My Updated Two-Weapon Fighter Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

My Updated Two-Weapon Fighter Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LachlarlanIII
03-01-07, 03:52 PM Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8

1: Fighter 1 - Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, *Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Maul)
2: Fighter 2 - *Weapon Focus (Maul)
3: Fighter 3 - Oversize Two-Weapon Fighting
4: Fighter 4 - *Weapon Specialization (Maul), Dex 16
5: Fighter 5
6: Fighter 6 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, *Power Attack
7: Exotic Weapon Master 1
8: Fighter 7 - Str 17
9: Fighter 8 - Brutal Strike, *Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)
10: Fighter 9
11: Fighter 10 - *Greater Weapon Focus (Maul)
12: Fighter 11 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Str 18
13: Fighter 12 - *Greater Weapon Specialization (Maul)
14: Fighter 13
15: Fighter 14 - *Crushing Strike

My previous build utilized Great Scimitars and Slashing Flurry to gain many attacks in a round.

This build instead uses Mauls and Crushing Strike to mitigate the attack penalties from Two-Weapon Fighting and Power Attack.

Brutal Strike means every attack is a potentially sickening blow.

Exotic Weapon Master should take Uncanny Blow in order to empower both primary and off-hand damage while using Power Attack.
Alpha_Nerd
03-01-07, 05:51 PM Uncanny Blow only lets you do 2x strength when wielding the Maul 1-handed. It does not affect your 1-handed damage in any way.
LachlarlanIII
03-01-07, 05:59 PM Uncanny Blow only lets you do 2x strength when wielding the Maul 1-handed. It does not affect your 1-handed damage in any way.

No, Uncanny Blow lets you do 2x Str when using a 1-handed exotic melee weapon (Maul) 2-handed (opposed to 1.5x Str normally).

It counts 1-handed weapons as 2-handed weapons for purposes of PA damage when wielded 1-handed.
Timlagor
03-01-07, 10:06 PM It counts 1-handed weapons as 2-handed weapons for purposes of PA damage when wielded 1-handed.

You really don't want to count on that because many many judges will disagree with you.
Jay_Ibero_911
03-01-07, 10:44 PM You really don't want to count on that because many many judges will disagree with you.

I really don't know why there is so much contention on this matter. They wouldn't have bothered printing it if they didn't mean it...If they disagree, then that would make that portion of the text pointless, and they don't print pointless text...
Japangirl
03-01-07, 10:48 PM The text is somewhat ambiguous to many people, and because the idea of 2x PA on a one-handed weapon bothers people, they go with the more conservative interpretation. Regardless of the "correct" answer, there is a lot of table variation and thus it may be a build that Lachlarlan wishes to avoid.
LachlarlanIII
03-01-07, 11:25 PM The text is somewhat ambiguous to many people, and because the idea of 2x PA on a one-handed weapon bothers people, they go with the more conservative interpretation. Regardless of the "correct" answer, there is a lot of table variation and thus it may be a build that Lachlarlan wishes to avoid.

There isn't any point of contention in the text.

Uncanny Dodge says you deal 2x your attack penalty with a 1-handed weapon.

While 2-handing a 1-handed weapon, you get the 2x penalty in bonus damage already.

They wouldn't have reprinted the rules text of a feat in an ability when it requires said feat to take advantage of the ability.

Any judge that disagrees is, to put it frankly, mistaken.
LachlarlanIII
03-01-07, 11:43 PM Proof:

Complete Warrior; Page 31

Uncanny Blow

When wielding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for the purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls.

PHB; Page 99

Power Attack

Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.

If a judge rules against a character with Uncanny Blow gaining x2 PA penalty as a bonus to damage while using a one-handed weapon, and instead rules that they only gain the bonus while wielding the same weapon in two hands, they are ruling that that character has a class ability that requires a feat in order to function as that feat they already have.

Doesn't make much sense from a logic standpoint.
Donald_Cannith
03-01-07, 11:44 PM I was under the impression that you only got the x2 damage when fighting with it in two hands. Otherwise you simply get to power attack as though it were a two handed weapon. But perhaps i am reading that wrong or confused myself.

