Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 07-18-07, 09:12 PM	first question does greyhawk use massive damage rules (i know they dont for "harm" because it would simply be broken but other then that) and if the answer is yes what would be the best way to get a character to force the saves (i was thinking a power attacking halfling with spiritual charge)
Jay_Ibero_911 07-18-07, 09:19 PM	first question does greyhawk use massive damage rules (i know they dont for "harm" because it would simply be broken but other then that) and if the answer is yes what would be the best way to get a character to force the saves (i was thinking a power attacking halfling with spiritual charge) Massive damage is a core rules mechanic, so yes LG used massive damage rules. We do use the no death from harm rule though. As far as the best way to do it? Any way to get your damage up that high reliably is fine. Though you'll almost never get a kill from massive damage save. You'll more likely just kill your targets witht he damage normally...
control freak 07-18-07, 09:26 PM	also do you go power attack 5 with lance in 2 hands for +10 damage then apply the spirited charge for +30 from just power attack, then apply everyhing else (you can easly get 50 or more damage from that unless im wrong)
clannagh 07-18-07, 10:02 PM	examples ..... Medium STR 14 Paladin 6 with double handed lance and spirited charge power attack for 6: Damage .. 3d8 + 45 Same guy smiting evil Damage 3d8 + 63 Same guy critting and smiting evil Damage 5d8 + 105
Maesto 07-18-07, 10:06 PM	The most common source of failing massive damage saves that i've seen is when a wizard/sorceror maximises a fireball on a group of poor unsuspecting critters. Natural ones happen. It's even nicer when it happens to Glabrezus ;-) Greater fireburst also does the trick, and disintegrate.
ShinAkuma2 07-18-07, 10:08 PM	also do you go power attack 5 with lance in 2 hands for +10 damage then apply the spirited charge for +30 from just power attack, then apply everyhing else (you can easly get 50 or more damage from that unless im wrong) You've got it right, multipliers are handled after addition when totaling damage. If your damage with PA for 5 is, say, 1d8+14, now you've got 3d8+42 on the Spirited Charge. And just because it comes up a lot, we should all know that extra damage dice (like Sneak Attack or a Flaming enhancement) don't get multiplied by these things.
control freak 07-18-07, 10:31 PM	You've got it right, multipliers are handled after addition when totaling damage. If your damage with PA for 5 is, say, 1d8+14, now you've got 3d8+42 on the Spirited Charge. its a DC15 save or die throw which for wizards can be difficult to make;) even if they do make the throw it can hurt
copper_wyrmling 07-19-07, 12:07 AM	Because the saves are easy, the best ways to make them hurt are to force lots of them. The best way to do this without simply killing the target with damage is area-effect spells, as Maesto said, or maybe Whirlwind Attack with a high-level fighter who does 50+ damage on every hit. I don't think the spirited lance charger is the best way to do it because it's overkill - you tend to do 100+ damage to a single target, when it's better to do ~50 damage to multiple targets and force all of them to save. To do 50+ damage / swing with a high-level fighter you just need power attack with a two-handed weapon and lots of ways to boost your attack bonus, so you actually connect.
Donald_Cannith 07-19-07, 12:38 AM	that rule saved my players ass in dominion thanks to a nat one on my part
dkay807 07-19-07, 06:54 PM	Because the saves are easy, the best ways to make them hurt are to force lots of them. The best way to do this without simply killing the target with damage is area-effect spells, as Maesto said, or maybe Whirlwind Attack with a high-level fighter who does 50+ damage on every hit. I don't think the spirited lance charger is the best way to do it because it's overkill - you tend to do 100+ damage to a single target, when it's better to do ~50 damage to multiple targets and force all of them to save. To do 50+ damage / swing with a high-level fighter you just need power attack with a two-handed weapon and lots of ways to boost your attack bonus, so you actually connect. I'm pretty sure that area spells cannot force a massive damage save. The massive damage rule, as written in the PHB (don't have reference) states that "...a single attack that deals 50 points of damage or more..." An attack requires an attack roll. Thus, area spells don't fall under this umbrella. Now this could spawn an endless rules debate over whether or not "attack" really means "something that involves an attack roll" or "an offensive action taken against an opponent." In the end, it's up to the DM to interpret this as he or she sees fit, but I would say that at 90% of my tables, the rule is interpreted as I have described it.
