Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grantor 08-09-07, 07:03 PM	I've been checking the LG character's forum and have not really seen a Knight-based tank build. I'm only worried about levels 1-10, since that is as high as a Greyhawk Ruins character needs to plan. I was hoping to start with something like this: Dwarf S:15 D:13 C:14 I:13 W:8 C:12 1: Ranger (Efficient Defender for +1 AC) 2: Knight (Dodge) 3: Fighter (Improved Toughness) 4: Knight (Combat Expertise) [bump Str] 5: Deepwarden 6: Deepwarden (Endurance) 7: Deepwarden 8: Dwarven Defender [bump Con] Looking for tons of AC, darkvision, tons of AC Also, I might consider dumping the Deepwarden track (it's not that helpful for AC with this build) and going with Knight/Fighter/DDefender. Anyone worked with this sort of build?
jstorrie 08-09-07, 08:24 PM	In my opinion there are two good ways to go with Knight, one okay way, and many many sub-optimal ways. The two good ways are–battlefield control (focusing on a reach weapon and Knight 3) and shield-focused (using Shield Slam/Charge to make up for the lack of trip and lack of a two-handed weapon.) The okay way is Charisma-focused, trying to eke the most out of challenges and Intimidate. If you're going for battlefield control, you may as well play a Dwarf; with the 14 Int for Improved Trip (don't ever start with odd Int!) you won't have the points for Charisma anyway. I think the most synergy is to be found in a shield-focused build, since you won't have to put heavy points into Int for Improved Trip–which allows you to leverage your Charisma a little. It's also more City-of-Greyhawk friendly since you're less dependent on a mount and a guisarme to do your thing. You'd want high Cha and Str, Shield Slam/Charge, probably Shield Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, and Divine Might. Knight 4 and Knight 6 are good breakpoints; Fighter levels are necessary; Paladin or Outcast Champion levels round things out. I'd go something like– Human Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 16 1 Knight: Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack 2 Knight: Mounted Combat 3 Paladin of St. Cuthbert: Shield Slam 4 Paladin 5 Paladin 6 Paladin: Divine Might 7 Paladin (Charging Smite Variant) 8 Fighter: Shield Charge 9 Fighter: Weapon Focus (Heavy Pick), Shield Specialization 10 Knight 11 Fighter 12 Fighter: Weapon Specialization (Piercing), Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) 13 Knight 14 Knight: Iron Will 15 Knight: Leadership That puts you at Knight 6 / Paladin 5 / Fighter 4.
Infinitive 08-10-07, 10:49 AM	Okay, I am currently playing a Knight at the moment (level 4 ATM), and i can really vouch for their capabilities as an outstanding tank. I do have a couple of recomendations based on that time: You are not a primary damage dealer. In fact, most knights will have serious difficulty in keeping up with the melee effectiveness of really any other melee class. That's ok; almost all of your abilities are based on defense, not offense. Maximizing the effectiveness of this is key to doing your thing. Once you stop worrying and learn to love lower strength, you'll find that you have a lot of room to play around with in your build. I would recommend 14 charisma for sure; your save DCs on Test of Mettle are not terribly impressive by themselves, so it really does pay to have a decent cha score to boost them. Further, a solid constitution is essential; if you dip below 14, I would question the efficacy of your build. Finally, you want an int of at least 13; Combat Expertise is your very best friend forever when you're playing a Knight, and will increase both your lifespan and the lifespan of your party considerably. One of the other things worth noting about Knights is Mounted Combat for free at second level. Now, to some degree, this is suboptimal; who wouldn't have a more fluid bonus feat? However, you can really turn it to your advantage very quickly. Grab your heavy warhorse (He'll be a melee powerhouse on his own until you get out of APL 4 combat), strap on a lance and shield, and add in spiked armor, and then do the hardest thing you'll ever do... never charge. Saunter into melee range on a double move (100 foot range), drop a Test of Mettle, then Combat Expertise for full and Fight Defensively and let them try to hit you. After third level, your enemies