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| sCRuLooSe04-29-08, 05:55 PM | I am thinking about making character that starts of as a Marshal. I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me. Specifically: What auras should the character take? I was thinking of taking art of war and being a tripper. Ar 3rd I was looking at Motivate Dexterity. Are there any other auras that people think would be more useful in a typical Living Greyhawk game. I tend to like Motivate Intelligence (to suppor rogue search and disable as well as knowledge checks) and Motivate Charisma (Double bonus). Augmentation to spell penetration is also nice, if unusable by this character. What about Major Auras. Should the character concentrate on charisma or strength (for to hit and damage)? What skills should the character focus on. The character could be a sage (especially in conjunction with motivate intelligence). Is this worth it? What about diplomacy and other face skills? What about spot (possibly augmented by an aura) Some builds I was looking at are (Concentration on fast support of other characters) Marshal 7/Paladin 3/Fighter 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1 (Shocktrooper charge build with decent trip abilities but no damage augmentation. Slower support than above) Marshal 3/Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Marshal 4-7/? 4 (Melee Weapon Mastery+Trip) Marshal 3/Paladin 2/Fighter 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Paladin 3/Marshal 4-7 I have nothing fully detailed in mind yet and am open to any suggestions. Thanks |
| kenobi6504-29-08, 06:04 PM | Having played with a few marshals in LG: Motivate Dex is a big winner. Being able to get large chunks of your party to go before the bad guys in combat makes you really, really popular. :D |
| jstorrie04-29-08, 09:12 PM | A few other Marshal builds you might consider– Marshal 4 / Paladin 4 / Divine Crusader (Divine Might + Melee Weapon Mastery + a good domain) Marshal 1 / Barbarian 1 / Fighter 4 / Outcast Champion 5 / Holy Liberator 4 or Marshal 1-3 / Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Marshal 4 / Outcast Champion 4 / Barbarian 3 (levels stagged up to avoid xp penalties / sync up MWM on 9; Barbarian allows Intimidating Rage / Extra Rage / Reckless Rage) I heartily endorse Marshal + Outcast Champion - at the high levels, giving your party members massive Will save bonuses can save lives. |
| kinevon04-29-08, 09:40 PM | Auras: Minor: I have seen Dexterity & Charisma provide good benefits. Dexterity, of course, has the benefit of bonusing all the initiative rolls for your party. Charisma can be a big boost for diplomacy situations, especially for the Marshal himself, since he gets skill focus (diplomacy) as a free feat, so he usually winds up with +9 or 10 before the aura boost. Depending on the party, Master of Tactics (bonus to flanking damage) or the other auras could prove useful. For major auras, I would recommend starting with the one that gives a boost to AC for the party. At higher levels, the DR one gets overshadowed by various PC abilities. Most of the other major auras aren't worth much unless you take a significant number of Marshal levels, since it is only a +1 at lower levels, unlike the minor aura. Depending on the party, I would tend to recommend Charisma over Strength, Marshal lends itself more to support than front line. With a few points of Wisdom, Cleric or Healer can be useful levels; while Intelligence would lend itself to tossing in a level of two of Warmage or Sorceror. My Human Marshal: Str 12 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 16 I am doing a non-optimal build, taking a couple of levels of Marshal, and most of the rest in Warmage. Getting a Cloak of Charisma ASAP for a Marshal with a useful minor aura is a given, it benefits the whole party in that case. Art of War might be useful if there is a dedicated tripper build in the party, but burning enough stat points to make a trip-useful Strength would make the Marshal minor auras of limited benefit, if any. Especially since you would also need to have a 13 Intelligence in order to get Improved Trip as a feat, biting even further into the limited stat points available. Str 15 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 16 Gives enough Int for Improved Trip, enough Str to make tripping worthwhile, assuming al stat increases go to Str, and enough Cha to make Marshal useful. Unfortunately, assuming a trip weapon with reach, the Dex is a bit low to make Combat Reflexes more than a required feat, and the low Wis cuts into any hope of Divine caster levels or a good Will save; while the lackluster Con means average hit points, so not a good area for a frontline combat type. |
| _metz_04-30-08, 08:45 AM | Con 10 never cuts it. Spend 6 points in Con. Its the first rule of a good PC. Your PC will thank you. |
| sCRuLooSe04-30-08, 11:44 AM | Thanks for the advice so far. In response to everyone: kenobi65: I also like Motivate Dex. I am looking at taking it for the 3rd level Marshal aura. Do you think it should be upped to 1st level? jstorrie: I had not thought about the Divine Crusader. I will look into it. Outcast Champion also looks good, although I realy hate losing the feat and skill points from the human race. The Half Orc's penalty to Charisma hurts the Marshal too much, and hal orge is not an option in LG, so I would have to play a half-elf. The skill bonuses for the race are nice, but worth a feat? I will have to think about it. kinevon: I like Motivate Dexterity, but I am not sure how useful Motivate Charisma will be. Although a boost to charisma is going to be nice, by 2nd level I expect the character will have at least a +16 (5 ranks+6synergy+3feat+2min Charisma) diplomacy. Do I really need a greater boost. Although the boost to the other charisma based skills would be nice, how useful would it be for the party in general. In comparison, Motivate Wisdom supports sense motive, spot, and listen while Motivate Intelligence boosts search, disable device, and any knowledge checks; both would be more useful to the party in general. I am not expecting to consistently play in a single partly, so relying on a party capable of making use of Master of Tactics is problematic. For major aura, do you think the +1AC will be of consistent use as levels increase? I was thinking that +1 to hit or saves would be more useful through the characters history. Maybe I should pursue being a high AC tank. What do you think? I like concentrating on charisma over strength too, but I cannot guarantee that any party I get in will allow me to stay out of the front line. For purposes of tripping, if I make a tripping a buils, Charisma and Strength will be almost identical. The difference is that, by 15th, on stat can be expected to be around 26 (16base+3from levels+4enhancement+3inherent) and the other 20 (14base+4enhancement+2inherent). Does the extra +3 from auras make up for the +3 to hit +5 to damage. I have to agree with _metz_, Con needs to be at least a 14. I am looking at Str 16 or 14 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 14 or 16 If for example I went: Human Str 16 (Boosted at 4th, 8th, and 12th) Dex 8 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 14 Marshal 1 - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip/Art of War Marshal 2 - (Skill Focus Diplomacy)/Motivate Attack Marshal 3 - Power Attack/Motivate Dexterity Paladin 1 - /Aura Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/Day Paladin 2 - /Divine Grace, Lay on Hands Fighter 1 - Weapon Focus(Guisarme), (Improved Bull Rush) Fighter 2 - Improved Disarm (optional) Fighter 3 Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery Paladin 3 - /Divine Health, Divine Courage Marshal 4 - Grant Move Action 1/Day Marshal 5 - Shocktrooper/ Motivate Intelligence Marshal 6 Marshal 7 - Motivate Wisdom This character should be ok on the frontline, I suspect. Paladin will shore up the low Reflex while Marshall/Paladin will boost will saves. No Combat Reflexes reduces battlefield control, but the character will end with a decent to hit and bonus damage. At 15th +13BAB+2Motivate Attack+4Str+3Feats=+22 to Hit Base and 2d4Base+6Str+4Feats=15 Damage Base. In contrast, a straight 1/2 orc fighter maximizing to hit and damage and sacrificing everything else will have +23 to hit Base and 22 base damage(this goes up faster with further strength increases). This is one of the builds I am looking at. The question is whether the fighter levels and extra to hit/damage are worth pursuing. _metz_: As mentioned earlier, I agree. Con 14 is am ust. Thanks for the advice so far, keep em coming. |
