Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yobtar 11-15-07, 10:51 AM	I plan on going to Drunken master eventually and was wondering what do you think would be more helpful Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple as my bonus feat at lvl 1. (I am very new to LG this is going to be my first PC)
MwaO 11-15-07, 11:23 AM	I actually like both - you buy Stunning Fist as your bonus Monk feat and then get Improved Grappling with your 1st level one. There are some Dex issues with Improved Grappling when you do that, but that's why Wood Elf Monks can be popular.
yobtar 11-15-07, 11:31 AM	eventually i want to be a drunken master which means at some point i need to get greater fortitude when do you think i should take it my starting stats i was think of being human 16 str 14 dex 14 con 10 int 12 wis 8 cha and i was going to take dodge and some other feat not sure of yet which i would like some suggestions on. thanks
JamesMaissen 11-15-07, 11:43 AM	I plan on going to Drunken master eventually and was wondering what do you think would be more helpful Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple as my bonus feat at lvl 1. (I am very new to LG this is going to be my first PC) My first advice to you is to fully plan out your character. This plan can (and likely should) change as they level. Not having such a plan is the number 1 way for people to wind up with a character that they are not happy with how they turned out. My second piece of advice is not to be blinded by one gimmick that a PrC offers, or simply the name of a PrC. Drunken Master might be a perfect fit for what you want.. or it could just be a really cool name or have one gimmick that you have been dazzled by. I don't know, but make sure that you do. After that decide basic things about your character. What role (or roles) will they fill in the party? How do you need to go about achieving that? What levels will they be below or above the normal power curve? Towards the specific question: Stunning fist is a nice feat. Improved grapple is a very nice feat. If you can manage both that's great. But consider what you might give up by trying to do so. In the case of Drunken Master you are going to be sacrificing some feats to qualify for it, so spending a feat to get both stunning fist and improved grapple is going to eat into higher level feat slots. Don't make the decision in a vacuum, but design the character as a whole. -James
yobtar 11-15-07, 12:40 PM	well the pre reqs for drunken master is dodge (Taking at lvl 1) greater fort ( which i am thinking of taking as my lvl 3 feat) 8 tumble (which can get by lvl 4) evasion (which i get at lvl 2 as monk) base attatck and unarmed attack +4 ( how do you calculate your base att bonus I am confused) ( i did read up about and seems like the PC i want to play kind of hit and run and hard to hit) I am not sure what i want to take as my bonus feat at lvl 1 i am thinking of taking monk to lvl 5 to get the purity of body for the disease immunity (not 100% on this might just jump right into drunken master) so any suggestions or comments on my plan would be great thanks
bitznarf 11-15-07, 01:01 PM	well the pre reqs for drunken master is dodge (Taking at lvl 1) greater fort ( which i am thinking of taking as my lvl 3 feat) 8 tumble (which can get by lvl 4) evasion (which i get at lvl 2 as monk) base attatck and unarmed attack +4 ( how do you calculate your base att bonus I am confused) Your max ranks is character level + 3, so you need to be level 5 before you can possibly have 8 ranks in anything. Your base attack bonus (BAB) is listed in your class description. For example a wizard gets BAB 5 at level 10, a fighter gets it at level 5, a monk gets it at level 7. If you have multiclassed simply add the BAB given to you by each class to reach your total BAB.
yobtar 11-15-07, 01:06 PM	so at lvl 6 i would have a bab of +4 so instead of lvl 7 monk i could then be a Drunken master correct
bitznarf 11-15-07, 01:35 PM	That is correct.
delewobmesid 11-15-07, 02:34 PM	Drunken Master requires campaign documentation (AR or Meta-Org); have you found a meta org that will grant you access?
yobtar 11-15-07, 03:01 PM	Drunken Master requires campaign documentation (AR or Meta-Org); have you found a meta org that will grant you access? what is AR or Meta-Org i am new to LG
bitznarf 11-15-07, 03:19 PM	Basically what it comes down to is that in order to use *anything* on your PC you need campaign documentation that says you can use it. The LGCS serves as campaign documentation for a fair amount of things that everyone can use (most of the PHB and DMG classes, feats, and skills among other things). To use anything else, you need campaign documentation from another source. Adventure records (ARs) are one way way to obtain the needed campaign documentation. If you don't know what the LGCS or ARs are, look here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/welcome) on the right hand side of the page.
