Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 02-27-07, 12:54 PM	Race:Human Alignment: STR-10 (2) DEX-15 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-8 (0) CHA-14 (6) Lv1(Bard)Extra Music, Lingering Song Lv2(Bard) Lv3(Bard)Melodic Casting Lv4(Bard)+1 DEX Lv5(Rogue) Lv6(Rogue)Warning Shout Lv7(Bard) Lv8(Bard)+1 CHA Lv9(Bard)Ironskin Chant Lv10(Bard) Lv11(Bard) Lv12(Lyric Thaumaturge)Clap of Thunder, +1 CHA Lv13(Lyric Thaumaturge)Captivating Melody Lv14(Lyric Thaumaturge) Lv15(Lyric Thaumaturge)Extra Music Having both Warning Shout and Ironskin Chant would give me something to spend more bardic music on. Also plan on having feather fall as a 1st level spell, for more ways of protecting the party. Just enough bard levels to get Inspire Greatness for further buffing. Lyric Thaumaturge to cap it off for a few more spell slots while getting more uses of bardic music...
Rerednaw 02-27-07, 01:51 PM	Race:Human Alignment: STR-10 (2) DEX-15 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-8 (0) CHA-14 (6) Lv1(Bard)Extra Music, Lingering Song ... My 2 cents. If you really want to take rogue levels, I'd probably start as one at level 1 to get the extra skill points. I do advise not multi-classing at all (except possibly for prestige classes). Bards are very strong as bard x/-. First level 1 spell I'd take as a bard: Inspirational Boost. Open, SpC. Basically your inspire songs work at +1. Starting with a +2 atk/dam/fear save bonus is very nice. Tally up how many near misses become hits and you'll find you are adding a considerable amount of party damage. I have not read up on the Lyric Thaumaturge so I cannot give advice there. My bard is going either straight bard or bard 10/Sublime Chord if I want to pump his spellcasting. Still haven't decided. Have fun!
UMiskatonic 02-27-07, 02:00 PM	One more rogue level would allow for arcane trickster. Likewise, a level of unseen seer would get you there also. Mage of the Arcane Order also does wonders for a spellcasting bard. I don't know what Lyric Thaumaturge does, unf. Extra music is a good first level feat. You may eventually want to train it out, you might not use 8-10 bardic music uses a day. Best of all, you can make that decision at any time.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-27-07, 02:07 PM	[/SIZE] My 2 cents. If you really want to take rogue levels, I'd probably start as one at level 1 to get the extra skill points. I do advise not multi-classing at all (except possibly for prestige classes). Bards are very strong as bard x/-. First level 1 spell I'd take as a bard: Inspirational Boost. Open, SpC. Basically your inspire songs work at +1. Starting with a +2 atk/dam/fear save bonus is very nice. Tally up how many near misses become hits and you'll find you are adding a considerable amount of party damage. I have not read up on the Lyric Thaumaturge so I cannot give advice there. My bard is going either straight bard or bard 10/Sublime Chord if I want to pump his spellcasting. Still haven't decided. Have fun! Well, first of all, you NEED evasion to take warning shout, which I do want. I think there are a great deal of mages that would appreciate +5 to their reflex save and evasion. Inspirational Boost shouldn't even need to be mentioned it's so obvious. If I put rogue first in the build, then the first level feats become meaningless as I can't apply them to bard stuff. As far as other potential prestige classes, Lyric Thaumaturge is the best as it grants more bardic music uses as well as advancing casting and giving extra spell slots and spells known. Gonna need a crapload of bardic music uses to make frequent use of warning shout (costs 2 uses), and Ironskin Chant (1 use per round), while still being able to inspire courage every combat and inspire greatness a few times.