can't 5-foot step, can't withdraw, and have to tumble against a DC 25 (difficult terrain!), and only move very slowly even if they pass the check. Here's an example of what you can reasonably expect to have for tanking by 4th level, presuming Con of 14. HP: 39 AC: 28, 29 against one target (+10 from +1 Heavy Plate (open access), +2 Heavy Shield, +4 Combat Expertise (still limited by BAB), +2 Fighting Defensively, +1 Shield Block). After Knight 4, dropping in for a dip on other classes is great. Fighter gets you a bonus feat and tower shields (I recommend this route), and Paladin 2 gets you a very synergistic save bonus. For this reason, i reccomend humans as the Knight du'jour, just because it keeps the multiclass penalties low. As for PrCs... Pious Templar is never a bad choice. The paladin spell list has many solid tanking and mounted combat spells, healing spells, and all sorts of goodies to improve your efficacy. Plus Mettle. Mettle is amazing. Alternately, Beastmaster is a solid choice, as it increases the replaceability of your mount, plus eventually gives you access to far better mounts than you can normally buy. Also, look at your regional PrCs; sometimes they synergize very nicely. I live in the Shield Lands, so I'm taking my Knight for a dip into Fighter, a level in Pious Templar, and then into the Knight of Holy Shielding, which continues all of the abilities I'll have garnered by that point, plus giving me access to progression on my Pious Templar spells, full BAB, bonus to all Iuzian enemies (the Shield lands are an Iuz Border State region) and eventually 1/day Holy Word as a 20th level caster. Those old Dragon magazone regional PrCs are amazing.
Demoyn 08-10-07, 12:18 PM	I've been wanting to put together a knight build for some time. I haven't thought it all the way through, but here's what I have so far. Ganome Kaniggit Str 12, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14 Feats: Dodge, Titan Fighting, Combat Expertise, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward It's a great base, focusing on aggro management and survival through massive armor class and hp. May need to add fighter levels. Again, I haven't thought it all the way through yet, but I think it'd be the most fun thing ever to play!
Drezden 08-10-07, 12:40 PM	I don't see how you can hold yourself out as a Tank or a Frontliner and forego damage dealing. Most DMs will then just ignore you and attack other squishy members of the party. I think, as a frontliner, you need to at least do credible amounts of damage -- maybe not at the level of the Raging 30 Str Half-Orc, but enough so that enemies feel it. Daren
Demoyn 08-10-07, 02:38 PM	Except in the case of the knight, who can pull aggro through use of his abilities instead of solely through damage like most characters.
KShaver 08-10-07, 02:41 PM	I've always thought that taking only 1 to 3 levels in knight hampers you more than it helps. You penalize yourself with the knight's code, but can barely counteract it with your knights challenges. I'd suggest that if you can't take 4+ levels in knight then you should use some other full BAB class instead.
Mommy was an Orc 08-10-07, 02:46 PM	I'd probably go Ranger 1/Knight 7/Marshal 1/Outcast Champion 2/Wildrunner 4 Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 15 1: Ranger 1: Track, Combat Expertise 2: Knight 1 3: Marshal 1: Improved Trip, Art of War(Cha to Trip) 4: Knight 2: Cha 16 5: Knight 3 6: Outcast Champ 1: Power Attack 7: Outcast Champ 2 8: Knight 4 9: Knight 5: Endurance, Combat Reflexes 10: Wildrunner 1(Balance is a class skill) 11: Wildrunner 2 12: ?: Combat Acrobat I'm not 100% certain what comes next as it would depend on the effectiveness of the Knight Bulwark of Defense. It could be more Knight, Marshal, Outcast Champ, and/or Wildrunner. Or Paladin. The effective Str for trip purposes should look something like this: 3: 18 4: 22(stat boost, +2 Cha Cloak) 6: 24(+2 Gauntlets) 9: 26(+4 Cloak) 11: 32(Scream, +4 Belt) 12: 34(stat boost) 13: 36(+6 Cloak) 14: 38(+6 Belt) That's before +4 for Improved Trip or +5 for an Enlarge Spell...because you're a Knight, they won't be able to ignore you once you start tripping them. And once someone takes damage, you can do credible Power Attack damage against the person who hurt them. And once you're 11th level, you'll have 40' of movement in Mithril Full Plate.