I have the exact text:
When wielding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of Strength bonus x 1-1/2. If he has the power attack feat, he treats the weapon as two handed for purposes of determining damage on his bonus on damage rules.

Darn it im not fast enough.
LachlarlanIII
03-02-07, 12:02 AM I was under the impression that you only got the x2 damage when fighting with it in two hands. Otherwise you simply get to power attack as though it were a two handed weapon. But perhaps i am reading that wrong or confused myself.

I have the exact text:
When wielding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of Strength bonus x 1-1/2. If he has the power attack feat, he treats the weapon as two handed for purposes of determining damage on his bonus on damage rules.

Darn it im not fast enough.

You're correct. Normally, when you wield a weapon in two hands you gain 1.5x your Str bonus to damage. With Uncanny Blow, you gain 2x your Str bonus to damage when wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands.

Also, normally, when you wield a one-handed weapon in two hands and Power Attack you gain 2x your penalty as a damage bonus.
paigeoliver
03-02-07, 04:12 AM I'd up the INT to 12 and drop the wisdom to 8. All 10 wisdom is going to do is give you a will save that is 1 point better (your will save will still be horrible anyway), but a 12 INT means 18 more skill points over the course of your career. You could actually do something with those.
Timlagor
03-02-07, 07:59 AM I really don't know why there is so much contention on this matter. They wouldn't have bothered printing it if they didn't mean it...If they disagree, then that would make that portion of the text pointless, and they don't print pointless text...

I'm sure you can look up the arguments for yourself if you want to. I'm not going to repeat them here. It's enough to say that many people disagree with you.

The claim that "they don't print pointless text" is simply laughable however.
Gaelforcwynd
03-02-07, 08:48 AM Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8

1: Fighter 1 - Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, *Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Maul)
2: Fighter 2 - *Weapon Focus (Maul)
3: Fighter 3 - Oversize Two-Weapon Fighting
4: Fighter 4 - *Weapon Specialization (Maul), Dex 16
5: Fighter 5
6: Fighter 6 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, *Power Attack
7: Exotic Weapon Master 1
8: Fighter 7
9: Fighter 8 - *Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning), Str 17
10: Fighter 9 - Brutal Strike
11: Fighter 10 - *Greater Weapon Focus (Maul)
12: Fighter 11
13: Fighter 12 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, *Greater Weapon Specialization (Maul), Str 18
14: Fighter 13
15: Fighter 14 - *Crushing Strike

My previous build utilized Great Scimitars and Slashing Flurry to gain many attacks in a round.

This build instead uses Mauls and Crushing Strike to mitigate the attack penalties from Two-Weapon Fighting and Power Attack.

Brutal Strike means every attack is a potentially sickening blow.

Exotic Weapon Master should take Uncanny Blow in order to empower both primary and off-hand damage while using Power Attack.

I have a question regarding the Power Attack feat. It says you can subtract up to your BaB from attack rolls and instead convert that number to damage on a successful hit.

Does that mean you can convert attack modifiers such as STR or the +1 from a masterwork weapon, but not your actual BaB, to damage?

Or does it mean you can just convert whatever your actual BaB is according to your class table, irrespective of any other modifiers?

So to figure out how much attack bonus you can convert, is it just the BaB number according to your level, or could you use all your attack bonuses aquired from Abilities, weapon enchantments, feats etc, but not your BaB?

Also, if you like the two-weapon fighting idea, try starting off with a level in Cleric of Azor'Alq and get the MWP(rapier) and WF(rapier) as free feats, then take two other martial feats, such as TWF, then start taking Fighter levels from then on, getting Quick Draw, Improved Critical, TWD etc.

Basically you can get WF(rapier) for free this way and a lot of attacks with them as you progress in level. It has a promising threat range. Oops I just realised it's not a light weapon.. :(
Donald_Cannith
03-02-07, 08:57 AM well iguess if it makessense in yourh ead that subtraction can come from anywhere so long as it doesnt exceed your BAB, but then the question winds up why would you want to complicate the dea by explaining it to yourself that way.

just. stick to the BAB becus its so much simpler that way.
It is eant to be just your BAB and nothing more ,becus thats how the ability is balanced. You are not obligated to PA for all your BAB if you dont want to, but it is an option.