dkay807 07-19-07, 06:57 PM	Because the saves are easy, the best ways to make them hurt are to force lots of them. The best way to do this without simply killing the target with damage is area-effect spells, as Maesto said, or maybe Whirlwind Attack with a high-level fighter who does 50+ damage on every hit. I don't think the spirited lance charger is the best way to do it because it's overkill - you tend to do 100+ damage to a single target, when it's better to do ~50 damage to multiple targets and force all of them to save. To do 50+ damage / swing with a high-level fighter you just need power attack with a two-handed weapon and lots of ways to boost your attack bonus, so you actually connect. You could also find many ways to boost your str (such as Dragon Disciple, Rage, etc.) and take Uncanny Blow (always a popular option) and coombine it with Weapon Spec/Melee Weapon Mastery and some additional damage dice from Holy or Vicious, and suddenly you're dealing about 40-50 damage before power attack on average and you only need to power attack for a wee bit to get there. Another option is a lot of bonus dice, either from various weapon enhancements, arcane strike, or sneak attack-like abilities.
clannagh 07-19-07, 07:23 PM	getting over 50 damage from one hit is easy enough for a double handed fighter .. at level 15 a reckless rage and bullstrength up to STR 30 and double handed power attacking with just a measly +1 weapon gets a minimum of 51 static damage before you roll the dice. The trick is to get them to fail the fort save. Their are things that will reduce their saves. Unluck also helps if you can get someone to cast it.
Genghis Cohen 07-19-07, 07:32 PM	getting over 50 damage from one hit is easy enough for a double handed fighter .. at level 15 a reckless rage and bullstrength up to STR 30 and double handed power attacking with just a measly +1 weapon gets a minimum of 51 static damage before you roll the dice. The trick is to get them to fail the fort save. Their are things that will reduce their saves. Unluck also helps if you can get someone to cast it.If you can do just enough damage to do 50+ every time, and if you can hit on both iterative attacks while hasted, that's 4 fort saves per round. Its not quite a 20% chance for the BBEG to roll a 1, but its close.
copper_wyrmling 07-19-07, 10:35 PM	I'm pretty sure that area spells cannot force a massive damage save. The massive damage rule, as written in the PHB (don't have reference) states that "...a single attack that deals 50 points of damage or more..." An attack requires an attack roll. Thus, area spells don't fall under this umbrella. Now this could spawn an endless rules debate over whether or not "attack" really means "something that involves an attack roll" or "an offensive action taken against an opponent." In the end, it's up to the DM to interpret this as he or she sees fit, but I would say that at 90% of my tables, the rule is interpreted as I have described it. Regional variation evidently. I don't think I've ever seen an area spell do 50+ damage and the GM not call for a massive damage save - while "attack" can have different meanings in the rules (see the invisibility spell), it doesn't seem to me like it should make a difference whether you take 50+ damage from getting zapped with an orb of fire or being in the area of a red dragon's breath weapon (which is listed as a special attack, incidentally) or being in the area of a maximized fireball - it's the same trauma in all cases. The PHB reference is p145, and the full text is, "If you ever sustain damage so massive that a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn't kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this save fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. This amount of damage represents a trauma so major that it has a chance to kill even the toughest creature."
dkay807 07-19-07, 10:53 PM	Regional variation evidently. I don't think I've ever seen an area spell do 50+ damage and the GM not call for a massive damage save - while "attack" can have different meanings in the rules (see the invisibility spell), it doesn't seem to me like it should make a difference whether you take 50+ damage from getting zapped with an orb of fire or being in the area of a red dragon's breath weapon (which is listed as a special attack, incidentally) or being in the area of a maximized fireball - it's the same trauma in all cases. The PHB reference is p145, and the full text is, "If you ever sustain damage so massive that a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn't kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this save fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. This amount of damage represents a trauma so major that it has a chance to kill even the toughest creature." Yeah, so my interpretation of "attack" is different from yours. The description of the invisibility spell is exactly why I stated a counterpoint to my own. Definitely variation on this. I and the circle of gamers I play with (which is a large one) rule it in the manner I have described. Since you're living in Bissel and quite near me now, be prepared to encounter that variation more frequently ;)
thorinXXX 07-21-07, 01:49 PM	Hijack alert! dkay807, Where in Bissel do you play? I am looking for a group for when I get home on leave.