KarmaInferno 11-15-07, 03:27 PM	All feats, classes, and other items in Living Greyhawk have access categories. "Open" access means you can take it as soon as you qualify for it. "Closed" access means that you can't take it without special permission. The only ways you can change an item or option from "Closed" to "Open" is to get access during adventures, or from joining a meta-organization. When you play a Living Greyhawk adventure, you end up with an Adventure Record. On this document is listed any items you can now take as Open Access. Some Open Access items are permanent, some are just temporary. The AR will tell you which kind it is. Meta-Organizations, or Meta-Orgs, are in-game groups set up by your local Triads. For example, your region might have a monk organization that your character can join. When he joins, he gets some benefits which sometimes include Open access to items or options that are normally Closed. If you have not yet done so, download the Living Greyhawk Campaign Standards from here: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/welcome It details in the back what is Open and what is Closed. -karma
bitznarf 11-15-07, 03:55 PM	All feats, classes, and other items in Living Greyhawk have access categories. "Open" access means you can take it as soon as you qualify for it. "Closed" access means that you can't take it without special permission. To clarify, there is no way to change anything from Closed to Open. Closed means that no PC can use it, ever. There are ways to get access to unlisted items however as described by Karma.
yobtar 11-15-07, 05:23 PM	didnt mean to repost hit back on accident
KarmaInferno 11-15-07, 05:27 PM	Yeah, I was simplifying a bit. The main part to remember is, unless you specifically have an official LG document saying that a thing is Open for you, you cannot take that thing. The LGCS counts as such a document, as are the Dispel Confusion update articles posted on the Living Greyhawk website. Adventure Records and Meta-Org Records are another form of official document. There's even a few old 1/3rd or half page certificates here and there that are still legal, though I don't think any have been issued in recently. what is AR or Meta-Org i am new to LG AR is Adventure Record. It is a piece of paper you get at the end of playing a Living Greyhawk adventure that lists how much gold and experience you get from the adventure. It also has information on what new things you can buy with your gold, as well as stuff like what favors you earned from various people or organizations, if you got any curses, that sort of thing. basically a document stating "You got this stuff out of playing this event". Meta-org is short for Meta-Organization. If your region has, say, an order of knights dedicated to something, that might be a meta-org your character can join. Joining give benefits, but usually also has responsibilities. -karma
kjenks 11-16-07, 03:49 PM	My advice: Don't play a monk as your first LG character. The 28-point buy doesn't give you enough points to give your monk the ability scores that a monk really needs. LG's haphazard access to monk-oriented magic items makes it likely that you won't have all of the equipment you need. And if you don't have the stats and equipment you need, you'll die. A lot. Play something easier as your first LG character. Make a cleric of Pelor -- you can't go wrong there. Clerics are easy to play, useful at the table and they rarely die. As you play your cleric, talk to the other players and watch the melee-oriented characters. You're likely to learn some valuable lessons before you start your first monk.
yobtar 11-16-07, 06:21 PM	man i don't wanna die haha monks sound really fun though My 2 friend are playing a cleric and a pally and the other 2 people playing are a wiz and a ranger so I Figured I could play the monk and kinda sit in the back and wait for my oppertunity to go in an wreck shop My advice: Don't play a monk as your first LG character. The 28-point buy doesn't give you enough points to give your monk the ability scores that a monk really needs. LG's haphazard access to monk-oriented magic items makes it likely that you won't have all of the equipment you need. And if you don't have the stats and equipment you need, you'll die. A lot. Play something easier as your first LG character. Make a cleric of Pelor -- you can't go wrong there. Clerics are easy to play, useful at the table and they rarely die. As you play your cleric, talk to the other players and watch the melee-oriented characters. You're likely to learn some valuable lessons before you start your first monk.
delewobmesid 11-16-07, 06:29 PM	with your existing party, a scout building into whirling dervish would be a stronger damage dealer.
