Melee scout speed build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Melee scout speed build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Banor
05-27-07, 08:45 AM So i was thinking to make a fast character with decent skill possibilities. I thought i could try to build around Spring attack so i came to that build. It will wield a greataxe and be using advantage of an inseanly fast moving speed and skirmish from his scout levels

Human Str 15 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8

1.Barbarian 1 : Extra Rage, Dodge (Good base attack, rage and fast movement)
2.Cleric of Elhonna 1 : Celerity for an additional 10 ft
3.Scout 1 : Mobility
4.Scout 2 : STR +1
5.Scout 3 : +10 Speed (now at 60)
6.Scout 4 : Power attack/Spring attack
7.Scout 5 :
8.Scout 6 : STR+1
9.Scout 7 : Improved skirmish
10.Scout 8 : Imp initiative
11.Scout 9 :
12.Scout 10 : STR +1 / Extended Rage
13.Scout 11 : +10 Speed (now at 70!)
14.Scout 12 : Track
15.Scout 13 : Instantaneous rage

I'm really not sure about the Extended Rage and Instaneous rage, dunno if you guys could find better. I think it will be pretty decent. The greataxe and power attack is always a winning combo even with a average Base attack as i'll be doing pretty much only 1 attack per round. My other question is can you charge when using spring attack or both action would be considered Standard action ?

ty for helping :)
Reska
05-27-07, 10:07 AM Find some way to toss in Dash, and you can add in another 5' increment as well!
_metz_
05-27-07, 11:25 AM I would go something like a Glaive over a Greataxe - d10 instead of d12 but reach... (adds to your range)
ThaiGQ
05-27-07, 02:13 PM I know it's a bit cheesy, but what about a level of Ranger for Favored Enemies combined with Swift Hunter so that your skirmish damage can affect creatures that can not otherwise be affected such as undead or constructs?
Banor
05-27-07, 06:12 PM I know it's a bit cheesy, but what about a level of Ranger for Favored Enemies combined with Swift Hunter so that your skirmish damage can affect creatures that can not otherwise be affected such as undead or constructs?

Actually its not really cheesy it does fit the wilderness concept of the character. I just bought my complete scoundrel and it seem that i kinda forgot :) Can't belive i acually forgot that !

For range that might be a good idea but i really hate the glaive. I just find it a horrible looking weapon :) Might be looking for another range 2h weapon :)

As for Dash, i really tried to fit it but i'm loaded feat-wise and i dont think 5ft can do a difference when at level 3 ill be going at 60 feets in combats :)
Timlagor
05-27-07, 07:54 PM You mean "Reach" -range is things like bows.

What are you doing to make up for not getting iterative and haste attacks?
_metz_
05-27-07, 08:44 PM You mean "Reach" -range is things like bows.

What are you doing to make up for not getting iterative and haste attacks?

Yes. in the rulebooks.

I am using the English language and he understood what I meant. (Increases his attacking range from 70ft to 75ft.)

occasionally words uttered don't need to be in the exact context of the rulebook, and sometimes mean what they actually mean... :P
clannagh
05-27-07, 10:12 PM 3 levels of Dervish will get you an extra 5' movement and Spring attack for free .. plus Dervish Dance and slashing blades

then there is expeditious retreat and haste

and the run feat
RedKnightofKet
05-28-07, 12:15 AM 3 levels of Dervish will get you an extra 5' movement and Spring attack for free .. plus Dervish Dance and slashing blades

then there is expeditious retreat and haste

and the run feat

Find some way to toss in Dash, and you can add in another 5' increment as well!

Both are enhancement bonuses to speed - do not stack with scout's enhancement bonus to speed...
bitznarf
05-28-07, 12:37 AM Actually its not really cheesy it does fit the wilderness concept of the character.
Cheese (in my opinion) has nothing to do with character concept. Either something is cheesy or it isn't, regardless of roleplay.
Banor
05-28-07, 03:10 AM Ok i then can i have a definition of what you meant by cheese ? To me i thought you meant like you meant it would be a random addition coming from nowhere that makes no sense with the character. The suggestion was good, while pretty strong (which i kinda like :D) and was fitting the character theme pretty well
Banor
05-28-07, 03:17 AM You mean "Reach" -range is things like bows.

What are you doing to make up for not getting iterative and haste attacks?

