Post/Author/DateTime	Post
echoota 09-26-06, 02:28 AM	Despite never having liked the Vancian system of magic, I feel after 25 years of D&D I should actually try and wizard finally, so I plan to go strait wizard and let myself dive into the micromanaging world of spell components and spellbooks. It will help me expand my D&D horizons, and more importantly, help me with my DMing. Still, I can't just totally start with strait wizard, especially when the real payoff will come years from now if I keep up with the character in LG. So I want to start off my first level with another class just to get a boost in HP, a save category or two and other abilities. I plan on playing a Grey Elf and have an intelligence of 20. If I'm doing a wizard I might as well go all out. My stats are going to reflect being a wizard and not what I plan to be for my first level... no big deal, I just have to survive for two or three adventures. So what has really caught my eye has been starting as a Scout. With the large amount of skill points and the skirmish ability it seems pretty intriguing. With the 20 Int I'll have heaps of skill points, so many that I can get a lot of skills that I won't normally have access to, but still be able to do get some cross class ranks so that when I go into wizard at second level I'll be able to max out the wizard skills that really count. Likewise, I'll get access to things such as tumble which is a skill I just love to pull out when things get dicey. Now I know that Rogue is a better skill set to pick. You get UMD and so other more wizardly skills to overlap better, but I prefer the skirmish ability over the backstabbing ability. I don't look at a character build only for the long term benefits, but also for the fun that I'll get in the next year or so and the idea of getting +1d6 on my magic missile spells and the like is just one of those satisfying perks that makes the character exciting to me. Nonetheless, I'm posting this to get other people's impressions on what to be for the first level? Are there other advantageous combinations to work with? I'm drawn to the skill heavy characters due to the fact that I'm investing so much in Intelligence, but if there is something else out there that is more compelling? I've beat back the idea of Scout 1/Warmage 1 and then go into wizard... but the idea of getting the +5 warmage edge + skirmish with autohitting magic missiles makes my eyes sparkle with minimaxing delight... still, it's too much of a hit with the main spell advancement. I know that I ought to really just go strait wizard from the start to get level 2 spells at 3rd level, but multiclassing has too much of a grip on me. I like having weird twists, along with more hit points :)
Nutation 09-26-06, 02:40 AM	I know that I ought to really just go strait wizard from the start to get level 2 spells at 3rd level, but multiclassing has too much of a grip on me. I like having weird twists, along with more hit points :) Don't do it. If you want to be a wizard, start with wizard 1 and keep going. The cost of multiclassing is to be behind all the way up to 15th and never getting 8th level spells. If you want a twist, look through the PrCs for something unusual (for example, Wild Mage) that still maintains casting progression. Multiclassing is for gishes, arcane tricksters, and other characters who don't advertise themselves as wizards.
Lupo 09-26-06, 09:00 AM	Despite never having liked the Vancian system of magic, I feel after 25 years of D&D I should actually try and wizard finally, so I plan to go strait wizard and let myself dive into the micromanaging world of spell components and spellbooks. It will help me expand my D&D horizons, and more importantly, help me with my DMing. Still, I can't just totally start with strait wizard, especially when the real payoff will come years from now if I keep up with the character in LG. So I want to start off my first level with another class just to get a boost in HP, a save category or two and other abilities. I plan on playing a Grey Elf and have an intelligence of 20. If I'm doing a wizard I might as well go all out. My stats are going to reflect being a wizard and not what I plan to be for my first level... no big deal, I just have to survive for two or three adventures. So what has really caught my eye has been starting as a Scout. With the large amount of skill points and the skirmish ability it seems pretty intriguing. With the 20 Int I'll have heaps of skill points, so many that I can get a lot of skills that I won't normally have access to, but still be able to do get some cross class ranks so that when I go into wizard at second level I'll be able to max out the wizard skills