| kinevon04-30-08, 12:08 PM | Motivate Dexterity is especially useful at low levels, when few people are going to be using a feat for Improved Initiative, but hit points are low, so getting in attacks while your opponent(s) are flat-footed can be a major difference in party survival. Motivate Charisma benefits any Charisma-based skills, including Gather Information & Intimidate, and most parties wind up doing a lot of information gathering, unless they have a lot of knowledge skills, and Intimidate can be useful to have a boost to. My own Marshal has Motivate Dexterity, and that has helped his party bust a few mods already, while my archer has played a few mods with another player's Diplomacy-heavy Motivate Charisma Marshal, and that has broken a few mods, as well. When a 5th level PC has +33 to Diplomacy, before adding in the (extremely likely, in this case) +2 from each assist, it is easy for even a low roll to cap out the diplomacy reaction chart for the NPCs. YMMV. Oh, and on the +16 by 3rd level: My Marshal has a +10 at 1st level, and a 1 on the die forced a combat that should not have happened, with bad results for the party. You want a high enough modifier that even a 1 gives a neutral reaction and another chance to diplomacize your opponents. The +1 AC is useful at any level, since it will always apply, and it goes up every so often if you take additional Marshal levels. Once you get multiple Major Auras, you can switch between them as the situation warrants. But even that +1 AC can make the difference between a confirmed critical and normal hit on one of your party members. |
| jstorrie04-30-08, 01:49 PM | Half-elf is actually very very good for a Cha-focused Marshal build. The skill bonuses sync up right where you want them, and Half-elves qualify for Sociable Personality, king of open diplomacy-related reats. You can also get into Outcast Champion with Pal 4 / Marshal 1, if you want, and take a few Marshal levels afterwards to finish up. Pal 4 being the best Paladin dip for a Cha-focused melee character because it opens up Divine Might. |
| Maesto04-30-08, 02:28 PM | Con 10 never cuts it. Spend 6 points in Con. Its the first rule of a good PC. Your PC will thank you. Aww, you're weak! Weak I tell you! This coming from the player of a con 10 kobold sorceror who's taken the draconic rite of passage, and thus has exactly 3 hitpoints per level, for a grand total of 15 at 5th level! Almost anyone with a greataxe can oneshot you! It's amazing! Disclaimer: This is NOT recommended. This PC is an exercise in a damage avoidance play-style, and has the advantage of being able to keep their hitpoints boosted at all times using false life (soon to be empowered). |
| kinevon04-30-08, 02:49 PM | Con 10 never cuts it. Spend 6 points in Con. Its the first rule of a good PC. Your PC will thank you. Gotta disagree, by the way. It may be necessary for a melee PC, but if you avoid melee, and have a good way of making sure opponents never get to melee, why do you need all that wasted Con? Con is just so... static. Str is good for damage. Dex is good for ranged attacks and AC. Int is good for skills. Wis is good for Divine spells. Okay, a bit static, as well. Cha is good for some classes, like Marshal, Sorceror, Bard, etc. My 6th level Fighter has only a 12 Con, and I am still regretting making it higher than 10, and not putting more points into Wisdom. Then again, he is an archer build, and just went into Pious Templar (Paladin spells without needing to be LG), but his Wisdom is only a 10. :( |
| kenobi6504-30-08, 02:54 PM | Gotta disagree, by the way. It may be necessary for a melee PC, but if you avoid melee, and have a good way of making sure opponents never get to melee, why do you need all that wasted Con? *cough*Area of Effect spells*cough*, especially because Reflex saves aren't your strong suit. |
| Mattastrophic04-30-08, 03:55 PM | *cough*Area of Effect spells*cough*, especially because Reflex saves aren't your strong suit. It's doable. My 15th-level melee character walks around with 10 Con. As for Major Marshal Auras... start off with the +1 to melee attacks one, then retrain into +1 to all saves around level 9 or 10. -Matt |
| kinevon04-30-08, 04:00 PM | *cough*Area of Effect spells*cough*, especially because Reflex saves aren't your strong suit. 1) Avoid Fireball formation. Even with a high Con, that should be a given. 2) Avoid lining up in Lightning Bolt formation. Again, even with high Con, that should be a given. 3) Find some source of Evasion, whether it is Barbarian or Rogue levels, or access to a ring. And never forget that Vest of Resistance. I don't know, offhand, of any better use for that Torso slot, and it leaves the Cloak slot for a Cloak of Charisma, which should be one of the items that a Marshal is aiming to get. And AoE spells still rank lower, at least for Fighter-types, than Will-type spells. Charm Person sucks. My archer got affected by one in a recent mod, mainly because I was the only one to hit the enemy wizard after he went invisible, and a will save of +1 failed it. |
| UMiskatonic04-30-08, 08:18 PM | Marshal goes well with Knight. 1 level of marshal qualifies you for Marshal 1/Warmage 6/Eldritch Knight 9, which I think would be a lot of fun, though I recognize that Sorceror is more effective. gotta go, more later. |
| _metz_04-30-08, 11:54 PM | My 6th level Fighter has only a 12 Con, and I am still regretting making it higher than 10, and not putting more points into Wisdom. Then again, he is an archer build, and just went into Pious Templar (Paladin spells without needing to be LG), but his Wisdom is only a 10. :( LG used to be full of 2d6 Con poison/other con effects. You say con is not important, how many fort save or die spells are out there? a few... And your example is a level 6 PC. See how well it holds up at APLs 10+ and then get back to me. At low APls you can hide and snipe, at high apls things change. The sniping PCs at the back ARE the Targets, not the big fighter/melee PC standing up the front. Mages can get away with it thanks to False life, (it effectively bumps them up to equivalent con) and also because they can avoid damage through mirror image, blink, etc. Nonetheless, con 10 is asking for trouble, both in fort saves, concentration, and hit points. But most importantly in Con Drain/Damage, which is all over the joint at High APLs. Your Con 10 PC would die a horrible horrible death to a dread wraith… |
| jstorrie05-01-08, 12:14 AM | 1 level of marshal qualifies you for Marshal 1/Warmage 6/Eldritch Knight 9, which I think would be a lot of fun, though I recognize that Sorceror is more effective. Might as well go to Warmage 8 if you're going to do that–you've already taken the BAB hit and Sudden Empower is pretty nice. |
| sCRuLooSe05-01-08, 11:30 AM | Thanks for all the useful replies so far. At this point, I think I want to go at least Marshal 3. Beyond that I am flexible (Paladin 2 or Paladin 4, Fighter 4, Knight 3, and Outcast Champion 5 are all continuations I would consider). I think the next question I would ask is what feets to take? If the character goes with the fighter build, melee weapon mastery is an obvious choice. Paladin 4 mandates Divine Might. These, however are later in the build. At the early levels, especially if taking half-elf for outcast champion, what feats are the best choice. In specific, I would like a set of feats that enable a non-support combat roll, since the character is comparably weak in offense. Any suggestions? Kinevon, I agree Motivate Dex is good, but is it preferable as the 1st level choice or the 3rd level choice? I am still not sold on the boost to AC, in my experience by mid levels, everything hits. Keeping AC up is harder to do than keeping up to hit. In addition, I have found that enhancing offense is better than enhancing defense. That extra +1 to hit might have made a miss a hit and prevented the opponent from attacking back. I am also not convinced about charisma for two reasons: 1) How many modules allow you to diplomacy/intimidate your way past an encounter. How many make gather info a skill check that has massive benefit as compared to minor benefit (as compared to a more combat oriented aura). 