Post/Author/DateTime	Post
catsclaw 07-10-07, 05:08 PM	I just got back from Origins, and ran across the first "seriously" broken PC I've seen. By seriously broken, I mean so overpowered he could have single-handedly run the mod himself. The other characters were basically reduced to watching him fight the combats. He was a level 7 Arcane Hierophant, with a Tiger companion. Enlarged, the tiger is huge, and has two claw attacks, a bite attack, two rake attacks, improved grab, *and* pounce. Add in various cheap goodies like Swift Fly, and it's a serious issue. The final battle (where the head badguy has 90 hitpoints) the tiger did 100+ hp of damage at the top of the initiative, and killed him outright. Anyone else got a better one?
Eric Anondson 07-10-07, 05:12 PM	Yes, druids are exceptional.
trollbill 07-10-07, 05:16 PM	Are you saying the guy had a 7th-level Arcane Hierophant, i.e. 14th-level character? Or are you saying he was a 7th-level character with levels in Arcane Heirophant? If the former, 100 pts at 14th level isn't too excessive. If the latter, he wasn't just broken, he was illegal. The earliest you can possibly get Arcane Heirophant is 8th-level because of the BAB restriction.
catsclaw 07-10-07, 05:27 PM	If the latter, he wasn't just broken, he was illegal. The earliest you can possibly get Arcane Heirophant is 8th-level because of the BAB restriction.He may have been level 8; at any rate, he was playing at an APL 6 table.
control freak 07-10-07, 06:08 PM	shadow magic wizards.... (shudders)
bitznarf 07-10-07, 06:14 PM	I think I need to agree with control_freak on this one. Shadowcraft Mages with Earth Spell and Metamagic School Focus can easily break the game. Doubly so with Arcane Disciple(Luck) tossed in: cast miracle up to 3 times a day out of 8th level slots anyone? However, this is a specific combination rather than one particular rules option. Individually I don't think any of these are broken.
Mattastrophic 07-10-07, 07:20 PM	Wizard. -Matt
dkay807 07-10-07, 07:28 PM	I think I need to agree with control_freak on this one. Shadowcraft Mages with Earth Spell and Metamagic School Focus can easily break the game. Doubly so with Arcane Disciple(Luck) tossed in: cast miracle up to 3 times a day out of 8th level slots anyone? However, this is a specific combination rather than one particular rules option. Individually I don't think any of these are broken. As has been stated earlier, Arcane Disciple does not work with Shadow Illusion. Arcane Disciple lets you add the spell to YOUR spell list. Shadow Illusion requires that the spell be a "sorceror/wizard spell" of a particular school and type (i.e. it must be listed in a rulebook as such). I know the difference isn't exactly "in your face" explicit, but it's clear enough. I don't want to start a rules debate on this thread or this forum... but I thought I'd clear that up again. However, I agree that Shadowcraft Mage with the whole Earth Spell combo is pretty insane. I currently play one that uses it (and I don't even have metamagic school focus yet - it's coming in three levels when he hits 15th). In fact, I'd argue that at higher levels, it's one of the most broken open classes in LG.
bitznarf 07-10-07, 07:33 PM	As has been stated earlier, Arcane Disciple does not work with Shadow Illusion. Arcane Disciple lets you add the spell to YOUR spell list. Shadow Illusion requires that the spell be a "sorceror/wizard spell" of a particular school and type (i.e. it must be listed in a rulebook as such). I know the difference isn't exactly "in your face" explicit, but it's clear enough. I don't want to start a rules debate on this thread or this forum... but I thought I'd clear that up again. I'll agree that there would be table variation on this trick, yes. I also agree that the trick probably violates the RAI. But that is about as far as I'll go on that.
dkay807 07-10-07, 07:35 PM	I believe Dervish to be one of the broken open prestige classes in LG. Whereas there are many overlypowerful prestige classes, I don't feel that many are broken (i.e. break an inherent rule or barrier in the game). Dervish is amongst the cream that rises to the top. All of the amazing class abilities aside, being able to move and full attack alone is what makes the class broken. However, when that compounds with the fact that it's a full BAB, two high saves, d10 hit dice, great class skills, and amazing abilities at each level (intiative bonuses, AC bonuses, free feats to name a few)... the class becomes broken AND overpowered. Finally, when you throw in the +1 to hit and damage at every odd level (any melee PC's wet dream), the class becomes absolutely silly. I won't get started on Thousand Cuts. I retrained my 16th level Lasher (9 lasher levels) into a 16th level Dervish (10 Dervish levels) just for fun in Year 5 during the CY595 conversion so that I could try it out, knowing I only had about 3 modules left... the class was far too powerful. Thousand Cuts ended every single combat immediately (except for an untiered interactive final 5 year plot arc combat) and left the other players shaking their heads. Thankfully I was playing with close friends or I'd be ashamed to be playing the character.
