My attempt at a Gish... [Archive] - Wizards Community

My attempt at a Gish... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jay_Ibero_911
03-11-07, 04:14 PM Race:Dwarf
Alignment:

STR-14 (6)
DEX-14 (6)
CON-14 (6)+2
INT-15 (8)
WIS-10 (2)
CHA-8 (0)-2

Lv1(Fighter)Retributive Spell, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe)
Lv2(Wizard)
Lv3(Wizard)Smiting Spell
Lv4(Wizard)+1 INT
Lv5(Wizard)
Lv6(Wizard)Craft Wondrous Item, Metamagic School Focus (necromancy)
Lv7(Spellsword)
Lv8(Eldritch Knight)Power Attack, +1 INT
Lv9(Eldritch Knight)Arcane Strike
Lv10(Eldritch Knight)
Lv11(Eldritch Knight)
Lv12(Eldritch Knight)Blade of Force, +1 INT
Lv13(Eldritch Knight)
Lv14(Eldritch Knight)
Lv15(Eldritch Knight)Extraordinary Spell Aim

Necromancer specialist, using Retributive Vampiric Touch, and Smiting Vampiric Touch, though Smiting Shocking Grasp works for lower level slots. Arcane Strike and Blade of Force make attack and damage even better. And ultimately using an Extraordinary Spell Aimed Anti-Magic field to stay buffed while becoming immune to outside bad stuff. Thoughts? Comments?
Timlagor
03-11-07, 05:47 PM Attributes look ok.
The levels look pretty standard.

If the Anti-Magic doesn't affect you then it also doesn't stop someone outside the zone casting at you (expect table variation).

I don't know Retributive Spell or Blade of Force but Smiting Spell looks pretty weak to me: the time window is just too small.

You badly need Empower and Quicken.
You probably want Power Attack earlier.. is that the earliest you can get Arcane Strike (no Feat should be holding that one up and I thought you could get it at 6th)
Not sure why you picked Necromancy; vampiric touch isn't that good.

Did you consider CA&A?

EDIT: Weapon Focus has no business in this build unless it's a requirement for something really amazing that I don't know about (pretty sure it's not needed for the PrCs)
Jay_Ibero_911
03-11-07, 07:07 PM Attributes look ok.
The levels look pretty standard.

If the Anti-Magic doesn't affect you then it also doesn't stop someone outside the zone casting at you (expect table variation).

I don't know Retributive Spell or Blade of Force but Smiting Spell looks pretty weak to me: the time window is just too small.

You badly need Empower and Quicken.
You probably want Power Attack earlier.. is that the earliest you can get Arcane Strike (no Feat should be holding that one up and I thought you could get it at 6th)
Not sure why you picked Necromancy; vampiric touch isn't that good.

Did you consider CA&A?

EDIT: Weapon Focus has no business in this build unless it's a requirement for something really amazing that I don't know about (pretty sure it's not needed for the PrCs)

With the anti-magic field not effecting me, they still have to target me with a spell capable of piercing the field to get TO me in the middle, like the orb spells for instance, being instantaneous conjurations, could pass through the field and still effect me. Anything else wouldn't be able to pass through the field. Weapon focus is only there for lack of any other worthwhile low level feat...power attack can wait since it's not till later that you have enough other bonuses to make power attack worthwhile. I do agree about smiting spell...the window is rather small, it's more or less a place holder until a spell storing weapon is aquired. Blade of Force is basically ghost touch and extra damage on one attack per round as long as I keep a 3rd level or higher force spell prepped...Arcane Strike can also wait a little bit to get a few more spells to burn...And Retributive spell is nice for the free counter attack...I figure Vampiric Touch makes a good candidate for Retribution and Smiting to make up for slightly lower HP. It is a hard choice for quicken at higher levels...quickened true strike is so very nice. Empower is not quite so high priority, as most of the spells worth empowering are levels 1-3, and therefore can be handled with metamagic rods...while moderatedly rare, I've still encounterd a few of them between my PC's, so they are out there. CMA&A would also be a nice option...but hard to fit in. Basically, typical combat strategy would be to cast a smiting spell first round and move in, Hopefully having had time for some buffs beforehand like mirror image, and longer lasting False Life. Difficulty I see with a gish is balancing buffs while still keeping enough ammo for arcane strike...
Timlagor
03-11-07, 10:31 PM Ok Definitely drop Weapon Focus
Take Power Attack or Empower there -this could be a retrain I suppose but you want something better in the PA slot and 9000gp isn't that easy to come by. You can probably get away with Rods if you get them though since most of your actual spellcasting will be out of combat (no Channel Spell).
Arcane Strike really can't wait for three levels: would you rather AS a 1st level spell every round or have Weapon Focus? (and that's assuming you only have 1st level spells to burn which won't be the cast most of the time even at 6th level -you can use PoPs to be sure you do at least have 1st level spells)

I've found Retributive Spell now (CM) and it's certainly worth having.
Blade of force has a nice effect but I'm not convinced it's really worth it.