Infinitive 08-10-07, 04:25 PM	Drezden: It depends on the DM. If the DM is just doing his/her best to beat the crap out of the party without regards to RPing, then sure. However, I've sat with several DMs who have the NPCs respond directly to stuff as low as the Fighting Challenge- because I called the big baddie out. Especially with big guys that are fairly stupid, as you face quite commonly at lower levels and still fairly commonly thereafter, the fact that they got called out matters quite a bit. More, if you get your save DCs up, you can take the choice right out of the DM's hands with Test of Mettle.
Drezden 08-11-07, 02:09 AM	Andy - I don't have a problem with your build - taking Wildrunner for the Scream, getting a +6 Belt, taking Power Attack, Outcast Champ for Avenging Strike, and Marshal for Art of War are all offensive decisions. Your build will be able to due credible damage. Some of the other builds were just foregoing Strength and offensive all together. I think that is a big mistake - especially at High APLs. Daren I'd probably go Ranger 1/Knight 7/Marshal 1/Outcast Champion 2/Wildrunner 4 Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 15 1: Ranger 1: Track, Combat Expertise 2: Knight 1 3: Marshal 1: Improved Trip, Art of War(Cha to Trip) 4: Knight 2: Cha 16 5: Knight 3 6: Outcast Champ 1: Power Attack 7: Outcast Champ 2 8: Knight 4 9: Knight 5: Endurance, Combat Reflexes 10: Wildrunner 1(Balance is a class skill) 11: Wildrunner 2 12: ?: Combat Acrobat I'm not 100% certain what comes next as it would depend on the effectiveness of the Knight Bulwark of Defense. It could be more Knight, Marshal, Outcast Champ, and/or Wildrunner. Or Paladin. The effective Str for trip purposes should look something like this: 3: 18 4: 22(stat boost, +2 Cha Cloak) 6: 24(+2 Gauntlets) 9: 26(+4 Cloak) 11: 32(Scream, +4 Belt) 12: 34(stat boost) 13: 36(+6 Cloak) 14: 38(+6 Belt) That's before +4 for Improved Trip or +5 for an Enlarge Spell...because you're a Knight, they won't be able to ignore you once you start tripping them. And once someone takes damage, you can do credible Power Attack damage against the person who hurt them. And once you're 11th level, you'll have 40' of movement in Mithril Full Plate.
Grantor 08-11-07, 03:49 AM	I'm only worried about levels 1-10, since that is as high as a Greyhawk Ruins character needs to plan. With the feedback I have seen, I'm leaning more towards this: I was hoping to start with something like this: Dwarf S:15 D:10 C:16 I:14 W:8 C:12 1: Ranger (Combat Expertise), Trap Expert alternate feature, Cartographer's Affliliation 2: Knight (Improved Trip), Knight's Challenge 3: Marshal (Endurance), Art of War 4: Fighter (Weapon Focus: Guisarme) [bump Str] 5: Knight (Mounted Combat) 6: Knight (Short Haft), Bulwart of Defense [xp/gold penalty] 7: Deepwarden 8: Deepwarden, Stone Warden (Con to AC) [bump Con] 9: Marshal (some useful feat), Motivate something 10: Ranger [useless combat style] [end of xp/gp penalty] 11: retire from Greyhawk Ruins. (Hasn't D&D 4.0 been announced yet? Since I will be underground extensively, I really don't feel the need to do heinous damage to opponents. I expect that in normal corridors and average rooms that they will not be able to get past me to get to the squishies. I already have a paladin, so not interested in continuing that.
Drezden 08-11-07, 09:25 AM	If I were you, I would dump Short Haft for Power attack. There is a reason almost every BDF that wields a 2 handed weapon has this feat - it is that good. Inevitably, you will be fighting at least a few things that will be too big or strong to trip and/or have substantial DR and you will want to have Power Attack to help you in those situations. Short Haft requires a Swift Action to turn on/off - and if you have it on, you no longer have reach. If you buy armor spikes you can still threaten things adjacent to you even if you can't take a 5' adjustment to hit them with the Guisarme. Daren With the feedback I have seen, I'm leaning more towards this: I was hoping to start with something like this: Dwarf S:15 D:10 C:16 I:14 W:8 C:12 1: Ranger (Combat Expertise), Trap Expert alternate feature, Cartographer's Affliliation 2: Knight (Improved Trip), Knight's Challenge 3: Marshal (Endurance), Art of War 4: Fighter (Weapon Focus: Guisarme) [bump Str] 5: Knight (Mounted Combat) 6: Knight (Short Haft), Bulwart of Defense [xp/gold penalty] 7: Deepwarden 8: Deepwarden, Stone Warden (Con to AC) [bump Con] 9: Marshal (some useful feat), Motivate something 10: Ranger [useless combat style] [end of xp/gp penalty] 11: retire from Greyhawk Ruins. (Hasn't D&D 4.0 been announced yet? Since I will be underground extensively, I really don't feel the need to do heinous damage to opponents. I expect that in normal corridors and average rooms that they will not be able to get past me to get to the squishies. I already have a paladin, so not interested in continuing that.