Well i'll have a almost full scout skirmish (4d6 / 3) and my very high speed mean that i will be able to use Imp skrimish pretty much all the time for a total of +6d6. Also keep in mind that i got Power attack with a 2hander (even with an average base attack) and rage. I can put up some serious damage (well i think so)

Also with the Ranger/Swift hunter idea, i could go for Imp favored enemy instead of extended rage (which i wasnt liking anyway).

(Sorry btw I'm from Quebec english isnt my mother language :))
Reska
05-28-07, 01:02 PM Both are enhancement bonuses to speed - do not stack with scout's enhancement bonus to speed...

I agree with the Dervish part, but I can find nowhere that Dash is an "enhancement bonus".
RedKnightofKet
05-28-07, 01:19 PM I agree with the Dervish part, but I can find nowhere that Dash is an "enhancement bonus".

You're right, my bad. Shouldn't try to reference rules without actually...um...referencing them.
Reska
05-28-07, 01:22 PM You're right, my bad. Shouldn't try to reference rules without actually...um...referencing them.

That's okay...I had to go look and see if it was reprinted in a book that I didn't have (only in Complete Warrior, Miniatures Handbook, and Savage Species...go figure).

Though, in researching it, the Scout's fast movement doesn't even stack with a Monk's fast movement. They're both enhancement bonuses....not that it matters in this case.
magebeast
05-28-07, 02:23 PM That's okay...I had to go look and see if it was reprinted in a book that I didn't have (only in Complete Warrior, Miniatures Handbook, and Savage Species...go figure).

Though, in researching it, the Scout's fast movement doesn't even stack with a Monk's fast movement. They're both enhancement bonuses....not that it matters in this case.

Not only that - the fast movement from Scout and Monk don't actually stack with most spells that increase movement speed. You get whichever one is better.
clannagh
05-28-07, 07:09 PM also, with that sort of movement, there is a variant of dodge (i think its from complete scoundrel) that gives you +2 AC if you move 40' or more and it specifically says it counts as dodge for pre-requisites
bitznarf
05-28-07, 07:12 PM I like the idea of taking Dodge initially, then retraining into Expeditious Dodge once you have enough movement to use it.
Banor
05-29-07, 12:07 AM Yea i just saw the feat, its from Race of the Wild. I was thinking to get it but i don't know too much about retraining. Can anyone enlight me ?
clannagh
05-29-07, 12:49 AM Yea i just saw the feat, its from Race of the Wild. I was thinking to get it but i don't know too much about retraining. Can anyone enlight me ?

You can retrain a feat when you level up providing you were qualified to take that feat when you took the original feat you wanted to get rid of. Being a level one feat choice the main issue will be whether or not you created the character under current LGCS or last year (old LGCS did not allow non PHB feats till level 3)

1) If you do qualify to retrain (character created after feb this year) you do it when you next level and it costs 100gc per level of your next level and 4 TU.

2) If you took dodge last year at level one and its a prerequisite of later feats you have already taken it gets tricky, you need to take the new feat first then retrain out of dodge to something you actually did qualify for at the time.
magebeast
05-29-07, 01:43 AM 2) If you took dodge last year at level one and its a prerequisite of later feats you have already taken it gets tricky, you need to take the new feat first then retrain out of dodge to something you actually did qualify for at the time.

I'm pretty sure that Expeditious Dodge effectively replaces Dodge in the feat chains.
ThaiGQ
05-29-07, 03:20 AM I'm pretty sure that Expeditious Dodge effectively replaces Dodge in the feat chains.

Yep:

"Special: Expeditious Dodge can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability"
clannagh
05-29-07, 03:42 AM I'm pretty sure that Expeditious Dodge effectively replaces Dodge in the feat chains.

yep that is very true and for a 2007 character swapping dodge for expeditious dodge at level one is fine.

The point was that if the character was created before 2007 you are limited to retraining PHB feats only into the level 1 feat choices. Thats the LG rules for retraining.

The issue for 2006 and earlier characters if they already have mobility is:

- you cannot replace dodge directly with expeditious dodge as at the time you created the character, you were not allowed RoW feats at level one.
- you cannot retrain dodge to some other PHB feat unless you already have expeditious dodge to cover the prerequisite for mobility.

