My First BDF [Archive] - Wizards Community

My First BDF [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fleetfang
08-02-07, 03:24 PM Hey there. Looking for some minor advice on this build for Greyhawk Ruins.
I wanted to make a really old-school Big. Dumb. Fighter. The concept isn't terribly deep, but for starters, it's Incredible Hulk meets Juggernaut, with a curiosity about strange civilized folks living in the big City...

Tursk, who is called "Tursk"
Half-orc
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 15 Int 6 Wis 12 Cha 6

1. Bbn 1... 1: Extra rage
2. Ftr 1... F: Power Attack
3. Ftr 2... 3: Improved Bull Rush, F: (Dungeon crasher alt class feature)
4. Ftr 3
5. Ftr 4... [retrain ImpBullRush into Delay Potion], F: Improved Bull Rush
6. Ftr 5... 6: Shock Trooper
7. Ftr 6... F: (Dungeon crasher improves)
8. Ftr 7
9. Ftr 8... 9: Combat Brute, F: Improved Sunder
10. maybe return to Barbarian or go into insane-crazy Bear Warrior cheese...

Delay Potion is so that he can drink an Enlarge potion every morning and not have to eat up the Wizard's actions by asking for an Enlarge. When he gets angry, he rages, activates the delayed potion, and "hulks out." Alternatively, he could delay CLW potions to stabilize himself if he drops in combat before his rage ends.
I think it might be a neat trick up his sleeve, which he should easily be affording by 5th level.

How does he look? I haven't played a straight-up fighter-type before, so any advice on the build is welcome.

Also, I wonder if anyone has a strong opinion on the greataxe v. greatsword debate? Which should I go with for the most iconic BDF at a table?

Thanks for the input!
--Ff
bitznarf
08-02-07, 03:26 PM 8 Fighter levels without Weapon Focus/Weapon Spec/Melee Weapon Mastery? For shame!
Fleetfang
08-02-07, 03:58 PM Ah, Bitz... ever the proponent of MWM and the two feats you have to take to get into it...

I glanced at WeapFocus, WeapSpec, and MWM, but truth be told, when I looked at other stuff like Improved Bull Rush combined with the Dungeon Crasher alt feature and Shock Trooper, I just thought: "meh."

Plus 1 to hit and damage? Plus 2 damage? another plus whatever to damage (albeit with all weapons of a single type)?

Why is this so essential to making a kick-butt Fighter?
bitznarf
08-02-07, 04:05 PM Effectively the 3 feats combined give you +10 damage per swing (with a 2 handed weapon and power attack). Thats not bad at all in my opinion, and is one of the better reasons for taking fighter 4. They tend to be paired with prestige classes that require Weapon Focus to enter though. They aren't the best feats out there, but they are solid. If you haven't seen the thread, I recommend you take a look over here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=772733).
TWG_Prometheus
08-02-07, 04:21 PM A delayed potion will only last in your system for one hour if I recall correctly. If I'm wrong, that's cool, but if not it's a consideration.

As for Melee Weapon Mastery, consider this:

Fighter A with MWM and associated feats at 9th level:
+20/+15 (1d12+15)

Fighter B without MWW and associated feats at 9th level:
+17/+12 (1d12+11)

Both Fighters are assumed to have 24 Strength and +1 Greataxes. The difference in attack is more important than the difference in damage, but both are relevant. Fighter B will look like he's swinging around a weapon with which he isn't even proficient in comparison. He'll do 4 less damage on every hit and 12 less on a critical hit. He won't confirm critical hits as often.

If they meet a tough-to-hit opponent (AC 33) Fighter A will hit the bad guy 40% of the time, while Fighter B will only hit 25% of the time. That's a 60% increase in the number of hits = a 60% increase in the expected amount of damage done on the first attack alone. Fighter A will hit on their iterative 15% of the time, and Fighter B will have to roll a natural 20 to hit on their iterative. Fighter A will have a decent chance to confirm crits, while Fighter B will go several modules in a row without seeing a critical hit. These numbers are the same if the AC of the opponent is 24 and both Fighters choose to do a full Power Attack. If Fighter B chooses to Power Attack 3 less on any opponent to make up the difference, they're giving up another 6 damage to Fighter A, making the gap 10 per hit.