2) At what level will the bonus become obsolete. If, at 2nd level, the character has a +13 bonus minimum to diplomacy (+9 to intimidate), than how long until ranks, boosts to charisma, and other magic items put you high enough? In everyone's experience, are these factors mitigated? Jstorrie, I know half-elf builds make good faces. Lowlight vision is good too. However, they vastly detract from the combat roll. I want to play a support character with a decent combat ability as a secondary, a Paladin 4/Marshal 1/OC 5 goes the opposite direction. At most, I would go Marshal 3/Paladin 2/OC 5 and forego Divine Might until possibly later. Maesto, I agree, my style of play mandates a high Con. Kinevon, in part I am planning on playing a melee combatant unless I find a cecent alternative that synergizes well with the character. In addition, I am looking at going LG Paladin eventually, and sitting back avoiding attacks seems a bit cowardly for the typical character roll. I also have to agree with kenobi65, I cannot count on avoiding area effects (getting the ring, making the Ref save). Mattastrophic, doable maybe but fairly difficuly for a 2nd line character that I suspect will regularly be forced into front lines. I like the retarining idea, in fact, I might expand on it and retrain minor auras as well. I had not though about the possibility. UMiskatonic, the concept is more a spellcaster with support as a dip that drastically hurts spellcasting. If I were to go that route, I would prefer Marshall 1/Cleric 4/Hospitaler 10 with a focus on support spells and not casting. This feals a bit too weak to me though, too much dilution of spellcasting. I have considered knight and trying for a defense build instead of an offense build. Something like Marshal 3/Knight 4/Paladin 2/OC 5. The problem is that it takes too long to get off the ground. This would be better off as a pure knight, and Marshall has very little to support it other than a +1 to AC. I also considered a mounted build, but without fighter levels the build is too slow and the mount is too vulnerable at higher levels. _metz_, I did not realize Con damage was so common. Just another reason to get a decent Con. On the other hand, if I make it to high APLs before 4th ed begins, I will be amazed, so it might not be as big a problem as it could. Truth is, I am trying to front-end the builds a bit because I do not expect to reach the high APLs. Jtorrie, I agree about the warmage. Thanks for all the new advice; please keep the suggestions flowing, you are giving me new options to consider and helping me sharpen my creative focus. |
| UMiskatonic05-01-08, 01:23 PM | Honestly, having a good CHA and social skills IS a non-combat role. Remember that you get Speak Language as a class skill, and ALL knowledge skills. You could easily go tank/healer. Shove your AC through the roof, and take a level of healer or favored soul. With a minimal investement in scrolls and wands, you can get everyone healed up after the fight. Really, ANY combination of classes can be a decent tank. It's more a question of where you put your money. I can totally see a marshal/paladin/knight saying "attack me!" I'd look at that knight's challenge. Here's the combo that I see as most fun... a) Challenge, you have to attack me. b) Have huge AC, so those attacks usually miss. c) thereby setting up the rest of your party. Multiclassing and divine grace will put your saves through the roof, and you'll be able to wear full plate and a heavy shield. Since you benefit from skills, give yourself a 14 INT, and then take combat expertise. Full expertise, fighting defensively, and you'll last a LONG time. Do consider a brooch of shielding, however. If you work toward the true believer feat, you'll qualify for Templar, which gives you still better saves, and mettle. |
| bitznarf05-01-08, 04:55 PM | Not sure if you noticed it or not, but here is a build I made a while back. You might be able to adapt it to suit your tastes. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12533996&postcount=33 |
| Mattastrophic05-01-08, 08:57 PM | Mattastrophic, doable maybe but fairly difficuly for a 2nd line character that I suspect will regularly be forced into front lines. I like the retarining idea, in fact, I might expand on it and retrain minor auras as well. I had not though about the possibility. By the way, I don't advise that; I'm just saying it's possible. That same 10 Con melee character tends to wade into melee with 150+ hp. As for minor auras, I'd say let your first one be the flanking one, then retrain it into Motivate Dex. At low levels, people actually use their move actions, so flanking can happen more often. For the second aura, who knows. You don't actually need Motivate Cha. LG's Charisma-based DCs are pathetic, and you don't need to spend class features on them. Around level 8+, I like Motivate Fort as a second aura. That way, you walk around motivating Dex, then once combat starts you boost everyone's Fort save. -Matt Whose primary PC taps every Cha-based DC he comes across. |
| sCRuLooSe05-01-08, 10:50 PM | UMiskatonic, I have thought about going tank too. The problem is that knight 4 is a very hefty investment that comes a bit late for attracting appropriate attention and has little overall synergy. I looked into taking goad (possibly retraining out later), but I cannot see any way to shoot AC up to unreasonable levels. Even taking full plate and shield ASAP + combat expertise seems a bit low. On the other hand, I do not play tanks very often, so I may be underestimating the AC. Thanks bitznarf, I will take a look. I passed over it earlier, but I needed my books to look up OC. I would probably prefer Paladin to Hexblade if I can get it. If anything, I would go Marshall 3/Knight 4/Paladin 2/OC 5. Thanks, Mattastrophic. I could look into flanking at low levels. An extra 3-5 damage might be enough to make the difference to get a one-hit kill. On the other hand, do you think that a boost to initiative might provide a similar benefit at low levels. Also a though for everyone to review and criticize. What about something like: Human Marshall 3/Bard 2/Hexblade 1/Warchanter 3/Hexblade 2/Warchanter 4-7. Decent Charisma and support synergy and a powerful way to massively enhance party damage by 9th. If the character concentrates on goad and combat expertise, he might be able to draw enemy attacks while everyone else minimizes AC to punch massive damage through. |
| Iswald05-02-08, 11:00 AM | Con 10 never cuts it. Spend 6 points in Con. Its the first rule of a good PC. I actually have an elf bard/ranger/marshal/dread commando with a 10 con. The only time he has died, so far, was at the end of Red Hand of Doom. He had no problems at the lower levels, going into melee and using a sword to take out opponents. It was actually several levels before he even purchased a bow (since his secondary role, after making sure the party went first, was as an archer), instead of relying upon javelins. So yeah, you can get by with a lower con, if you have some skill in playing your PC. How many more PCs are you going to make for LG? Have fun, play something different and more challenging. ;) |
| UMiskatonic05-02-08, 05:58 PM | You can get by, if you have some skill playing your PC, AND THE REST OF YOUR TABLE IS ALSO SKILLED. If you end up at a lot of random muster tables, a 10 Con hurts even more. Don't do it. |
| Iswald05-03-08, 01:45 AM | If the rest of the table is average, then you can still get by with 10 con. At a table with some complete idiots running around (for instance when the cleric went off to heal some NPCs fighting a different group and I had to use a wand on the monk every round - used half a wand in that mod), then it becomes problematic. |
| JamesMaissen05-03-08, 03:44 AM | If the rest of the table is average, then you can still get by with 10 con. At a table with some complete idiots running around (for instance when the cleric went off to heal some NPCs fighting a different group and I had to use a wand on the monk every round - used half a wand in that mod), then it becomes problematic. A low CON boils down to restricting your options. When the character is hit, it's as if they are hit for more. When they take a large hit.. they are crippled. Even if they don't die it changes what they can do and what others have to do for them. Likewise it can effect your purchase choices.. when the lowered hps become a problem then you are buying gear to shore it up rather than investing elsewhere or getting a better return on it directly. CON is the stat score that is least readily seen as valuable.. but don't undervalue it. ESPECIALLY if you are not used to LG and the different points at which APLs can ramp up difficulty. -James |
| Iswald05-03-08, 04:54 AM | A low CON boils down to restricting your options. You are overvaluing con. If I'd put two more points into con (6 points vs 4 points) my PC would only have had 1 more HP per level. That is a very small amount and would not have changed whether or not he died. A low con has not affected the purchases my PC made (except that he invested in a longsword and shield instead of a greatsword at level 1). Do other PCs have to go out of their way to assist mine? Nope. Less con has not restricted my options. If anything, they are more open as those points go into other abilities to improve them and provide options I would not have had otherwise. |