Thus for 2006 and earlier characters a "feat shuffle" is necessary. This has been discussed in Britts Q&A thread.
Banor
05-29-07, 04:13 AM Alright so, basically if i retrain when i hit level 5 (where i'll be hitting 60 fts combat speed) it would cost me 500gp and 4 TU right ?
ThaiGQ
05-29-07, 05:53 AM yep that is very true and for a 2007 character swapping dodge for expeditious dodge at level one is fine.

The point was that if the character was created before 2007 you are limited to retraining PHB feats only into the level 1 feat choices. Thats the LG rules for retraining.

The issue for 2006 and earlier characters if they already have mobility is:

- you cannot replace dodge directly with expeditious dodge as at the time you created the character, you were not allowed RoW feats at level one.
- you cannot retrain dodge to some other PHB feat unless you already have expeditious dodge to cover the prerequisite for mobility.

Thus for 2006 and earlier characters a "feat shuffle" is necessary. This has been discussed in Britts Q&A thread.

Really?! That sounds kind of...uncool. If the rules have been changed so that Open feats are available at level 1 in the new LGCS, then it doesn't seem like it makes that much sense to limit current character options to restrictions placed in a previous and out-of-date LGCS. I'm not arguing whether you're correct or not, just that it seems kind of counter-intuitive to keep restrictions from old rules when the new rules have removed said restrictions.
pedr
05-29-07, 08:50 AM It's not correct.

You can retrain into any feat for which you met the prerequisites (in D&D rules terms, not campaign rules terms) at the level you took the feat you are now retraining out.

So if you want to retrain into a non-PHB feat which you qualified for at character creation, you can. Similarly if you want to retrain into a feat which you now have campaign documentation for, but which wasn't Open for you at an earlier level, you can do that as well.

Retraining Upon gaining a new level, you may use any one Retraining option in the Player's Handbook 2 192-195, following the rules listed there. The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC.Note that it says "must be Open" not "must have been Open. Anything which is now Open is available for a character to retrain into, subject to the rules in the PH2.
bitznarf
05-29-07, 10:52 AM The only difference 596/597 makes with regards to what you can retrain into are those things that became closed when we got the new LGCS. So anything that became closed at that point would've had to be retrained (for free) using the 596 access system. After that, it doesn't matter when the character was made, or when access became available.
RedKnightofKet
05-29-07, 11:06 AM If you could only retrain into options that were Open at the time you took that initial level, then you would not be able to retrain into any NONC feat you get access to, which is one of the major reasons that retraining is being allowed...
boolean
05-29-07, 11:17 AM Yep:

"Special: Expeditious Dodge can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability"

There is one small warning. Expeditious Dodge doesn't use the "target an opponent" mechanic that Dodge does, so any feats that have an effect based on who you target for your Dodge feat (Titan Fighting, Elusive Target for example) won't work with it. You qualify to take the feat, but you can't use it.
bitznarf
05-29-07, 11:23 AM More accurately, there is table variation over it working for those feats or not. The argument can be made that Expeditious Dodge targets all opponents for these purposes; or if the GM wants some middle ground, you still just pick one for the purpose of things like Titan Fighting and Elusive Target.
Gargoyle117
06-06-07, 12:14 PM Go for one level of Thief Acrobat ASAP! The ability to move at full speed while tumbling without penalty effectively doubles your move.

My level 7 Skirmisher (6 Scout, 1 Thief Acrobat) can tumble 40 feet in a round without penalty, while yours tumbles only 30 feet at level 7.

Next level I will have Cleric with the Celerity Domain, that will be plenty enough movement for my taste.

Additional side benefits of Thief Acrobat are insane physical skill checks (Jump, Tumble, Balance, etc) and the ability to stand up as a free action without provoking AoO's. If you are running through an area covered by archers you can take a full move, then fall prone for +4AC. Next round you stand up for free, full move, fall over again.

Thief Acrobat IMHO is required for any skirmisher build.
Banor
06-06-07, 12:52 PM interesting idea, even tho my tumble skill will probably be max i dont think ill be tumbling that much thanks to Spring attack, I fear that the -1 BAB will hurt me a lot (as im already low on BAB for a melee type that doesnt catch all his target Flat footed). I really like the stand up thing but i fear that id be loosing too much damage (delayed skirmish and such)
Gargoyle117
06-06-07, 01:19 PM I haven't managed to ***** out all my scout tricks, but I do believe this is a good build for my play style. I primarily bounce around the skirmish area. As a back up, I have a very good AC and can do a good job of plugging up a hallway or doorway.

