Low-INT bard/marshal [Archive] - Wizards Community

Low-INT bard/marshal [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bold
04-25-07, 02:52 PM I'm looking at builds for my tenth character, and I've done just about every archetype except for bard. Since he won't see a lot of play, it's quite probable he'll never even make 5th-level, let alone 10th-level; thus, I don't want to do the Sublime Chord build or anything else which wouldn't pay off until higher levels.

I already have the roleplaying hook: Derek Keolander, male model. Really, really, ridiculously good-looking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWpcfA8vY-c
He'd need to have the lowest possible mental attributes: probably an 8 in both INT and WIS. :)

Outside of combat, Derek could be a face (albeit a comically-stupid face :D), with good CHA and maxed Diplomacy and Gather Info. In combat, his modus operandi would be to have the Motivate Dexterity and Motivate Attack auras up, and in the first round of combat he'd cast Inspirational Boost and then do the Inspire Courage bardic music. Derek will have a decent chance of going first (with Improved Init he'll have an init mod of +9), so everyone will benefit immediately from the +3 attack / +2 damage.

But then, what do I do after the first round? I think what I’d prefer to do (in part because it’s very different from my other characters) is the following:

Human: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 8, Int 8, Cha 16

1. Bard: Improved Initiative, Extra Music
2. Bard
3. Marshal: Improved Toughness
4. Marshal (+1 CON)
5. Barbarian
6. Dragon Disciple: Extra Rage
7. Dragon Disciple (+2 STR)
8. Dragon Disciple (+1 CON)
9. Dragon Disciple: Power Attack, (+2 STR)

Rage will boost my STR up to 18, and the bardsong & aura will hopefully compensate for his weak BAB. If/when I make it to DD2 and DD4, I'll get the STR bumps there as well. I'll never be a primary damage dealer, but rather I'd be a buffer who can also jump into combat as a light fighter with a reach weapon, providing a bit of damage and a flank. At lower levels before I take barbarian, my primary melee contribution would be to command a riding dog (maxed Handle Animal for the first few levels, plus CHA modifier).

As you review this build, keep in mind that he’ll probably never reach 5th-level or higher, and that I want to stay true to the inspiration (very pretty, but very stupid). Furthermore, he’d be the sixth player in a balanced party made for the Greyhawk Ruins mods.

Any suggestions?
bitznarf
04-25-07, 03:10 PM You may want to consider a archery oriented bard. It would mean delaying Improved Init and/or Extra Muisc though. Something like this...

Human: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 8, Int 8, Cha 16

1. Bard: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Bard
3. Marshal: Rapid Shot
4. Marshal
5. Bard
6. Bard: Improved Init

You could also play around with retraining if you want to be able to have at least 3 uses of bardic music from day one. You could also toss in a couple of barb levels if you want, giving you flexibility and power if it is needed.

Same stat array

1. Bard: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Bard
3. Marshal: Rapid Shot
4. Marshal
5. Barb
6. Barb: Extra Rage -> 18 str bow

The second level of Barb nets you uncanny dodge, useful for dealing with NPCs that don't have 6 levels of Rogue. At later levels you could consider power attack anyway to give yourself the ability to rage, wade in, and help out where needed.

:twocents:
amnuxoll
04-25-07, 04:14 PM Warchanter.
Bold
04-25-07, 04:32 PM You may want to consider a archery oriented bard.

I already have a dedicated archer, and a bard/archer would be inferior to my current one; I'd rather do something different. Or if I'm going to repeat one of my other nine characters, it would need to be better than its predecessor. :)

You could also play around with retraining if you want to be able to have at least 3 uses of bardic music from day one.

Oooo, that's a good idea--I came up with my suggested build prior to the 597 LGCS, so it doesn't take advantage of any retraining. That might be a good way to reorder the feats, or at least minimize cross-class skills.
Bold
04-25-07, 05:20 PM Warchanter.

It's hard to get the Combat Expertise prereq with an 8 INT...
Timlagor
04-26-07, 01:40 PM Make him a Wood Elf and you can get the Int down to 6 :D
Bold
04-26-07, 05:00 PM Make him a Wood Elf and you can get the Int down to 6 :D

Ha! That's very tempting. ;)

I just did some comparisons at 5th- and 9th-level between my build and a straight damage-dealer, and it's a lot closer than I would've imagined. (I'm not too worried about APL2 or APL4: at those levels, I command the riding dog to attack in the first round, and then I run around with a CLW wand to function as a secondary healer.)