I'd allow any spell that targets a creature to target you. I don't see targetted spells as travelling through the intervening space: you can't cast into the area but I see nothing forbidding you from casting across or past it.

I also recommend you go with Diviner banning Enchantment (..but you probably don't want Metamagic Focus Divination). At least you can retrain these if you find it doesn't work well. What do you propose to ban?
Jay_Ibero_911
03-11-07, 10:51 PM Ok Definitely drop Weapon Focus
Take Power Attack or Empower there -this could be a retrain I suppose but you want something better in the PA slot and 9000gp isn't that easy to come by. You can probably get away with Rods if you get them though since most of your actual spellcasting will be out of combat (no Channel Spell).
Arcane Strike really can't wait for three levels: would you rather AS a 1st level spell every round or have Weapon Focus? (and that's assuming you only have 1st level spells to burn which won't be the cast most of the time even at 6th level -you can use PoPs to be sure you do at least have 1st level spells)

I've found Retributive Spell now (CM) and it's certainly worth having.
Blade of force has a nice effect but I'm not convinced it's really worth it.

I'd allow any spell that targets a creature to target you. I don't see targetted spells as travelling through the intervening space: you can't cast into the area but I see nothing forbidding you from casting across or past it.

I also recommend you go with Diviner banning Enchantment (..but you probably don't want Metamagic Focus Divination). At least you can retrain these if you find it doesn't work well. What do you propose to ban?

Here's an alternative....

Race:Dwarf
Alignment:

STR-14 (6)
DEX-14 (6)
CON-14 (6)+2
INT-15 (8)
WIS-10 (2)
CHA-8 (0)-2

Lv1(Fighter)Retributive Spell, Improved Weapon Familiarity
Lv2(Wizard)
Lv3(Wizard)Power Attack (Retrain to Practiced Spellcaster at 7th)
Lv4(Wizard)+1 INT
Lv5(Wizard)
Lv6(Wizard)Craft Wondrous Item, Metamagic School Focus(Necromancy or Evocation)
Lv7(Eldritch Knight)Power Attack
Lv8(Spellsword)+1 INT
Lv9(Spellsword)Arcane Strike, Empower Spell
Lv10(Spellsword)
Lv11(Spellsword)
Lv12(Eldritch Knight)Blade of Force, +1 INT
Lv13(Eldritch Knight)
Lv14(Eldritch Knight)
Lv15(Eldritch Knight)Extraordinary Spell Aim

[Edit] Moved Arcane Strike back to where I actually qualify for it...Can't drop power attack at level 1 for quicken because one of the feats has to be a fighter bonus feat.
Maybe take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dwarven Warpike) at level 1, Power attack at level 3, then retrain power attack to practiced spellcast at 11th and take power attack as the eldritch knight feat. Necromancy or Evocation specialist, still banning enchantment and conjuration. Enchantment is obvious, conjuration because it's doesn't directly synergize with the build, while every other school has several valuable buffs. That and because necromancy or evocation are the best options for this build for metamagic school focus.
Timlagor
03-12-07, 02:33 AM Please add a space before Dwarf.. that grin doesn't suit him :P

The first 6 levels look better to me.
I never know whether Spell Channeling is worth 2 spell levels but on the whole I think it probably is.
Have you swapped to Diviner or just decided to go without Metamagic School Focus? ..it is a powerful Feat.

I think on the whole I'd do with out CA&A but I don't really know how good it is... might be best to take it and retrain it away taking only the benefit fo extra access.
You could take Power Attack as your bonus Fighter Feat and retrain the original to Quicken.
Sudden Maximise should be near the top of your list of Ajar Feats you want to find.
If you do try out Blade of Force I'd be interested to hear how well it plays: I suspect that it isn't worth saving a high level spell for the damage but the ghost touch effect could be a life-saver.

You will probably get table variation on the Anti-Magic thing btw. Just so long as you know that there are people out there who will run it the way I would.

All the stuff I'm dubious about is retrainable so you do have rom to experiment. Smiting Spell is one that I'd be tempted to try out and see how often it's usable. I suppose you could just watch out for situations you would have used it but that's not quite the same.
wooti
03-12-07, 09:40 AM Sorry you don't qualify for Arcane strike. Yes you can qualify for it by 6th but not with wizard you need 3rd level spells and BAB of 4, there are a few tricks that you can use to get it before 9th (like retraining) but I perfer to wait until 9th, I dislike planned retrains (ther should be for correcting errors in characters).

