Morphic Whepons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Morphic Whepons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
control freak
07-15-07, 05:27 PM is there a limit to how many morphic whepons you can grow, and how long do the whepons last, i cannot find it in the description
Jay_Ibero_911
07-15-07, 05:35 PM is there a limit to how many morphic whepons you can grow, and how long do the whepons last, i cannot find it in the description

I don't think there is a limit on either. They last as long as you remain wildshaped, or until you decide to ungrow them. The limit on number however is more problematic however. It would be wierd to see a dire bear that has increased the size of it's normal weapons and grown one of every other type of natural weapon possible...but warshaper is weird to begin with...
control freak
07-15-07, 05:45 PM so, when he shapes he technecaly can have up wards of 10-15 natural whepons provided you can think of places to grow them? doesnt that break the class a little much?

also more importantly it doesnt limit that there can only be one of each natural attack, so you could grow 20 tenticals, 30 claws, 60 heads, and 1000s of other things if you wanted
King Kashue
07-15-07, 05:56 PM so, when he shapes he technecaly can have up wards of 10-15 natural whepons provided you can think of places to grow them? doesnt that break the class a little much?

also more importantly it doesnt limit that there can only be one of each natural attack, so you could grow 20 tenticals, 30 claws, 60 heads, and 1000s of other things if you wanted

No, since if you have a weapon of a given type, you can't grow another one.

And there is a table in the MM on page 296 that lists the main natural weapon types. Slam, Tentacle, Bite, Claw, Sting, Gore, Tail.

As for limits, playing a warshaper, I've found judges split on the matter almost 50/50. The passage says "Natural Weapons" in the plural but it also says you can "change between weapons" which would make no sense if you can grow all of them already.

Expect Table variation.

PS, weapon doesn't have a "h" in it...;)
CdrcJsn
07-15-07, 07:40 PM PS, weapon doesn't have a "h" in it...;)

(Is the OP the originator of 'whepon' on these boards?!? I knew others were using it for fun, I thought the OP was too...)

As for the Morphic Weapon, it takes a move action to grow a weapon, so it's nice if you're the type to stay shifted the entire time (i.e. wildshape druids with Natural Spell), but not so great if you're in town in non-shifted form and get ambushed or must use an ability or spell to shift forms (Bear Warrior or Druids with the Shapeshift alternate ability).
King Kashue
07-15-07, 08:00 PM (Is the OP the originator of 'whepon' on these boards?!? I knew others were using it for fun, I thought the OP was too...)

He is indeed the originator of the unique spelling...and no, he's not being ironic (or at least wasn't to begin with, and given the other spelling innovations in his posts, I don't think he is currently)

As for the Morphic Weapon, it takes a move action to grow a weapon, so it's nice if you're the type to stay shifted the entire time (i.e. wildshape druids with Natural Spell), but not so great if you're in town in non-shifted form and get ambushed or must use an ability or spell to shift forms (Bear Warrior or Druids with the Shapeshift alternate ability).

For Bear warriors, it's actually balanced, since they have to trade move actions for later multiple attacks. It's for Druids that it's unbalanced, since they can get themselves to eight attacks per round pretty easily.

I actually subscribe to the multiple weapon interpretation, but with my bear warrior, the most I ever grow is a gore and a tail slap. "Growing a slam" makes no sense to me, a sting seems to take up the "same slot" as the tail, and growing a tentacle out of my side just seems stupid :D
control freak
07-15-07, 09:31 PM Expect Table variation.

PS, weapon doesn't have a "h" in it...

Expect Table Variation ;) :D
bitznarf
07-15-07, 11:47 PM Bah.
control freak
07-16-07, 12:04 AM but seriously it doesnt say "grow primary natural weapons" so if you find a natural weapon in any open book you can use it technecaly (does that mean you can use hurl magma as a magma hurdler, does that also enable things like rend and rake exct? because that could potentialy be so abusive)

i can see if thats all true druids going ok ill full attack

"claw claw, rend, rake, bite, slam, horn, gore, tail slap, tentical, (eye ray????lol) rope slap(or whatever the ropers thing is) and probably 3-4 more i cant think of

i can not be sure but i would think 20 or so attacks from a PC would qualify as broke, im also even more positive that gaining the pounce from lion is so abusive that its just not right (ok ill charge and attack 20 times)
King Kashue
07-16-07, 02:13 AM but seriously it doesnt say "grow primary natural weapons" so if you find a natural weapon in any open book you can use it technecaly (does that mean you can use hurl magma as a magma hurdler, does that also enable things like rend and rake exct? because that could potentialy be so abusive)

No, those are special attacks, not natural weapons.
CdrcJsn
07-16-07, 02:22 AM Open your Monster Manual to page 296.

