Mad Foam Rager or Twf Rend? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mad Foam Rager or Twf Rend? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ancillary
09-20-07, 07:30 PM When I get level 15 at the Con I am going to on the 5th (assuming enough high level tables make and I don't die) I will have to choose a feat. I am a tank and am trying to choose between offence and defence. Twf rend will mean an extra 30.5 points of damage stacked onto my full attack, which is nothing to sneeze at. Mad Foam Rager is the ultimate get out of jail free card. Basically, when you take damage or an effect from a source, you can have it kick in at the end of your next turn. Given the very short nature of high level combats that is huge, since I may only get targeted by one relevant thing a combat. My will save is my weak point, although I have shored it up as much as I can. Dead things tend not to inspire will saves though. I am not sure which to choose, so I am asking for advice.
Eagle Prince
09-20-07, 08:44 PM I'd probably take Rend or maybe Close-Quarter Fighting.
Ancillary
09-20-07, 08:50 PM I am so not worried about grapple. It is a solid choice for most tanks though. In fact, I ran a mod with purple worms and stuff in it at a con last month, and I would be like "I try and grab you". Then I would look at the player expectantly. :)

One vote for Rend, I also think it would look cool to rend something. Looking cool is important to me as well. Although being able to ignore the fact that the prismatic spray just planeshifted you for one round is pretty cool as well.
JamesMaissen
09-21-07, 12:09 AM When I get level 15 at the Con I am going to on the 5th (assuming enough high level tables make and I don't die) I will have to choose a feat. I am a tank and am trying to choose between offence and defence. Twf rend will mean an extra 30.5 points of damage stacked onto my full attack, which is nothing to sneeze at. Mad Foam Rager is the ultimate get out of jail free card. Basically, when you take damage or an effect from a source, you can have it kick in at the end of your next turn. Given the very short nature of high level combats that is huge, since I may only get targeted by one relevant thing a combat. My will save is my weak point, although I have shored it up as much as I can. Dead things tend not to inspire will saves though. I am not sure which to choose, so I am asking for advice.

A question: how many things get to live when you get to full attack them?

-James
Timlagor
09-21-07, 10:22 AM I'd have to go with the Mad Foam Rager. I reckon you must do enough damage that being around for one more full attack will make a lot more difference than the rend.
Ancillary
09-21-07, 12:18 PM A question: how many things get to live when you get to full attack them?

-James

Good point. I would not say that I kill anything in one full attack, but when you add in the rest of the party focusing fire, there tends to be stuff leftover. Keeping me in the combat to contribute that full attack for another round could be huge though.
solbergb
09-27-07, 01:02 PM Right. I have that problem with my monk. A lot of times I have attacks left over. When it is still standing, it usually has a lot more than 30-40 hitpoints left.

Mad foam rager means you GET that full attack. Two weapon rend means on the rare enemy that doesn't die in a full attack you do 30-40 points more.
Ancillary
09-27-07, 04:54 PM One thing I could do with 2WFR is it only works once per enemy. So If I am standing next to two enemies I could rend each, making the damage amount go up 30 more. It would be somewhat likely that I could get two enemies, I would need to use haste on my off-hand attack. This would give me one chance on each enemy at +31 with the off-hand and the main would be at +31 and +26 and +21 assuming only haste and no power attack. So If their AC was only 30 or so 3 of the attacks would only miss on a 1, and with 2 chances at the fourth my odds of 2 rends would probably be 85% or so. The rend does d6 +27 damage, so it will max at out 33 possible, not 40.
solbergb
09-27-07, 05:15 PM Maybe your experience is different. Mine is that I don't usually like to stand next to two sturdy melee enemies, and if I do my primary goal is to get one all the way dead, not split attacks. (two bad guys with 80 extra damage between them standing is not as good as one guy all the way dead and the other untouched)
Ancillary
09-27-07, 05:46 PM There is no reason they both need to be sturdy melee enemies, they could be other types as well. But it is true that concentrating fire is better. I'm probably going Mad Foam Rager but the idea of literally tearing my enemies apart is cool as well.
copper_wyrmling
10-05-07, 06:19 PM Just to check... you have Str 46? That seems high, even by tank standards. Is this a bear warrior / dragon disciple or something?
jstorrie
10-05-07, 10:27 PM 20 base plus 6 belt plus 2 inherent plus 16 (brown bear form) + 2 dragon disciple is 46... that's assuming a build something like Half-orc Barbarian 2 / Hexblade 4 / Dragon Disciple 2 / Bear Warrior 5. Possible at CL 13, if you have an insane amount of wealth (for the +6 belt and +2 inherent...)
copper_wyrmling
10-06-07, 12:06 AM 20 base plus 6 belt plus 2 inherent plus 16 (brown bear form) + 2 dragon disciple is 46... that's assuming a build something like Half-orc Barbarian 2 / Hexblade 4 / Dragon Disciple 2 / Bear Warrior 5. Possible at CL 13, if you have an insane amount of wealth (for the +6 belt and +2 inherent...)