Mommy was an Orc 08-11-07, 09:27 AM	With a 12 Charisma not supported by stat bumps, a level in Marshal isn't a great idea, especially when you're burning a feat on Endurance, getting an XP penalty and taking a level in Ranger 2 eventually anyway - I'd make such a build Ranger 3/Knight 3/Deepwarden 2/Fighter X - that way you gain a lot of extra skill points. Also, Knight 1 doesn't give a feat - you don't have the feat for Improved Trip.
Evanta 08-11-07, 12:40 PM	I'm not that good with optimizing, but one thing I realised is that getting mounted with a lance, is the only way to get use of both your level 3 ability, as well as your shield block. A Knight 4 / Paladin X charger w/ Divine Shield and Might seems to be the way to go. The weakness of your mount should be somewhat compensated by the use of mettle to deflect all attacks to you. It does suck to wait most of your life before you finally get your divine mount though (have to settle for standard heavy warhorse for 8 levels).
cetiken 08-13-07, 03:14 PM	Have you considered a kobald? Small size + natural armor makes them an intresting choice. Not sure how I'd do it... the Dragon Tail feat might come in usefull in dealing some damage and you probably couldn't get highter than 10 STR... Just somthing to consider.
Grantor 08-13-07, 07:03 PM	If I were you, I would dump Short Haft for Power attack. There is a reason almost every BDF that wields a 2 handed weapon has this feat - it is that good. Inevitably, you will be fighting at least a few things that will be too big or strong to trip and/or have substantial DR and you will want to have Power Attack to help you in those situations. Short Haft requires a Swift Action to turn on/off - and if you have it on, you no longer have reach. If you buy armor spikes you can still threaten things adjacent to you even if you can't take a 5' adjustment to hit them with the Guisarme. Daren Short Haft was to allow the use of the Guisarme to trip, regardless of reach. I would ALSO be using armor spikes for the purposes of threatening things. Yes, Power Attack would be nice. But that's the way things go.
Grantor 08-13-07, 07:06 PM	With a 12 Charisma not supported by stat bumps, a level in Marshal isn't a great idea, . The Charisma will be supported by stat items, however. Stacking +2 Str and Cha items to bolster trip is cheaper than buying a +4 item. Also, Knight 1 doesn't give a feat - you don't have the feat for Improved Trip. Yes, I made a mistake as I was copy and pasting the fighter level(s) around. I posted after midnight...that's my excuse.
Grantor 08-13-07, 07:08 PM	Have you considered a kobald? Kobold is not Open Access. I would have considered it if I had received a card, but I think Dwarven Defender levels will do better than size+natural armor anyway.
Grantor 08-13-07, 07:10 PM	I'm not that good with optimizing, but one thing I realised is that getting mounted with a lance, is the only way to get use of both your level 3 ability, as well as your shield block. But, if you end up somewhere in the Greyhawk Ruins where mounts are a handicap, then you are useless to your party. Good idea, just not for the campaign arc. That's also why darkvision was a requirement.