| _metz_05-03-08, 09:42 AM | You are overvaluing con. If I'd put two more points into con (6 points vs 4 points) my PC would only have had 1 more HP per level. That is a very small amount and would not have changed whether or not he died. A low con has not affected the purchases my PC made (except that he invested in a longsword and shield instead of a greatsword at level 1). Do other PCs have to go out of their way to assist mine? Nope. Less con has not restricted my options. If anything, they are more open as those points go into other abilities to improve them and provide options I would not have had otherwise. Well I have killed many con 10 PCs. You really underestimate how Important con is. What level is your PC? where does it play? I can vouch for the fact that it would die in any decent Iuz/Perrenland Mod. How does your 10 con PC handle d8 dread wraith con drain? and don't say you stay out of combat cos NO PC can stay out of combat at high APL, unless the DM is softballing! |
| Mattastrophic05-03-08, 11:29 AM | I don't know, guys, my own 15th-level 10-Con melee PC is flourishing these days. Though, on the other hand, it's part of what I like to call "playing on hard mode." And as to handling Dread Wraiths... 1. Death Ward armor 2. Cleric cohort 3. Incorporeal touch AC of 34; 38 w/ Shield of Faith 4. Ghost Trap (with Rapid Preparation to prepare it and a Belt of Battle to cast it) 5. 1d8 Con drain won't kill me; 2d8 can kill 12 and 14-Con PCs. 6. Hard Mode is fun. edit: Copper's question is seconded. How does a 14-Con PC deal with Dread Wraiths? -Matt |
| copperwyrmling05-03-08, 05:21 PM | Well I have killed many con 10 PCs. You really underestimate how Important con is. What level is your PC? where does it play? I can vouch for the fact that it would die in any decent Iuz/Perrenland Mod. I played two Con-12 PCs through exclusively Perrenland/Iuz/Core games from Year 3-6, neither of them died, and the first one went unconscious about three times total in those three years. They both used up all their time units every year, except for the first year when the secondary PC had four left over, and they were L14 and L10 respectively when I left Perrenland (I think - the second one may have been L11). Neither of them had Con-boosting items at that point, either (the first one was a cleric and the Con amulet clashed with her periapt slot, and the second was a sorcerer who just didn't feel that she needed it). I think people who have only played high-Con PCs tend to overestimate how much of a difference it makes, because they think in terms of "how well would my PC do if their Con was 4-6 points lower", and don't think about the compensating advantages they would have due to higher other stats, and the ways their playstyle would change as a consequence. My second sorcerer is a gnome with Con 16, and she was in severe danger of dying on several occasions at low levels, because her high Con made me overconfident. Sure, if I'd played her the same way with much less Con she would've died outright, but when I played my Con-12 sorcerer she just didn't get herself into those situations, and was still a very effective contributor to the party. That said, I do advise new players to invest 6 points in Con, because the value of the other stats depends to a much greater degree on how well you use your strengths and minimize your weaknesses - Con is just there, it's passive, you don't need to do anything (feats/spells/tactics-wise) to make it useful. (And seriously, did Perrenland see that much of a difficulty jump in Year 7? In years 3-6, the general reputation of Perrenland mods among my group was that they were about the same difficulty level as cores, with Iuz mods generally being a bit harder. The hardest mod I've ever played was a Sheldomar Valley game.) How does your 10 con PC handle d8 dread wraith con drain? and don't say you stay out of combat cos NO PC can stay out of combat at high APL, unless the DM is softballing! In open terrain, anyone on a Phantom Steed can often manage it quite easily, really ;) My starting-Con-12 L15 cleric deals with dread wraith con drain by turning them, Healing them, making her Fort saves, and/or casting Death Ward. My starting-Con-12 L15 sorcerer will deal with them (if she ever meets one again) by casting Ghost Trap, dropping battlefield control on them that requires Str-based checks to escape, and giggling maniacally ;) (and she also has Death Ward armor) My starting-Con-12 L14 dervish deals with them by having a good Fort save, being able to crank incorporeal touch AC to 35+ easily while maintaining his offence (over 40 in some cases), and hitting them REALLY hard with his greater-truedeath-crystal-bearing falchion if he gets close enough. How does the Con 14 PC handle dread wraiths' d8 con drain? |
| copperwyrmling05-03-08, 05:32 PM | A low CON boils down to restricting your options. When the character is hit, it's as if they are hit for more. When they take a large hit.. they are crippled. Even if they don't die it changes what they can do and what others have to do for them. Likewise it can effect your purchase choices.. when the lowered hps become a problem then you are buying gear to shore it up rather than investing elsewhere or getting a better return on it directly. A low DEX boils down to restricting your options. The character loses initiative more often and thus gets caught flat-footed in a dangerous position more frequently, and misses opportunities to take out enemies before they can act. Their armor class is lower, so when they get full attacked, more attacks get through, damaging them more, and their lack of useful ranged attacks encourages them to end up in positions where they will take full attacks. Their reflex saves are lower, so area attacks usually damage them more as well. When they get hit too often, or fail too many saves, as a result, they are crippled. Even if they don't die it changes what they can do and what others have to do for them. Likewise it can affect your purchase choices... when the lowered initiative, AC and reflex saves become a problem, then you are buying gear to shore it up rather than investing elsewhere or getting a better return on it directly. You can say the same sort of things about most of the stats, although Dex is the easiest example (Str is a more pure-offense-based stat, helping take out the bad guys more quickly and reduce damage that way; spellcasting stats are similar, for the appropriate classes). High stats are always good, low stats are always bad. Unfortunately with a 28pt buy we have to make tradeoffs. EDIT: To be clear, in Scruloose's case I agree having Con 14 is a good idea. I think it's a good rule for a first PC (rather than metz's "first rule for a good PC"), and a good idea generally when you don't have anything else compelling to spend the points on and/or you plan to be in melee a lot - and Scruloose has said his playstyle mandates Con 14. This will therefore be my last contribution to the derailment of this thread ;) |
| JamesMaissen05-03-08, 11:54 PM | You can say the same sort of things about most of the stats, although Dex is the easiest example (Str is a more pure-offense-based stat, helping take out the bad guys more quickly and reduce damage that way; spellcasting stats are similar, for the appropriate classes). High stats are always good, low stats are always bad. Unfortunately with a 28pt buy we have to make tradeoffs. You can make a low Con PC work.. but it's not something to do on a whim, just to do it. It's also something that a new player is not likely to realize what they are getting into with it. It's, imho, the easiest stat to undervalue. The best stats are always position, tactics and information. At high APLs there will be many modules that could be deadly for some while other tables don't even take damage.. just do to tempo and initial start. I guess I've seen far more people take a low CON and regret it than I've seen enjoy having what they traded it away for... It falls between unplanned characters and low will save fighters on the list of regrets looking back that I've observed out there. Again that's not to say that you might need to take the hit.. but it's a hit, and worse it's a hit that new players won't realize it's scope when choosing it, James |