In short, BAB only, as tahst the human part of your accuracy here and the only amount by which your hitting becomes lesss likely.
bhale187
03-02-07, 09:42 AM So to figure out how much attack bonus you can convert, is it just the BaB number according to your level, or could you use all your attack bonuses aquired from Abilities, weapon enchantments, feats etc, but not your BaB?

The max you can convert to power attack is you BAB. BAB is your standard base attack bonus from class ONLY. It does not count STR bonuses, smite bonuses, flanking bonuses, feat bonuses, enchantment bonuses, etc.
Gaelforcwynd
03-02-07, 10:28 AM well iguess if it makessense in yourh ead that subtraction can come from anywhere so long as it doesnt exceed your BAB, but then the question winds up why would you want to complicate the dea by explaining it to yourself that way.

just. stick to the BAB becus its so much simpler that way.
It is eant to be just your BAB and nothing more ,becus thats how the ability is balanced. You are not obligated to PA for all your BAB if you dont want to, but it is an option.

In short, BAB only, as tahst the human part of your accuracy here and the only amount by which your hitting becomes lesss likely.

No I meant can you subtract attack bonuses from your overall bonus, so long as it doesn't cut into your BaB, or just up to and including your BaB.

I'm not trying to find overlapping sources for that number, as I think your reply, generated through your misunderstanding of my question indicates.
Gaelforcwynd
03-02-07, 10:29 AM The max you can convert to power attack is you BAB. BAB is your standard base attack bonus from class ONLY. It does not count STR bonuses, smite bonuses, flanking bonuses, feat bonuses, enchantment bonuses, etc.

Okay thanks mate, that clears things up for me.
LachlarlanIII
03-02-07, 10:31 AM Also, if you like the two-weapon fighting idea, try starting off with a level in Cleric of Azor'Alq and get the MWP(rapier) and WF(rapier) as free feats, then take two other martial feats, such as TWF, then start taking Fighter levels from then on, getting Quick Draw, Improved Critical, TWD etc.

Basically you can get WF(rapier) for free this way and a lot of attacks with them as you progress in level. It has a promising threat range. Oops I just realised it's not a light weapon.. :(

That's what Oversize Two-Weapon Fighting is for ;)
KarmaInferno
03-02-07, 10:48 AM Hum.

Perhaps throw Monkey Grip into the equation?

Dual Wield two Large one-handed weapons?