If I understood correctly, it's his L15 feat, so you could squeeze in two warshaper levels, which would make the money requirements easier. I'm just kind of surprised at the prospect of a bear two-weapon-fighting ;), so I just wanted to check he's not miscalculating the Rend damage.
jstorrie
10-06-07, 05:35 PM I'm unsure myself, if he is a Bear Warrior–natural weapons won't activate Two-Weapon Rend, and bears can't hold normal manufactured weapons. But he could be TWF-ing with a mouthpick weapon and armor spikes, I guess.
Mommy was an Orc
10-07-07, 10:03 AM If it is the:
Monk 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Bear Warrior 6/Warshaper 2 kind of build, he's doing a flurry of blows with his 'feet' while doing a set of natural attacks as secondary attacks.

So with TWF it would be:
Kick/Iterative Kick/Iterative Kick 2/Haste?
Flurry
TWF
Ancillary
10-08-07, 07:21 PM My strength is 20 base, 3 bumps, 1 "extra" from a mod, 4 warshaper, 16 brown bear, 2 ioun stone, so 46. It is my actual strength as I am now 14 after this weekend.

As for the Rend, I have TWF from my ranger levels and improved unarmed strike as a prereq for improved grapple so it all kind of fell together. I punch as my primary, and do a headbutt, hip check, or something as my "off-hand" and then have a secondary bite and claw. I have to give up one of my primary attacks (a claw) in order to have unarmed strike be my primary according to "rules of the game" web site article. It is not totally official but it is a reasonable interpretation that I have not experienced table variation with.