that really count. Likewise, I'll get access to things such as tumble which is a skill I just love to pull out when things get dicey. Now I know that Rogue is a better skill set to pick. You get UMD and so other more wizardly skills to overlap better, but I prefer the skirmish ability over the backstabbing ability. I don't look at a character build only for the long term benefits, but also for the fun that I'll get in the next year or so and the idea of getting +1d6 on my magic missile spells and the like is just one of those satisfying perks that makes the character exciting to me. Nonetheless, I'm posting this to get other people's impressions on what to be for the first level? Are there other advantageous combinations to work with? I'm drawn to the skill heavy characters due to the fact that I'm investing so much in Intelligence, but if there is something else out there that is more compelling? I've beat back the idea of Scout 1/Warmage 1 and then go into wizard... but the idea of getting the +5 warmage edge + skirmish with autohitting magic missiles makes my eyes sparkle with minimaxing delight... still, it's too much of a hit with the main spell advancement. I know that I ought to really just go strait wizard from the start to get level 2 spells at 3rd level, but multiclassing has too much of a grip on me. I like having weird twists, along with more hit points :) if you are concerned about surviving, play a dwarven or gnomish wizard instead of the ueber-intelligent grey elven. you have to switch focus slightly from offensive spells that allow saves, but you can overcome this with a few levels of fatespinner :). you get scribe scroll anyway free as a wizard, so on low levels, the bonus spells from int 20 are not so overwhelming, at higher levels the bonus spells for int 20 are nice but somehow overrated for my taste ;). bright sands characters with some of the limited feats make great spellcasters. ciao martin m.
amnuxoll 09-26-06, 02:05 PM	Don't do it. If you want to be a wizard, start with wizard 1 and keep going. The cost of multiclassing is to be behind all the way up to 15th and never getting 8th level spells. I strongly concur on this. I often hear players with wizard PCs regret multi-classing. The only exception is when they pclass requires it and pays you back for your trouble (e.g., arcane trickster or spellsword)
echoota 09-26-06, 03:42 PM	I can understand why going strait makes sense, but the way I see it is that I seriously doubt I'll ever get any character up to 15th level. That would be years away with dedicated play with just that one character. I've been playing LG since April and I've only gotten a character up to 3rd level and it's been a painfully glacial pace to see so little development in that time. I suspect at this point in my life I have as much time as I ever will to devote to playing LG and it's just a sloooow process to get anywhere quickly when you only play one session every two weeks. So, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how to have an interesting edge, not when my character matures at later levels, but something I can use within the first four levels. I imagine I'll have a lot of low level characters over time because I doubt I'll have the patience to see one character through over years of play, so interesting low level cominations are much more attractive to me. All of my previous D&D experience, outside of LG, had situations where the DM would hand out one potent magic item to each player to players within their first three levels or so, something like a ring of invisibility, a +3 sword, bag of holding, etc. Having a potent object at low levels is a lot of fun. A ring of invisibility at low levels is a lot more fun than at high leves because it really gives a cool edge to the character. The character becomes a hero in part because of the "gift of the gods"... or as I like to call it, "if you have the tools, you have the talent!" So, that was a lot of fun, but with LG being so stingy it's slow going to feel like you have any real potency in the game. I want some kind of cool twist for my character within those first three levels that is going to make me excited about the character. The long term investment, while important for a spellcaster, just isn't as compelling... it feels like I'm playing with my mutual funds rather than a hero that rises above the adventures at hand. Like I said, I only want to dip one level to get an interesting twist, because otherwise this glacial pace of LG will drive me crazy just waiting to get to 2nd level spells, otherwise I would do the warmage 1/scout 1/wizard 14 so I can get that BAM ZOOM! power effect for my first couple of levels.