Mattastrophic 02-27-07, 02:26 PM	Warning Shout really isn't that necessary; definitely not necessary enough to warrant dunking two levels and the feat slot and Extra Music to power it. Also, double-check the wording, because if it references the monk/rogue class feature Evasion, then it won't work if the target is wearing heavy armor. Also, if a bard wants to cast spells... there's no way around it, Sublime Chord is necessary. Doubly so since Righteous Wrath of the Faithful > Inspire Courage +3/+3. If Lyric Thaumaturge could build on Sublime Chord casting, it'd be a good choice, but it doesn't. So you end up gimping your bardic music progression to be a non-caster bard. Also, more specific to Jay's build, Lingering Song isn't necessary anymore, now that Melodic Casting is around, and neither is Extra Music, as at 2nd you're still only getting one Inspirational Boost a day, and by the time you have a decent amount of 1st-level slots you've got the songs/day to cover it. For what you're going for, a stand-in-the-back bard, you're probably better off just doing Bard/Sublime Chord. Maybe put Marshal1 in there. -Matt's primary is a Virtuoso.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-27-07, 02:51 PM	Warning Shout really isn't that necessary; definitely not necessary enough to warrant dunking two levels and the feat slot and Extra Music to power it. Also, double-check the wording, because if it references the monk/rogue class feature Evasion, then it won't work if the target is wearing heavy armor. Also, if a bard wants to cast spells... there's no way around it, Sublime Chord is necessary. Doubly so since Righteous Wrath of the Faithful > Inspire Courage +3/+3. If Lyric Thaumaturge could build on Sublime Chord casting, it'd be a good choice, but it doesn't. So you end up gimping your bardic music progression to be a non-caster bard. Also, more specific to Jay's build, Lingering Song isn't necessary anymore, now that Melodic Casting is around, and neither is Extra Music, as at 2nd you're still only getting one Inspirational Boost a day, and by the time you have a decent amount of 1st-level slots you've got the songs/day to cover it. For what you're going for, a stand-in-the-back bard, you're probably better off just doing Bard/Sublime Chord. Maybe put Marshal1 in there. -Matt's primary is a Virtuoso. Bards get so little that losing 2 levels to rogue is virtually inconsequential to them. 9 bard levels is all you really need to get you inspire greatness. As to the usefulness of warning shout, I'd say maybe 1 in 6 characters I've seen wears more than light armor, and the ones in heavy armor are usually the ones who can afford to take the damage. Lingering song is LESS useful than it used to be with melodic casting, so I might just throw in another extra music. I want to be able to give one person DR 5/- every round of combat every day, while still being able to inspire courage/greatness. Sublime Chord doesn't do what I want. It doesn't benefit this build at all. I don't see your point in mentioning Righteous Wrath of the Faithful...I don't see what's so great about sublime chord anyway, if you want high level wizard spells, play a wizard...The point of using Lyric THaumaturge is it gives more bardic music and advances bard casting, which is what I want for a few more utility spells. As far as spells known, probably go for something like this, in no particular order... 1)Critical Strike, Inspirational Boost, Grease, Feather Fall 2)Tactical Precision, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Silence 3)Haste, Daylight 4)Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Cacophonic Shield Basically try to have a counter to everything. Taking the clap of thunder reserve feat at 12th will let me do a little damage too if needed without spending spell slots, and can even apply sneak attack to it, and further enhance damage with critical strike and tactical precision. I know the 3rd level spells are a little thin, but that's because there's just so much that could go in there...