clannagh 07-10-07, 07:44 PM	shadow magic wizards.... (shudders) not open
Lupo 07-10-07, 07:51 PM	I believe Dervish to be one of the broken open prestige classes in LG. Whereas there are many overlypowerful prestige classes, I don't feel that many are broken (i.e. break an inherent rule or barrier in the game). Dervish is amongst the cream that rises to the top. All of the amazing class abilities aside, being able to move and full attack alone is what makes the class broken. However, when that compounds with the fact that it's a full BAB, two high saves, d10 hit dice, great class skills, and amazing abilities at each level (intiative bonuses, AC bonuses, free feats to name a few)... the class becomes broken AND overpowered. Finally, when you throw in the +1 to hit and damage at every odd level (any melee PC's wet dream), the class becomes absolutely silly. I won't get started on Thousand Cuts. I retrained my 16th level Lasher (9 lasher levels) into a 16th level Dervish (10 Dervish levels) just for fun in Year 5 during the CY595 conversion so that I could try it out, knowing I only had about 3 modules left... the class was far too powerful. Thousand Cuts ended every single combat immediately (except for an untiered interactive final 5 year plot arc combat) and left the other players shaking their heads. Thankfully I was playing with close friends or I'd be ashamed to be playing the character. :) the moment GOOD melee damage dealer builds get toe-to-toe to almost anything, the "anything" has a hard time ;) today i saw a melee dwarf (level 10 or 11) doing some 200 - 300 hp/round damage REPEATEDLY - ok, there were some buffs, a bard and a righteous wrath of the faithful running. the poor "anything" was really annoyed that my cleric added "earth hammer" to the dwarf's weapon in a moment's thought - i knew nothing about the "stoneskin", so his wonderful, expensive "stoneskin" helped him just nothing :P. ok, we as well encountered nasty critters with the "elusive target" feat, hell were the power attackers UNHAPPY :rolleyes: ciao martin m.
dkay807 07-10-07, 08:02 PM	:) the moment GOOD melee damage dealer builds get toe-to-toe to almost anything, the "anything" has a hard time ;) today i saw a melee dwarf (level 10 or 11) doing some 200 - 300 hp/round damage REPEATEDLY - ok, there were some buffs, a bard and a righteous wrath of the faithful running. the poor "anything" was really annoyed that my cleric added "earth hammer" to the dwarf's weapon in a moment's thought - i knew nothing about the "stoneskin", so his wonderful, expensive "stoneskin" helped him just nothing :P. ok, we as well encountered nasty critters with the "elusive target" feat, hell were the power attackers UNHAPPY :rolleyes: ciao martin m. Repeated 300 damage per round for any melee PC that's high enough level is easy. However, being able to dish it out and not have to take it back is silly.
Mattastrophic 07-10-07, 08:08 PM	Repeated 300 damage per round for any melee PC that's high enough level is easy. However, being able to dish it out and not have to take it back is silly. It doesn't require Dervish to do that, you know. Just having one level of Wizard is enough for Benign Transposition, or a familiar that can activate a Cape of the Mountebank for you. Or read a Scroll of Dimension Door. Dervish is pretty cool, but the light armor restriction and the no-shield deal help to reign it in. Thousand Cuts comes at 15th. At 15th, you're SUPPOSED to be catastrophically powerful. -Matt
dkay807 07-10-07, 08:17 PM	It doesn't require Dervish to do that, you know. Just having one level of Wizard is enough for Benign Transposition, or a familiar that can activate a Cape of the Mountebank for you. Or read a Scroll of Dimension Door. Dervish is pretty cool, but the light armor restriction and the no-shield deal help to reign it in. Thousand Cuts comes at 15th. At 15th, you're SUPPOSED to be catastrophically powerful. -Matt Help me understand how Benign Transposition 3 times a day at most with 1 wizard level is at all a reliable tactic. On top of that, help me understand how you can do it as a free action without being able to cast 5th level spells or a casting glove with a rod of lesser quicken so that you can actually accomplish the full attack. Even still, you're EXTREMELY limited on how often you can use the tactic. Cape of the Mountebank works once a day - Even worse. It's great to get your ass out of a Forcecage or other sticky situation, but that's about it. Scrolls of Dimension door are expensive and you need a certain caster level to cast them, not to mention the action required to draw and read them. Relying on a party member to constantly move you around costs his spells and his actions, essentially requiring two PCs to have something near the power of one Dervish. I won't get into the frequency of Dimensional Lock and Anticipate Teleport at higher APLs. WRT Light Armor and no shield... they're very small prices to pay for the other benefits. Elaborate Parry and the attack bonus from Dervish Dance nets you +7 AC, and another +3 from the class Dodge bonus totals to +10 with a +1 extra attack bonus left over to spare.
clannagh 07-10-07, 08:28 PM	Dervish is pretty cool, but the light armor restriction and the no-shield deal help to reign it in. -Matt would you get away with an animated shield ?
dkay807 07-10-07, 09:35 PM	would you get away with an animated shield ? No. Benefitting from an animated shield functions in all ways as weilding any shield of the same type without the animated enhancement. The sole difference is that it does not require the use of any hands.