| Iswald05-04-08, 04:47 AM | Well I have killed many con 10 PCs. You really underestimate how Important con is. What level is your PC? where does it play? I can vouch for the fact that it would die in any decent Iuz/Perrenland Mod. How does your 10 con PC handle d8 dread wraith con drain? and don't say you stay out of combat cos NO PC can stay out of combat at high APL, unless the DM is softballing! No. Con is useful for newer or less skilled players. However, if you paid attention to the build I gave, my party almost always goes first. In each and every encounter, as long as the other party members can see (dread commando) and hear (marshal aura) my PC, my party will go before most of the NPCs. The only exceptions are the box text autosurprises. When the party goes first, NPCs tend to fall. The need for more HPs is less of an issue. This is the biggest value that my PC brings to the table and why I would not have many qualms bringing him into an Iuz mod. I've not played this PC in a while (I've not played any of my PCs recently, for some reason ;) ) but, from what I remember, the party gets +6 or +7 to init with my PC at the table while my PC has another +4 to init on top of that. This will go up with more levels of Dread Commando, better cloaks of charisma and another bump to charisma. How would my PC handle a dread wraith? Probably by falling back and dying if cornered, just like most other PCs. :) Hopefully, the rest of the party is able to do something about it before that happens. We're not playing a solo game, are we? This PC survived 'Iuz Strikes Back', a Shield Lands mod. You could ask Lomiat how many PC deaths that mod has had. This PC has not played any Iuz mods. If you think 10 con is bad, I know of several PCs with only 6 con which have had some struggles. Yet, they've survived. I don't have quite enough PCs to do anything that crazy. ;) Perhaps my opinion is formed from a home campaign where 2nd - 3rd level PCs had to fight some kind of hag that did 2d8 strength damage. Even Shield Land and Iuz mods seem tame in comparison. ;) |
| Tonus05-04-08, 10:28 AM | I suspect that the ability to get away with a low con depends an awful lot on how accomodating your judges are in allowing you to play to your character's strengths. I have a snow elf ranger designed for long range archery with a +20 spot. I *ought* to be able to spot an ambush at archery range, and were I able to do so consistantly I probably could have gotten away with a lower con. However, in my experience very few judges are able or willing to adjust encounters from the melee range encounter distance written into the module. Despite a good init bonus I sometimes don't roll well on initiative, hence I have frequently had a melee opponent upon me before my first action, despite the fact that I have skills that *should* prevent this. Not to mention there is the matter of area-effect spells, and sometimes the save DCs are crazy. (Good save, +5 dex bonus, and vest of resistance and I *still* have needed a natural 20 to save on occasion.) All I can say is, had I been any other elf but a (no con-penalty) Snow Elf I would have had at least two deaths by now, with a character that is a dedicated ranged combatant. If you think you can be not only clever enough but just plain lucky enough to get away with a sub-14 con, more power to you -- but personally I would always allocate 6 points to constitution (and if playing a con-penalty race buy a con-boosting amulet as a high priority item.) |
| JamesMaissen05-04-08, 02:49 PM | No. Con is useful for newer or less skilled players. However, if you paid attention to the build I gave, my party almost always goes first. In each and every encounter, as long as the other party members can see (dread commando) and hear (marshal aura) my PC, my party will go before most of the NPCs. The only exceptions are the box text autosurprises. There are a few things wrong with this. But bottom line if you're happy.. then enjoy. I would still say that the trade off for taking a lower CON is a deceptive thing and something that a newer player is not going to evaluate easily. As to your build.. I've only seen your class break down, not the stats nor the gear. But here's a question for you: when do you feel the need to retreat with your character... at what hp total do you feel 'vulnerable' and need to think more defensively than offensively? Of course this will vary on the situation, but in general is what I'm asking. -James |
| _metz_05-05-08, 12:18 AM | Ah copper, I know you really think people overrate con, but there are a few issues I would like you to consider: 1. Azrien grew up in Canberra did she not? that is not exactly the location of deadly GMs. 2. Many GMs do not specifically target Sorcerors or Clerics as much as you would think... It is a habit of going for the fighter. Archers for some reason don't seem to have the buffing capabilities of a cleric/Arcane user and hence are not as survivable. You are comparing offense amonsgt various classes without taking into account one kind of important thing: MAGIC. 3. I see the comparison between an archer and a magic user to be EXTREMELY shaky at best in terms of game roles, archers cannot fly, cannot be greater invis'd cannot have mirror image, no Magic Vestments on shield and mithral full plate, aren't blinking, etc! the list goes ON. There is for me, no comparison at all. 4. Sometimes it doesn't matter who goes first - the monster has a programmed image up, there is an ambush by someone who is superior invis'd etc. 5. Also remember that Con goes to Fort saves. Fort save or die spells are pretty common at higher levels, so the +2 from having a 14 Con is a huge benefit over just having more hit points. Disintegrate, Implosion, Massive Damage from hits, crits, and various spells, poisons, all sorts of various nasties. How many Reflex or die spells are there? Clerics have a great fort save, A sorceror has a not this time card, A wizard has crafted a vest of resistance +5, does an archer have access to these things? Archers I see that are expertly built and played get hammered all the time, because of thier lack of magic yet ranged specialisation. It means that monsters rely on thier 1/day powers to drop them and focus damage on the glass cannon early becuase they will ALWAYS be easier targets than a fighter or a buffed caster. Hence I think that people who play wizards/clerics/sorcerors UNDERVALUE constitution. |
| Hariman05-05-08, 12:59 AM | Ah copper, I know you really think people overrate con, but there are a few issues I would like you to consider: 1. Azrien grew up in Canberra did she not? that is not exactly the location of deadly GMs. 2. Many GMs do not specifically target Sorcerors or Clerics as much as you would think... It is a habit of going for the fighter. Archers for some reason don't seem to have the buffing capabilities of a cleric/Arcane user and hence are not as survivable. You are comparing offense amonsgt various classes without taking into account one kind of important thing: MAGIC. 3. I see the comparison between an archer and a magic user to be EXTREMELY shaky at best in terms of game roles, archers cannot fly, cannot be greater invis'd cannot have mirror image, no Magic Vestments on shield and mithral full plate, aren't blinking, etc! the list goes ON. There is for me, no comparison at all. 4. Sometimes it doesn't matter who goes first - the monster has a programmed image up, there is an ambush by someone who is superior invis'd etc. 5. Also remember that Con goes to Fort saves. Fort save or die spells are pretty common at higher levels, so the +2 from having a 14 Con is a huge benefit over just having more hit points. Disintegrate, Implosion, Massive Damage from hits, crits, and various spells, poisons, all sorts of various nasties. How many Reflex or die spells are there? Clerics have a great fort save, A sorceror has a not this time card, A wizard has crafted a vest of resistance +5, does an archer have access to these things? Archers I see that are expertly built and played get hammered all the time, because of thier lack of magic yet ranged specialisation. It means that monsters rely on thier 1/day powers to drop them and focus damage on the glass cannon early becuase they will ALWAYS be easier targets than a fighter or a buffed caster. Hence I think that people who play wizards/clerics/sorcerors UNDERVALUE constitution. Not me. My sorcerer started with 14 Con. So did my Rogue/Wizard, my hexblade, my swashbuckler and my kobold only has 12 con because of the -2 penalty to con. My sorcerer just got a Amulet of Con +2, which does nice things for his HP, Fortitude save and Concentration score. Having a 14 Con means more as you get more and more levels. At first level it's only 2 HP but at seventh level it's 14 HP. That little difference can mean life or death for a character. |