copper_wyrmling 07-22-07, 04:25 AM	Since you're living in Bissel and quite near me now, be prepared to encounter that variation more frequently ;) It's not a variation I'll complain about, making it harder to do massive damage tends to benefit PCs a lot more than monsters ;) I just don't think it's the intent of the rules - I have no objection to other GMs interpreting the ambiguous text differently.
gomeztoo 07-22-07, 03:20 PM	Dying from massive damage is quite anticlimactic though. One PC died (maybe two - I wasn't participating) from massive damage in a game yesterday. It's a dumb way to die, imo.
dkay807 07-23-07, 11:24 AM	Hijack alert! dkay807, Where in Bissel do you play? I am looking for a group for when I get home on leave. Boston. I host gamedays and homegames quite frequently at my Brighton condo and I almost always attend some of the major Bissel conventions such as: ConnCon in March (Stamford CT), OGC in July (Nashua New Hampshire), and AnonyCon in December (Stamford CT). Further details sent via PM.
Hariman 07-29-07, 09:52 PM	Dying from massive damage is quite anticlimactic though. One PC died (maybe two - I wasn't participating) from massive damage in a game yesterday. It's a dumb way to die, imo. And I'm a guy who doesn't play high HP/Fortitude save characters. So those attacks will slaughter my Rogue/Wizard, my Sorcerer, and probably my Hexblade and upcoming Kobold Sorcerer. And maybe even my swashbuckler. If I roll low on those damn saves. Plus, after a certain point, monsters consistently do 50+ damage. That means that there's a 5% chance of a natural one on the fighter as many as four or five times a round. I really wish massive damage weren't included. It's just cheap and dirty.
clannagh 07-30-07, 12:07 AM	And I'm a guy who doesn't play high HP/Fortitude save characters. So those attacks will slaughter my Rogue/Wizard, my Sorcerer, and probably my Hexblade and upcoming Kobold Sorcerer. And maybe even my swashbuckler. If I roll low on those damn saves. Plus, after a certain point, monsters consistently do 50+ damage. That means that there's a 5% chance of a natural one on the fighter as many as four or five times a round. I really wish massive damage weren't included. It's just cheap and dirty. Its a badly thought out rule. 50 damage is only a fraction of the HP of even many mid level characters (my stonelord will break 100 HP by level 8) and damage in excess of 50 is vry esy to achieve. Unfortunately the rules are the rules and there is no point complaining about them. At least not here. If it really becomes a problem there are luck feats in scoundrel including one that converts a nat 1 on a save to a 20.
control freak 07-30-07, 12:26 PM	or survivers luck which lets you reroll saves 1/day per luck feat take that and the +2 luck and +2 luck on worst save and you do great
ShinAkuma2 07-30-07, 01:30 PM	Its a badly thought out rule. 50 damage is only a fraction of the HP of even many mid level characters (my stonelord will break 100 HP by level 8) and damage in excess of 50 is vry esy to achieve. So why is that badly thought out? It's only relevant to people who already have over 50 hp, because otherwise they're dead anyway. It only comes into play in mid to high levels. Sometimes, a single attack can kill someone, no matter how tough he his. It happens. That's why the rule exists. 50 hp damage is a LOT of damage. To take a blow like that and keep on trucking should take a lot of stamina, hence the reason that it's only a DC 15 save. By the time you can take 50 HP damage and not die, a DC 15 save shouldn't be a problem. A typical Barbarian/Fighter/etc will fail one in 20 times. A typical Wizard/etc, by that point, might fail half the time, but they have other methods of protecting themselves/making additional saves/etc so that it shouldn't happen too often anyway. I think that possibility that someone can be killed in one blow makes for great dramatic tension.
Drezden 07-30-07, 01:53 PM	I don't know what level your characters are, but trying to play high APLs with a low fort save is going to be deadly even without a massive damage save. Fortitude saves generally have the worst conseqences for failure. You really need to account for this in character planning/design. As far as the underlying thread, I like the rule. "Lucky shots" (i.e. rolling a 1 on the save) do happen in real life. I also see the rule helping PCs much more than monsters. IME, I have seen 2 PCs fail the massive damage save and at least 25 monsters. Daren And I'm a guy who doesn't play high HP/Fortitude save characters. So those attacks will slaughter my Rogue/Wizard, my Sorcerer, and probably my Hexblade and upcoming Kobold Sorcerer. And maybe even my swashbuckler. If I roll low on those damn saves. Plus, after a certain point, monsters consistently do 50+ damage. That means that there's a 5% chance of a natural one on the fighter as many as four or five times a round. I really wish massive damage weren't included. It's just cheap and dirty.