Lupo 09-26-06, 04:21 PM	I can understand why going strait makes sense, but the way I see it is that I seriously doubt I'll ever get any character up to 15th level. That would be years away with dedicated play with just that one character. I've been playing LG since April and I've only gotten a character up to 3rd level and it's been a painfully glacial pace to see so little development in that time. I suspect at this point in my life I have as much time as I ever will to devote to playing LG and it's just a sloooow process to get anywhere quickly when you only play one session every two weeks. So, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how to have an interesting edge, not when my character matures at later levels, but something I can use within the first four levels. I imagine I'll have a lot of low level characters over time because I doubt I'll have the patience to see one character through over years of play, so interesting low level cominations are much more attractive to me. All of my previous D&D experience, outside of LG, had situations where the DM would hand out one potent magic item to each player to players within their first three levels or so, something like a ring of invisibility, a +3 sword, bag of holding, etc. Having a potent object at low levels is a lot of fun. A ring of invisibility at low levels is a lot more fun than at high leves because it really gives a cool edge to the character. The character becomes a hero in part because of the "gift of the gods"... or as I like to call it, "if you have the tools, you have the talent!" So, that was a lot of fun, but with LG being so stingy it's slow going to feel like you have any real potency in the game. I want some kind of cool twist for my character within those first three levels that is going to make me excited about the character. The long term investment, while important for a spellcaster, just isn't as compelling... it feels like I'm playing with my mutual funds rather than a hero that rises above the adventures at hand. Like I said, I only want to dip one level to get an interesting twist, because otherwise this glacial pace of LG will drive me crazy just waiting to get to 2nd level spells, otherwise I would do the warmage 1/scout 1/wizard 14 so I can get that BAM ZOOM! power effect for my first couple of levels. :nonono:DON'T MIX TWO SPELLCASTER CLASSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :nonono:NEVER!!!!!! IT DOES'T WORK!!!!!:nonono: the only exeption is mystic theurge and arcane hierophant, and some cleric/favoured soul - pious templar builds. when you don't need the other class for a prestige class, the level dip will become a pain in a certain part of anatomie ;), as a spellcaster you SHOULD always try to be on the top tier of spell level for a given APL, especcially as a wizard. APL 4 modules assume most of the time that a party has access to an area blast spell. if you are the party wizard with 5 character levels and don't have one, your party will not be happy. and just imagine your dip-level is the one point that pushed the APL calculation up to the higher one. depending on where you live and to how many play opportunities you have, you can get a character with 52 TUs up to approximately 7th level, the second year can take you as far as 10th level and from there on it can take between 2 and infinite years till level 15 :) for multiple characters - something that comes up when you want to be able to play at every given level on a con - it depends on the lg-regions you can get on a regular basis - let's say once or twice a year a gaming weekend in another region is totally sufficient to get a second, third and even fourth character running. i started very late in year two of the campaig (only one game, so wasted a total of 50 TUs there) and my character died once - very xp costly - a few points short of level 7. now he just made level 13, but burnt some reasonable amount of TUs on crafting. ciao martin m.
clik_ml 09-26-06, 04:40 PM	Like I said, I only want to dip one level to get an interesting twist, because otherwise this glacial pace of LG will drive me crazy just waiting to get to 2nd level spells, otherwise I would do the warmage 1/scout 1/wizard 14 so I can get that BAM ZOOM! power effect for my first couple of levels. Trouble is that that BAM ZOOM! will come out more like a *piffle*. Those dips aren't terribly synergistic, and they make the excruciating wait for higher level spells that much longer. If you want something different for a low level wizard, consider something slightly less sub-optimal for a twist. Maybe an elven wizard who uses a bow somewhat proficiently (14 str/16 dex/14con/14int), so you don't run out of slots so quickly. Or a dwarven trapper mage (14dex/16con/18int) with cross-class ranks in search, disable device, and open lock. Stuff to speed up your progress: double-round mods, playing intros for your first 2-3 mods. My region (verbobonc) even has double-round intros, which really speed up the progression.
