there. Cleric, healer, ranger, paladin or rogue, even some arcane casters (I think there is a thread around here somewhere about a Beguiler who acts as a Cleric, after all). Leadership for an RSoP cohort isn't a bad call for a frontliner with a lack of healers in the usual play groups. Might be worth some investment in hitting battle interactives - they're where I've seen other +Leadership favors.
kinevon 04-08-08, 12:02 PM	Leadership for an RSoP cohort isn't a bad call for a frontliner with a lack of healers in the usual play groups. Might be worth some investment in hitting battle interactives - they're where I've seen other +Leadership favors. My archer PC's feat list looks pretty full, so not sure if Leadership would be worth adding. Especially since I am not sure if there is RSoP type of availability for NG clerics of NG gods. And what is a "battle interactive"? I just missed out on playing in one interactive at NeonCon, due to having my first (and only, at th etime) LG PC buy the big one late the day before.
magebeast 04-08-08, 04:45 PM	My archer PC's feat list looks pretty full, so not sure if Leadership would be worth adding. Especially since I am not sure if there is RSoP type of availability for NG clerics of NG gods. And what is a "battle interactive"? I just missed out on playing in one interactive at NeonCon, due to having my first (and only, at th etime) LG PC buy the big one late the day before. Battle interactive, as far as I know, refers to interactives where the PCs are involved in a large scale battle where each table is essentially one portion of a larger conflict.
TetsujinOni 04-08-08, 05:40 PM	My archer PC's feat list looks pretty full, so not sure if Leadership would be worth adding. Especially since I am not sure if there is RSoP type of availability for NG clerics of NG gods. And what is a "battle interactive"? I just missed out on playing in one interactive at NeonCon, due to having my first (and only, at th etime) LG PC buy the big one late the day before. RSoP requires a NG alignment. Available gods in LG for an RSoX are: Atroa, Azor'alq, Ehlonna, Lydia, Pelor, Pholtus, Phyton, Skerrit. Worshipers of Atroa, Azor'alq Ehlonna, Pholtus, Phyton, and Lydia notably suck a bit as Radiant Servant, since they lack the Healing domain. Skerrit is only available to Centaurs. On the other hand, Travel/Sun radiant servant or Celerity/Sun radiant servant is an interesting possibility... Pholtus just.... ugh. Terrible domains.
MwaO 04-10-08, 04:51 PM	RSoP requires a NG alignment. Available gods in LG for an RSoX are: Atroa, Azor'alq, Ehlonna, Lydia, Pelor, Pholtus, Phyton, Skerrit. Worshipers of Atroa, Azor'alq Ehlonna, Pholtus, Phyton, and Lydia notably suck a bit as Radiant Servant, since they lack the Healing domain. Skerrit is only available to Centaurs. On the other hand, Travel/Sun radiant servant or Celerity/Sun radiant servant is an interesting possibility... Pholtus just.... ugh. Terrible domains. The Healing Domain aspect of Radiant Servant of Pelor/Nola is icing on a lousy domain. Would you like chocolate or vanilla with your brussel sprouts? The advantage of having 3 domains is that you have a wide variety of spells to cast - putting your domain slots into Healing spells means you lose significant utility for spells - and the most valuable slots for Clerics are 4th level spells. Then on top of it, it doesn't work with Heal. Atroa or Lydia is an amazing choice for a RSoX - with Domain Spontaneity, they can cast Fly/Dimension Door/Teleport at will. And because they have the Travel domain, when the party gets stuck in an Evard's, they can reach out and get them out...and Atroa has a variety of nice other domain choices for the extra choice.
TetsujinOni 04-11-08, 04:45 PM	The Healing Domain aspect of Radiant Servant of Pelor/Nola is icing on a lousy domain. Would you like chocolate or vanilla with your brussel sprouts? The advantage of having 3 domains is that you have a wide variety of spells to cast - putting your domain slots into Healing spells means you lose significant utility for spells - and the most valuable slots for Clerics are 4th level spells. Then on top of it, it doesn't work with Heal. Atroa or Lydia is an amazing choice for a RSoX - with Domain Spontaneity, they can cast Fly/Dimension Door/Teleport at will. And because they have the Travel domain, when the party gets stuck in an Evard's, they can reach out and get them out...and Atroa has a variety of nice other domain choices for the extra choice. So you're asserting that the empower class feature is a build trap in LG? Interesting, I'll have to consider that. (I've got a lydian Sun/Travel first level char kicking around somewhere)
MwaO 04-11-08, 05:23 PM	So you're asserting that the empower class feature is a build trap in LG? Interesting, I'll have to consider that. (I've got a lydian Sun/Travel first level char kicking around somewhere) Yes. The Empower class feature is nice, but when you have access say the following domain spells: 1: Longstrider(move quickly in fullplate)/Entangle 2: Barkskin 3: Fly 4: DDoor/Wall of Thorns 5: Teleport 6: Fire Seeds 7: Animate Plants/Sunbeam/Greater Teleport Wouldn't you rather be casting those spells instead? When you toss in the value of 3rd/4th level slots for Clerics, Empowered Insignia of Healing is essentially what you get from Mass CLW with the special and then finally that Heal isn't even affected by it... I just don't see the value of it. If you have Pelor's domain choices and those choices only, then it has more value, because your 4th level spell slots aren't going to be as interesting. Particularly in a world where the DM says no to Insignia of Healing.