Lomiat 11-26-07, 12:21 AM	man i don't wanna die haha monks sound really fun though My 2 friend are playing a cleric and a pally and the other 2 people playing are a wiz and a ranger so I Figured I could play the monk and kinda sit in the back and wait for my oppertunity to go in an wreck shop Do you know what sort of Paladin your friend is going to play? If it's a Spirited Charging mounted Paladin, your party will need a dedicated front-liner. What sort of Ranger is your friend likely to play? Archer or two-weapon fighter? If it's an archer, see above. If it's a two-weapon fighter, you might want either a secondary healer or someone who can do loads of damage (with Power Attack). Nonetheless, I disagree with Ken Jenks, here: There's only so much time left in the campaign. You'll be able to play to your heart's content for the next year, but if you want to get your PCs to high-level gaming, you'll only be able to focus on one PC. In that case, play what you want to play from levels 1 through 15 (even if you only get to 12 or something). Whereas Ken's advice may have been terribly good advice when the campaign offered players the opportunity to play a cleric from 1 to 18 and then play a monk from 1 to 15, it now fails (I think) to recognize that new players have to play the type of characters they want to play -- now -- if at all. So, at any rate... I checked this thread partly to amuse myself by finding Solbergb's inevitable piece of advice admonishing you to go for "more Strength." It's not here yet, so I guess I'll offer it in his place, though it appears you've already got that matter sorted. ;-) As for Stunning Fist vs. Improved Grapple, I'd recommend Improved Grapple *unless* you were planning to introduce into your build any of those feats that require Stunning Fist as a pre-requisite. As the math goes, both Stunning Fist and Improved Grapple tend to work better at lower APLs, but Improved Grapple tends to play more of an active role throughout the APL spectrum.
MwaO 11-26-07, 08:00 PM	So, at any rate... I checked this thread partly to amuse myself by finding Solbergb's inevitable piece of advice admonishing you to go for "more Strength." It's not here yet, so I guess I'll offer it in his place, though it appears you've already got that matter sorted. ;-) As for Stunning Fist vs. Improved Grapple, I'd recommend Improved Grapple *unless* you were planning to introduce into your build any of those feats that require Stunning Fist as a pre-requisite. As the math goes, both Stunning Fist and Improved Grapple tend to work better at lower APLs, but Improved Grapple tends to play more of an active role throughout the APL spectrum. I like having both actually. Both are pretty strong feats for a Monk with a high Strength(10 build points) and decent 14 Wisdom. Putting more than 10 build points into Strength tends to be counterproductive, though. And Fiery Fist is a solid Monk 9 feat if you don't have any other uses for Stunning Fist.
solbergb 11-27-07, 11:54 AM	I concur. You want both stun fist and grapple. Both are very powerful in the level 1-6 game with decent strength and moderate wisdom. Only dispense with stun fist if you dump wisdom entirely, which is something I did with my first LG character (a monk) but that was an experiement for an experienced player. I don't recommend doing that as build advice :) My monk was actually quite often the "star" of the party in the low levels just by having 18 strength and improved grapple, and using it aggressively to take enemies out of the fight. The only problem with taking both stun fist and improved grapple at level 1 is that you need a 15+ dexterity to be enlarged and still be able to grapple (if you take grapple as a bonus feat - not so much of a problem). The usual way around that is a wood elf monk, which boosts both strength and dex, but at the cost of constitution. Your AC will be low, your hitpoints medeocre, but grappled or stunned opponents don't hit back very hard. If you are strong, a lot of your enemies won't survive one swat in the level 1-3 game.
Vamroc 12-02-07, 11:10 AM	I had plans to go Defending While Intoxicated which involves taking Drunken Master and Dwarven Defender levels. Yes I realize my BAB drops but when you can drink a greater mage armor and have your AC jump to thirty or higher. It's worth the trade off to not be hit.
KarmaInferno 12-03-07, 11:32 AM	Defending While Intoxicated You can be pulled over and ticketed for that, you know. :D -karma
solbergb 12-03-07, 12:55 PM	I had plans to go Defending While Intoxicated which involves taking Drunken Master and Dwarven Defender levels. Yes I realize my BAB drops but when you can drink a greater mage armor and have your AC jump to thirty or higher. It's worth the trade off to not be hit. #1 - you probably won't make it that high level. #2 - your armor class is irrelevant if nobody bothers to attack you because your offense has become so weak that it is not meaningful. Be careful with choices that do that (dwarf defender has a 3 feat cost that do very little to help defense and nothing to help offense. Most monks can't afford that - they need feats to keep their offense meaningful) Better to get cheap scrolls and potions of mage armor, use the potions when you have no arcane at the table and scrolls when you do. Let the wizard or sorc cast the spell. Eventually get pearls of power for wizards, who are more cautious with their spell slots than sorcerers.