JamesMaissen 09-26-06, 05:19 PM	Okay a few things here: First, a level of scout can make for an interesting wizard variant. It is not a pure wizard and you will feel the level 'lost' here. Consider this as an old multiclassed magic-user from earlier editions. The key here is not the extra d6 damage but rather the traps ability. Plan on using it, and plan for levels in the PrC Geometer to capitalize upon it. You will be able to handle traps like an arcane trickster but be 2 casting levels over them. Now you will always have to live with the pain of 'I could be a wizard one level higher' and if that will bother you then don't do it. Second, magic missle does not require a hitroll and thus you cannot skirmish with it. In fact to skirmish you will have to be within 30' so it's not the best call for you to be making, period. The lesser orb spells and the like can give extra damage, but things like ray of enfeeblement that don't do damage (it gives a str penalty) won't. Third, as a corollary to the first: if you are slow in leveling and the lack of level will bother you DO NOT do this. For your first wizard in LG, I suggest either a grey elf or gnome going wiz5/DivOr2/LoremasterX with a focus on getting high scores in as many knowledges as possible. I would not recommend specialization as your choice, whichever you make, will not be an informed one and giving up each and every school has it's drawbacks. -James
Nutation 09-26-06, 05:55 PM	Like I said, I only want to dip one level to get an interesting twist, because otherwise this glacial pace of LG will drive me crazy just waiting to get to 2nd level spells, otherwise I would do the warmage 1/scout 1/wizard 14 so I can get that BAM ZOOM! power effect for my first couple of levels. LG is about the journey, not the destination. We all agree with you that the character should be interesting and playable from the beginning. But, damaging the character's potential immediately is not the best way. Perhaps you can select a feat to give an interesting twist? An elven wizard with longbow and PBS is one choice. Or, one of the regional feats - well-traveled, Vathris stigmata. Or, something completely oddball (Mounted Combat?).
solbergb 09-26-06, 06:53 PM	I can understand why going strait makes sense, but the way I see it is that I seriously doubt I'll ever get any character up to 15th level. . All the more reason to not cripple the character at the outset. The power shift even from first to second level spells is very large. Why delay it? If you are concerned about not having enough to do when your spell slots run out, buy scrolls. Piles and piles of scrolls. L1 scrolls are cheap, and let you be a spellcaster every round of every fight until you reach level 3 and get a few more slots. (then the scroll addiction slowly eases off...by level 6-7 you're only using scrolls for odd-edge condition cases) That said though....if you aren't excited by the character you won't play it. Just try to find something that excites you that does NOT involve multiclassing spellcasters. Even when mixed with a PRC designed to mitigate the harsh impact of doing that, they're always a bit behind the curve. Before they get levels in the PRC (which is TWO YEARS MINIMUM) in LG, they're making a big power tradeoff to become medeocre (or even poor) at two things. I keep trying to write up rogue builds, and never actually play them. I won't play one till I'm actually excited by him. My advice is not to play a wizard until it actually interests you, just as a wizard.
Timlagor 09-27-06, 01:05 PM	1 level of Rogue is *ok* for the 20Int Wizard but Scout is less good. Make sure you keep the Search and DD maxed with CC skill points. You will never get precision damage (such as Skirmish) on Magic Missiles.
Rerednaw 09-29-06, 04:00 PM	I also started LG in April. Started with a Sorcerer. He died during his 3rd or 4th AR (TPK) and never made it to 2nd level. I then started a wizard, my current character. After 4 months (10 ARs) he's made it to 3rd level. I am very very very glad I did not multiclass. It is just not worth it. The thought of having to blow more months just to get access to 2nd level spells would be a game ender for me. :) And it only slows down further the higher you go. I'm more inclined to say if you want an arcane 'twist' go with warmage, sorceror or such. Do not do it with a wizard. On the other hand if you really want to be different heck take a non-casting class. One level of barbarian will help your survivability. More hp and you can run like the wind. :) Optimal? Heck no! But the look on the party and the DM's face when you say, "Okay my wizard takes out his greataxe and rages...." is well worth it. Just my 2 coppers.
echoota 09-29-06, 08:47 PM	You will never get precision damage (such as Skirmish) on Magic Missiles. From the way I'm reading the various definitions in the glossary of the PHB it sounds like I should be getting precision damage with Magic Missile: First Skirmish: "She deals and extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes in a round in which she moves at least 10 feet." So then we look up Attack in the glossary: "Any of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent. The outcome of an attack is determined by an attack roll." So at this point it sounds like it won't work, as magic missile doesn't make an attack roll. However, if you look under Automatic Hit: "An attack that hits regardless of target AC. Automatic hits occur on an attack roll of natural 20 or as a result of certain spells." Now when you look at the magic missile entry, while it doesn't say "automatic hit" it certainly describes it as such with "The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment." So, it can be argued that a magic missile, because it strikes unerringly is an automatic hit and that qualifies it as an attack, and since you can add skirmish to all of your attacks in a round (as long as it's 30 feet or closer for ranged and it isn't an undead, etc.) then the shirmish should apply to the magic missile.