Mattastrophic 02-27-07, 02:57 PM	I don't see your point in mentioning Righteous Wrath of the Faithful...I don't see what's so great about sublime chord anyway, if you want high level wizard spells, play a wizard...The point of using Lyric THaumaturge is it gives more bardic music and advances bard casting, which is what I want for a few more utility spells. A Cleric9 can cast Righteous Wrath and give +3 to melee, +3 to melee damage, and an extra attack. A bard needs to drop Inspirational Boost, Inspire Courage, and Haste to keep up. Thus, a bard will need another trick at that level, or a Cleric can quickly overshadow a Bard. I also mention Sublime Chord because it's casting IS everything bardic casting can do, and more. Lyric Thaumaturge just tries for second place. -Matt
UMiskatonic 02-27-07, 03:04 PM	Yes, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is a nice spell. But I don't see where the overshadowing bit comes in. Is a fighter 'overshadowed' because the wizard can also do damage to enemies? Trading a 5th level cleric spell for a 3rd and a 1st level bard spell is a good deal. It allows the cleric to drop bless and righteous wrath, and take shield of faith and insect plague, or whatever else might be useful that day.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-27-07, 03:07 PM	A Cleric9 can cast Righteous Wrath and give +3 to melee, +3 to melee damage, and an extra attack. A bard needs to drop Inspirational Boost, Inspire Courage, and Haste to keep up. Thus, a bard will need another trick at that level, or a Cleric can quickly overshadow a Bard. I also mention Sublime Chord because it's casting IS everything bardic casting can do, and more. Lyric Thaumaturge just tries for second place. -Matt Sublime Chord might be an option here...though I really want the aditional lower level spells because that's where most of the utility stuff comes from...As far as clerics with righteous wrath, sure it beats inspirational boosted bard song+haste, but uses a 5th level slot, so it's not going to be AS common, plus clerics have their own horde of options to choose from. If I happened to be at a table with a buffing cleric too, I still have inspire greatness, as well as ironskin chant to make a real beast out of the party tank...
UMiskatonic 02-27-07, 03:08 PM	I'd drop daylight. That's a scroll, easily activated with UMD. Maybe your region is different, but my radiant servant hardly ever casts daylight, and that's his thing. Instead, I'd look at Invis sphere and sculpt sound. Two spells, and the ENTIRE party is in stealth mode. I'd also look at Joyful Noise? There's an SC bard spell that counters silence. That's a nice trick to have on your side. Even better in a confined space with a silence spell too. Maybe look at Sculpt Spell. Given the spells you have, it might work REALLY well.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-27-07, 03:24 PM	I'd drop daylight. That's a scroll, easily activated with UMD. Maybe your region is different, but my radiant servant hardly ever casts daylight, and that's his thing. Instead, I'd look at Invis sphere and sculpt sound. Two spells, and the ENTIRE party is in stealth mode. I'd also look at Joyful Noise? There's an SC bard spell that counters silence. That's a nice trick to have on your side. Even better in a confined space with a silence spell too. Maybe look at Sculpt Spell. Given the spells you have, it might work REALLY well. Yeah...daylight probably not as frequently helpful...invis sphere and sculpt sound could be very handy...Looked at Joyful Noise, only somatic components so you can cast it when already in silence, so that's handy...
frupton 02-28-07, 01:26 AM	Sublime Chord might be an option here...though I really want the aditional lower level spells because that's where most of the utility stuff comes from. I agree with you that lower level spells are tough picks for a Bard. And I like your choice of Featherfall. Sublime Chord will outshine Lyric Thaumaturge at the high levels. For example at level 13, Lyric Thaumaturge is just getting 5th bard level spells. Sublime Chord is getting 6th level bard spells at that point. Irresistible dance has a fairly high utility. :D
Mattastrophic 02-28-07, 11:03 AM	Irresistible dance has a fairly high utility. :D So does Heroes' Feast. -Matt
Potmos 02-28-07, 01:35 PM	A Cleric9 can cast Righteous Wrath and give +3 to melee, +3 to melee damage, and an extra attack. A bard needs to drop Inspirational Boost, Inspire Courage, and Haste to keep up. Thus, a bard will need another trick at that level, or a Cleric can quickly overshadow a Bard. I also mention Sublime Chord because it's casting IS everything bardic casting can do, and more. Lyric Thaumaturge just tries for second place. -Matt sure, Righteous Wrath is a 5th level cleric spell that gives +3 to hit/+3 dmg on melee attacks and one extra melee attack on a full attack action, but combine haste and inspirational boost and inspire courage from a 9th level bard and you end up with: +4 to hit/+3 dmg for melee and ranged attacks, an extra melee or ranged attack in a full attack action (archers love it!) up to 30' extra move, +1 dodge bonus to AC and +1 dodge bonus to reflex saves (both of which have saved the lives of some of my characters). Also, the cleric spell is a 30' burst centered on the cleric, whereas the haste spell is a close range spell, so the bard doesn't have to be in the middle of his allies when casting it. (many times my wizard has cast this spell and not included himself, instead getting the group of allies 40' away) all in all, I would prefer the cleric keep his 5th level slot for a greater command, spell resistance, true seeing, or other spell in the event that both a bard and a cleric are at the table.