Vamroc 12-03-07, 01:49 PM	#1 - you probably won't make it that high level. #2 - your armor class is irrelevant if nobody bothers to attack you because your offense has become so weak that it is not meaningful. Be careful with choices that do that (dwarf defender has a 3 feat cost that do very little to help defense and nothing to help offense. Most monks can't afford that - they need feats to keep their offense meaningful) Better to get cheap scrolls and potions of mage armor, use the potions when you have no arcane at the table and scrolls when you do. Let the wizard or sorc cast the spell. Eventually get pearls of power for wizards, who are more cautious with their spell slots than sorcerers. Obviously I'll be getting stuff to bump my attack like Belt of Giant Strength and or potions of Magic Fang. :w00t:
solbergb 12-03-07, 06:43 PM	Equipment is important, but you have to understand that the other melees, (PC and NPC) will also be getting strength items and magic weapons. That just helps you keep up, it doesn't mitigate a weakness. I'm not saying it won't work. I'm saying just be very careful. All of the monks I've seen in LG who prioritized offense were still happy with their characters 8-12+ levels later. I've met several who prioritized defense who by level 8 apologized for their characters and really preferred to play down because otherwise they really could not contribute. It is possible to prioritize defense on a monk and retain enough offense to feel you're contributing, but it's a lot harder to do. The class itself provides primarily defensive benefits, expecting the player to prioritize feats, attributes and equipment into offense if it wants to be a decent melee character. One thing I've found with my warchanter (who is very high AC and looks like it, but whose melee contribution has steadily fallen behind since level 4, and won't kick back up till level 9 with inspire recklessness) is that if you LOOK dangerous, that often matters more for drawing attacks to your high AC than BEING dangerous. He gets a lot of mileage out of triple weapon capsule retainers on various weapons. When you swing a flaming, sparking, frosty axe at somebody....even if you miss they pay attention to you, at least for a round or two (and by then his big sister the fighter/barb offense/no defense character has usually beat them up).
bitznarf 12-04-07, 01:16 PM	My rogue recently got some mileage out of looking harmless recently (not his usual tactic). Well, for one round at least; turns out that critter had more HP than was reasonably expected. Is there someway you could use 'looking harmless' (via a hat of disguise or something) as your defense? The idea being that by not being a target you can get in position to cause some pain, in whatever fashion that might be. As I understand it, it isn't often that a critter lasts long while in full attack range of a PC.
solbergb 12-05-07, 12:02 PM	Yes, actually...my low AC monk loves adventuring with a big, high damage melee type who grabs the attention of the ginormous melee monsters while "all I'm doing is providing a flank and one hit". Bad guy rips into the damage-monster (who generally can take more punishment than me anyway) and ignores me, and is then dead when I get to go again because my full attack damage is quite respectable. Badly wounded barbarian guy is now free to get some healing, or use his heedless charge on somebody who he thinks will die in one hit, this now being the 3rd round of the fight, somebody like that usually exists.... Now if it's something I can trip or grapple, my monk tends to become the priority target if the enemies are intelligent. But enemies like that, I can handle the attention. Its the dumb monsters advanced 4hd/cr and by size that are tough for most monks to battle solo toe-to-toe and kill without assistance. I played in one module (eventually pulled for a variet of balance reasons) where the author reasoned that reducing an undead two size categories (large to small) would grant 8 hitdice of advancement (2 CR's either way right?). He tended then to pick feats with those 8hd like improved tougness or the one that uses cha mod as con mod for undead so the hp just skyrocketed. We nearly had a couple deaths because the monsters took MUCH longer to kill than we expected. (surely THIS round it'll die....I'll just keep swinging even though my hitpoints are going into the red zone). Things like 450hp at APL10 (in an encounter with four bad guys) and 650ish at APL14. Some of them also had quite decent armor class (but I grant the most hp-bloated monsters were easy to hit) Yes, they were easier to grapple but sheesh :) They were a LOT tougher than they looked. A lot of "looking harmless" or "looking dangerous" revolves around the combination of your actual appearance and what you do as your first meaningful action. It's possible to sandbag the bad guys by doing some kind of high AC expertise thing, they dismiss you as meaningless and then you reckless rage, power attack and rip into them. Or on the other side, you do something flashy that looks dangerous but low percentage but isn't that bad if it actually works. Heck, forcing a saving throw is often enough to get attention. The enemy BDF only knows "I just passed a will save, I better kill that guy" not that it was only DC13 and that the effect would be minor.