Otherwise the build look solid, I wouldn't bother with craft arms and armour I would change that for the polymorph feat that gives you temp hit point (until it gets banned).

I also wouldn't bother with empower, I have a 11lv gish the only spell I tend to use my rod on is false life I think You'll find it rarely useful.

If you are going 4 spell sword you might as well go to 5.
evilaustintom
03-12-07, 01:53 PM On the 'warping the antimagic field' tactic...I did that with a straight wizard of mine for quite a long time (w/archmage levels), standing behind the BDF in our group. It is a valid tactic. The problem you may run into is that antimagic field is an emanation - emanating from you. Many DMs won't let you radiate an effect if you are not effected from the spell you're emanating. It seems to cancel itself out (mechanically, it can be done, but realistically, DMs probably won't let it fly).

On the Blade of Force...I wouldn't take that and Quicken Spell both, and certainly if you end up getting a ghost touch weapon the Blade of Force is less useful. You can't use the feat and cast a quickened spell in the same round (they're both swift actions). Now, there's an argument that you won't be spending that much time casting quickened spells (you only have so many slots, after all), so taking both feats might be worth it. It's just something to keep in mind. You might just opt for one or another - perhaps retraining one into another if it doesn't suit you.

Tom Thowe
Mattastrophic
03-12-07, 02:06 PM Couple tidbits:

-To make the levels work, you'll have to go Ftr1, then Wiz5, then EK1, then Spellsword1, then more EK.

-You qualify for Arcane Strike at 7th (EK1) in the above example.

-Matt
Jay_Ibero_911
03-12-07, 02:18 PM Couple tidbits:

-To make the levels work, you'll have to go Ftr1, then Wiz5, then EK1, then Spellsword1, then more EK.

-You qualify for Arcane Strike at 7th (EK1) in the above example.

