Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UMiskatonic 03-13-07, 12:38 PM	Hey all, I'm toying around with Master Thrower. Mostly, because it ISN"T the best fighter PrC out there. Yes, yes, I could build another occult slayer/pious templar/whatever, but that's both easy, and dull. I'd appreciate some help w/ this one, if you have the time.
UMiskatonic 03-13-07, 12:43 PM	Prereqs include a few feats, and some sleight of hand ranks. Not too bad. And a Bab of +5 The feats are easy enough to take, and the things that give you more feats will of course help. So, I'm probably going to end up as a human with two fighter levels, though I'm willing to look at other options. Sleight of Hand can be obtained w/ rogue, bard, or cross-class. And that pesky Quick-Draw feat can be taken right away, and then retrained when you get to Master Thrower 1. So, here are some simple entry options.... Fighter 5 Swashbuckler 5 Rogue 6 Bard 6 Ranger 5 And some more complicated ones.... Rogue 1/Ftr 5 Rogue 2/Ftr 4 Rogue 3/Ftr 2/Rng 2 Bard 2/Ftr 4 Bard 2/Swash 3/Ftr 2 Bard 2/Rng 2/Ftr 2
UMiskatonic 03-13-07, 12:58 PM	Concern: Damage A master thrower will probably never rack up the BIG damage numbers that other character types could. This is a problem. Like an archer, DR will be a problem. In addition, enchanting your gear is very expensive, so ways around that need to be found. On the other hand, you'll make a LOT of attacks. Rapid Shot and TWF give you three daggers a round by 3rd level, and it just goes up from there. By 8th level, it could easily be ten daggers a round. So, anything that adds to each attack is going to be a huge help. Strength is one way, although doubletoss negates that. Also, swashbuckler insight, weapon specialization, bardsong, and favored enemy will help. PHB2 feats will also be a huge help for this. Fools' gold: sneak attack I don't think this is the right direction for a master thrower. You'll want to stand and full attack every round. That means no moving and sneaking. You really don't want to be in melee, cuz you'll provoke lots of AOs. That means no flanking. While you might be able to really wreck a flat-footed opponent, I'd rather be slightly more effective all the time.
UMiskatonic 03-13-07, 01:03 PM	Concern: DR Well, we'll need cold iron and silver, right away. That should help. DR/good will be tough, but oil of bless weapon might help. DR/adamantine is tough just because of cost, and DR/- will really ruin your day. Possible solutions: Alchemical items should help a lot. Holy water is effective vs. most things that have DR/good, and tanglefoot bags, alchemists' fire, etc. will be useful a lot of the time as well. Get a bow. Any master thrower will have the feats to use a bow pretty well. Slap on holy, get some adamantine arrows (way more affordable), and you now have a workable plan B. Wade on in. With the TWF tree you are likely to already have, a simple quarterstaff would be a reasonably good weapon. With a spikes spell, or oil of shilleleagh, you'll again be able to scrape by.
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-07, 01:16 PM	The big thing really isn't so much the build, but rather what do you plan to throw and what kind of damage you plan to do. I like Ranger 2/Monk 2/Fighter 2/Master Thrower X/Exotic Weapon Master 1(Shuriken). It is possible to make a Master Thrower build that incorporates that and Power Throw cheese(you pick the touch attack option) Another option is Daggers - they make a fine combo with Invisible Blade. Javelins can be interesting - you make a Strength specialist build and pick up Brutal Throw. Then you have the weight allowance to hold a whole bunch of them and you do a lot of damage when you hit. You can also combine this with Divine Crusader & Stormlord if you do it carefully enough.
UMiskatonic 03-13-07, 01:24 PM	Current favorite, please comment.... Bard 2/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/MT 5 This gives insight and bardsong to all attacks, and a free feat with ranger two. You'll have fair skill points, and you can start out levels 1-3 as an archer. That should hold until all the feats are in place. Bard 1: Point-blank and precise shot Bard 1/Ftr 1: Rapid Shot Bard 1/Ftr 2: TWF, quick-draw Bard 2/Ftr 2: inspirational boost Bard 2/Ftr 2/Swb 1: weapon finesse Bard 2/Ftr 2/Swb 2: weapon focus dagger, Bard 2/Ftr 2/Swb 3: INT to damage, two attacks/rnd MT 1 retrain quickdraw to ITWF, (weapon trick) MT 2 (feat) MT 3 doubletoss MT 4 MT 5 weak spot, (feat) So, as a 8th level character, you'll get five attacks/round, each doing 1d4 + 2 + INT + STR At 10th level, you'll get ten attacks a round, with doubletoss. each doing 1d4 + 2 + INT. Is this good enough, or do I need to exploit the weak spot + brutal throw combo? How badly do I need weapon specialization?
Alpha_Nerd 03-13-07, 01:28 PM	Weapon Spec + Melee Weapon Mastery is 40 dmg a round with 10 attacks.