5th-level
Bard/Marshal/Barbarian (raging + bardsong):

Hitpoints: 52
Atk: +11, 1d10 +9
Fort: +9, Reflex: +5, Will: +7

Dwarven Fighter (18 STR & 16 CON; Feats: WF, WS, Power Attack, Iron Will, Imp. Init):

Hitpoints: 49
Atk: +11, 1d10 +9
Fort: +7, Reflex: +2, Will: +3

9th-level
Bard/Marshal/Barbarian/Dragon Disciple (raging + bardsong):

Hitpoints: 109
Atk: +16/+11, 1d10 +12
Fort: +12, Reflex: +6, Will: +9

Dwarven Fighter/Barbarian (stats as above, plus Rage; Feats as above, plus Extra Rage, Melee Weapon Mastery):

Hitpoints: 117
Atk: +19/+14, 1d10 +14
Fort: +13, Reflex: +3, Will: +6

The above is a quick 'n' dirty back-of-the-envelope comparison, just to give me a rough idea of how my "light fighter" would compare to a dedicated combat character with a vanilla iconic build. I'll never expect to play the role of primary damage-dealer, but at least this shows me that the character would be effective after the first round of Inspirational Boost + Bardic Music.

The regular fighter/barbarian has the advantage of getting the iterative attack sooner, and really pulls ahead at 9th-level with the Melee Weapon Mastery Feat. Without that feat, my bard-barian/marshal/DD would've had the same damage, and his attack bonus would only be lower by 1. Still, the ability to act as a "face" during social interactions and being able to give everyone in the party +3 attack and +2 damage (and +3 on Init and DEX checks) is an acceptable tradeoff in my opinion.

Any suggestions?
JJeff
04-27-07, 01:17 AM Can't think of any suggestions yet, but I think we can name this the "Dumb Blonde Cheerleader turned Buffy" build?

You could always do the battelcry "Save the Cheerleader! Save the World!"
dark_poet
04-27-07, 11:48 AM Hmmm...I'm thinking of a dumb blonde Pally for Ruins. Good physical stats and chr with dumped int and wis. It hit hard cause I look good :P

I'm not sure if you can fit Shock Trooper into the build (retrain Extra Music and take out Imp Toughness?) but it can be quite effective when combined with spells like blur/displacement/mirror image. Although by the time you inspire and buff combat at higher lvls would prob be over, so this is more of an alt when you got a chance to pre-buff.
ragecage79
05-01-07, 09:17 PM Any suggestions?

Do as you are trained... AND KILL THE MALAYSIAN PRIME MINISTER! :D
Lomiat
05-01-07, 10:10 PM I've never seen that movie, but the preview's cameos intrigued me.

Anyway, having played a high-CHA bard who's recently started to find that rounds 2 through the end of the combat start to drag a bit (and worse when some silly archer casts some spell giving a morale bonus to hit!), I still don't know that I'd prefer to make my bard a secondary melee combatant than a bard. Now that Lyric Spell and Extra Music can be taken at first level, I'd consider those early, along with Improved Initiative. Between wands (with UMD), Grease and bardic music, you should be set for a few levels.