Look at the bottom table (Table 5-1).

Those are the attack forms that most judges will allow.

Don't expect to get Rake, Rend, Improved Grab, etc.

Cedric
control freak
07-16-07, 03:41 PM no i was expecting claw claw rake rake bite from lion, and rend is listed as a natural attack under sea cat so you can get rend

so the attack would be

claw, claw, rake, rake, slam, tentical, tail slap, horn, gore, sting, bite(lead to improved grab) and i dont know the exact rules on if you can/cant power attack with this but that would seem broken to me as power attacking for 4-5 points 11-12 times ends up being waaaaaaaay too good

No, those are special attacks, not natural weapons.

you are correct but still im sure there are some more obsean attacks you can get (is curious if you can get a acidic natural attack and snatches his MM1-MM4 to look it up)
CdrcJsn
07-16-07, 04:09 PM no i was expecting claw claw rake rake bite from lion, and rend is listed as a natural attack under sea cat so you can get rend

Open your Monster Manual to page 296.

Look at the bottom table (Table 5-1).

Those are the attack forms that most judges will allow.

Don't expect to get Rake, Rend, Improved Grab, etc.

Cedric

If you try to cheese it more than that, expect most judges to restrict you to a single morphic weapon out of spite.
control freak
07-16-07, 04:17 PM If you try to cheese it more than that, expect most judges to restrict you to a single morphic weapon out of spite.

with the exception of gencon and origens i know all the DMs and they agree if i can show them any irregular natural attacks (ie the rend, and wing slap) im allowed to create this monstrosity, provided i describe everything i grow

ok so my 1 winged lion with a tentical coming out of its head a rhino horn on the tentical, a tail with a spike on it, and very very sharp claws charges and flails around you smashing down everything, one DM said there should be a will save to not fall over laughing when looking at it
King Kashue
07-16-07, 04:30 PM with the exception of gencon and origens i know all the DMs and they agree if i can show them any irregular natural attacks (ie the rend, and wing slap) im allowed to create this monstrosity, provided i describe everything i grow

Your friends being willing to change their rulings just because they know you isn't a terribly compelling argument...it's actually more like "a reason they should no longer be allowed to DM Living Greyhawk"...

And seriously, get Firefox...there's a spell check feature built right in...
control freak
07-16-07, 04:35 PM And seriously, get Firefox...there's a spell check feature built right in...

my parents have something against foxfire and will not let me put it on thier comps

and as for a reason they shouldnt DM, they look at it like this, if theres no ruleing against it and when i read it i do not see a limit, it is limited by the 1 of rule only and frankly no judge is allowed to limit you to 1 (you may have to deal with it then later inform a senior GM but no judge can limit you to 1) they might say "only the ones listed" thats fine but unless it tells you "JUST 1" thats why it tells you not more then 1 of each type :rolleyes:
KShaver
07-16-07, 08:27 PM ..no judge is allowed to limit you to 1 (you may have to deal with it then later inform a senior GM but no judge can limit you to 1) they might say "only the ones listed" thats fine but unless it tells you "JUST 1"

I would limit it at my table, and I don't forsee a senior GM stepping over that decision. My reading of the ability shows that it only allows one or one set of grown natural weapons. The only place where the ability refers to using it multiple times it states you may change morphic weapons as often as you like, it says nothing about continuing to make new sets. At no point does the ability state you may grow X and Y at the same time, it always uses the term OR. Combine that with the paragraph regarding changing morphic weapons, and you have yourself 1 and only 1 set of grow weapons.
control freak
07-16-07, 08:48 PM "the morphic Weapons need to be natural Weapons"

last time i check the word Weapons was plural

and the title of the ablity is even Morphic Weapons not Morphic Weapon

however i wouldnt build one simply because i HATE druids (all my charcaters have full plates by end of level 2 because i like high AC and saves save 1 rogue which i regret making) its simply a observation for a home game ^^ where i intend to be a gold dragon and we are going till we reach level 40 or so or are TPKed compleatly
KShaver
07-17-07, 08:06 AM Last time I checked the word Weapons was plural, and the title of the abilty is even Morphic Weapons not Morphic Weapon.