Mattastrophic 07-10-07, 09:52 PM	Help me understand how Benign Transposition 3 times a day at most with 1 wizard level is at all a reliable tactic. Point being, you don't need to be a Dervish to full-attack and get away. -Matt
dkay807 07-10-07, 10:51 PM	Point being, you don't need to be a Dervish to full-attack and get away. -Matt Not a single one of your proposed tactics will allow you to full attack and get away. Not one.
boogahwoof 07-10-07, 11:00 PM	Well I guess my answer would be a specific build a guy in our group has. Its a 7th level paladin, 5th halfling outrider, 1 wild plain rider. He only does about 125 on a charge, but he ends up 150 feet away at the end of it. So every round hes doing damage and always safe at the end of the round.
Mattastrophic 07-11-07, 02:44 AM	Not a single one of your proposed tactics will allow you to full attack and get away. Not one. Getting too far off-topic now. At this point, if you can't see it, I guess that's it. -Matt
jstorrie 07-11-07, 03:46 AM	Cleric.
_metz_ 07-11-07, 04:51 AM	I just got back from Origins, and ran across the first "seriously" broken PC I've seen. By seriously broken, I mean so overpowered he could have single-handedly run the mod himself. The other characters were basically reduced to watching him fight the combats. He was a level 7 Arcane Hierophant, with a Tiger companion. Enlarged, the tiger is huge, and has two claw attacks, a bite attack, two rake attacks, improved grab, *and* pounce. Add in various cheap goodies like Swift Fly, and it's a serious issue. The final battle (where the head badguy has 90 hitpoints) the tiger did 100+ hp of damage at the top of the initiative, and killed him outright. Anyone else got a better one? How was the Tiger enlarged? As a magical beast, neither animal growth or enlarge person would work. As you said, the character was 8th level, that means that at BEST the companion is for a 5 hit die druid. Thats no Tigers allowed. (excluding perhaps natural bond) Natural Bond is very rare, so the character MAY not have had it. It sounds more like the character wasn't broken, just illegal. Without a critical, I find it hard to believe the tiger did 100+ points of damage in one round. An 8th level AH (with natural bond for example) tiger without a critical, on MAX damage hitting every attack, would do 70 damage on max rolls. Hardly anything if the creature has DR 10. A well built fighter at APL 8 will pound out much more round in round out. An empowered scorching ray does 12d6 damage as well, and is pretty easy to produce at APL 8. And if a critical WAS involved, then thats an outlier, a charging power attacking Barbarian with a greataxe can do over 100 points of damage VERY easily on a crit. 8th level Arcane Heirophants are by no means broken, its only at high levels they get scary. I don't think that's broken at all.
Banor 07-11-07, 06:34 AM	How was the Tiger enlarged? As a magical beast, neither animal growth or enlarge person would work. Arcane Heirophant consider their Companion Familiar as normal animal for harmless spells. (RoW p109) It can be done. Also arcane Heirophant at player level 8 (4 druid/3wizard/2AH) would have a Effective Druid level of 6, still short of the tiger requirement but still. Natural Bound isnt totally of out the way as it seem that some region can give easy acces to it.
_metz_ 07-11-07, 08:11 AM	Arcane Heirophant consider their Companion Familiar as normal animal for harmless spells. (RoW p109) It can be done. Also arcane Heirophant at player level 8 (4 druid/3wizard/2AH) would have a Effective Druid level of 6, still short of the tiger requirement but still. Natural Bound isn't totally of out the way as it seem that some region can give easy access to it. That doesn't explain how its casting 5th level spells though then... At best would have 3rd level spells at 8th level, 4th at 9th. Its an 11th level Arcane Heirophant that can cast animal growth.
Banor 07-11-07, 08:49 AM	Yea you got a big point there, im not too familiar with druid spell list :)
Maesto 07-11-07, 09:54 AM	Rapid enlarge person on kitty because you're an arcane heirophant. Second level spell. Or just straight enlarge person... Remember, familiars can have person spells put on them. My votes: Shadowcraft Mage + Earth Spell = silliness I don't know of any other arcane combination which is so versatile and, well, stupid. Don't like this class at all. Fatespinners - should lose the CL at level 1, not level 5. It's too cheap for a PRC for what it offers. Dervish for the fighters. I looked at dervish vs melee fighter; barring huge critical hits (think full power attack charge, x4 crit), there is no way that a melee fighter can win. The exception being, of course, if the fighter can outlast the dervish's dance, which is highly unlikely. Given that most dervishes have tumble so high that being prone is only a free action to fix (taking 10, no less)... No, don't like this one. Add in a ring of freedom of movement, and this guy is unstoppable in melee. Need to bring in the arcane to reign him in, and even then it's still tough. Beastmaster - a one level dip gives druids animal companions 3 levels higher than normal. Those guys are tough enough as is, no need to spoonfeed them steroids. Animal Growth, the spell. Righteous Might was toned done. Why wasn't this one? Spirited Charge. 'Nuff said. 6 x Power Attack is too much. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. You can do what now? At least, those are my opinions.