Grantor 08-13-07, 07:42 PM	I'd probably go Ranger 1/Knight 7/Marshal 1/Outcast Champion 2/Wildrunner 4 Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 15 1: Ranger 1: Track, Combat Expertise 2: Knight 1 3: Marshal 1: Improved Trip, Art of War(Cha to Trip) 4: Knight 2: Cha 16 5: Knight 3 This also has an experience penalty. ;) Correcting the build results in: 1: Ranger (Combat Expertise), 2: Fighter (Improved Trip) 3: Knight (Endurance) 4: Marshal Art of War aura 5: Fighter (Weapon Focus: Guisarme) [bump Str] 6: Knight (Short Haft), (Mounted Combat) 7: Knight Bulwart of Defense [xp/gold penalty] 8: Deepwarden 9: Deepwarden, Stone Warden (Con to AC) [bump Con] The effective Str for trip purposes should look something like this: 1: 18 (guisarme) 2: 26 (imp trip) 4: 28 (stat boost, +2 Cha Cloak) 6: 29 (+2 Gauntlets) 9: 30 (+4 Cloak) 10: 31(+4 Belt) That could all be better, but AC looks like this: 1: 16 to 17 2: 18 to 20 (free full plate) 3: 19 to 22 (+1 armor) 6: 20 to 26 (+2 armor) 9: 24 to 33 (+3 armor and Stone Warden) Now, keep in mind that the trip attack is a touch attack, so going the AC route while attacking is very feasible when there are other characters in the party to take advantage of the fallen foe. And that's the AC without a shield. If things get hairy, pull out a shield and switch to a waraxe to get to ACs that are 3 or 4 higher. AC 26 at level 3 is nearly impossible to hit. Sadly, the Bulwart does not come until 7th level, were battlefield control starts to be more difficult against a wider range of movement types
Mommy was an Orc 08-13-07, 07:44 PM	This also has an experience penalty. ;) Correcting the build results in: 1: Ranger (Combat Expertise), 2: Fighter (Improved Trip) 3: Knight (Endurance) 4: Marshal Art of War aura 5: Fighter (Weapon Focus: Guisarme) [bump Str] 6: Knight (Short Haft), (Mounted Combat) 7: Knight Bulwart of Defense [xp/gold penalty] 8: Deepwarden 9: Deepwarden, Stone Warden (Con to AC) [bump Con] If you're a Dwarf...if you're a Half-Elf, it doesn't have one - and you have actual charisma synergy, so buying a +4 Cloak is a good idea.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-13-07, 08:01 PM	I've always thought that taking only 1 to 3 levels in knight hampers you more than it helps. You penalize yourself with the knight's code, but can barely counteract it with your knights challenges. I'd suggest that if you can't take 4+ levels in knight then you should use some other full BAB class instead. You could just go Knight 3, then become non-lawful, lose your measely knight's challenge and gain freedom from knight's code...
BlackNova169 08-15-07, 09:28 AM	My friend plays a gnome knight & his AC is pretty good for lvl 4, I think it was around 30 due to full plate, dodge+titan fighting (+4 AC vs everything larger than small, great for gnomes), and some shield talents, while retaining 40 movement speed while being mounted. One of the coolest things so far that we've done is abused the difficult terrain feature of the knight. When mounted he can wield his lance AND his shield, and w/ armor spikes he threatens 10' all around him. What we do is form a sort of fighting formation with him in the front, melee at his sides, and squishies in the back. When we fight something, the front melee get 1 hit in, then 5' step back, so by the monsters turn we have all moved 5' away. Normally it could just 5' to us & power attack, but since the knight is mounted /w reach, the mob has to takea move action to get up to us. Essentially, we keep denying a full attack and this strategy has proven very effective so far. The only problems with it is that the untrained mages & rogues can't keep formation and keep running out of our awesome formation. Granted we are also vulnerable to AOE spells but so far it hasn't been an issue. Another problem that he regularly has is his riding dog keeps dying, and once its dead he's kind of gimped. Since his mount isn't going to advance in HD like a pally mount, I keep wondering if his poor dog is going to die ALOT at higher APL. Also, he is easily grappled due to his small size. However, this lets him take his mount into areas that larger mounted characters can not easily go. While high AC is important, being able to reduce melee opponents to a single attack is huge, and only doable while mounted (unless you ditch your shield, not a good idea.)
Infinitive 08-15-07, 10:03 AM	I have to agree with Nova's sentiment here, regarding both the mounted control that a Knight brings to the table and the vulnerability of a Knight's mount. I'd recommend looking around in your region for some sort of griffin rider's meta-org; Griffins are just hearty enough that they don't tend to bite the big one as often as mundane mounts.