However, I wouldn't build one simply because I hate druids (all my characters have full plate by end of level 2 because i like high AC and saves, save 1 rogue which I regret making). It is simply an observation for a home game ^^ where I intend to be a gold dragon and we are going 'till we reach level 40 or so, or are TPKed completely

Edit edit edit...edit edit edit, that looks a little better.

The ability may be called morphic weapons, but that doesn't necessarily refer to being able to make half a dozen weapons at one time. It might be referring to the fact that you have several choices on what you can make. It might also be referring to the possibility of making a pair of claws as one of your options.
KarmaInferno
07-17-07, 10:38 AM I have no issues with multiple weapons being grown. It takes multiple rounds to do so and running around out of combat with them out can cause serious problems for the character, especially in a city where the guard may very well try to arrest or contain you for clearly being a wandering monster.

Even with all the possible attacks out, that raging barbarian with the greatsword is likely to still out-damage you.

As for heavy armor, my retired Master of Many Forms had Wild dragoncraft full plate. :D

-karma
KShaver
07-17-07, 12:12 PM I have no issues with multiple weapons being grown.

What you feel about an ability has little bearing on the how rules apply to said ability. Carefully read the official rules of the ability in question, particularly the last paragraph of it if you want to know where my stance comes from, and then make an informed rules decision based on what you have read.

Even with all the possible attacks out, that raging barbarian with the greatsword is likely to still out-damage you.

With the right mix that raging barbarian could be power attacking with his greatsword while still throwing in a number of additional natural weapons. All the natural weapons are only at -5 over his initial attack (minus focus/magic) which makes them as likely or more to hit than his iteratives.

Also remember all is fair for players and NPCs. You might just run into a hill giant/were-wolf/barbarian1/warshaper2. With reckless rage this puppy would have +14 strength over a regular hill giant, I'm sure he wouldn't be that tough with all his natural weapons improved and a few extra ones grown to boot.
control freak
07-17-07, 12:29 PM Also remember all is fair for players and NPCs. You might just run into a hill giant/were-wolf/barbarian1/warshaper2. With reckless rage this puppy would have +14 strength over a regular hill giant, I'm sure he wouldn't be that tough with all his natural weapons improved and a few extra ones grown to boot.

pift no pounce/ dervish levels? for shame :nonono:
solbergb
07-17-07, 12:34 PM is there a limit to how many morphic whepons you can grow, and how long do the whepons last, i cannot find it in the description

I assume one unless the GM tells me otherwise. It lasts until you make a different one. My own intention once my pouncekitty becomes a warshaper is to turn her tail into a stinger. I'm not going to try to add a tentacle, horns etc that can be used with her 5 other attacks+pounce.

It's pretty grey. When I run it as a GM I'd probably allow one extra weapon plus upsizing all of your existing weapons by one size category, if you have enough actions to do all that. Those changes would last till you changed forms.

Other interesting uses of morphic weapons that have significant table variation but might be worth asking about are to grow or mutate your existing claw into troll claws to grip items, or to turn your bite into a troll or troglodyte etc bite to allow some form of crude speech (although as your larynx is still in your other form, I think having a better mouth/tongue for talking only helps a little - you communicate with really sloppy accent/lisps/growly etc and wouldn't allow spellcasting in the way that the master of many forms could do). As a GM I'm fairly open to these interpretations too, but am strict about the limitations of the non-morphed form - eg, a bear is a quadruped that can only rear up to fight. When it moves, it uses its forepaws, so holding weapons in "troll claws" is problematic - useful sometimes, less so if you need to move a lot. Using a "troll claw" to toss an ioun stone up or grip a rod of metamagic though - that's probably ok in most any form.
KShaver
07-17-07, 01:03 PM pift no pounce/ dervish levels? for shame :nonono:

We'll just presume he has the barbarian alternate class ability from Complete Champion, which gives him pounce instead of fast movement. :eek:
control freak
07-17-07, 01:12 PM thats fine, charge my level 3 knight (laughs a little) that would actualy make knight alot stronger by not banning the pounce class feature