Do you have any damage suggestions for my character? I've only recently begun looking for help in that department. What is the Delayed Skirmish for example?

Str: 18 Int: 10
Dex: 18 Wis: 10
Con: 12 Cha: 7

Char lvl Class BAB Feat
1 Scout 1 0 Dodge
2 Scout 2 1
3 Scout 3 2 Improved Familiarity (for thinblade)
4 Scout 4 3 Mobility
5 Scout 5 3
6 T-A....1 3 Improved Skirmish
7 Scout 6 4
8 Cleric 1 4
9 Scout 7 5 Practiced Spell Caster
10 Scout 8 6 Acrobatic Strike
11 Scout 9 6
12 Scout 10 7 Telling Blow (PH2)
13 Scout 11 8 Elusive Target
14 Scout 12 9
15 Scout 13 9 Wolf Pack
16 Scout 14 10
TWG_Prometheus
06-06-07, 02:36 PM While I understand that the goal of the build is to get a high rate of movement, I wonder if we're trying too hard here. In particular, I think the level of Cleric for the Celerity domain meshes poorly with the rest of the build. If you were taking Cleric because you wanted Cleric, that's one thing, but I doubt that the build really needs that 10' of movement enough to justify taking a 0-BAB level that isn't really doing anything else for the character. (Maybe some minor healing, but it's a terrible distraction from the Skirmish focus)

Is that last 10' of movement helping you edge into a 40' skirmish under half speed conditions? If not, I say drop it.
Gargoyle117
06-06-07, 04:47 PM A little from Column A and a little from Column B. I want the 10' move early and am willing to sacrifice some BAB for that. Since my character is an Elf, he will also get the War Domain from Corellon and get Weapon Focus Long Sword to compensate for the BAB loss. Since this build rarely takes multiple attacks, this is fine with me.

It would be nice to be able to use CLW wands or other Divine wands. The Fort and Will saves are also sorely needed. At level 7 he has, Fort 5, Ref 13, Will 3. Cleric may not be the best choice, but I believe it is not a bad choice either.

I just wanted to point out some of the logic behind my decision to see if I was crazy or if it makes some sense.