They're not only good, they're clearly superior. Unless you want to be a rebel just to do it, drop either Improved Sunder/Combat Brute or Improved Bullrush/Shock Trooper as well as Delay Potion and get Melee Weapon Mastery.

I'd take Iron Will way before I ever gave Delay Potion a second glance anyway.
jstorrie
08-02-07, 04:54 PM Bear Warrior cheese isn't really very good. You could do very well with Barb1/Fighter14.

Delay Potion will last a few hours on this character, so it is a good tactic, but will not be cost effective until APL 8 or so, so I wouldn't prioritize it early. Combat Brute is less important than MWM and I'd delay it until the later levels of your build. I think you'll want to stay Fighter 14 so that you have enough feats to pick up all of the MWM chain and Reckless Rage; that's a huge amount of +hit and +damage on every swing, and you won't always be in a position to charge or crash...
Fleetfang
08-02-07, 05:33 PM Yeah, Delayed Potions last for Con mod number of hours.

I suppose Combat Brute was pretty much for flavor. I could lose Imp Sunder and C.B. and take Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec... then maybe eventually pick up MWM late. Reckless rage and Mad Foam Rager.
But, TWG_P, I understand the awesomeness of having the feats in question versus not having ANYTHING at all, but let's be fair...

Consider the 9th level 24 STR Barbarian with Improved Bull Rush and the Dungeon-crasher Fighter feature. If he just has a wall next to the bad guy (and in the Ruins, I'm guessing there will usually be one nearby), he can do an opposed strength check as a standard action to Bull Rush him into it, doing 8d6+21 points of damage. No AoO. No matter what his AC is.

(If the foe is Large or sturdy, then sure, we can consider those to be valid defenses, but for the most part, he's crushing enemies with this, isn't he?)

No to-hit or critical confirmation at all, just an opposed Str check at +11 (or +13 with a charge, +17 enlarged and charging, or +25 with that strength check RPGA card). Give him Armbands of Might, and it could be +27. That's enough to beat a Giant.

8d6+21 over and over again. Any monster that isn't uberly built for brute strength is utterly smashed to crumbs, and he's not even swinging a weapon. He just Sumos them into the wall. Boom.

And they end up prone in his threatened space (if I recall, bull rushing someone into a wall makes them prone, right?). That prone-ness would make up for the difference in attacks between your hypothetical examples, wouldn't it?

Maybe I just think that it's cool. Yeah, it's schtick, but it does seem a little more interesting than swing, hit, swing, hit...

Any words on the Greataxe/greatsword debate?
bitznarf
08-02-07, 05:37 PM Any words on the Greataxe/greatsword debate?
It comes down to personal preference. In general though, the less the variance the better for PCs. With a more brutal style PC (which yours appears to be) I would probably go with the greataxe rather than the greatsword as it seems to fit better. Mechanically they are very, very similar.
jstorrie
08-02-07, 08:09 PM Greatsword is better in almost all situations, but only by a very minute degree. Generally speaking, consistent things favour PCs, and inconsistent ones favour NPCs.

If you have the feats to get Three Mountains Style, a greatclub might outdo them both in the APL8+ range–and might be more thematically appropriate, too. Plus it squishes skeletons and clay golems.
DuctShuiTengu
08-03-07, 01:03 PM One thing to keep in mind if you go Bear Warrior: you are, at least potentially, screwing yourself on weapon damage. The boost to strength and size have the potential to be huge for bullrushing (which may outweigh the concern here), but you also don't get the two-handed power attack that's the staple of most BDFs. On the other hand, with 2 attacks at full BAB, this isn't a huge loss, and if you can get multiattack (though I don't think bear warrior's enough to qualify for that one), you're arguably even better off that way (at least when making a full attack, and if they aren't in full-attack range, there's a fair chance that you can charge and bullrush them into something).