UMiskatonic 03-13-07, 01:34 PM	Right. So, let's compare Bard 2/Ftr 4 with Bard 2/Ftr 2/Swb 3 The first build could get +4 from those feats The second build could get +3 from adding INT, +4 to +6 w/headband The first build gets into MT at 7th level The second build gets into MT at 8th level They seem fairly equal to me, I'm not seeing a clear advantage.
Alpha_Nerd 03-13-07, 01:36 PM	Also, Ranger 2 with favored enemy: Construct and improved favored enemy helps for all those DR/Adamantine and Hardness bad guys.
UMiskatonic 03-13-07, 01:40 PM	I like Ranger 2/Monk 2/Fighter 2/Master Thrower X/Exotic Weapon Master 1(Shuriken). This does have the option of allowing to buy Ammo, instead of individual weapons. That saves a ton of gold on enchanting things, and gives you nifty options like GMW and flame arrow. Also, judges are less likely to complain that you are carrying 100 shuriken. That EWM level prevents you from provoking AOs, which is quite cool. I hadn't found a good way to do that w/ Order of the Bow or Arrow mind just yet. But, you do less damage w/ a shuriken. I'll call that even with the ability to flurry with them, and get yet another attack in there.
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-07, 01:55 PM	But, you do less damage w/ a shuriken. I'll call that even with the ability to flurry with them, and get yet another attack in there. The trick is Power Throw plus the Touch Attack option, though that skeeves a lot of DMs out...
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-07, 02:05 PM	So, as a 8th level character, you'll get five attacks/round, each doing 1d4 + 2 + INT + STR At 10th level, you'll get ten attacks a round, with doubletoss. each doing 1d4 + 2 + INT Technically speaking, a thrown dagger isn't actually a light or finessable weapon. That only applies to when the weapon is being used in melee.
Mithreinmaethor 03-13-07, 03:37 PM	I havent worked it out. But create a Halfling and mix in Master Thrower and Whisperknife (RoW). Probably need 2 levels of fighter in there for the extra feats to qualify for these PRC's.
boogahwoof 03-13-07, 03:56 PM	Well, im not to much on the building process of it, but my sister in law plays one. She is curently 12th (rouge7 master thrower5), we used to cringe when she was playing with her, because she seemed a lil weak. Now that she hit the 5th level of master thrower thought, she throws 3 times a round, throwing 2 daggers a throw and criting on a 17-20, with the recent addition of a belt of giant strength, she does a good bit of damage. And i guess the most important thin is she has alot of fun with the class.
Alpha_Nerd 03-13-07, 04:11 PM	She might think about picking up telling blow. It's a good way to make your sneak attack come up more often as a ranged character.
Mad Monkey 03-13-07, 06:52 PM	This is my half-orc brutal thrower that I've rebuild for LG. The idea was to do steady damage output, while focusing on boosting just strength to improve to hit and damage. At 10th level he can, while raging, do a full attack at +20/+20/+15 for 1d4 + 13 (+9 Str, +2 WS, +2 RWM). This includes 2 bumps to Str and a belt of giant strength +4. With a 17-20/x3 crit modifier he also has a decent change to crit and do some good damage (about 45 points). The first MT trick is the Trip Shot to give him a bit of battlefield control. Even while his Dex is not that high (Trip Shot is based on Dex) it gives a free trip attempt in addition to damaging an opponent. Take note that a prone target gets +4 to AC against ranged attacks. If necessary he can be a decent archer and light infantry, when throwing daggers is not good enough. STR 18 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 6 2 points left to distribute to taste. His skills are pretty much non-existent, so putting those points in Int can give you 1 or 2 skills to max out. 1 Brb 1 Rage, Fast movement, Point blank shot 2 Ftr 1 Precise Shot 3 Ftr 2 Brutal Throw, Weapon focus (dagger) 4 Ftr 3 5 Ftr 4 Weapon specialization (dagger) 6 Master Thrower 1 Trip Shot, Quick draw, Rapid shot 7 Master Thrower 2 Evasion 8 Master Thrower 3 Double Toss 9 Master Thrower 4 Snatch arrows, Ranged Weapon mastery (piercing) 10 Master Thrower 5 Deadeye shot, Critical throw (dagger)
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 10:08 PM	Here's one: Race:Human Alignment: STR-17 (13) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-9 (0) WIS-8 (0) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Ranger)Track, Power Attack, Brutal Throw Lv2(Monk) Lv3(Barbarian)Extra Rage Lv4(Ranger)Rapid Shot(Retrain to TWF at 15th, +1 STR Lv5(Fighter)Point Blank Shot Lv6(Fighter)Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Shuriken) Lv7(Fighter) Lv8(Fighter)Weapon Specialization (Shuriken), +1 STR Lv9(Exotic Weapon Master)Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) Lv10(Master Thrower)Quick Draw, Palm Throw Lv11(Master Thrower) Lv12(Master Thrower)Power Throw, Deadeye Shot, +1 STR Lv13(Master Thrower) Lv14(Master Thrower)Weak Spot Lv15(Monk)Rapid Shot Nice thing about shuriken is you don't even need quickdraw...Chuck a bunch of them with palm throw/rapid shot/flurry/TWF/haste/Weak Spot/full power throw at +8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3/-2 for a total of (1d2+19)x14, 19-20/x3. [Edit] Here's an alternate for Scout fans: Race:Human Alignment: STR-17 (13) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-9 (1) WIS-8 (0) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Scout)Power Attack, Brutal Throw Lv2(Scout) Lv3(Barbarian)Extra Rage Lv4(Scout)+1 STR Lv5(Ranger)Track Lv6(Scout)Point Blank Shot, Swift Hunter Lv7(Ranger)Two-Weapon Fighting Lv8(Fighter)Precise Shot, +1 STR Lv9(Fighter)Improved Skirmish, Weapon Focus (thrown weapon) Lv10(Master Thrower)Quick Draw, Doubletoss Lv11(Scout) Lv12(Master Thrower)Power Throw, +1 STR Lv13(Barbarian) Lv14(Ranger)Endurance Lv15(Scout)Feat The Master Thrower Double Toss ability is a way to get multiple uses of skirmish out of a standard action, because separate attack rolls are required. This build gets you 50ft movement speed, 5d6 Skirmish damage, and the ability to apply it to your favored enemies. Isn't much of a ranged combatant until 10th level, but then you shine. Two attacks at +23/+23 for 6d6+11 by 15th level, power throw as desired.