Thanks for the help.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Banor 05-27-07, 08:45 AM	So i was thinking to make a fast character with decent skill possibilities. I thought i could try to build around Spring attack so i came to that build. It will wield a greataxe and be using advantage of an inseanly fast moving speed and skirmish from his scout levels Human Str 15 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8 1.Barbarian 1 : Extra Rage, Dodge (Good base attack, rage and fast movement) 2.Cleric of Elhonna 1 : Celerity for an additional 10 ft 3.Scout 1 : Mobility 4.Scout 2 : STR +1 5.Scout 3 : +10 Speed (now at 60) 6.Scout 4 : Power attack/Spring attack 7.Scout 5 : 8.Scout 6 : STR+1 9.Scout 7 : Improved skirmish 10.Scout 8 : Imp initiative 11.Scout 9 : 12.Scout 10 : STR +1 / Extended Rage 13.Scout 11 : +10 Speed (now at 70!) 14.Scout 12 : Track 15.Scout 13 : Instantaneous rage I'm really not sure about the Extended Rage and Instaneous rage, dunno if you guys could find better. I think it will be pretty decent. The greataxe and power attack is always a winning combo even with a average Base attack as i'll be doing pretty much only 1 attack per round. My other question is can you charge when using spring attack or both action would be considered Standard action ? ty for helping :)
Reska 05-27-07, 10:07 AM	Find some way to toss in Dash, and you can add in another 5' increment as well!
_metz_ 05-27-07, 11:25 AM	I would go something like a Glaive over a Greataxe - d10 instead of d12 but reach... (adds to your range)
ThaiGQ 05-27-07, 02:13 PM	I know it's a bit cheesy, but what about a level of Ranger for Favored Enemies combined with Swift Hunter so that your skirmish damage can affect creatures that can not otherwise be affected such as undead or constructs?
Banor 05-27-07, 06:12 PM	I know it's a bit cheesy, but what about a level of Ranger for Favored Enemies combined with Swift Hunter so that your skirmish damage can affect creatures that can not otherwise be affected such as undead or constructs? Actually its not really cheesy it does fit the wilderness concept of the character. I just bought my complete scoundrel and it seem that i kinda forgot :) Can't belive i acually forgot that ! For range that might be a good idea but i really hate the glaive. I just find it a horrible looking weapon :) Might be looking for another range 2h weapon :) As for Dash, i really tried to fit it but i'm loaded feat-wise and i dont think 5ft can do a difference when at level 3 ill be going at 60 feets in combats :)
Timlagor 05-27-07, 07:54 PM	You mean "Reach" -range is things like bows. What are you doing to make up for not getting iterative and haste attacks?
_metz_ 05-27-07, 08:44 PM	You mean "Reach" -range is things like bows. What are you doing to make up for not getting iterative and haste attacks? Yes. in the rulebooks. I am using the English language and he understood what I meant. (Increases his attacking range from 70ft to 75ft.) occasionally words uttered don't need to be in the exact context of the rulebook, and sometimes mean what they actually mean... :P
clannagh 05-27-07, 10:12 PM	3 levels of Dervish will get you an extra 5' movement and Spring attack for free .. plus Dervish Dance and slashing blades then there is expeditious retreat and haste and the run feat
RedKnightofKet 05-28-07, 12:15 AM	3 levels of Dervish will get you an extra 5' movement and Spring attack for free .. plus Dervish Dance and slashing blades then there is expeditious retreat and haste and the run feat Find some way to toss in Dash, and you can add in another 5' increment as well! Both are enhancement bonuses to speed - do not stack with scout's enhancement bonus to speed...
bitznarf 05-28-07, 12:37 AM	Actually its not really cheesy it does fit the wilderness concept of the character. Cheese (in my opinion) has nothing to do with character concept. Either something is cheesy or it isn't, regardless of roleplay.
Banor 05-28-07, 03:10 AM	Ok i then can i have a definition of what you meant by cheese ? To me i thought you meant like you meant it would be a random addition coming from nowhere that makes no sense with the character. The suggestion was good, while pretty strong (which i kinda like :D) and was fitting the character theme pretty well
Banor 05-28-07, 03:17 AM	You mean "Reach" -range is things like bows. What are you doing to make up for not getting iterative and haste attacks? Well i'll have a almost full scout skirmish (4d6 / 3) and my very high speed mean that i will be able to use Imp skrimish pretty much all the time for a total of +6d6. Also keep in mind that i got Power attack with a 2hander (even with an average base attack) and rage. I can put up some serious damage (well i think so) Also with the Ranger/Swift hunter idea, i could go for Imp favored enemy instead of extended rage (which i wasnt liking anyway). (Sorry btw I'm from Quebec english isnt my mother language :))
Reska 05-28-07, 01:02 PM	Both are enhancement bonuses to speed - do not stack with scout's enhancement bonus to speed... I agree with the Dervish part, but I can find nowhere that Dash is an "enhancement bonus".
RedKnightofKet 05-28-07, 01:19 PM	I agree with the Dervish part, but I can find nowhere that Dash is an "enhancement bonus". You're right, my bad. Shouldn't try to reference rules without actually...um...referencing them.