| dkay80705-05-08, 08:05 AM | How does the Con 14 PC handle dread wraiths' d8 con drain? Level 15 Spellsword with a 16 starting Con (retired at 20) auto-made the DC 25 Fortitude save (and used Not This Time or a Mantle of Second Chances to re-roll a natural 1 if necessary). Level 15 Wizard with a 16 starting Con (now 22) auto-makes the DC 25 Fortitude save (believe it or not... and uses Not This Time to re-roll a natural 1 if necessary). Level 13 Bard/Paladin/Dragon Disciple with a 14 starting Con (still 14) auto-made the DC 25 Fortitude save (and has no ability to re-roll a natural 1). Level 9 Drunken Master with a 16 starting Con auto-made the DC 25 Fortitude save (and has no ability to re-roll a natural 1). See a trend? Yeah, they all have Death Ward on at least one piece of armor/shield... yeah, they're all pretty effective at avoiding Dread Wraiths anyway... yeah, they all have spells/items/abilities to outright kill them... but that's typically how most PCs deal with Dread Wraiths. Simply put, I value Con as something to improve my Fortitude save (the most important save in LG, IMO), and not so much as more HP. My Level 15 wizard typically walks around with 185 HP (without False Life) and I have yet to need even half of it. I see a lot of value to a high Con, especially to a newer player. However, a smart player can work around it and/or live without it. I personally play a lot of Dwarves and Gnomes, and thus, my PCs naturally have a slightly higher Con. |
| KarmaInferno05-05-08, 12:01 PM | Dread wraiths also don't deal with flying characters nearly as well. They have to leave cover to get to you and often won't be able to make it back to that cover if you position right. Out in the open they become sitting ducks. -karma |
| Maesto05-05-08, 02:43 PM | That's nice, Dave. But I haven't seen a DC 25 dreadwraith for a long time. The past three or four times I've seen dreadwraiths, they've all been advanced, with a minimum DC 31 save, and a max of DC 38. Even if you've got a +23 fortsave and can laugh at normal dreadwraiths, at least with a decent con, you have a buffer against the really high DC effects. Buyers of 10 con - beware ;-) |
| dkay80705-05-08, 03:42 PM | That's nice, Dave. But I haven't seen a DC 25 dreadwraith for a long time. The past three or four times I've seen dreadwraiths, they've all been advanced, with a minimum DC 31 save, and a max of DC 38. Even if you've got a +23 fortsave and can laugh at normal dreadwraiths, at least with a decent con, you have a buffer against the really high DC effects. Buyers of 10 con - beware ;-) You're absolutely right. Surprisingly, I only saw advanced/evolved dread wraiths once and I didn't know they were advanced until after we killed them and the DM told us (damn those turning clerics). At that point, the Con is nothing but a minor bonus to your Fort save and a nice little buffer before you actually die. The essence of my point remains the same - intelligent players should have ways of avoiding dread wraiths, regardless of their Con, but the newer players should consider investing in a higher Con while they improve their skill and can afford to live with lower Cons in the future (which at this point doesn't really exist). Con is even less important in 4e, so this whole conversation is ALMOST moot :) |
| MwaO05-06-08, 09:38 AM | You're absolutely right. Surprisingly, I only saw advanced/evolved dread wraiths once and I didn't know they were advanced until after we killed them and the DM told us (damn those turning clerics). Jay_Ibero almost got killed by those DC 38 wraiths - the dread wraiths realized that Tracy and I were nearly impossible to hit, so they went after him - if he didn't have exactly the right favor, he would have died. |
| sCRuLooSe05-06-08, 11:15 AM | I have heard all the arguements about Con, high and low. While I am an old hand at D&D in general I am new to the RPGA and have no casual experience with the metagame. On top of that, I do not expect to have a regular group of good tactically sound players to game with. Consequently, I cannot expect to have opportunities to minimize exposure to hp damage, fort saves, and con damage/drain. Under these circumstance, even though I would love to boost Dex to 14 for combat reflexes and other goodies, I believe it is preferable to maintain a Con of 14. Consequently, the frameworks I am looking at as most appropriate are: Str 14/Dex 8/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 8/Cha 16 Str 16/Dex 8/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 8/Cha 14 So the questions become: 1) Which framework is preferable 2) Am I missing an alternate framework that is preferable, especially in a front-loaded build, realizing that odds are I will not be able to reach high levels before 4th begins. I would like to play a frontloaded support character. The options I can see are a) Divine caster (Cleric or Favored Soul are best) b) Bard c) Marshal Of these options, I currently have a favored soul character (also 1st level), so I am inclined to the latter two or a combination of the latter two. I would also like to play a character that fulfills the following extra criteria: 1) Has a decent to exceptional roll outside of combat. This is one of the reasons I want the high intelligence (that and combat expertise). A face can work here. 2) Has a good or better secondary combat roll. I do not need a 16-20 strength, full BAB, combatant with weapon focus, but I would like to do something more effective than aid when not actively using bardic music. At the moment, the best alternatives seem to be tripping with a reach weapon or using intimidating strike, but I am looking for other alternatives from the experts out there. 3) On the off-chance I can get to mid-levels, I would like to have a build that will not peter out while synergizing with the support and secondary rolls. So far the best suggestions I have seen are warchanter and outcast champion. The latter, however, costs a bit on the front end because I cannot gain the free feat at 1st (the bonuses to skills make up for the lost skill for the out of combat roll). On the other hand, the flavor is nice. Can anyone suggest another alternative. Overall, can anyone suggest any alternatives I am missing that match up with the primary support roll that also meet with the other three criteria? I appreciate all the help. Thanks |
| Jay_Ibero_91105-06-08, 12:42 PM | Jay_Ibero almost got killed by those DC 38 wraiths - the dread wraiths realized that Tracy and I were nearly impossible to hit, so they went after him - if he didn't have exactly the right favor, he would have died. Indeed...and that character has 18 con and a +21 fort save....though I really put myself in hot water there by sorely underestimating how high the DC was....after surviving by the grace of...whatever favor it was I used, I quickly planted a death ward on myself to last the rest of the fight... |
| stonebasher05-06-08, 01:04 PM | Indeed...and that character has 18 con and a +21 fort save....though I really put myself in hot water there by sorely underestimating how high the DC was....after surviving by the grace of...whatever favor it was I used, I quickly planted a death ward on myself to last the rest of the fight... Umm, from what I remember, Death Ward does not protect you against Dread Wraiths. Something about how their special ability is worded. Yup, looked it up, a Dread Wraiths touch attack is not defined as a negative energy effect, so Death Ward does not stop it. Wes |
| rpgdcj05-06-08, 02:18 PM | Umm, from what I remember, Death Ward does not protect you against Dread Wraiths. Something about how their special ability is worded. Yup, looked it up, a Dread Wraiths touch attack is not defined as a negative energy effect, so Death Ward does not stop it. Son of a... Man, you guys got off easy at that table. Ah well, live and learn. Those were empowered Con drains, too. |
| stonebasher05-06-08, 02:25 PM | Son of a... Man, you guys got off easy at that table. Ah well, live and learn. Those were empowered Con drains, too. Yeah, this ushered in a Really big argument. But it basically comes down to "Death ward protects against Death affects and negative energy." Some undead with damage or drain specifically say after the damage "This is a negative energy effect." The dread Wraith doesn't say that. Wes Also, energy drain is specified in the glossary as being for levels, and mentions nothing about stats in its definition. So, the stupid thing doesn't do energy drain either. |
| TetsujinOni05-06-08, 03:25 PM | Son of a... Man, you guys got off easy at that table. Ah well, live and learn. Those were empowered Con drains, too. Wow, so Sheltered Vitality just got a big boost in my estimate of its effectiveness. |