Banor 07-11-07, 10:05 AM	Rapid enlarge person on kitty because you're an arcane heirophant. Second level spell. Or just straight enlarge person... Remember, familiars can have person spells put on them. After moving 5ft from the caster it would have stopped. Companion spellbound is closed in LG
GeorgeFHarris 07-11-07, 10:17 AM	Rapid enlarge person on kitty because you're an arcane heirophant. Second level spell. Or just straight enlarge person... Remember, familiars can have person spells put on them. Beastmaster - a one level dip gives druids animal companions 3 levels higher than normal. Those guys are tough enough as is, no need to spoonfeed them steroids. Most Arcane Heirophants that I have seen are Dru3/Wiz3/Bst1. And most have found access to natural Bond. My calculations put that at a 10th level Druid Animal Companion equivalent that can share both Druid and Wizard spells (remember there are 2 options for share spells: 1. spell affects both PC and AC as long as both are within 5'; 2. spell affects AC no matter where they move.). This is probably broken at the mid-levels (8-12), but is outpaced at the higher levels by straight casting wizards and clerics (and druids). GH
Banor 07-11-07, 10:34 AM	Share spell allow you to cast a spell that is affecting you to affect you Animal Companion (or familiar) also or letting you cast a personal (range:you) on your familiar as a range touch. Enlarge person is not a personnal spell thus you cant cast it on your familiar
solbergb 07-11-07, 11:36 AM	After moving 5ft from the caster it would have stopped. Companion spellbound is closed in LG Put a saddle on the animal and ride it. All good.
Drezden 07-11-07, 11:44 AM	It is not a matter of not "see[ing] it." Dave was just pointing out that none of the tactics you mentioned as allowing a full attack and then movement away would actually work. And Dave was right - most of your suggestions require either standard actions or other party members (or familiars) to activate. These either wouldn't allow you to full attack and then cast or require other people's actions - certainly none of the suggested tactics are as clean or as broken as a Dervish Dance. Daren Getting too far off-topic now. At this point, if you can't see it, I guess that's it. -Matt
control freak 07-11-07, 12:08 PM	rolling 20s and DMs rolling 1s :D
awroe 07-11-07, 01:28 PM	rolling 20s and DMs rolling 1s :D You have access to something that lets you do that? *mine*
Maesto 07-11-07, 10:20 PM	Quite correct on the share spells note - can share anything as long as it's within 5 feet, or put a personal spell on the familiar. So no enlarge person on familiars. Thanks for pointing that out.
bitznarf 07-11-07, 11:14 PM	You could cast it on yourself, and get the enlarge person working on the familiar that way couldn't you?
Maesto 07-12-07, 01:16 AM	Bitznarf: Yes, but only if the familiar stays within 5 feet. Doesn't work so well when you want kitty to go "POUNCE!"
bitznarf 07-12-07, 01:29 AM	Well, you could put a saddle on it, lol.
Gwumph 07-12-07, 02:01 AM	BACK ON TOPIC....... My main Character is mounted and even i think "Stormtrooper" feat is broken. Now that won't stop me from using it:D But any feat that allows you at 10th level to use a full melee bonus to hit while at the same time adding 60pt damage is broken!!! That said I totally plan to use this feat on a regular basis!!
Maesto 07-12-07, 02:47 AM	Saddles do indeed work. Stormtrooper? Don't you mean shocktrooper?
ezreal2001 07-12-07, 07:22 AM	BACK ON TOPIC....... My main Character is mounted and even i think "Stormtrooper" feat is broken. Now that won't stop me from using it:D But any feat that allows you at 10th level to use a full melee bonus to hit while at the same time adding 60pt damage is broken!!! That said I totally plan to use this feat on a regular basis!! Stromtrooper? Not Shocktrooper? Assuming we're talking Shocktrooper's headless charge tactic I see where upto 20 pts comes from but where are you getting the other 40 pts.
ezreal2001 07-12-07, 07:40 AM	Must say I'm bemused at the constanation the Dervish causes. Let's face it, perhaps the Dervish pwns all other melee builds, but from about 9th level onwards, something that has to close to do damage is playing in the minors. As for the much vaunted move and full attack Forcecage anyone? Otherwise I'll continue to say that Codzilla is the most broken open access item simply because of the beadth their spell access. Nifty new spell on the Open List, and its on the cleric list? Sweet. My cleric has it. Does that happen with Wizards? Er well they have these spell books, so no. Perhaps someone could recould the tale of thegreat Canberra Arcance Spell book spreadsheet. What about Sorcs or Bards well maybe they do something retraining. Seriously the biggest hassles I have with my Cheeseweasle of Pelor are wading through the spell lists and remembering which spells will give the optimal mix for today's adventure.