I'd actually considered doing a similar character, though I was planning on using a heavy spiked shield for the weapon of choice (hoping to get the bashing enhancement, and spending feats on Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge, and Shield Slam for those times when shoving people into walls either isn't possible or just isn't a good idea). It just seemed like the thing to use for this tactic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fleetfang 08-02-07, 03:24 PM	Hey there. Looking for some minor advice on this build for Greyhawk Ruins. I wanted to make a really old-school Big. Dumb. Fighter. The concept isn't terribly deep, but for starters, it's Incredible Hulk meets Juggernaut, with a curiosity about strange civilized folks living in the big City... Tursk, who is called "Tursk" Half-orc Str 18 Dex 14 Con 15 Int 6 Wis 12 Cha 6 1. Bbn 1... 1: Extra rage 2. Ftr 1... F: Power Attack 3. Ftr 2... 3: Improved Bull Rush, F: (Dungeon crasher alt class feature) 4. Ftr 3 5. Ftr 4... [retrain ImpBullRush into Delay Potion], F: Improved Bull Rush 6. Ftr 5... 6: Shock Trooper 7. Ftr 6... F: (Dungeon crasher improves) 8. Ftr 7 9. Ftr 8... 9: Combat Brute, F: Improved Sunder 10. maybe return to Barbarian or go into insane-crazy Bear Warrior cheese... Delay Potion is so that he can drink an Enlarge potion every morning and not have to eat up the Wizard's actions by asking for an Enlarge. When he gets angry, he rages, activates the delayed potion, and "hulks out." Alternatively, he could delay CLW potions to stabilize himself if he drops in combat before his rage ends. I think it might be a neat trick up his sleeve, which he should easily be affording by 5th level. How does he look? I haven't played a straight-up fighter-type before, so any advice on the build is welcome. Also, I wonder if anyone has a strong opinion on the greataxe v. greatsword debate? Which should I go with for the most iconic BDF at a table? Thanks for the input! --Ff
bitznarf 08-02-07, 03:26 PM	8 Fighter levels without Weapon Focus/Weapon Spec/Melee Weapon Mastery? For shame!
Fleetfang 08-02-07, 03:58 PM	Ah, Bitz... ever the proponent of MWM and the two feats you have to take to get into it... I glanced at WeapFocus, WeapSpec, and MWM, but truth be told, when I looked at other stuff like Improved Bull Rush combined with the Dungeon Crasher alt feature and Shock Trooper, I just thought: "meh." Plus 1 to hit and damage? Plus 2 damage? another plus whatever to damage (albeit with all weapons of a single type)? Why is this so essential to making a kick-butt Fighter?
bitznarf 08-02-07, 04:05 PM	Effectively the 3 feats combined give you +10 damage per swing (with a 2 handed weapon and power attack). Thats not bad at all in my opinion, and is one of the better reasons for taking fighter 4. They tend to be paired with prestige classes that require Weapon Focus to enter though. They aren't the best feats out there, but they are solid. If you haven't seen the thread, I recommend you take a look over here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=772733).
TWG_Prometheus 08-02-07, 04:21 PM	A delayed potion will only last in your system for one hour if I recall correctly. If I'm wrong, that's cool, but if not it's a consideration. As for Melee Weapon Mastery, consider this: Fighter A with MWM and associated feats at 9th level: +20/+15 (1d12+15) Fighter B without MWW and associated feats at 9th level: +17/+12 (1d12+11) Both Fighters are assumed to have 24 Strength and +1 Greataxes. The difference in attack is more important than the difference in damage, but both are relevant. Fighter B will look like he's swinging around a weapon with which he isn't even proficient in comparison. He'll do 4 less damage on every hit and 12 less on a critical hit. He won't confirm critical hits as often. If they meet a tough-to-hit opponent (AC 33) Fighter A will hit the bad guy 40% of the time, while Fighter B will only hit 25% of the time. That's a 60% increase in the number of hits = a 60% increase in the expected amount of damage done on the first attack alone. Fighter A will hit on their iterative 15% of the time, and Fighter B will have to roll a natural 20 to hit on their iterative. Fighter A will have a decent chance to confirm crits, while Fighter B will go several modules in a row without seeing a critical hit. These numbers are the same if the AC of the opponent is 24 and both Fighters choose to do a full Power Attack. If Fighter B chooses to Power Attack 3 less on any opponent to make up the difference, they're giving up another 6 damage to Fighter A, making the gap 10 per hit. They're not only good, they're clearly superior. Unless you want to be a rebel just to do it, drop either Improved Sunder/Combat Brute or Improved Bullrush/Shock Trooper as well as Delay Potion and get Melee Weapon Mastery. I'd take Iron Will way before I ever gave Delay Potion a second glance anyway.