| Maesto05-06-08, 09:50 PM | Expect Table Variation on that one. If you're playing with just the core books, then there is _nothing_ that protects against the con drain of a dreadwraith under that reading. I don't think you should need a spell compendium spell to protect against it. I'll accept whatever ruling a judge has on my tables, but I'll let deathward stop the dreadwraiths when I'm running (and if you're going to rule otherwise, I'd really like to know at the beginning of the mod so that I can prep different spells!). Personally, nobody has ever ruled against deathward for me, and I've only heard of one table that has had it ruled that way. YMMV |
| UMiskatonic05-06-08, 09:52 PM | So the questions become: 1) Which framework is preferable Str 14/Dex 8/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 8/Cha 16 Str 16/Dex 8/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 8/Cha 14 2) Am I missing an alternate framework that is preferable, especially in a front-loaded build, realizing that odds are I will not be able to reach high levels before 4th begins. 1) Has a decent to exceptional role outside of combat. This is one of the reasons I want the high intelligence (that and combat expertise). A face can work here. 2) Has a good or better secondary combat role. I do not need a 16-20 strength, full BAB, combatant with weapon focus, but I would like to do something more effective than aid when not actively using bardic music. At the moment, the best alternatives seem to be tripping with a reach weapon or using intimidating strike, but I am looking for other alternatives from the experts out there. 3) On the off-chance I can get to mid-levels, I would like to have a build that will not peter out while synergizing with the support and secondary roles. So far the best suggestions I have seen are warchanter and outcast champion. Ok. In all honesty, either framework will work. It's a very close call for the character you want. I would start out with marshal, and you'll be just fine in battle at level one. Remember, EVERYONE is bad at first level. And, most importantly, the differences between a fighter and another class is really +1 to hit. Low levels are more about the number on the die. That changes over time, as you gain in levels, but you know that a 10th level fighter has an advantage already. I would multi-class this guy al lot, and there's no reason not to. In fact, it'll help your saves considerably. So, let's say Marshal 1 to begin. From there, you can move into paladin, hexblade, knight, or fighter. And you don't need to decide now, either. Try the character out, and see how you do. |
| MwaO05-06-08, 09:59 PM | Expect Table Variation on that one. If you're playing with just the core books, then there is _nothing_ that protects against the con drain of a dreadwraith under that reading. A high Fort Save? ;) Yes, Dread Wraiths are dangerous, but I think only in LG does someone advance them to the point of needing a DC 38 Fort Save. Personally, nobody has ever ruled against deathward for me, and I've only heard of one table that has had it ruled that way. YMMV I wouldn't have ruled that way before seeing this, but I think the intent is reasonably clear - it isn't negative energy, it isn't energy drain, it is just some kind of drain. And Deathward therefore shouldn't affect it. |
| JamesMaissen05-06-08, 11:00 PM | A high Fort Save? ;) I wouldn't have ruled that way before seeing this, but I think the intent is reasonably clear - it isn't negative energy, it isn't energy drain, it is just some kind of drain. And Deathward therefore shouldn't affect it. A question.. wouldn't a high DR work? If the attack doesn't go through (the 2d6 real damage vs the CON drain) the DR then the Drain won't either, right? Speaking towards the damage wraiths (and spectres for that matter) do with their touches.. what kind of damage is that? -James |
| _metz_05-06-08, 11:39 PM | A question.. wouldn't a high DR work? If the attack doesn't go through (the 2d6 real damage vs the CON drain) the DR then the Drain won't either, right? Speaking towards the damage wraiths (and spectres for that matter) do with their touches.. what kind of damage is that? -James I would say the damage is generic, untyped damage (DR applies) However Drain is NOT hitpoint damage so I see no reason why DR would apply. Moreover, the Dread wraith drain is not contingent on doing any damage - it says: Living creatures hit by a dread wraith’s incorporeal touch attack must succeed on a DC 25 Fortitude save or take 1d8 points of Constitution drain. The save DC is Charisma-based. On each such successful attack, the dread wraith gains 5 temporary hit points. As such the drain is completely unaffected by DR/needing to inflict hitpoint damage. |
| rpgdcj05-07-08, 11:09 AM | A question.. wouldn't a high DR work? If the attack doesn't go through (the 2d6 real damage vs the CON drain) the DR then the Drain won't either, right? I'd say it would still drain, based on "Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains." It's incorporeal touch. So I'd rule you take DR-reduced damage, but still get the drain. DR is effective against natural attacks, but not supernatural abilities. I'd say the HP damage is subject to DR, but the drain is the supernatural part. Oh, and Maesto? There's plenty of ways in the core books to avoid the con drain. Dex, bracers, deflection... :-) |
| KarmaInferno05-12-08, 10:51 AM | As a Melee character, go with Motivate Dex first. It's not for the AC, really. It's for the "PC go first" ability. That can be huge. I would not discount Motivate Charisma so quickly, however. My Sublime Chord was able to shift an NPC's attitude from Hostile to Helpful by level 12 just by taking 10 on a Diplomacy check, largely due to Motivate Charisma effectively doubling the modifier. And was able to bluff them into surrendering in the next breath with hardly any effort at all. A well built Diplomancer can be so broken it's not funny. -karma |
| Timlagor05-12-08, 11:19 AM | In Karma confused anyone: Motivate Dex doen'st give AC. "Diplomancers" should expect to meet NPCs who's idea of "friendly" is to share the loot with them after killing the rest of the PCs. |
| MwaO05-12-08, 01:32 PM | In Karma confused anyone: Motivate Dex doen'st give AC. "Diplomancers" should expect to meet NPCs who's idea of "friendly" is to share the loot with them after killing the rest of the PCs. Hey, at least you hit cap without much XP :) But the real power of Motivate Charisma is the following for a Bard-type: In general, you're not being asked to make superhigh skill checks - so you can hit the "I never fail diplomacy checks" point really quickly, but not have to invest skill points into charisma skills. If you're going Sublime Chord, you can still maintain the skill monkey skills and grab synergy skills while investing all those points in Listen, Astrologer, and a couple of other odd ones. You turn the rest of your party into an Aid Another force - it isn't uncommon for my Bard/Marshal to get 4-5 assists on every charisma skill check. Even the Charisma-dumping Half-Orc is still going to be aiding you 75% of the time. It turns certain of the Bardsongs into weird encounter killers - Countersong blows away language dependent effects. Fascinate/Suggestion can be used to get really high Charisma checks when someone tries to takeover a party member(you Fascinate the party members and Suggest them that they should do what they want when someone tries to mentally control them). And Fascinate of course can be unbelievably high - it might not work a lot, but when it does... And of course, you're not Motivating Dex, so you don't have a dead level when you show up at a table with another Marshal motivating Dex. |
| KarmaInferno05-12-08, 02:07 PM | In Karma confused anyone: Motivate Dex doen'st give AC. Correct, sorry, wasn't completely clear. "Diplomancers" should expect to meet NPCs who's idea of "friendly" is to share the loot with them after killing the rest of the PCs. That's okay, their bluff and intimidate checks are usually also high enough to redirect such misplaced aggression. :D Other bonuses: Use Magic Device just about anything, and cleric turning gets a huge boost. -karma |
| kinevon05-12-08, 04:44 PM | Don't forget that Motivate Charisma is also going to help Handle Animal, and, I think, Wild Empathy checks, too. |
| bitznarf05-13-08, 12:13 PM | .. Was already said. |