KarmaInferno 07-12-07, 07:54 AM	Assuming we're talking Shocktrooper's headless charge tactic I know that's a typo, but it's a damn funny one. :D -karma
ezreal2001 07-12-07, 08:52 AM	I know that's a typo, but it's a damn funny one. :D -karma Yup.
Maesto 07-12-07, 10:08 AM	I think he's referring to the spirited charge 6x power attack... As for having to close to do damage? Well, with the exception of very few (stupid) spells (which some people have been able to pick up), spell damage is always pathetic compared to melee damage. Ranged weapon damage is pathetic compared to melee weapon damage. Arcane can make save or be screwed spells, but anything that's got a billion hitdice with ungodly high saves just has one thing to get through - hitpoints, and that's when you want your melee. With forcecage, it's got a 1500 gp cost for a reason, and it's also a 7th level spell. It's equatable to an "I win" card, but it doesn't always work (they're too big, have a teleportation ability, or a disintegrate ability), and is expensive. Besides which, it makes it difficult to loot anybody you squeeze into the cage =) In short, if I want somebody to do melee damage, it's probably best as a dervish. They win the attack trade by getting to do full attack damage every round, while only taking single attacks. Furthermore, their AC just keeps getting better and better, whereas barbarians tend to dump their AC in order to get their damage, and thus need putting back together again afterwards.
Gwumph 07-12-07, 10:44 AM	OOPS! yep a typo But everyone seem to know what I am talking about. If you are mounted attacker, you almost always have Spirited-Charge. So at 10th level most likely I will have a +20 to hit (no buffs) with a charge If i do power attack for +10 with shocktrooper-heedless charge, I will still have a +20 to hit, But if I do hit that would equal 60 points of Damage (minimum, if i do a deadly charge and/or riding boots that goes up to 80/100 points of Damage) I get that much Damage and still keep a full melee attack bonus.......... that's broken:D
bitznarf 07-12-07, 11:36 AM	While that combo can be devastating Gwumph, I don't think it is broken, overpowered perhaps, but not broken. Nor are any of the individual parts of the combo broken. Note that I use something close to dkay's definition of broken (ie. break an inherent rule or barrier in the game).
DarkKnight 07-12-07, 02:47 PM	Must say I'm bemused at the constanation the Dervish causes. Let's face it, perhaps the Dervish pwns all other melee builds, but from about 9th level onwards, something that has to close to do damage is playing in the minors. As for the much vaunted move and full attack Forcecage anyone? Otherwise I'll continue to say that Codzilla is the most broken open access item simply because of the beadth their spell access. Nifty new spell on the Open List, and its on the cleric list? Sweet. My cleric has it. Does that happen with Wizards? Er well they have these spell books, so no. Perhaps someone could recould the tale of thegreat Canberra Arcance Spell book spreadsheet. What about Sorcs or Bards well maybe they do something retraining. Seriously the biggest hassles I have with my Cheeseweasle of Pelor are wading through the spell lists and remembering which spells will give the optimal mix for today's adventure. I'm sorry but what does pwns mean and what is a Codzilla?
lunarfish 07-12-07, 04:30 PM	I'm sorry but what does pwns mean and what is a Codzilla? AFAIK, "pwns" is some form of internet slang and CoDzilla is Cleric-or-Druid-zilla. I'm about 55% sure that I'm right on either one, and someone else probably knows better. Ryan B.
Eric Anondson 07-12-07, 04:40 PM	AFAIK, "pwns" is some form of internet slang ...It is, generally thought to come from head-to-head games with chat systems built in. "pwn" is "own", but with a slip of the finger from "o" to "p". Type it fast while you are dodging bullets or grenades in a FPS and your finger might slip a letter. Happened so often, and folks found it hilarious that they just adopted it with misspellings. Other misspellings are finding their way into the vernacular, like "teh" in place of "the" when you want to hint at unseriousness. Such is life on teh interwebs. ;)
DarkKnight 07-12-07, 04:49 PM	*Picks up a cane and shakes it angrily* Dang it you young whippersnappers, type in proper English!!