Mithreinmaethor 07-30-07, 03:05 PM	I have found a problem with some of the mounted combatants I have seen: Using a Lance and Heavy shield. Easy enough but the people I have run into playing this way want to argue that they are using the lance 2 handed and hence get the 1.5 Str bonus damage. Roll into that Power Attack and the differences there it can be a nice table disagreement sometimes. Anyone else run into this
bitznarf 07-30-07, 03:45 PM	How can they argue that they are using the lance 2 handed if they have a heavy shield out as well? Do they have a 3rd arm?
Mithreinmaethor 07-30-07, 04:25 PM	No no I know that. But I have seen it at several tables.
lseelba 07-30-07, 05:16 PM	So why is that badly thought out? It's only relevant to people who already have over 50 hp, because otherwise they're dead anyway. It only comes into play in mid to high levels. It's not really a mid to high level thing. You can see these things as early as 3rd or 4th level. Also, getting hit for 50 damage doesn't kill you unless you have less than 41 HP. A 4th level Barb will generally have this much HP (certainly while raging). Heck even a decent 3rd level barb will have 41 HP while raging (16 CON, 12+3+7+3+7+3+6=41) Also you don't have to get up in CR very far before the monsters can do 50 damage in one hit. An Ogre with a greataxe (CR 3) does 9d6+21 (average 52.5) on a crit. Ogres are proficient with all martial weapons. If you want to be cheap, an ogre with a scythe does 8d6+28 (average 56) on a crit.
clannagh 07-30-07, 08:22 PM	I have found a problem with some of the mounted combatants I have seen: Using a Lance and Heavy shield. Easy enough but the people I have run into playing this way want to argue that they are using the lance 2 handed and hence get the 1.5 Str bonus damage. Roll into that Power Attack and the differences there it can be a nice table disagreement sometimes. Anyone else run into this there should be no table variation on this, the rules for shields and heavy shields are clear and there is no room for misinterpretation - they can use the lance two handed with a buckler and take a -1 to attack with the lance (and lose buckler AC bonus when attacking) - they can use the lance two handed and take an animated shield - or they use it one handed
Puggle Halfwine 07-30-07, 10:00 PM	there should be no table variation on this, the rules for shields and heavy shields are clear and there is no room for misinterpretation - they can use the lance two handed with a buckler and take a -1 to attack with the lance (and lose buckler AC bonus when attacking) - they can use the lance two handed and take an animated shield - or they use it one handed I agree with Clannagh. There is no room for variation here. My primary uses a lance two handed and I'd never even attempt to convince a GM I was using a (normal, unmagical) heavy shield as well.
jstorrie 07-30-07, 10:14 PM	Power Attack and a good crit range is another easy way to force a lot of massive damage saves–with a x2 weapon, you only need to be guaranteeing 25 damage, and that's not particularly difficult–4 from Spec+Mastery, 1 or 2 from weapon base dice, 1 or more from weapon enchantment, 1.5xStrength mod (we can easily assume at least 6), and Power Attack the rest. Any crit'll push you above 50 and force a save, and unlike cavalry charges you can get multiple chances with a full attack. Getting massive damage off of just sneak attack is a little less trivial-you can assume about 4.5 from your weapon, another 2 or so from Strength, leaving 43.5 to serve up with sneak dice and weapon enchantments–tricky, with each die of sneak only giving 3.5 on average. You'd have to be up to around 12d6 sneak to regularly hit massive, and that's not feasible.