| Lupo05-14-08, 01:06 AM | Don't forget that Motivate Charisma is also going to help Handle Animal, and, I think, Wild Empathy checks, too. of all the modules around four modules where: first my druid was the character and second: simple animals were present in a crucial encounter . . . . . . none was set up to get a go with handle animal. one was written like: the enraged dire bear will attack the party on sight one was written like: the apes are so frightened, they have a -10 penalty on rolls for animal empathy (and even a druid can't spare enough points for high charisma and to many ranks in handle animals) one was written like: the cats are controlled by the catlord . . . . 'nuff said. the last one my druid tried . . . . . . and the DM decided that the party's behavior was "too threatening" ciao martin m. edit: oh and all those crocs controlled by wastrians and bullywugs . . . . . either they or the party attacked on sight - you know, sundian speciality. |
| UMiskatonic05-14-08, 04:48 AM | At my last table, I just saw a barbarian/ranger successfully talk down a mammoth. Wild empathy can work, and certainly should. Sometimes, writers and judges will try to prevent it, however, if they have that 'vs. the players' mindset. |
| sCRuLooSe05-14-08, 11:56 AM | While motivate charisma has some very nice uses, it boils down to, does the storyteller allow the mechanics of diplomacy(or other charisma skills). Being able to use diplomacy to get out of an encounter requires cooperation between you, the DM, and ALL of the other characters. In addition, I suspect based on what I have been told, that you also have to have a cooperative module (or a DM that does not follow the module like an instruction book) because most modules assume conflict. Unless you have a steady gaming group, use of motivate charisma is situational. Comparatively, Motivate Dexterity will make a difference in most encounters. In addition, most Marshalls will have decent ranks in the charisma skills + a high charisma allowing them a decent chance to succeed in diplomacy even without the aura. Based on this, while I see the value of Motivate Charisma, I cannot see taking it as one of the 1st two auras. Meanwhile, does anyone have any advice on the builds in general or their effectiveness? Thanks |
| MwaO05-14-08, 12:14 PM | Unless you have a steady gaming group, use of motivate charisma is situational. That's just it - it isn't situational. It looks situational - "I've maxxed out all my charisma skills, the extra +4-8 isn't going to make a difference unless the judge is nice." But what happens when you don't spend those 6 skill points on Bluff, Diplomacy and Gather Information? What happens when your Disguise skill jumps into the midteens without you spending any points. And what happens when most of the party successfully Aids Another. As an example, my character has spent 1 rank on Gather Information. 1, that's it. With a Circlet of Persuasion and a Charisma 22, that kicks it up to +16. I take 10, that's a 26. In a random party of 5, assume I get 3 Aid Anothers - that's a 32. A Bard with the same things at 9th level has a Gather Information maxxed for +21 - he takes 10 for +31. He likely gets 2 Aid Anothers for 35. In essence, I get 8 ranks of Gather Information for free - which gets used almost every single mod. And that's just Gather Information... Motivate Dex is unbelievably broken. That doesn't make Motivate Charisma not broken, though - it basically amounts to about 40+ skill points in a character's speciality from 1 level of a class that gives a whole bunch of other things. |
| UMiskatonic05-14-08, 03:08 PM | I'll cast another vote for the high-AC marshal/knight with a polearm. You'll be a natural go-to for leader You'll contribute to battlefield control You'll be useful in a 5ft hallway You can go in any number of directions from there, including paladin, pious templar, fighter, whatever you like. |
| Cpttylorx05-15-08, 09:20 AM | Yeah, this ushered in a Really big argument. But it basically comes down to "Death ward protects against Death affects and negative energy." Some undead with damage or drain specifically say after the damage "This is a negative energy effect." The dread Wraith doesn't say that. Wes Also, energy drain is specified in the glossary as being for levels, and mentions nothing about stats in its definition. So, the stupid thing doesn't do energy drain either. I ran a few tables of Price of Power (retired) at Gen Con with Dread Wraiths... People werent happy with me at all when i told them that Death ward didnt stop the con drain. I even made my arguement pointing out what Death Ward protects agaisnt. From what Skip Williams told me, Death ward was never intended to be the one ignore all aspects of undead spell that it turned into. YMMV But one spell shouldnt turn such high cr creatures into oh I hit for 1d8 damage. Just my opinion. Skip (sorry for the curve ball on this subject) |
| Black_Egg05-15-08, 02:55 PM | YMMV But one spell shouldnt turn such high cr creatures into oh I hit for 1d8 damage. Just my opinion. You're right, but this is hardly an uncommon occurrence in 3rd edition. Somewhere someone got the idea that they could make creatures and abilities that were massively destructive and that it would be OK if there was a counter to it. Protection from an alignment destroys whole categories of effects. Freedom of Movement destroys whole categories of effects. Hero's Feast destroys whole categories of effects. Death Ward destroys whole categories of effects. There are tons and tons of stupid-broken things in 3rd edition. The effects that those spells guard against with too-perfect immunity are just as stupid-broken as the immunities to them. The nerfing of a Dread Wraith by Death Ward is just one drop in the bucket...hardly even relevant really. |
| stonebasher05-15-08, 04:34 PM | You're right, but this is hardly an uncommon occurrence in 3rd edition. Somewhere someone got the idea that they could make creatures and abilities that were massively destructive and that it would be OK if there was a counter to it. Protection from an alignment destroys whole categories of effects. Freedom of Movement destroys whole categories of effects. Hero's Feast destroys whole categories of effects. Death Ward destroys whole categories of effects. There are tons and tons of stupid-broken things in 3rd edition. The effects that those spells guard against with too-perfect immunity are just as stupid-broken as the immunities to them. The nerfing of a Dread Wraith by Death Ward is just one drop in the bucket...hardly even relevant really. Heh, it turns more relevant when said Dread Wraith is spring attacking you from the ground. Or wall. I am sooo glad somebody posted a while back about disintegrate eliminating Dread Wraiths cover. Wes |
| JamesMaissen05-15-08, 05:46 PM | Motivate Dex is unbelievably broken. That doesn't make Motivate Charisma not broken, though - it basically amounts to about 40+ skill points in a character's speciality from 1 level of a class that gives a whole bunch of other things. Since we're talking about the 2nd aura here.. I would not go with motivate charisma. I know that you've enjoyed it, but switching from motivate dex (i.e. initiative) to adding to a save is very strong. I would rather you bring a character with 6 less on charisma skills if you make all the squishy types for one save suddenly respectable. -James |
| kinevon05-16-08, 04:38 AM | Since we're talking about the 2nd aura here.. I would not go with motivate charisma. I know that you've enjoyed it, but switching from motivate dex (i.e. initiative) to adding to a save is very strong. I would rather you bring a character with 6 less on charisma skills if you make all the squishy types for one save suddenly respectable. -James But which save would you recommend? Fort for the Wizards, Reflex for the non-Rogues or Will for the Fighters? |
| JamesMaissen05-16-08, 04:38 PM | But which save would you recommend? Fort for the Wizards, Reflex for the non-Rogues or Will for the Fighters? Depends who you play with the most. I would tend to go with either WILL or FORT. If you play with a varied group then I would say that you probably want FORT over WILL, as they tend to be save or die. Likewise it tends to be your horrible save and if you get targeted it's what you'll get hit with (anyone singing gets a fort save, anyone in full plate gets a ref save and anyone raging in light armor or firing a bow gets a will save). Mind you before LG announced it was ending I had planned to make an outcast champion with a marshal level that would boost WILL saves by 11 within 30ft. In general I think LG's nature lends itself to just one level of Marshal for the DEX aura, but if you are committed to 3 levels then I would go with a save aura to swap into on the first round. The tactics aura is nice if you always have others that will use it. While the save is almost always a help. -James |