Reska 05-28-07, 01:22 PM	You're right, my bad. Shouldn't try to reference rules without actually...um...referencing them. That's okay...I had to go look and see if it was reprinted in a book that I didn't have (only in Complete Warrior, Miniatures Handbook, and Savage Species...go figure). Though, in researching it, the Scout's fast movement doesn't even stack with a Monk's fast movement. They're both enhancement bonuses....not that it matters in this case.
magebeast 05-28-07, 02:23 PM	That's okay...I had to go look and see if it was reprinted in a book that I didn't have (only in Complete Warrior, Miniatures Handbook, and Savage Species...go figure). Though, in researching it, the Scout's fast movement doesn't even stack with a Monk's fast movement. They're both enhancement bonuses....not that it matters in this case. Not only that - the fast movement from Scout and Monk don't actually stack with most spells that increase movement speed. You get whichever one is better.
clannagh 05-28-07, 07:09 PM	also, with that sort of movement, there is a variant of dodge (i think its from complete scoundrel) that gives you +2 AC if you move 40' or more and it specifically says it counts as dodge for pre-requisites
bitznarf 05-28-07, 07:12 PM	I like the idea of taking Dodge initially, then retraining into Expeditious Dodge once you have enough movement to use it.
Banor 05-29-07, 12:07 AM	Yea i just saw the feat, its from Race of the Wild. I was thinking to get it but i don't know too much about retraining. Can anyone enlight me ?
clannagh 05-29-07, 12:49 AM	Yea i just saw the feat, its from Race of the Wild. I was thinking to get it but i don't know too much about retraining. Can anyone enlight me ? You can retrain a feat when you level up providing you were qualified to take that feat when you took the original feat you wanted to get rid of. Being a level one feat choice the main issue will be whether or not you created the character under current LGCS or last year (old LGCS did not allow non PHB feats till level 3) 1) If you do qualify to retrain (character created after feb this year) you do it when you next level and it costs 100gc per level of your next level and 4 TU. 2) If you took dodge last year at level one and its a prerequisite of later feats you have already taken it gets tricky, you need to take the new feat first then retrain out of dodge to something you actually did qualify for at the time.
magebeast 05-29-07, 01:43 AM	2) If you took dodge last year at level one and its a prerequisite of later feats you have already taken it gets tricky, you need to take the new feat first then retrain out of dodge to something you actually did qualify for at the time. I'm pretty sure that Expeditious Dodge effectively replaces Dodge in the feat chains.
ThaiGQ 05-29-07, 03:20 AM	I'm pretty sure that Expeditious Dodge effectively replaces Dodge in the feat chains. Yep: "Special: Expeditious Dodge can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability"
clannagh 05-29-07, 03:42 AM	I'm pretty sure that Expeditious Dodge effectively replaces Dodge in the feat chains. yep that is very true and for a 2007 character swapping dodge for expeditious dodge at level one is fine. The point was that if the character was created before 2007 you are limited to retraining PHB feats only into the level 1 feat choices. Thats the LG rules for retraining. The issue for 2006 and earlier characters if they already have mobility is: - you cannot replace dodge directly with expeditious dodge as at the time you created the character, you were not allowed RoW feats at level one. - you cannot retrain dodge to some other PHB feat unless you already have expeditious dodge to cover the prerequisite for mobility. Thus for 2006 and earlier characters a "feat shuffle" is necessary. This has been discussed in Britts Q&A thread.
Banor 05-29-07, 04:13 AM	Alright so, basically if i retrain when i hit level 5 (where i'll be hitting 60 fts combat speed) it would cost me 500gp and 4 TU right ?
ThaiGQ 05-29-07, 05:53 AM	yep that is very true and for a 2007 character swapping dodge for expeditious dodge at level one is fine. The point was that if the character was created before 2007 you are limited to retraining PHB feats only into the level 1 feat choices. Thats the LG rules for retraining. The issue for 2006 and earlier characters if they already have mobility is: - you cannot replace dodge directly with expeditious dodge as at the time you created the character, you were not allowed RoW feats at level one. - you cannot retrain dodge to some other PHB feat unless you already have expeditious dodge to cover the prerequisite for mobility. Thus for 2006 and earlier characters a "feat shuffle" is necessary. This has been discussed in Britts Q&A thread. Really?! That sounds kind of...uncool. If the rules have been changed so that Open feats are available at level 1 in the new LGCS, then it doesn't seem like it makes that much sense to limit current character options to restrictions placed in a previous and out-of-date LGCS. I'm not arguing whether you're correct or not, just that it seems kind of counter-intuitive to keep restrictions from old rules when the new rules have removed said restrictions.