Eric Anondson 07-12-07, 05:06 PM	Oh, but what better way to taunt a fallen foe than with misspelling, poor grammar, and no punctuation! :evillaugh
dkay807 07-12-07, 06:57 PM	Let's face it, perhaps the Dervish pwns all other melee builds, but from about 9th level onwards, something that has to close to do damage is playing in the minors I disagree whole-heartedly. With the amount of utility available to parties at high levels, "closing" is not difficult. Also, ranged attackers suffer many of the same challenges of doing damage as melee attackers. At higher levels, frequently enough, some creatures just can't be stopped by most spells. Often enough, without the raw melee damage output, the party doesn't stand a chance. And who's better at closing than a PC built for mobility? I played a Dervish with a ring of FOM, multiple ways to fly, a touch AC over 40 and saves all over 20. Casters couldn't touch him. As for the much vaunted move and full attack Forcecage anyone? There's always a spell that will stop any PC and Forcecage is something that can stop any sole melee PC that doesn't have some ability to get himself out. However, that's why we adventure in parties. No one plays a module by himself or herself. By the time PCs are encountering Forcecage, between benign Transposition, Dimension Door, Teleport, Cape of the Mountebank, Boots of Teleportation, Boots of Big Stepping, Disintegrate, and a plethora of other similar abilities, it's quite easy for a melee PC to get yanked out and then proceed to full attack whoever it was that cast the Forcecage (and full attack, what with being a Dervish and all).
Mattastrophic 07-12-07, 07:47 PM	However, that's why we adventure in parties. And by that same coin, one does not need to be a Dervish to both close and full-attack, or both full-attack and get away, or all three, which was my point earlier. You can even do it yourself if you do some shopping. After looking at it and doing some comparisons, Dervish is pretty sweet, but I wouldn't say it "pwns all other melee builds" or call it broken, either. As for dealing with them, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement usually does the trick against melee-types. Spike Stones would also punish them for using their Dervish Dance. I'd like to meet some badguy Dervishes sometime and see what happens. -Matt
dkay807 07-12-07, 09:00 PM	And by that same coin, one does not need to be a Dervish to both close and full-attack, or both full-attack and get away, or all three, which was my point earlier. You can even do it yourself if you do some shopping. After looking at it and doing some comparisons, Dervish is pretty sweet, but I wouldn't say it "pwns all other melee builds" or call it broken, either. As for dealing with them, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement usually does the trick against melee-types. Spike Stones would also punish them for using their Dervish Dance. I'd like to meet some badguy Dervishes sometime and see what happens. -Matt Any melee worth his salt carries potions of Lesser Restoration to handle Blasphemy and Rays of Enfeeblement, amongst other things. Any Dervish worth his salt should be flying part APL 10+. We can go on all day but I'll stick to my guns - Dervish is broken. I wouldn't dare state anything is "the best," but in my opinion, Dervish can't be beat. I've fought bad guy Dervishes at APL 18. The only reason we had any chance is because we started sundering every damn item they had. Fire Giant dervishes buffed by a 30th level caster to high hell - gotta love that final battle for Gorna. I actually think Ken Jenks was at my table, if I recall correctly.
solbergb 07-12-07, 09:50 PM	Heh. I've fought bad guy dervishes twice. Encounter 1, all 3 dervishes ended up in a solid fog after they did their first little dance on our frontliners. Two were dead before they could extricate themselves, the third chose to plane shift out before the party piled onto her. Encounter 2, I webbed the dervish before she got to move. We didn't find out she was a dervish until after the encounter was over. Dervishes and cavalry have a lot in common - restrict movement and neither does very well. Which is why dervish should be a prime target for freedom of movement in a party situation. (cavalry are also restricted by visibility and ground conditions, so FoM isn't as helpful...and has to be cast on both mount and rider or shared)
_metz_ 07-13-07, 03:39 AM	AFAIK, "pwns" is some form of internet slang and CoDzilla is Cleric-or-Druid-zilla. I'm about 55% sure that I'm right on either one, and someone else probably knows better. Ryan B. If you are going to speak in another language, kindly remember we use English on these boards. Try not to convey any important information in this way, as the odd bit of slang is fine, it gets hard (not in this case) to understand what people are often writing about. Such is the life of the Roleplayer, to have assumptions on their ability to communicate and how they socially interact dropped on them by others. I'm afraid I cannot communicate in this argot, and don't want to be able to. Not having a go at anyone, but as my signature states, I am decidedly 'pro' the correct use of language, even if I am not an expert, and by no means perfect.
copper_wyrmling 07-13-07, 09:04 AM	Any melee worth his salt carries potions of Lesser Restoration to handle Blasphemy and Rays of Enfeeblement, amongst other things. Any Dervish worth his salt should be flying part APL 10+. Just a couple of questions, Dave: when you say touch AC 40+ and all saves over 20, what level was that, and was the touch AC that high without sacrificing attack bonus? I don't think my dervish will have all saves that high by 15 (because I want A Thousand Cuts before retirement, so no multiclassing that costs BAB, and no PrCs other than dervish), and he could only crank his touch AC that high by using expertise / fighting defensively (might need improved expertise actually). Also, what methods would you use to fly? It needs to be under your own power (not flying carpet or flying mounts) I assume, so you can still dervish dance. Winged boots take the boots-of-speed slot. The only other flight item my L10 dervish has seen was a special suit of armor that is currently hideously overpriced (it's about 10% of its original price in the MIC update), and is very wimpy apart from the flight ability (as in, it's non-upgradeable +1 leather armor, or something like that). (Oh, and my 2c: I don't think I've ever seen situations where raw melee damage was needed at high APLs. Very nice to have, yes, but if the party has no melee it tends to have enough spellcasting power to compensate - that is, to incapacitate the monsters for long enough to kill them more slowly. My nightmare high-APL party is four melees and no spellcasters: in contrast, I'm entirely happy with four arcanes.)