-karma

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 03:52 PM	Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 1: Fighter 1 - Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Maul) 2: Fighter 2 - Weapon Focus (Maul) 3: Fighter 3 - Oversize Two-Weapon Fighting 4: Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization (Maul), Dex 16 5: Fighter 5 6: Fighter 6 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack 7: Exotic Weapon Master 1 8: Fighter 7 - Str 17 9: Fighter 8 - Brutal Strike, Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning) 10: Fighter 9 11: Fighter 10 - Greater Weapon Focus (Maul) 12: Fighter 11 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Str 18 13: Fighter 12 - Greater Weapon Specialization (Maul) 14: Fighter 13 15: Fighter 14 - Crushing Strike My previous build utilized Great Scimitars and Slashing Flurry to gain many attacks in a round. This build instead uses Mauls and Crushing Strike to mitigate the attack penalties from Two-Weapon Fighting and Power Attack. Brutal Strike means every attack is a potentially sickening blow. Exotic Weapon Master should take Uncanny Blow in order to empower both primary and off-hand damage while using Power Attack.
Alpha_Nerd 03-01-07, 05:51 PM	Uncanny Blow only lets you do 2x strength when wielding the Maul 1-handed. It does not affect your 1-handed damage in any way.
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 05:59 PM	Uncanny Blow only lets you do 2x strength when wielding the Maul 1-handed. It does not affect your 1-handed damage in any way. No, Uncanny Blow lets you do 2x Str when using a 1-handed exotic melee weapon (Maul) 2-handed (opposed to 1.5x Str normally). It counts 1-handed weapons as 2-handed weapons for purposes of PA damage when wielded 1-handed.
Timlagor 03-01-07, 10:06 PM	It counts 1-handed weapons as 2-handed weapons for purposes of PA damage when wielded 1-handed. You really don't want to count on that because many many judges will disagree with you.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 10:44 PM	You really don't want to count on that because many many judges will disagree with you. I really don't know why there is so much contention on this matter. They wouldn't have bothered printing it if they didn't mean it...If they disagree, then that would make that portion of the text pointless, and they don't print pointless text...
Japangirl 03-01-07, 10:48 PM	The text is somewhat ambiguous to many people, and because the idea of 2x PA on a one-handed weapon bothers people, they go with the more conservative interpretation. Regardless of the "correct" answer, there is a lot of table variation and thus it may be a build that Lachlarlan wishes to avoid.
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 11:25 PM	The text is somewhat ambiguous to many people, and because the idea of 2x PA on a one-handed weapon bothers people, they go with the more conservative interpretation. Regardless of the "correct" answer, there is a lot of table variation and thus it may be a build that Lachlarlan wishes to avoid. There isn't any point of contention in the text. Uncanny Dodge says you deal 2x your attack penalty with a 1-handed weapon. While 2-handing a 1-handed weapon, you get the 2x penalty in bonus damage already. They wouldn't have reprinted the rules text of a feat in an ability when it requires said feat to take advantage of the ability. Any judge that disagrees is, to put it frankly, mistaken.
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 11:43 PM	Proof: Complete Warrior; Page 31 Uncanny Blow When wielding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for the purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls. PHB; Page 99 Power Attack Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. If a judge rules against a character with Uncanny Blow gaining x2 PA penalty as a bonus to damage while using a one-handed weapon, and instead rules that they only gain the bonus while wielding the same weapon in two hands, they are ruling that that character has a class ability that requires a feat in order to function as that feat they already have. Doesn't make much sense from a logic standpoint.
Donald_Cannith 03-01-07, 11:44 PM	I was under the impression that you only got the x2 damage when fighting with it in two hands. Otherwise you simply get to power attack as though it were a two handed weapon. But perhaps i am reading that wrong or confused myself. I have the exact text: When wielding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of Strength bonus x 1-1/2. If he has the power attack feat, he treats the weapon as two handed for purposes of determining damage on his bonus on damage rules. Darn it im not fast enough.
LachlarlanIII 03-02-07, 12:02 AM	I was under the impression that you only got the x2 damage when fighting with it in two hands. Otherwise you simply get to power attack as though it were a two handed weapon. But perhaps i am reading that wrong or confused myself. I have the exact text: When wielding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of Strength bonus x 1-1/2. If he has the power attack feat, he treats the weapon as two handed for purposes of determining damage on his bonus on damage rules. Darn it im not fast enough. You're correct. Normally, when you wield a weapon in two hands you gain 1.5x your Str bonus to damage. With Uncanny Blow, you gain 2x your Str bonus to damage when wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands. Also, normally, when you wield a one-handed weapon in two hands and Power Attack you gain 2x your penalty as a damage bonus.
paigeoliver 03-02-07, 04:12 AM	I'd up the INT to 12 and drop the wisdom to 8. All 10 wisdom is going to do is give you a will save that is 1 point better (your will save will still be horrible anyway), but a 12 INT means 18 more skill points over the course of your career. You could actually do something with those.