Maesto 03-14-07, 09:19 AM	Boy, I really hate builds that go levelx: monk, levelx+1: barbarian... alignment changes shouldn't be planned!!! Anyway, my peeve aside, remember that the insightful strike or whatever the swashbuckler intelligence bonus to damage is called doesn't work against critters that are immune to sneak attack. Thus, you're still going to do jack against the nasty elementals/constructs. However, weapon spec+mastery gives +4 damage always, even against the nasties. My chicken.
evilaustintom 03-14-07, 01:11 PM	The big thing really isn't so much the build, but rather what do you plan to throw and what kind of damage you plan to do. I like Ranger 2/Monk 2/Fighter 2/Master Thrower X/Exotic Weapon Master 1(Shuriken). It is possible to make a Master Thrower build that incorporates that and Power Throw cheese(you pick the touch attack option) Another option is Daggers - they make a fine combo with Invisible Blade. Javelins can be interesting - you make a Strength specialist build and pick up Brutal Throw. Then you have the weight allowance to hold a whole bunch of them and you do a lot of damage when you hit. You can also combine this with Divine Crusader & Stormlord if you do it carefully enough. I've got a MT PC with this first build (Rgr2/Mnk2/Ftr2/MaT5/ExW1) and the whole power throw thing. Yes, you can do massive amounts of damage with this. Yes, the class also has limitations (such as DR and armor class). However, I've found that the versatility of the class allows him to fill a good general fighter role even without throwing stuff. Since the Power Throw requires a good Strength, you're probably a good fighter in melee as well - so a selection of fall-back holy +1 cold iron weapons and the like is not a bad way to go. This build can grapple pretty well, and is physical enough for other optional roles (such as scout). I plan on the rest of the levels going either into ranger (+2 levels will give 1st level ranger spell access - and there are a LOT of good swift 1st level ranged spell enhancers for that class) or fighter (+2 levels will get weapon specialization/thrown weapon specialization). Tom Thowe
jstorrie 03-14-07, 02:00 PM	What about Human (Oeridian?) 1 Favoured Soul of Procan: Endurance, Great Fortitude 2 Favoured Soul 3 Favoured Soul: Weapon Focus (trident), Point Blank Shot 4 Favoured Soul 5 Favoured Soul 6 Favoured Soul: Precise Shot 7 Stormlord 8 Stormlord 9 Master Thrower: Quick Draw, Rapid Shot 10 Master Thrower 11 Master Thrower 12 Master Thrower: Brutal Throw 13 Master Thrower 14 Favoured Soul 15 Fighter: Power Attack, Power Throw If you really want the Power Throw/Weak Spot trick as early as possible, you could start with Fighter1/Cleric5 instead of Favoured Soul 6, but given that this build doesn't get into Master Thrower until ninth level anyway I wouldn't make it the point of the whole character. Brutal Throwing +1 shock tridents for free is already pretty effective.
Mommy was an Orc 03-15-07, 12:51 PM	Brutal Throwing +1 shock tridents for free is already pretty effective. Tridents don't get the enhancement bonus, they just get the shock. Only Javelins get the +1...
Lupo 03-15-07, 01:02 PM	Tridents don't get the enhancement bonus, they just get the shock. Only Javelins get the +1... they gain the shock weapon enhancement at second level of stormlord. and as the description states "they loose the ability one round after leaving the hand of the stormlord" it seems they can be thrown and hit enemies with it. ciao martin m.
jstorrie 03-15-07, 01:44 PM	Delaying Brutal Throw by a level and taking WF: Javelin is probably a good idea for that Stormlord, then.
Mommy was an Orc 04-03-07, 10:45 AM	I haven't yet gotten it to work in a way I like, but Razor Skip Disks(from Frostburn) are very interesting with a Brutal Throw, Improved Crit, and choosing the Deadeye Shot option from Master Thrower - 15-20x3 crit weapon...