solbergb 07-13-07, 09:53 AM	My monk sometimes gets over 20s in all saves, but only after the divine protection, recitation etc starts flying. The highest "passive" AC I've seen in Lg was mid 30s, with touch AC nearly that high. He could crank his AC into 50s. He wasn't built to do much damage though, although he did have some good tricks for having enough mobility to continually plant himself in the way of enemies. His saves were pretty good too, lots of mutting with balance in where the +2 for each new class landed.
dkay807 07-13-07, 09:55 AM	Just a couple of questions, Dave: when you say touch AC 40+ and all saves over 20, what level was that, and was the touch AC that high without sacrificing attack bonus? I don't think my dervish will have all saves that high by 15 (because I want A Thousand Cuts before retirement, so no multiclassing that costs BAB, and no PrCs other than dervish), and he could only crank his touch AC that high by using expertise / fighting defensively (might need improved expertise actually). Also, what methods would you use to fly? It needs to be under your own power (not flying carpet or flying mounts) I assume, so you can still dervish dance. Winged boots take the boots-of-speed slot. The only other flight item my L10 dervish has seen was a special suit of armor that is currently hideously overpriced (it's about 10% of its original price in the MIC update), and is very wimpy apart from the flight ability (as in, it's non-upgradeable +1 leather armor, or something like that). (Oh, and my 2c: I don't think I've ever seen situations where raw melee damage was needed at high APLs. Very nice to have, yes, but if the party has no melee it tends to have enough spellcasting power to compensate - that is, to incapacitate the monsters for long enough to kill them more slowly. My nightmare high-APL party is four melees and no spellcasters: in contrast, I'm entirely happy with four arcanes.) Nym was a Monk 2/Fighter 4/Dervish 10 with Celestial Armor (very nice for his +8 dex mod) that let him fly once per day. I had potions of Fly for other encounters if I needed to fly in them. Keep in mind the multiclass penalty was only an XP penalty back then and that I retrained into that build at 16th out of an even stronger Lasher build (that couldn't move and full attack sadly). Touch AC over 40: 10 base 8 Dex 1 Size 3 Dervish Dodge 4 Deflection 1 Insight 1 Haste 2 Exp Dodge +5 Expertise +7 Elaborate Parry Touch AC is 30 unbuffed and not defensive, 42 unbuffed and defensive with expertise. Most combats also had Recitations thrown around for the party. With my Celestial Armor buffed to a +5, my regular AC was always 10 higher than my touch AC, not that it mattered since I would dance away, as per my original point about Dervish. It was frequently at 54 when I played. Now that penalty on attack isn't nearly so bad when your attack bonus is: +15 Base +8 Dex +1 Size +1 Focus +1 Green Ioun Stone +1 Haste +2 Standard of Heroism +1 High ground +5 Dervish Dance +5 Greater Magic Weapon That's +40 unbuffed (apart from the standard GMW), +38 with TWF. I ALWAYS fought defensively and frequently used Expertise. One can afford to do that when one can't power attack. I used two wounding admantine scimitars, one of which was also Holy. I only sucked against elementals, which I could only deal about 70 damage per round to. However, picture the fun Thousand Cuts was vs. creatures susceptible to con damage. That's the only reason Evard went down. Saves: 10, 11, 11 Base +1 to all from Halfling-hood +5 to all from a Vest of Resistance +5 +2 to all from a Standard of Heroism +1 to all from a Luckstone +1 to all from a Pale Green Ioun Stone +3 Con, +8 Dex, +0 Wisdom. +23, +29, +21 Hope that answers questions.
Drezden 07-13-07, 01:11 PM	Needed might be a tad too strong, but I have to agree with Dave's central point: Melee Damage is the preferred, easiest and most reliable way to take down High APL opponents. This is especially true if you get to even-more-rare-now APL16. Spellcasters still play an important role - in buffing, in general party support spells (Mass Fly) or removing obstacles (Disentegrating Walls of Force), etc., but it is usually much easier to take down opponents by having your BDFs full attack them - especially when the BBGs get 300+ hps and great saves. I agree that 4 BDFs and no spellcasters could be problematic. But I have played at tables where it was 4 BDFs and 1 Spellcaster and just wrecked mods. It is a sight to see 4 well-built damage dealers going at full tilt. Bottom line is that Melee Damage Dealers have a very big role (in many cases central role) to play at high APLs. Daren [snip] (Oh, and my 2c: I don't think I've ever seen situations where raw melee damage was needed at high APLs. Very nice to have, yes, but if the party has no melee it tends to have enough spellcasting power to compensate - that is, to incapacitate the monsters for long enough to kill them more slowly. My nightmare high-APL party is four melees and no spellcasters: in contrast, I'm entirely happy with four arcanes.)