I am a wood elf, and a belt would be subsumed into me according to the LGCS p.18 since I am becoming large. I do good damage on a full attack now, if I had a mouthpick weapon it would get a little silly (both in looks and in damage output). Plus I just dropped most of my money making my necklace of three natural weapons sacred, so getting mouthpick access now would be frustrating.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ancillary 09-20-07, 07:30 PM	When I get level 15 at the Con I am going to on the 5th (assuming enough high level tables make and I don't die) I will have to choose a feat. I am a tank and am trying to choose between offence and defence. Twf rend will mean an extra 30.5 points of damage stacked onto my full attack, which is nothing to sneeze at. Mad Foam Rager is the ultimate get out of jail free card. Basically, when you take damage or an effect from a source, you can have it kick in at the end of your next turn. Given the very short nature of high level combats that is huge, since I may only get targeted by one relevant thing a combat. My will save is my weak point, although I have shored it up as much as I can. Dead things tend not to inspire will saves though. I am not sure which to choose, so I am asking for advice.
Eagle Prince 09-20-07, 08:44 PM	I'd probably take Rend or maybe Close-Quarter Fighting.
Ancillary 09-20-07, 08:50 PM	I am so not worried about grapple. It is a solid choice for most tanks though. In fact, I ran a mod with purple worms and stuff in it at a con last month, and I would be like "I try and grab you". Then I would look at the player expectantly. :) One vote for Rend, I also think it would look cool to rend something. Looking cool is important to me as well. Although being able to ignore the fact that the prismatic spray just planeshifted you for one round is pretty cool as well.
JamesMaissen 09-21-07, 12:09 AM	When I get level 15 at the Con I am going to on the 5th (assuming enough high level tables make and I don't die) I will have to choose a feat. I am a tank and am trying to choose between offence and defence. Twf rend will mean an extra 30.5 points of damage stacked onto my full attack, which is nothing to sneeze at. Mad Foam Rager is the ultimate get out of jail free card. Basically, when you take damage or an effect from a source, you can have it kick in at the end of your next turn. Given the very short nature of high level combats that is huge, since I may only get targeted by one relevant thing a combat. My will save is my weak point, although I have shored it up as much as I can. Dead things tend not to inspire will saves though. I am not sure which to choose, so I am asking for advice. A question: how many things get to live when you get to full attack them? -James
Timlagor 09-21-07, 10:22 AM	I'd have to go with the Mad Foam Rager. I reckon you must do enough damage that being around for one more full attack will make a lot more difference than the rend.
Ancillary 09-21-07, 12:18 PM	A question: how many things get to live when you get to full attack them? -James Good point. I would not say that I kill anything in one full attack, but when you add in the rest of the party focusing fire, there tends to be stuff leftover. Keeping me in the combat to contribute that full attack for another round could be huge though.
solbergb 09-27-07, 01:02 PM	Right. I have that problem with my monk. A lot of times I have attacks left over. When it is still standing, it usually has a lot more than 30-40 hitpoints left. Mad foam rager means you GET that full attack. Two weapon rend means on the rare enemy that doesn't die in a full attack you do 30-40 points more.
Ancillary 09-27-07, 04:54 PM	One thing I could do with 2WFR is it only works once per enemy. So If I am standing next to two enemies I could rend each, making the damage amount go up 30 more. It would be somewhat likely that I could get two enemies, I would need to use haste on my off-hand attack. This would give me one chance on each enemy at +31 with the off-hand and the main would be at +31 and +26 and +21 assuming only haste and no power attack. So If their AC was only 30 or so 3 of the attacks would only miss on a 1, and with 2 chances at the fourth my odds of 2 rends would probably be 85% or so. The rend does d6 +27 damage, so it will max at out 33 possible, not 40.
solbergb 09-27-07, 05:15 PM	Maybe your experience is different. Mine is that I don't usually like to stand next to two sturdy melee enemies, and if I do my primary goal is to get one all the way dead, not split attacks. (two bad guys with 80 extra damage between them standing is not as good as one guy all the way dead and the other untouched)
Ancillary 09-27-07, 05:46 PM	There is no reason they both need to be sturdy melee enemies, they could be other types as well. But it is true that concentrating fire is better. I'm probably going Mad Foam Rager but the idea of literally tearing my enemies apart is cool as well.
copper_wyrmling 10-05-07, 06:19 PM	Just to check... you have Str 46? That seems high, even by tank standards. Is this a bear warrior / dragon disciple or something?
jstorrie 10-05-07, 10:27 PM	20 base plus 6 belt plus 2 inherent plus 16 (brown bear form) + 2 dragon disciple is 46... that's assuming a build something like Half-orc Barbarian 2 / Hexblade 4 / Dragon Disciple 2 / Bear Warrior 5. Possible at CL 13, if you have an insane amount of wealth (for the +6 belt and +2 inherent...)
copper_wyrmling 10-06-07, 12:06 AM	20 base plus 6 belt plus 2 inherent plus 16 (brown bear form) + 2 dragon disciple is 46... that's assuming a build something like Half-orc Barbarian 2 / Hexblade 4 / Dragon Disciple 2 / Bear Warrior 5. Possible at CL 13, if you have an insane amount of wealth (for the +6 belt and +2 inherent...) If I understood correctly, it's his L15 feat, so you could squeeze in two warshaper levels, which would make the money requirements easier. I'm just kind of surprised at the prospect of a bear two-weapon-fighting ;), so I just wanted to check he's not miscalculating the Rend damage.
jstorrie 10-06-07, 05:35 PM	I'm unsure myself, if he is a Bear Warrior–natural weapons won't activate Two-Weapon Rend, and bears can't hold normal manufactured weapons. But he could be TWF-ing with a mouthpick weapon and armor spikes, I guess.
Mommy was an Orc 10-07-07, 10:03 AM	If it is the: Monk 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Bear Warrior 6/Warshaper 2 kind of build, he's doing a flurry of blows with his 'feet' while doing a set of natural attacks as secondary attacks. So with TWF it would be: Kick/Iterative Kick/Iterative Kick 2/Haste? Flurry TWF
Ancillary 10-08-07, 07:21 PM	My strength is 20 base, 3 bumps, 1 "extra" from a mod, 4 warshaper, 16 brown bear, 2 ioun stone, so 46. It is my actual strength as I am now 14 after this weekend. As for the Rend, I have TWF from my ranger levels and improved unarmed strike as a prereq for improved grapple so it all kind of fell together. I punch as my primary, and do a headbutt, hip check, or something as my "off-hand" and then have a secondary bite and claw. I have to give up one of my primary attacks (a claw) in order to have unarmed strike be my primary according to "rules of the game" web site article. It is not totally official but it is a reasonable interpretation that I have not experienced table variation with. I am a wood elf, and a belt would be subsumed into me according to the LGCS p.18 since I am becoming large. I do good damage on a full attack now, if I had a mouthpick weapon it would get a little silly (both in looks and in damage output). Plus I just dropped most of my money making my necklace of three natural weapons sacred, so getting mouthpick access now would be frustrating.