kinevon 07-11-08, 12:44 PM	Well, I am bumping this thread up for additional discussion because I have reached a point where I am contemplating going for Leadership again. When I am able to get the Leadership feat, it would be by retraining my 6th level feat, which is Woodland Archer. Nice feat, but not as useful as I would like. I haven't seen much in the way of concealment to overcome, the +4 to hit seldom comes into play, and my character couldn't hide in a coal cellar at midnight... And it would be when I take my next level, 9th, in OotBI. Primary PC: Fighter 4, Barbarian 1, Pious Templar 3, Order of the Bow Initiate 1; primary role: Striker - Ranged (Archer) Lizardfolk cohort: +2 to leadership Any cohort: +2 to leadership from Great Renown Charisma 8 (-1) Effective leadership: Lizardfolk: +3, for 12, allowing the cohort to be the full 7th level equivalent Any other: +1, for 10, allowing the cohort to be the full 7th level equivalent Note that the lizardfolk cohort will be able to maintain the 2 level gap through 14th level of the primary PC, but that the non-lizardfolk cohort would not be able to do as well, since the very next level would leave it at 7th level cohort to a 10th level PC. Note that this is assuming that I don't get another boost to leadership or effective Charisma... As a reminder: Lizardfolk get Str +2, Dex +2, Int -2, +5 natural armor, and would be built using the Elite characteristic array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), +1 ECL and 2 humanoid hit dice, so a 7th level lizardfolk character would only have 4 class levels.
kinevon 07-13-08, 10:24 AM	Replying to your self is pathetic. Color me pathetic. ;) In looking at it in more detail, I am looking more at a "normal" cohort in order to provide either Arcane or Divine spellcasting support. Given that my area is a bit low on both kinds of casters, but that my PC has some (minimal) Divine spellcasting ability, I am leaning toward an Arcane spellcaster, overall. Now, spellcasting in general is one of my weak areas, I will admit right off, so I would appreciate any help I can get on this. So, at present, the cohort would be 7th level to start with. Characteristics would be built using the Elite array. My plan would be to make the caster a buffer primary, with some battlefield control as his secondary area. Debuffers and blasting would not be refused, but wouldn't be a very strong area for a cohort, since he will, usually, be 2 levels below the primary PC, and therefore usually be playing above his level. First question: Sorceror, Wizard or school specialized Wizard? Sorceror: much more flexibility in casting spells as appropriate, but a fairly limited repertoire of spells. (Spells per day 6/6/6/4; known 7/5/3/2). Sorcerors, of course, can still use other arcane spells off of scrolls as needed. Wizard: Much larger flexibility in spells known, but limited to only being able to cast, in general, whatever spells he has memorized that morning. Still able to use scrolls, but a "wasted" free feat, since cohorts cannot know/use magic item creation feats. (Spells per day 4/4/3/2/1; known at start all PHB/5+int mod/4/4/2, basic numbers learnable at level) Specialized wizard: Extra spell from the specialized school castable per day at each spell level, but locked out of 2 other schools completely. Likely to be either a Conjuration or Transmutation specialist, likely to give up Evocation & Enchantment; unless advice says otherwise. So, other things I need advice on: Human (extra skill, extra feat) or Gray Elf Wizard (Str -2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int +2) Obviously, the 15 should go into Int, along with the 4th level stat boost. Other advise seems to point to 14 for the Con, 13 for Dex, 8 for Wis, 12 for Cha and 10 for Str. That would be for the Wizard, of course. Swap the 15 & stat boost to Cha for Sorceror, and would seem to point to the 12 going into Int. Any thoughts? Last, but definitely not least, would be the spells known choice. Obviously limited, at least initially, to Open spells only. Spells that I want on the spell list: 1: Grease, Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil 2: Cat's Grace, Glitterdust, Rope Trick & Summon Monster II seem to be the choices. Cat's Grace because the leader is an Archer, and more Dex never goes amiss. 3: Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Dispel Magic and Greater Mage Armor seem to be good choices, but I may be missing other good choices. 4 (Wizard only): Dimension Door and Evard's Black Tentacles? Again, there are other useful spells I know are missing. Would Fly be useful to have right out of the box in place of one of the other spells, or can it wait til I can get him access some other way? Equipment: I have Any access to a masterwork quarterstaff/lesser rod of metamagic extend for 3,600 gp; so I figure that would be a good item for my cohort to buy. With 3,600 gp left, what other items would be good? Vest of Resistance +1, Pearl of Power (1st level (again, I have open access to these)), a ranged weapon?, scrolls of some low level spells (limited to no more than 720 gp in value, either for use or to add to his spell list if Wizard), anything else? Anything else I am missing?