Or just go kill Furyondian ambassadors, or whatever it is...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bold 04-25-07, 02:52 PM	I'm looking at builds for my tenth character, and I've done just about every archetype except for bard. Since he won't see a lot of play, it's quite probable he'll never even make 5th-level, let alone 10th-level; thus, I don't want to do the Sublime Chord build or anything else which wouldn't pay off until higher levels. I already have the roleplaying hook: Derek Keolander, male model. Really, really, ridiculously good-looking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWpcfA8vY-c He'd need to have the lowest possible mental attributes: probably an 8 in both INT and WIS. :) Outside of combat, Derek could be a face (albeit a comically-stupid face :D), with good CHA and maxed Diplomacy and Gather Info. In combat, his modus operandi would be to have the Motivate Dexterity and Motivate Attack auras up, and in the first round of combat he'd cast Inspirational Boost and then do the Inspire Courage bardic music. Derek will have a decent chance of going first (with Improved Init he'll have an init mod of +9), so everyone will benefit immediately from the +3 attack / +2 damage. But then, what do I do after the first round? I think what I’d prefer to do (in part because it’s very different from my other characters) is the following: Human: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 8, Int 8, Cha 16 1. Bard: Improved Initiative, Extra Music 2. Bard 3. Marshal: Improved Toughness 4. Marshal (+1 CON) 5. Barbarian 6. Dragon Disciple: Extra Rage 7. Dragon Disciple (+2 STR) 8. Dragon Disciple (+1 CON) 9. Dragon Disciple: Power Attack, (+2 STR) Rage will boost my STR up to 18, and the bardsong & aura will hopefully compensate for his weak BAB. If/when I make it to DD2 and DD4, I'll get the STR bumps there as well. I'll never be a primary damage dealer, but rather I'd be a buffer who can also jump into combat as a light fighter with a reach weapon, providing a bit of damage and a flank. At lower levels before I take barbarian, my primary melee contribution would be to command a riding dog (maxed Handle Animal for the first few levels, plus CHA modifier). As you review this build, keep in mind that he’ll probably never reach 5th-level or higher, and that I want to stay true to the inspiration (very pretty, but very stupid). Furthermore, he’d be the sixth player in a balanced party made for the Greyhawk Ruins mods. Any suggestions?
bitznarf 04-25-07, 03:10 PM	You may want to consider a archery oriented bard. It would mean delaying Improved Init and/or Extra Muisc though. Something like this... Human: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 8, Int 8, Cha 16 1. Bard: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2. Bard 3. Marshal: Rapid Shot 4. Marshal 5. Bard 6. Bard: Improved Init You could also play around with retraining if you want to be able to have at least 3 uses of bardic music from day one. You could also toss in a couple of barb levels if you want, giving you flexibility and power if it is needed. Same stat array 1. Bard: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2. Bard 3. Marshal: Rapid Shot 4. Marshal 5. Barb 6. Barb: Extra Rage -> 18 str bow The second level of Barb nets you uncanny dodge, useful for dealing with NPCs that don't have 6 levels of Rogue. At later levels you could consider power attack anyway to give yourself the ability to rage, wade in, and help out where needed. :twocents:
amnuxoll 04-25-07, 04:14 PM	Warchanter.
Bold 04-25-07, 04:32 PM	You may want to consider a archery oriented bard. I already have a dedicated archer, and a bard/archer would be inferior to my current one; I'd rather do something different. Or if I'm going to repeat one of my other nine characters, it would need to be better than its predecessor. :) You could also play around with retraining if you want to be able to have at least 3 uses of bardic music from day one. Oooo, that's a good idea--I came up with my suggested build prior to the 597 LGCS, so it doesn't take advantage of any retraining. That might be a good way to reorder the feats, or at least minimize cross-class skills.
Bold 04-25-07, 05:20 PM	Warchanter. It's hard to get the Combat Expertise prereq with an 8 INT...
Timlagor 04-26-07, 01:40 PM	Make him a Wood Elf and you can get the Int down to 6 :D
Bold 04-26-07, 05:00 PM	Make him a Wood Elf and you can get the Int down to 6 :D Ha! That's very tempting. ;) I just did some comparisons at 5th- and 9th-level between my build and a straight damage-dealer, and it's a lot closer than I would've imagined. (I'm not too worried about APL2 or APL4: at those levels, I command the riding dog to attack in the first round, and then I run around with a CLW wand to function as a secondary healer.) 5th-level Bard/Marshal/Barbarian (raging + bardsong): Hitpoints: 52 Atk: +11, 1d10 +9 Fort: +9, Reflex: +5, Will: +7 Dwarven Fighter (18 STR & 16 CON; Feats: WF, WS, Power Attack, Iron Will, Imp. Init): Hitpoints: 49 Atk: +11, 1d10 +9 Fort: +7, Reflex: +2, Will: +3 9th-level Bard/Marshal/Barbarian/Dragon Disciple (raging + bardsong): Hitpoints: 109 Atk: +16/+11, 1d10 +12 Fort: +12, Reflex: +6, Will: +9 Dwarven Fighter/Barbarian (stats as above, plus Rage; Feats as above, plus Extra Rage, Melee Weapon Mastery): Hitpoints: 117 Atk: +19/+14, 1d10 +14 Fort: +13, Reflex: +3, Will: +6 The above is a quick 'n' dirty back-of-the-envelope comparison, just to give me a rough idea of how my "light fighter" would compare to a dedicated combat character with a vanilla iconic build. I'll never expect to play the role of primary damage-dealer, but at least this shows me that the character would be effective after the first round of Inspirational Boost + Bardic Music. The regular fighter/barbarian has the advantage of getting the iterative attack sooner, and really pulls ahead at 9th-level with the Melee Weapon Mastery Feat. Without that feat, my bard-barian/marshal/DD would've had the same damage, and his attack bonus would only be lower by 1. Still, the ability to act as a "face" during social interactions and being able to give everyone in the party +3 attack and +2 damage (and +3 on Init and DEX checks) is an acceptable tradeoff in my opinion. Any suggestions?
JJeff 04-27-07, 01:17 AM	Can't think of any suggestions yet, but I think we can name this the "Dumb Blonde Cheerleader turned Buffy" build? You could always do the battelcry "Save the Cheerleader! Save the World!"
dark_poet 04-27-07, 11:48 AM	Hmmm...I'm thinking of a dumb blonde Pally for Ruins. Good physical stats and chr with dumped int and wis. It hit hard cause I look good :P I'm not sure if you can fit Shock Trooper into the build (retrain Extra Music and take out Imp Toughness?) but it can be quite effective when combined with spells like blur/displacement/mirror image. Although by the time you inspire and buff combat at higher lvls would prob be over, so this is more of an alt when you got a chance to pre-buff.
ragecage79 05-01-07, 09:17 PM	Any suggestions? Do as you are trained... AND KILL THE MALAYSIAN PRIME MINISTER! :D
Lomiat 05-01-07, 10:10 PM	I've never seen that movie, but the preview's cameos intrigued me. Anyway, having played a high-CHA bard who's recently started to find that rounds 2 through the end of the combat start to drag a bit (and worse when some silly archer casts some spell giving a morale bonus to hit!), I still don't know that I'd prefer to make my bard a secondary melee combatant than a bard. Now that Lyric Spell and Extra Music can be taken at first level, I'd consider those early, along with Improved Initiative. Between wands (with UMD), Grease and bardic music, you should be set for a few levels. Or just go kill Furyondian ambassadors, or whatever it is...