RanielK 09-30-06, 03:00 PM	Precision damage requires you be able to aim at anatomy. You hit them where it hurts more. Magic missile just zaps the guy straight out. No aiming required. You see even a tiny piece of your target and you will get full effect. There is no attack (ranged touch, touch or otherwise) with a Magic Missile. That is part of what makes it so good for first level and up. A force effect that only misses for Shield spells and Brooches of Shielding and Total concealment/cover. Otherwise, it is fire and forget. You want precision damage? Then it is ray, orb or splash spells for you. Anything that requires a touch or ranged touch attack to hit (vice Fireball which only requires a ranged touch attack to thread a tight spot to get at a target past the spot and is otherwise NOT a ranged touch attack).
TWG_Prometheus 10-03-06, 09:20 AM	If you do decide to go with Scout anyway, I wouldn't do the Grey Elf thing. Spells like Acid Splash become much more versatile with a bit of Skirmish damage behind them and you don't need a flank to set it up, but you need Precise Shot early if you're going to be making all those ranged attack rolls. Human to get Precise Shot at level 1 into Scout 1 then Wizard will give you some interesting options. You also don't suffer from the Scout's primary weakness (one shot per round) since you aren't planning on more than one spell per round anyway, and your attack rolls will be lower since most of your spells are ranged touch. A ray/orb specialist has little need of the high Int Grey Elf build. A high Dex/Con moderate Int human build would help you survive the shorter ranges that Skirmish requires and help you hit your targets. At that point you really only need the Int to be able to cast the spells at all. Bonus spells and save DCs are just gravy.
KShaver 10-03-06, 11:18 AM	IIRC, when Warmage was reprinted from MHB to CArc, warmage's edge was modified, and now only effects spells cast from/as a warmage.
kenobi65 10-04-06, 10:20 AM	Precision damage requires you be able to aim at anatomy. You hit them where it hurts more. Magic missile just zaps the guy straight out. No aiming required. You see even a tiny piece of your target and you will get full effect. There is no attack (ranged touch, touch or otherwise) with a Magic Missile. That is part of what makes it so good for first level and up. A force effect that only misses for Shield spells and Brooches of Shielding and Total concealment/cover. Otherwise, it is fire and forget. You want precision damage? Then it is ray, orb or splash spells for you. Anything that requires a touch or ranged touch attack to hit (vice Fireball which only requires a ranged touch attack to thread a tight spot to get at a target past the spot and is otherwise NOT a ranged touch attack). Agreed...no precision damage for Magic Missile. You only get it when you have to make an actual attack roll.
Timlagor 10-10-06, 06:08 AM	FYI the rule you need to clarify the MM-Precision thing is in the Weaponlike Spells part (just before the actual spells) in Complete Arcane. By the LGCS we do use this rule. The damage from one level of Scout is not worth losing a level of Spells for. There is something to be said for it on a Skills+trapfinding basis but Rogue is strictly better for this and it's something I'd strongly discourage for someone who considers low level casters boring. Personally I find the idea that a 1st level wizard is weak baffling no matter how much I see it.
Timlagor 10-10-06, 06:45 AM	FYI the rule you need to clarify the MM-Precision thing is in the Weaponlike Spells part (just before the actual spells) in Complete Arcane. By the LGCS we do use this rule. The damage from one level of Scout is not worth losing a level of Spells for. There is something to be said for it on a Skills+trapfinding basis but Rogue is strictly better for this and it's something I'd strongly discourage for someone who considers low level casters boring. Personally I find the idea that a 1st level wizard is weak baffling no matter how much I see it.