Mommy was an Orc 02-28-07, 01:47 PM	Well, first of all, you NEED evasion to take warning shout, which I do want. I think there are a great deal of mages that would appreciate +5 to their reflex save and evasion. The problem is that Lyric Thaum doesn't have the great power of Sublime Chord - bypass the loss of caster levels. You're talking about building a caster bard(Lyric Thaum) who then sacrifices multiple caster levels. If you wouldn't do that with a Wizard, you shouldn't do it with a Bard. A Rogue 3/Bard 7/Sublime Chord 4/Unseen Seer 1 is a quite capable 'bard' who happens to find traps.
Nutation 02-28-07, 03:01 PM	Taking bard before rogue only costs 6 skill points if (as here) your 1st level feats require bardic music. As far as spells known, probably go for something like this, in no particular order... 1)Critical Strike, Inspirational Boost, Grease, Feather Fall 2)Tactical Precision, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Silence 3)Haste, Daylight 4)Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Cacophonic Shield One of your 2nd level spells should be Harmonize (RS), which turns bardic music uses into move actions. That lets you sing twice in a turn or sing and cast.
bitznarf 02-28-07, 05:34 PM	One of your 2nd level spells should be Harmonize (RS), which turns bardic music uses into move actions. That lets you sing twice in a turn or sing and cast. If I recall correctly harmonize lets you maintain a bardic effect that requires concentration as a move action, starting it is still a standard action. Greater Harmonize allows starting bardic music as a move action.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-28-07, 07:07 PM	If I recall correctly harmonize lets you maintain a bardic effect that requires concentration as a move action, starting it is still a standard action. Greater Harmonize allows starting bardic music as a move action. You've got it reversed. Regular harmonize allows starting as a move action, but concentrating is still standard action, while greater reduces concetration to move action too.
Mattastrophic 03-01-07, 02:44 PM	sure, Righteous Wrath is a 5th level cleric spell that gives +3 to hit/+3 dmg on melee attacks and one extra melee attack on a full attack action, but... Point being that a Cleric9's standard action can trump a Bard9's Swift + Standard action. Thus, a bard needs more than Inspire Courage, else the Cleric will trump the bard by virtue of being a cleric, i.e. healing + buffing. In your Inspirational Boost + Inspire Courage + Haste example, this bard uses two turns, whereas a cleric can cast Recitation on his second turn to yield a total of +5(or 6) to hit, +3 to damage, extra attack, +2(or 3) AC, +2(or 3) to all saves, compared to the bard's +4 to hit, +3 to damage, extra attack, +1 to AC, +1 Reflex, +30' move. So the bard's buff suite is at -1(or 2) to hit (melee), +2(or 1) to hit (ranged), +3 to ranged damage, extra ranged attack, -1(or 2) AC, -2(or 3) Fort/Will, -1(or 2) Reflex, +30' move. Sure, it's better for the archers, but they don't have Power Attack (and thus don't need that hit bonus), do they? Again, a bard needs more than Inspirational Boost + Inspire Courage + Haste to keep up, else the Cleric will outshine the bard with raw numbers, on top of being able to be the Cleric. With the loss of DMM(Quicken), the bard gains some ground, as the Cleric can't fire off both spells in same round. Inspire Greatness helps, as well as Tactical Precision. Using a CV Masterwork Mandolin also helps by closing the melee to-hit gap. Good Hope can help with saves. A trap I see when I see bard builds are builds that "do X so the cleric doesn't have to." My response is "So you're saying that having a cleric at the table would be a better choice than your bard? What can you do to contribute that a cleric can't?" So that's the challenge. Find a build that goes beyond second-rate Cleric. Sublime Chord is very good for this, as when the Cleric has Righteous Wrath up and running, you're about to cross the Sublime Chord finish line. Bard6/LyricThaumaturge3/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord2/Virtuoso3 could work, and I'll have to look into whether you can fit Unseen Seer levels in there instead of Virtuoso, but you'll have to decide from the beginning that you're not even going to try when it comes to Inspire Courage +3/Inspire Greatness buffing. My own Bard build is headed Bard8/Marshal1/EldritchKnight1/SublimeChord2/Spellsword1/EK2, to add to the pot. -Matt's main, however, is a badass Virtuoso.