Timlagor 03-02-07, 07:59 AM	I really don't know why there is so much contention on this matter. They wouldn't have bothered printing it if they didn't mean it...If they disagree, then that would make that portion of the text pointless, and they don't print pointless text... I'm sure you can look up the arguments for yourself if you want to. I'm not going to repeat them here. It's enough to say that many people disagree with you. The claim that "they don't print pointless text" is simply laughable however.
Gaelforcwynd 03-02-07, 08:48 AM	Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 1: Fighter 1 - Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Maul) 2: Fighter 2 - Weapon Focus (Maul) 3: Fighter 3 - Oversize Two-Weapon Fighting 4: Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization (Maul), Dex 16 5: Fighter 5 6: Fighter 6 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack 7: Exotic Weapon Master 1 8: Fighter 7 9: Fighter 8 - Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning), Str 17 10: Fighter 9 - Brutal Strike 11: Fighter 10 - Greater Weapon Focus (Maul) 12: Fighter 11 13: Fighter 12 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Specialization (Maul), Str 18 14: Fighter 13 15: Fighter 14 - Crushing Strike My previous build utilized Great Scimitars and Slashing Flurry to gain many attacks in a round. This build instead uses Mauls and Crushing Strike to mitigate the attack penalties from Two-Weapon Fighting and Power Attack. Brutal Strike means every attack is a potentially sickening blow. Exotic Weapon Master should take Uncanny Blow in order to empower both primary and off-hand damage while using Power Attack. I have a question regarding the Power Attack feat. It says you can subtract up to your BaB from attack rolls and instead convert that number to damage on a successful hit. Does that mean you can convert attack modifiers such as STR or the +1 from a masterwork weapon, but not your actual BaB, to damage? Or does it mean you can just convert whatever your actual BaB is according to your class table, irrespective of any other modifiers? So to figure out how much attack bonus you can convert, is it just the BaB number according to your level, or could you use all your attack bonuses aquired from Abilities, weapon enchantments, feats etc, but not your BaB? Also, if you like the two-weapon fighting idea, try starting off with a level in Cleric of Azor'Alq and get the MWP(rapier) and WF(rapier) as free feats, then take two other martial feats, such as TWF, then start taking Fighter levels from then on, getting Quick Draw, Improved Critical, TWD etc. Basically you can get WF(rapier) for free this way and a lot of attacks with them as you progress in level. It has a promising threat range. Oops I just realised it's not a light weapon.. :(
Donald_Cannith 03-02-07, 08:57 AM	well iguess if it makessense in yourh ead that subtraction can come from anywhere so long as it doesnt exceed your BAB, but then the question winds up why would you want to complicate the dea by explaining it to yourself that way. just. stick to the BAB becus its so much simpler that way. It is eant to be just your BAB and nothing more ,becus thats how the ability is balanced. You are not obligated to PA for all your BAB if you dont want to, but it is an option. In short, BAB only, as tahst the human part of your accuracy here and the only amount by which your hitting becomes lesss likely.
bhale187 03-02-07, 09:42 AM	So to figure out how much attack bonus you can convert, is it just the BaB number according to your level, or could you use all your attack bonuses aquired from Abilities, weapon enchantments, feats etc, but not your BaB? The max you can convert to power attack is you BAB. BAB is your standard base attack bonus from class ONLY. It does not count STR bonuses, smite bonuses, flanking bonuses, feat bonuses, enchantment bonuses, etc.
Gaelforcwynd 03-02-07, 10:28 AM	well iguess if it makessense in yourh ead that subtraction can come from anywhere so long as it doesnt exceed your BAB, but then the question winds up why would you want to complicate the dea by explaining it to yourself that way. just. stick to the BAB becus its so much simpler that way. It is eant to be just your BAB and nothing more ,becus thats how the ability is balanced. You are not obligated to PA for all your BAB if you dont want to, but it is an option. In short, BAB only, as tahst the human part of your accuracy here and the only amount by which your hitting becomes lesss likely. No I meant can you subtract attack bonuses from your overall bonus, so long as it doesn't cut into your BaB, or just up to and including your BaB. I'm not trying to find overlapping sources for that number, as I think your reply, generated through your misunderstanding of my question indicates.
Gaelforcwynd 03-02-07, 10:29 AM	The max you can convert to power attack is you BAB. BAB is your standard base attack bonus from class ONLY. It does not count STR bonuses, smite bonuses, flanking bonuses, feat bonuses, enchantment bonuses, etc. Okay thanks mate, that clears things up for me.
LachlarlanIII 03-02-07, 10:31 AM	Also, if you like the two-weapon fighting idea, try starting off with a level in Cleric of Azor'Alq and get the MWP(rapier) and WF(rapier) as free feats, then take two other martial feats, such as TWF, then start taking Fighter levels from then on, getting Quick Draw, Improved Critical, TWD etc. Basically you can get WF(rapier) for free this way and a lot of attacks with them as you progress in level. It has a promising threat range. Oops I just realised it's not a light weapon.. :( That's what Oversize Two-Weapon Fighting is for ;)
KarmaInferno 03-02-07, 10:48 AM	Hum. Perhaps throw Monkey Grip into the equation? Dual Wield two Large one-handed weapons? -karma