Drezden 07-31-07, 12:14 AM	Most well built BDFs at APL14+ cause massive damage saves with every hit, without crits. High APLs usually have so many buffs going that BDFs can normally PA for 10+ and still hit reliably. Daren Power Attack and a good crit range is another easy way to force a lot of massive damage saves–with a x2 weapon, you only need to be guaranteeing 25 damage, and that's not particularly difficult–4 from Spec+Mastery, 1 or 2 from weapon base dice, 1 or more from weapon enchantment, 1.5xStrength mod (we can easily assume at least 6), and Power Attack the rest. Any crit'll push you above 50 and force a save, and unlike cavalry charges you can get multiple chances with a full attack. Getting massive damage off of just sneak attack is a little less trivial-you can assume about 4.5 from your weapon, another 2 or so from Strength, leaving 43.5 to serve up with sneak dice and weapon enchantments–tricky, with each die of sneak only giving 3.5 on average. You'd have to be up to around 12d6 sneak to regularly hit massive, and that's not feasible.
Mommy was an Orc 07-31-07, 10:59 AM	50 hp damage is a LOT of damage. To take a blow like that and keep on trucking should take a lot of stamina, hence the reason that it's only a DC 15 save. By the time you can take 50 HP damage and not die, a DC 15 save shouldn't be a problem. A typical Barbarian/Fighter/etc will fail one in 20 times. A typical Wizard/etc, by that point, might fail half the time, but they have other methods of protecting themselves/making additional saves/etc so that it shouldn't happen too often anyway. I think that possibility that someone can be killed in one blow makes for great dramatic tension. 50 hp damage isn't a lot of damage unless you're close to 50 hp. For someone with 200 hp, it represents the same thing that happens when someone with 20 hp takes 5 hp of damage. The problem with the mechanic is the DC 15 save and the auto-death. At APL 12, a BDF starts to see this kind of thing every fight. Maybe they take 2-3 in one combat and none in another - but it shouldn't be difficult to average three every mod. At which point, you should expect a BDF to die of dumb luck every 6th or 7th mod, through likely no real fault of the BDF. Which leads to two specific distortions of the campaign: "I don't want to die of dumb luck, so I'll take a level in Cleric, Sorc, or Wizard to get a re-roll - don't ask me why I suddenly decided to worship a Luck deity after praising Pelor's Recitations all these years." "I don't want to retire too soon and I want massive gold. No one can accuse me of delaying retirement if I keep failing a DC 15 fort save every seven mods or so, allowing me to hover around 12-14 level. If the rule were something along the lines of 'if you take 50+ hp of damage and fail the DC 15 fort save, you take double damage' it would make more mechanical and campaign sense - you still could easily die from it, but it stops the distortions.
Drezden 07-31-07, 11:31 AM	Suprisingly, I have found that 50 HPs of damage is NOT something that a PC BDF has to deal with every mod at APL12 plus. IME, only Uber Damaging NPCs or crits cause PC BDFs to make the save. It happens, but not every mod. Conversely, as I mentioned above, well built and buffed PC BDFs often cause the save on every hit - especially at APL14 and 16. I agree that Re-Roll abilities in LG are very highly valued. But that is not just about the massive damage mechanic - it is saves and the d20 system in general with a "1" always a failure. Daren 50 hp damage isn't a lot of damage unless you're close to 50 hp. For someone with 200 hp, it represents the same thing that happens when someone with 20 hp takes 5 hp of damage. The problem with the mechanic is the DC 15 save and the auto-death. At APL 12, a BDF starts to see this kind of thing every fight. Maybe they take 2-3 in one combat and none in another - but it shouldn't be difficult to average three every mod. At which point, you should expect a BDF to die of dumb luck every 6th or 7th mod, through likely no real fault of the BDF. Which leads to two specific distortions of the campaign: "I don't want to die of dumb luck, so I'll take a level in Cleric, Sorc, or Wizard to get a re-roll - don't ask me why I suddenly decided to worship a Luck deity after praising Pelor's Recitations all these years." "I don't want to retire too soon and I want massive gold. No one can accuse me of delaying retirement if I keep failing a DC 15 fort save every seven mods or so, allowing me to hover around 12-14 level. If the rule were something along the lines of 'if you take 50+ hp of damage and fail the DC 15 fort save, you take double damage' it would make more mechanical and campaign sense - you still could easily die from it, but it stops the distortions.
ShinAkuma2 07-31-07, 02:04 PM	If the rule were something along the lines of 'if you take 50+ hp of damage and fail the DC 15 fort save, you take double damage' it would make more mechanical and campaign sense - you still could easily die from it, but it stops the distortions. Hm, well, I can't disagree with that. :) However, we have what we have and, as a core rule, I don't think it's going to go away or change any time soon.