jstorrie 08-02-07, 04:54 PM	Bear Warrior cheese isn't really very good. You could do very well with Barb1/Fighter14. Delay Potion will last a few hours on this character, so it is a good tactic, but will not be cost effective until APL 8 or so, so I wouldn't prioritize it early. Combat Brute is less important than MWM and I'd delay it until the later levels of your build. I think you'll want to stay Fighter 14 so that you have enough feats to pick up all of the MWM chain and Reckless Rage; that's a huge amount of +hit and +damage on every swing, and you won't always be in a position to charge or crash...
Fleetfang 08-02-07, 05:33 PM	Yeah, Delayed Potions last for Con mod number of hours. I suppose Combat Brute was pretty much for flavor. I could lose Imp Sunder and C.B. and take Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec... then maybe eventually pick up MWM late. Reckless rage and Mad Foam Rager. But, TWG_P, I understand the awesomeness of having the feats in question versus not having ANYTHING at all, but let's be fair... Consider the 9th level 24 STR Barbarian with Improved Bull Rush and the Dungeon-crasher Fighter feature. If he just has a wall next to the bad guy (and in the Ruins, I'm guessing there will usually be one nearby), he can do an opposed strength check as a standard action to Bull Rush him into it, doing 8d6+21 points of damage. No AoO. No matter what his AC is. (If the foe is Large or sturdy, then sure, we can consider those to be valid defenses, but for the most part, he's crushing enemies with this, isn't he?) No to-hit or critical confirmation at all, just an opposed Str check at +11 (or +13 with a charge, +17 enlarged and charging, or +25 with that strength check RPGA card). Give him Armbands of Might, and it could be +27. That's enough to beat a Giant. 8d6+21 over and over again. Any monster that isn't uberly built for brute strength is utterly smashed to crumbs, and he's not even swinging a weapon. He just Sumos them into the wall. Boom. And they end up prone in his threatened space (if I recall, bull rushing someone into a wall makes them prone, right?). That prone-ness would make up for the difference in attacks between your hypothetical examples, wouldn't it? Maybe I just think that it's cool. Yeah, it's schtick, but it does seem a little more interesting than swing, hit, swing, hit... Any words on the Greataxe/greatsword debate?
bitznarf 08-02-07, 05:37 PM	Any words on the Greataxe/greatsword debate? It comes down to personal preference. In general though, the less the variance the better for PCs. With a more brutal style PC (which yours appears to be) I would probably go with the greataxe rather than the greatsword as it seems to fit better. Mechanically they are very, very similar.
jstorrie 08-02-07, 08:09 PM	Greatsword is better in almost all situations, but only by a very minute degree. Generally speaking, consistent things favour PCs, and inconsistent ones favour NPCs. If you have the feats to get Three Mountains Style, a greatclub might outdo them both in the APL8+ range–and might be more thematically appropriate, too. Plus it squishes skeletons and clay golems.
DuctShuiTengu 08-03-07, 01:03 PM	One thing to keep in mind if you go Bear Warrior: you are, at least potentially, screwing yourself on weapon damage. The boost to strength and size have the potential to be huge for bullrushing (which may outweigh the concern here), but you also don't get the two-handed power attack that's the staple of most BDFs. On the other hand, with 2 attacks at full BAB, this isn't a huge loss, and if you can get multiattack (though I don't think bear warrior's enough to qualify for that one), you're arguably even better off that way (at least when making a full attack, and if they aren't in full-attack range, there's a fair chance that you can charge and bullrush them into something). I'd actually considered doing a similar character, though I was planning on using a heavy spiked shield for the weapon of choice (hoping to get the bashing enhancement, and spending feats on Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge, and Shield Slam for those times when shoving people into walls either isn't possible or just isn't a good idea). It just seemed like the thing to use for this tactic.