pedr 05-29-07, 08:50 AM	It's not correct. You can retrain into any feat for which you met the prerequisites (in D&D rules terms, not campaign rules terms) at the level you took the feat you are now retraining out. So if you want to retrain into a non-PHB feat which you qualified for at character creation, you can. Similarly if you want to retrain into a feat which you now have campaign documentation for, but which wasn't Open for you at an earlier level, you can do that as well. Retraining Upon gaining a new level, you may use any one Retraining option in the Player's Handbook 2 192-195, following the rules listed there. The rules option you are gaining must be Open for your PC.Note that it says "must be Open" not "must have been Open. Anything which is now Open is available for a character to retrain into, subject to the rules in the PH2.
bitznarf 05-29-07, 10:52 AM	The only difference 596/597 makes with regards to what you can retrain into are those things that became closed when we got the new LGCS. So anything that became closed at that point would've had to be retrained (for free) using the 596 access system. After that, it doesn't matter when the character was made, or when access became available.
RedKnightofKet 05-29-07, 11:06 AM	If you could only retrain into options that were Open at the time you took that initial level, then you would not be able to retrain into any NONC feat you get access to, which is one of the major reasons that retraining is being allowed...
boolean 05-29-07, 11:17 AM	Yep: "Special: Expeditious Dodge can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability" There is one small warning. Expeditious Dodge doesn't use the "target an opponent" mechanic that Dodge does, so any feats that have an effect based on who you target for your Dodge feat (Titan Fighting, Elusive Target for example) won't work with it. You qualify to take the feat, but you can't use it.
bitznarf 05-29-07, 11:23 AM	More accurately, there is table variation over it working for those feats or not. The argument can be made that Expeditious Dodge targets all opponents for these purposes; or if the GM wants some middle ground, you still just pick one for the purpose of things like Titan Fighting and Elusive Target.
Gargoyle117 06-06-07, 12:14 PM	Go for one level of Thief Acrobat ASAP! The ability to move at full speed while tumbling without penalty effectively doubles your move. My level 7 Skirmisher (6 Scout, 1 Thief Acrobat) can tumble 40 feet in a round without penalty, while yours tumbles only 30 feet at level 7. Next level I will have Cleric with the Celerity Domain, that will be plenty enough movement for my taste. Additional side benefits of Thief Acrobat are insane physical skill checks (Jump, Tumble, Balance, etc) and the ability to stand up as a free action without provoking AoO's. If you are running through an area covered by archers you can take a full move, then fall prone for +4AC. Next round you stand up for free, full move, fall over again. Thief Acrobat IMHO is required for any skirmisher build.
Banor 06-06-07, 12:52 PM	interesting idea, even tho my tumble skill will probably be max i dont think ill be tumbling that much thanks to Spring attack, I fear that the -1 BAB will hurt me a lot (as im already low on BAB for a melee type that doesnt catch all his target Flat footed). I really like the stand up thing but i fear that id be loosing too much damage (delayed skirmish and such)
Gargoyle117 06-06-07, 01:19 PM	I haven't managed to ***** out all my scout tricks, but I do believe this is a good build for my play style. I primarily bounce around the skirmish area. As a back up, I have a very good AC and can do a good job of plugging up a hallway or doorway. Do you have any damage suggestions for my character? I've only recently begun looking for help in that department. What is the Delayed Skirmish for example? Str: 18 Int: 10 Dex: 18 Wis: 10 Con: 12 Cha: 7 Char lvl Class BAB Feat 1 Scout 1 0 Dodge 2 Scout 2 1 3 Scout 3 2 Improved Familiarity (for thinblade) 4 Scout 4 3 Mobility 5 Scout 5 3 6 T-A....1 3 Improved Skirmish 7 Scout 6 4 8 Cleric 1 4 9 Scout 7 5 Practiced Spell Caster 10 Scout 8 6 Acrobatic Strike 11 Scout 9 6 12 Scout 10 7 Telling Blow (PH2) 13 Scout 11 8 Elusive Target 14 Scout 12 9 15 Scout 13 9 Wolf Pack 16 Scout 14 10
TWG_Prometheus 06-06-07, 02:36 PM	While I understand that the goal of the build is to get a high rate of movement, I wonder if we're trying too hard here. In particular, I think the level of Cleric for the Celerity domain meshes poorly with the rest of the build. If you were taking Cleric because you wanted Cleric, that's one thing, but I doubt that the build really needs that 10' of movement enough to justify taking a 0-BAB level that isn't really doing anything else for the character. (Maybe some minor healing, but it's a terrible distraction from the Skirmish focus) Is that last 10' of movement helping you edge into a 40' skirmish under half speed conditions? If not, I say drop it.
Gargoyle117 06-06-07, 04:47 PM	A little from Column A and a little from Column B. I want the 10' move early and am willing to sacrifice some BAB for that. Since my character is an Elf, he will also get the War Domain from Corellon and get Weapon Focus Long Sword to compensate for the BAB loss. Since this build rarely takes multiple attacks, this is fine with me. It would be nice to be able to use CLW wands or other Divine wands. The Fort and Will saves are also sorely needed. At level 7 he has, Fort 5, Ref 13, Will 3. Cleric may not be the best choice, but I believe it is not a bad choice either. I just wanted to point out some of the logic behind my decision to see if I was crazy or if it makes some sense. Thanks for the help.