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 07-15-07, 05:27 PM	is there a limit to how many morphic whepons you can grow, and how long do the whepons last, i cannot find it in the description
Jay_Ibero_911 07-15-07, 05:35 PM	is there a limit to how many morphic whepons you can grow, and how long do the whepons last, i cannot find it in the description I don't think there is a limit on either. They last as long as you remain wildshaped, or until you decide to ungrow them. The limit on number however is more problematic however. It would be wierd to see a dire bear that has increased the size of it's normal weapons and grown one of every other type of natural weapon possible...but warshaper is weird to begin with...
control freak 07-15-07, 05:45 PM	so, when he shapes he technecaly can have up wards of 10-15 natural whepons provided you can think of places to grow them? doesnt that break the class a little much? also more importantly it doesnt limit that there can only be one of each natural attack, so you could grow 20 tenticals, 30 claws, 60 heads, and 1000s of other things if you wanted
King Kashue 07-15-07, 05:56 PM	so, when he shapes he technecaly can have up wards of 10-15 natural whepons provided you can think of places to grow them? doesnt that break the class a little much? also more importantly it doesnt limit that there can only be one of each natural attack, so you could grow 20 tenticals, 30 claws, 60 heads, and 1000s of other things if you wanted No, since if you have a weapon of a given type, you can't grow another one. And there is a table in the MM on page 296 that lists the main natural weapon types. Slam, Tentacle, Bite, Claw, Sting, Gore, Tail. As for limits, playing a warshaper, I've found judges split on the matter almost 50/50. The passage says "Natural Weapons" in the plural but it also says you can "change between weapons" which would make no sense if you can grow all of them already. Expect Table variation. PS, weapon doesn't have a "h" in it...;)
CdrcJsn 07-15-07, 07:40 PM	PS, weapon doesn't have a "h" in it...;) (Is the OP the originator of 'whepon' on these boards?!? I knew others were using it for fun, I thought the OP was too...) As for the Morphic Weapon, it takes a move action to grow a weapon, so it's nice if you're the type to stay shifted the entire time (i.e. wildshape druids with Natural Spell), but not so great if you're in town in non-shifted form and get ambushed or must use an ability or spell to shift forms (Bear Warrior or Druids with the Shapeshift alternate ability).
King Kashue 07-15-07, 08:00 PM	(Is the OP the originator of 'whepon' on these boards?!? I knew others were using it for fun, I thought the OP was too...) He is indeed the originator of the unique spelling...and no, he's not being ironic (or at least wasn't to begin with, and given the other spelling innovations in his posts, I don't think he is currently) As for the Morphic Weapon, it takes a move action to grow a weapon, so it's nice if you're the type to stay shifted the entire time (i.e. wildshape druids with Natural Spell), but not so great if you're in town in non-shifted form and get ambushed or must use an ability or spell to shift forms (Bear Warrior or Druids with the Shapeshift alternate ability). For Bear warriors, it's actually balanced, since they have to trade move actions for later multiple attacks. It's for Druids that it's unbalanced, since they can get themselves to eight attacks per round pretty easily. I actually subscribe to the multiple weapon interpretation, but with my bear warrior, the most I ever grow is a gore and a tail slap. "Growing a slam" makes no sense to me, a sting seems to take up the "same slot" as the tail, and growing a tentacle out of my side just seems stupid :D
control freak 07-15-07, 09:31 PM	Expect Table variation. PS, weapon doesn't have a "h" in it... Expect Table Variation ;) :D
bitznarf 07-15-07, 11:47 PM	Bah.
control freak 07-16-07, 12:04 AM	but seriously it doesnt say "grow primary natural weapons" so if you find a natural weapon in any open book you can use it technecaly (does that mean you can use hurl magma as a magma hurdler, does that also enable things like rend and rake exct? because that could potentialy be so abusive) i can see if thats all true druids going ok ill full attack "claw claw, rend, rake, bite, slam, horn, gore, tail slap, tentical, (eye ray????lol) rope slap(or whatever the ropers thing is) and probably 3-4 more i cant think of i can not be sure but i would think 20 or so attacks from a PC would qualify as broke, im also even more positive that gaining the pounce from lion is so abusive that its just not right (ok ill charge and attack 20 times)