Potmos 03-02-07, 04:33 PM	So the bard's buff suite is at -1(or 2) to hit (melee), +2(or 1) to hit (ranged), +3 to ranged damage, extra ranged attack, -1(or 2) AC, -2(or 3) Fort/Will, -1(or 2) Reflex, +30' move. Sure, it's better for the archers, but they don't have Power Attack (and thus don't need that hit bonus), do they? A trap I see when I see bard builds are builds that "do X so the cleric doesn't have to." My response is "So you're saying that having a cleric at the table would be a better choice than your bard? What can you do to contribute that a cleric can't?" Don't discount the +30' to base move. Here in Ket, we've seen combats start at 1000 ft. away against elite archers on a vast featureless plain. We've also had combats start in the pitch black of night against lawful good enemies who have surrounded the camp and are hundreds of feet away raining arrows and spells on the PCs. And my favourite was the elite lawful neutral cavalry on axiomatic horses, with ride-by attack and spirited charge attacking the PCs who are caught in a valley. Extra movement (especially for the horses of the PCs) was the difference between victory and loss there. In all of those cases, the extra attack for the PC archers was also a huge benefit. As for "what can the bard contribute the cleric can't?": (note: some clerics will be able to do some of this stuff, but it requires a lot more focus than any of the clerics I've seen) -make the DC40 diplomacy check in the anti-magic zone -countersong -at 12th level, break enchantment multiple times without wasting spell slots -fascinate and suggestion (make investigative mods much easier) -use magic device to get around a variety of things. my favourite again: UMD to channel negative energy to activate the symbol of Tharizdun that allowed the party to enter the entirely underwater temple without suffering the various bad effects that went with the symbol -use your load of skill points to put ranks in various knowledge skills, gather information, bluff, UMD, diplomacy, tumble, and spellcraft (and others) and be able to actually use the spellcraft info. Far too many times I've adventured with clerics with no ranks in spellcraft because they put all their points into concentration and know(religion) and heal. Sure, wizards can do this, but wizards are relatively rare in our region (especially higher level wizards) -not have the bonus to attack and damage from inspire courage go away when the enemy throws a chained dispel magic, unlike the bonuses from recitation and righteous wrath -be able to walk the streets without religious persecution in the various areas where being a cleric of such-and-such a god is outlawed -heal the cleric when the cleric falls unconscious from the 39d6 damage from the three enemies who have a 13d6 ranged touch attack. (physician, heal thyself indeed) -make the DC20+one per 10' listen check to know where to drop the glitterdust to make the improved invisible enemy wizard visible (especially after he has hit the party with the second empowered cone of cold. darn those metamagic rods) -be there to pick up the slack when the cleric announces "oh, didn't I tell you? I don't channel positive energy" or when the druid says "no, I don't memorize healing spells, I just cast buff spells on my animal companion" -inspire competence. I think my rogue must have missed a disable device roll by 1 or 2 at least a dozen times now, and each time I thought to myself "If only we had a bard" -bardic lore. not always necessary, but sometimes the knowledge you end up with makes the game a lot more interesting. -do the haste and the buffs so that when you are fighting the 6th fight of the module (2-round mod, all of which takes place in the same in-game day) which turns out to be APL +4 (and then some) the cleric and the sorcerer still have spell slots left open of course, there are as many ways that having a cleric is better than a bard for some circumstances. It's why both fit nicely in a party. So the answer to "would you rather have a cleric or a bard" usually is replied with "well, I'd like to have both. in the event we can't, then it depends on the mod". for the longest time, the group I always played with consisted of: a paladin, a sorcerer, a fighter and a bard. We did fine in most mods, found some harder because we were missing a cleric, and found some easier because we had the bard.