-Matt

You can qualify for it at 7th, but you still can't take Arcane Strike until 9th because it's not a fighter bonus feat. But you are right about the PrC order...I keep getting the pre-reqs swapped in my head...
Alpha_Nerd
03-12-07, 06:46 PM Lots of people like picking up Wizard 6 after Spellsword 1. It lets you grab 4th level spells at 8th instead of 9th, and wizard 6 is a solid level. +1 BAB, +1 to all saves. You lose 1 HP in the long run, but I recommend it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 03-11-07, 04:14 PM	Race:Dwarf Alignment: STR-14 (6) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6)+2 INT-15 (8) WIS-10 (2) CHA-8 (0)-2 Lv1(Fighter)Retributive Spell, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe) Lv2(Wizard) Lv3(Wizard)Smiting Spell Lv4(Wizard)+1 INT Lv5(Wizard) Lv6(Wizard)Craft Wondrous Item, Metamagic School Focus (necromancy) Lv7(Spellsword) Lv8(Eldritch Knight)Power Attack, +1 INT Lv9(Eldritch Knight)Arcane Strike Lv10(Eldritch Knight) Lv11(Eldritch Knight) Lv12(Eldritch Knight)Blade of Force, +1 INT Lv13(Eldritch Knight) Lv14(Eldritch Knight) Lv15(Eldritch Knight)Extraordinary Spell Aim Necromancer specialist, using Retributive Vampiric Touch, and Smiting Vampiric Touch, though Smiting Shocking Grasp works for lower level slots. Arcane Strike and Blade of Force make attack and damage even better. And ultimately using an Extraordinary Spell Aimed Anti-Magic field to stay buffed while becoming immune to outside bad stuff. Thoughts? Comments?
Timlagor 03-11-07, 05:47 PM	Attributes look ok. The levels look pretty standard. If the Anti-Magic doesn't affect you then it also doesn't stop someone outside the zone casting at you (expect table variation). I don't know Retributive Spell or Blade of Force but Smiting Spell looks pretty weak to me: the time window is just too small. You badly need Empower and Quicken. You probably want Power Attack earlier.. is that the earliest you can get Arcane Strike (no Feat should be holding that one up and I thought you could get it at 6th) Not sure why you picked Necromancy; vampiric touch isn't that good. Did you consider CA&A? EDIT: Weapon Focus has no business in this build unless it's a requirement for something really amazing that I don't know about (pretty sure it's not needed for the PrCs)
Jay_Ibero_911 03-11-07, 07:07 PM	Attributes look ok. The levels look pretty standard. If the Anti-Magic doesn't affect you then it also doesn't stop someone outside the zone casting at you (expect table variation). I don't know Retributive Spell or Blade of Force but Smiting Spell looks pretty weak to me: the time window is just too small. You badly need Empower and Quicken. You probably want Power Attack earlier.. is that the earliest you can get Arcane Strike (no Feat should be holding that one up and I thought you could get it at 6th) Not sure why you picked Necromancy; vampiric touch isn't that good. Did you consider CA&A? EDIT: Weapon Focus has no business in this build unless it's a requirement for something really amazing that I don't know about (pretty sure it's not needed for the PrCs) With the anti-magic field not effecting me, they still have to target me with a spell capable of piercing the field to get TO me in the middle, like the orb spells for instance, being instantaneous conjurations, could pass through the field and still effect me. Anything else wouldn't be able to pass through the field. Weapon focus is only there for lack of any other worthwhile low level feat...power attack can wait since it's not till later that you have enough other bonuses to make power attack worthwhile. I do agree about smiting spell...the window is rather small, it's more or less a place holder until a spell storing weapon is aquired. Blade of Force is basically ghost touch and extra damage on one attack per round as long as I keep a 3rd level or higher force spell prepped...Arcane Strike can also wait a little bit to get a few more spells to burn...And Retributive spell is nice for the free counter attack...I figure Vampiric Touch makes a good candidate for Retribution and Smiting to make up for slightly lower HP. It is a hard choice for quicken at higher levels...quickened true strike is so very nice. Empower is not quite so high priority, as most of the spells worth empowering are levels 1-3, and therefore can be handled with metamagic rods...while moderatedly rare, I've still encounterd a few of them between my PC's, so they are out there. CMA&A would also be a nice option...but hard to fit in. Basically, typical combat strategy would be to cast a smiting spell first round and move in, Hopefully having had time for some buffs beforehand like mirror image, and longer lasting False Life. Difficulty I see with a gish is balancing buffs while still keeping enough ammo for arcane strike...
Timlagor 03-11-07, 10:31 PM	Ok Definitely drop Weapon Focus Take Power Attack or Empower there -this could be a retrain I suppose but you want something better in the PA slot and 9000gp isn't that easy to come by. You can probably get away with Rods if you get them though since most of your actual spellcasting will be out of combat (no Channel Spell). Arcane Strike really can't wait for three levels: would you rather AS a 1st level spell every round or have Weapon Focus? (and that's assuming you only have 1st level spells to burn which won't be the cast most of the time even at 6th level -you can use PoPs to be sure you do at least have 1st level spells) I've found Retributive Spell now (CM) and it's certainly worth having. Blade of force has a nice effect but I'm not convinced it's really worth it. I'd allow any spell that targets a creature to target you. I don't see targetted spells as travelling through the intervening space: you can't cast into the area but I see nothing forbidding you from casting across or past it. I also recommend you go with Diviner banning Enchantment (..but you probably don't want Metamagic Focus Divination). At least you can retrain these if you find it doesn't work well. What do you propose to ban?