King Kashue 07-16-07, 02:13 AM	but seriously it doesnt say "grow primary natural weapons" so if you find a natural weapon in any open book you can use it technecaly (does that mean you can use hurl magma as a magma hurdler, does that also enable things like rend and rake exct? because that could potentialy be so abusive) No, those are special attacks, not natural weapons.
CdrcJsn 07-16-07, 02:22 AM	Open your Monster Manual to page 296. Look at the bottom table (Table 5-1). Those are the attack forms that most judges will allow. Don't expect to get Rake, Rend, Improved Grab, etc. Cedric
control freak 07-16-07, 03:41 PM	no i was expecting claw claw rake rake bite from lion, and rend is listed as a natural attack under sea cat so you can get rend so the attack would be claw, claw, rake, rake, slam, tentical, tail slap, horn, gore, sting, bite(lead to improved grab) and i dont know the exact rules on if you can/cant power attack with this but that would seem broken to me as power attacking for 4-5 points 11-12 times ends up being waaaaaaaay too good No, those are special attacks, not natural weapons. you are correct but still im sure there are some more obsean attacks you can get (is curious if you can get a acidic natural attack and snatches his MM1-MM4 to look it up)
CdrcJsn 07-16-07, 04:09 PM	no i was expecting claw claw rake rake bite from lion, and rend is listed as a natural attack under sea cat so you can get rend Open your Monster Manual to page 296. Look at the bottom table (Table 5-1). Those are the attack forms that most judges will allow. Don't expect to get Rake, Rend, Improved Grab, etc. Cedric If you try to cheese it more than that, expect most judges to restrict you to a single morphic weapon out of spite.
control freak 07-16-07, 04:17 PM	If you try to cheese it more than that, expect most judges to restrict you to a single morphic weapon out of spite. with the exception of gencon and origens i know all the DMs and they agree if i can show them any irregular natural attacks (ie the rend, and wing slap) im allowed to create this monstrosity, provided i describe everything i grow ok so my 1 winged lion with a tentical coming out of its head a rhino horn on the tentical, a tail with a spike on it, and very very sharp claws charges and flails around you smashing down everything, one DM said there should be a will save to not fall over laughing when looking at it
King Kashue 07-16-07, 04:30 PM	with the exception of gencon and origens i know all the DMs and they agree if i can show them any irregular natural attacks (ie the rend, and wing slap) im allowed to create this monstrosity, provided i describe everything i grow Your friends being willing to change their rulings just because they know you isn't a terribly compelling argument...it's actually more like "a reason they should no longer be allowed to DM Living Greyhawk"... And seriously, get Firefox...there's a spell check feature built right in...
control freak 07-16-07, 04:35 PM	And seriously, get Firefox...there's a spell check feature built right in... my parents have something against foxfire and will not let me put it on thier comps and as for a reason they shouldnt DM, they look at it like this, if theres no ruleing against it and when i read it i do not see a limit, it is limited by the 1 of rule only and frankly no judge is allowed to limit you to 1 (you may have to deal with it then later inform a senior GM but no judge can limit you to 1) they might say "only the ones listed" thats fine but unless it tells you "JUST 1" thats why it tells you not more then 1 of each type :rolleyes:
KShaver 07-16-07, 08:27 PM	..no judge is allowed to limit you to 1 (you may have to deal with it then later inform a senior GM but no judge can limit you to 1) they might say "only the ones listed" thats fine but unless it tells you "JUST 1" I would limit it at my table, and I don't forsee a senior GM stepping over that decision. My reading of the ability shows that it only allows one or one set of grown natural weapons. The only place where the ability refers to using it multiple times it states you may change morphic weapons as often as you like, it says nothing about continuing to make new sets. At no point does the ability state you may grow X and Y at the same time, it always uses the term OR. Combine that with the paragraph regarding changing morphic weapons, and you have yourself 1 and only 1 set of grow weapons.
control freak 07-16-07, 08:48 PM	"the morphic Weapons need to be natural Weapons" last time i check the word Weapons was plural and the title of the ablity is even Morphic Weapons not Morphic Weapon however i wouldnt build one simply because i HATE druids (all my charcaters have full plates by end of level 2 because i like high AC and saves save 1 rogue which i regret making) its simply a observation for a home game ^^ where i intend to be a gold dragon and we are going till we reach level 40 or so or are TPKed compleatly