dkay807 07-13-07, 02:42 PM	Needed might be a tad too strong, but I have to agree with Dave's central point: Melee Damage is the preferred, easiest and most reliable way to take down High APL opponents. This is especially true if you get to even-more-rare-now APL16. Spellcasters still play an important role - in buffing, in general party support spells (Mass Fly) or removing obstacles (Disentegrating Walls of Force), etc., but it is usually much easier to take down opponents by having your BDFs full attack them - especially when the BBGs get 300+ hps and great saves. I agree that 4 BDFs and no spellcasters could be problematic. But I have played at tables where it was 4 BDFs and 1 Spellcaster and just wrecked mods. It is a sight to see 4 well-built damage dealers going at full tilt. Bottom line is that Melee Damage Dealers have a very big role (in many cases central role) to play at high APLs. Daren It surprises me and upsets me that to this day, you and I have still been unable to play at the same table, despite all the cons we've attended together, despite all of the slots we've played the same module in at the same APL. That is all.
Drezden 07-13-07, 03:09 PM	Ha, ha - I agree. Of course, the biggest reason for this is you normally have your "team" and I have mine - most of the time we end up competing/negotiating over the remaining high level players to fill out our tables. I remember you foiling my plan to get Detweiller at one interactive. We could have played together at the last Conn Con interactive - one of your buddies played with us - but I think you slept in. Unfortunately, while I saw that you are going to OGC, we are going to Ottercon same weekend. Maybe we can arrange something for Annonycon or something in the fall. BTW - it always is fun to hear all the crazy cheese coming from you and your table. I remember when Nym was a lasher: "That is 265 damage, 4 Con damage and make a DC28 Fort Save (multiple ones?) or be Stunned." lol Daren It surprises me and upsets me that to this day, you and I have still been unable to play at the same table, despite all the cons we've attended together, despite all of the slots we've played the same module in at the same APL. That is all.
dkay807 07-13-07, 03:36 PM	BTW - it always is fun to hear all the crazy cheese coming from you and your table. I remember when Nym was a lasher: "That is 265 damage, 4 Con damage and make a DC28 Fort Save (multiple ones?) or be Stunned." lol Only 265 and 4 con damage? I must have rolled a few natural 1's ;)
User 07-26-07, 03:51 AM	I think I need to agree with control_freak on this one. Shadowcraft Mages with Earth Spell and Metamagic School Focus can easily break the game. Doubly so with Arcane Disciple(Luck) tossed in: cast miracle up to 3 times a day out of 8th level slots anyone? However, this is a specific combination rather than one particular rules option. Individually I don't think any of these are broken. Miracle is an 9th level spell (in the luck domain also). How can someone cast it as an 8th level spell? With earth spell you can make it an 11th level spell using a 10th level slot. Fine. But since Heighten Spell actually has no costs, there is nothing to lower with Metamagic School Focus.
bitznarf 07-26-07, 10:03 AM	Thats debatable User. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655556
tlotig 07-27-07, 03:39 PM	Not most broken, but the binding winds + silence has seen alot of use
Rerednaw 07-27-07, 04:37 PM	Nym was a Monk 2/Fighter 4/Dervish 10 with Celestial Armor (very nice for his +8 dex mod)......Saves: 10, 11, 11 Base +1 to all from Halfling-hood +5 to all from a Vest of Resistance +5 +2 to all from a Standard of Heroism +1 to all from a Luckstone +1 to all from a Pale Green Ioun Stone +3 Con, +8 Dex, +0 Wisdom. +23, +29, +21 Hope that answers questions. Sorry this jumped out at me. I thought that Luckstone conferred a luck bonus....as did being a halfling. Still a low save mod of +20 is nothing to sneeze at. The other thought was, dang, nice to have 100,000 gold for those items!
Wraith235 07-27-07, 05:06 PM	Enlarged = +1 damage Bulls strength +2 damage Magic Fang +1 damage I have been in a game with a Similar character.... not RPGA Mind you this was a Druid / halfling outrider who had a Tiger mount .... and yes ... getting that much DPS is Entirely possible Pounce = 2 claws and I think Rake ... + Bite .... + Short spear on the charge (or if its a ranger a Small Lance) add in the 3 above spells .... the Tigers Damage goes up a Die all around .... +3 to hit and damage .... this thing is a Brute
control freak 07-27-07, 05:06 PM	clerics in general, anything that can cast in a full plate with a heavy/tower sheild while blasting divine fires and searing lights and peariodicaly healing you up and PrCs (like radiant servant/ comtemplative/divine orical) that allow them to get alot for giving up nothing at all