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-11-07, 10:51 PM	Ok Definitely drop Weapon Focus Take Power Attack or Empower there -this could be a retrain I suppose but you want something better in the PA slot and 9000gp isn't that easy to come by. You can probably get away with Rods if you get them though since most of your actual spellcasting will be out of combat (no Channel Spell). Arcane Strike really can't wait for three levels: would you rather AS a 1st level spell every round or have Weapon Focus? (and that's assuming you only have 1st level spells to burn which won't be the cast most of the time even at 6th level -you can use PoPs to be sure you do at least have 1st level spells) I've found Retributive Spell now (CM) and it's certainly worth having. Blade of force has a nice effect but I'm not convinced it's really worth it. I'd allow any spell that targets a creature to target you. I don't see targetted spells as travelling through the intervening space: you can't cast into the area but I see nothing forbidding you from casting across or past it. I also recommend you go with Diviner banning Enchantment (..but you probably don't want Metamagic Focus Divination). At least you can retrain these if you find it doesn't work well. What do you propose to ban? Here's an alternative.... Race:Dwarf Alignment: STR-14 (6) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6)+2 INT-15 (8) WIS-10 (2) CHA-8 (0)-2 Lv1(Fighter)Retributive Spell, Improved Weapon Familiarity Lv2(Wizard) Lv3(Wizard)Power Attack (Retrain to Practiced Spellcaster at 7th) Lv4(Wizard)+1 INT Lv5(Wizard) Lv6(Wizard)Craft Wondrous Item, Metamagic School Focus(Necromancy or Evocation) Lv7(Eldritch Knight)Power Attack Lv8(Spellsword)+1 INT Lv9(Spellsword)Arcane Strike, Empower Spell Lv10(Spellsword) Lv11(Spellsword) Lv12(Eldritch Knight)Blade of Force, +1 INT Lv13(Eldritch Knight) Lv14(Eldritch Knight) Lv15(Eldritch Knight)Extraordinary Spell Aim [Edit] Moved Arcane Strike back to where I actually qualify for it...Can't drop power attack at level 1 for quicken because one of the feats has to be a fighter bonus feat. Maybe take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dwarven Warpike) at level 1, Power attack at level 3, then retrain power attack to practiced spellcast at 11th and take power attack as the eldritch knight feat. Necromancy or Evocation specialist, still banning enchantment and conjuration. Enchantment is obvious, conjuration because it's doesn't directly synergize with the build, while every other school has several valuable buffs. That and because necromancy or evocation are the best options for this build for metamagic school focus.
Timlagor 03-12-07, 02:33 AM	Please add a space before Dwarf.. that grin doesn't suit him :P The first 6 levels look better to me. I never know whether Spell Channeling is worth 2 spell levels but on the whole I think it probably is. Have you swapped to Diviner or just decided to go without Metamagic School Focus? ..it is a powerful Feat. I think on the whole I'd do with out CA&A but I don't really know how good it is... might be best to take it and retrain it away taking only the benefit fo extra access. You could take Power Attack as your bonus Fighter Feat and retrain the original to Quicken. Sudden Maximise should be near the top of your list of Ajar Feats you want to find. If you do try out Blade of Force I'd be interested to hear how well it plays: I suspect that it isn't worth saving a high level spell for the damage but the ghost touch effect could be a life-saver. You will probably get table variation on the Anti-Magic thing btw. Just so long as you know that there are people out there who will run it the way I would. All the stuff I'm dubious about is retrainable so you do have rom to experiment. Smiting Spell is one that I'd be tempted to try out and see how often it's usable. I suppose you could just watch out for situations you would have used it but that's not quite the same.
wooti 03-12-07, 09:40 AM	Sorry you don't qualify for Arcane strike. Yes you can qualify for it by 6th but not with wizard you need 3rd level spells and BAB of 4, there are a few tricks that you can use to get it before 9th (like retraining) but I perfer to wait until 9th, I dislike planned retrains (ther should be for correcting errors in characters). Otherwise the build look solid, I wouldn't bother with craft arms and armour I would change that for the polymorph feat that gives you temp hit point (until it gets banned). I also wouldn't bother with empower, I have a 11lv gish the only spell I tend to use my rod on is false life I think You'll find it rarely useful. If you are going 4 spell sword you might as well go to 5.
evilaustintom 03-12-07, 01:53 PM	On the 'warping the antimagic field' tactic...I did that with a straight wizard of mine for quite a long time (w/archmage levels), standing behind the BDF in our group. It is a valid tactic. The problem you may run into is that antimagic field is an emanation - emanating from you. Many DMs won't let you radiate an effect if you are not effected from the spell you're emanating. It seems to cancel itself out (mechanically, it can be done, but realistically, DMs probably won't let it fly). On the Blade of Force...I wouldn't take that and Quicken Spell both, and certainly if you end up getting a ghost touch weapon the Blade of Force is less useful. You can't use the feat and cast a quickened spell in the same round (they're both swift actions). Now, there's an argument that you won't be spending that much time casting quickened spells (you only have so many slots, after all), so taking both feats might be worth it. It's just something to keep in mind. You might just opt for one or another - perhaps retraining one into another if it doesn't suit you. Tom Thowe
Mattastrophic 03-12-07, 02:06 PM	Couple tidbits: -To make the levels work, you'll have to go Ftr1, then Wiz5, then EK1, then Spellsword1, then more EK. -You qualify for Arcane Strike at 7th (EK1) in the above example. -Matt
Jay_Ibero_911 03-12-07, 02:18 PM	Couple tidbits: -To make the levels work, you'll have to go Ftr1, then Wiz5, then EK1, then Spellsword1, then more EK. -You qualify for Arcane Strike at 7th (EK1) in the above example. -Matt You can qualify for it at 7th, but you still can't take Arcane Strike until 9th because it's not a fighter bonus feat. But you are right about the PrC order...I keep getting the pre-reqs swapped in my head...
Alpha_Nerd 03-12-07, 06:46 PM	Lots of people like picking up Wizard 6 after Spellsword 1. It lets you grab 4th level spells at 8th instead of 9th, and wizard 6 is a solid level. +1 BAB, +1 to all saves. You lose 1 HP in the long run, but I recommend it.