KShaver 07-17-07, 08:06 AM	Last time I checked the word Weapons was plural, and the title of the abilty is even Morphic Weapons not Morphic Weapon. However, I wouldn't build one simply because I hate druids (all my characters have full plate by end of level 2 because i like high AC and saves, save 1 rogue which I regret making). It is simply an observation for a home game ^^ where I intend to be a gold dragon and we are going 'till we reach level 40 or so, or are TPKed completely Edit edit edit...edit edit edit, that looks a little better. The ability may be called morphic weapons, but that doesn't necessarily refer to being able to make half a dozen weapons at one time. It might be referring to the fact that you have several choices on what you can make. It might also be referring to the possibility of making a pair of claws as one of your options.
KarmaInferno 07-17-07, 10:38 AM	I have no issues with multiple weapons being grown. It takes multiple rounds to do so and running around out of combat with them out can cause serious problems for the character, especially in a city where the guard may very well try to arrest or contain you for clearly being a wandering monster. Even with all the possible attacks out, that raging barbarian with the greatsword is likely to still out-damage you. As for heavy armor, my retired Master of Many Forms had Wild dragoncraft full plate. :D -karma
KShaver 07-17-07, 12:12 PM	I have no issues with multiple weapons being grown. What you feel about an ability has little bearing on the how rules apply to said ability. Carefully read the official rules of the ability in question, particularly the last paragraph of it if you want to know where my stance comes from, and then make an informed rules decision based on what you have read. Even with all the possible attacks out, that raging barbarian with the greatsword is likely to still out-damage you. With the right mix that raging barbarian could be power attacking with his greatsword while still throwing in a number of additional natural weapons. All the natural weapons are only at -5 over his initial attack (minus focus/magic) which makes them as likely or more to hit than his iteratives. Also remember all is fair for players and NPCs. You might just run into a hill giant/were-wolf/barbarian1/warshaper2. With reckless rage this puppy would have +14 strength over a regular hill giant, I'm sure he wouldn't be that tough with all his natural weapons improved and a few extra ones grown to boot.
control freak 07-17-07, 12:29 PM	Also remember all is fair for players and NPCs. You might just run into a hill giant/were-wolf/barbarian1/warshaper2. With reckless rage this puppy would have +14 strength over a regular hill giant, I'm sure he wouldn't be that tough with all his natural weapons improved and a few extra ones grown to boot. pift no pounce/ dervish levels? for shame :nonono:
solbergb 07-17-07, 12:34 PM	is there a limit to how many morphic whepons you can grow, and how long do the whepons last, i cannot find it in the description I assume one unless the GM tells me otherwise. It lasts until you make a different one. My own intention once my pouncekitty becomes a warshaper is to turn her tail into a stinger. I'm not going to try to add a tentacle, horns etc that can be used with her 5 other attacks+pounce. It's pretty grey. When I run it as a GM I'd probably allow one extra weapon plus upsizing all of your existing weapons by one size category, if you have enough actions to do all that. Those changes would last till you changed forms. Other interesting uses of morphic weapons that have significant table variation but might be worth asking about are to grow or mutate your existing claw into troll claws to grip items, or to turn your bite into a troll or troglodyte etc bite to allow some form of crude speech (although as your larynx is still in your other form, I think having a better mouth/tongue for talking only helps a little - you communicate with really sloppy accent/lisps/growly etc and wouldn't allow spellcasting in the way that the master of many forms could do). As a GM I'm fairly open to these interpretations too, but am strict about the limitations of the non-morphed form - eg, a bear is a quadruped that can only rear up to fight. When it moves, it uses its forepaws, so holding weapons in "troll claws" is problematic - useful sometimes, less so if you need to move a lot. Using a "troll claw" to toss an ioun stone up or grip a rod of metamagic though - that's probably ok in most any form.
KShaver 07-17-07, 01:03 PM	pift no pounce/ dervish levels? for shame :nonono: We'll just presume he has the barbarian alternate class ability from Complete Champion, which gives him pounce instead of fast movement. :eek:
control freak 07-17-07, 01:12 PM	thats fine, charge my level 3 knight (laughs a little) that would actualy make knight alot stronger by not banning the pounce class feature