Mystic Theurge of Vergadein [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mystic Theurge of Vergadein [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_metz_
04-07-07, 03:28 AM ok, always wanted a MT, but I would like to make sure my build is good:

Question: does Practiced spellcaster make me caster level 3rd? e.g: two cleric one wizard do I count as Caster level 3 if I have Prac. Spellcaster Cleric?

If it does, then my build is as follows:

Neutral Dwarven Mystic Theurge

Domains: Luck and ???

Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 17
Int: 16
Wis: 16
Cha: 6

Stat bumps will be con, int, int.

Level Progression:

Cleric1: Practiced spellcaster Cleric
Wiz1: Scribe Scroll (for lots of enlarges and other useful first level scrolls)
Cleric2: CWI (see above question)
Cleric3: (to make advantage of Scribe scroll for bulls str, etc and other useful scrolls)
Wiz2: (Stat bump con)
Wiz3: Practiced spellcaster, Wizard
MT1:
MT2:(Stat bump Int)
MT3: Leadership

Idea is to start crafting early, at level 4 will be able to make a lot of stat boosters, and I want a +4 cha booster by level 9 so I can take a cohort.

What say you guys?

(If Practiced spellcaster doesn't work for CWI, then Will take first three levels as Cleric.)

Never built an MT before so nay help would be appreciated.
GreatSiron
04-07-07, 10:01 AM Practiced caster can add up to 4 caster lvls depending on your lvl and the lvl of your spell casting class (your caster lvl cannot exceed your number of HD). I your example, yes, you would be a third lvl cleric for caster lvl checks and effects of a spell related to caster lvl. (Such as how many missles you get with Magic Misslie)
JamesMaissen
04-07-07, 12:28 PM ok, always wanted a MT

My advice to anyone thinking about a 'gestalt' PrC goal is to ask yourself what you are looking to achieve with the build. Why are you drawn to MT?

If you are seeing it as both wizard and cleric, then like all of the two in one class PrCs you will find disappointment. A Theurge can be a decent support character, but that doesn't always fit everyone's desires when they choose one.

Understand the hardships going in and you won't be regretting things later on.

-James
TWG_Prometheus
04-07-07, 03:30 PM I've run into some disagreement on this point, but in the end, there's nothing in the rules that say it doesnt' work. Practiced Spellcaster puts zero qualifications on the purposes for which your increased caster level may be used, and the Crafting Feats require absolutely nothing more than a hard caster level maximum.

It apparently rubs some people the wrong way, so you might rarely find table variation on whether Practiced Spellcaster can be used to qualify for Magic Item Creation. Be aware of that if you make such a choice.

I would question the wisdom of attempting to pursue such a path in your build, however. Your justification for placing Wizard at 2nd level was one based on timing, that of wanting to start Enlarges earlier. I would counter-argue that you would find it more helpful to be casting 2nd level Clerical spells earlier rather than later, and that Cleric 3 should go first. This would also remove any question about the legality of your CWI selection as a bonus.

As James pointed out above me, it's entirely OK to play a Mystic Theurge, but please do think long and hard about whether you truly want to do so first. Mystic Theurge is a build that takes a long time (12+) levels to develop into something that feels powerful and, even worse, it doesn't start to feel all that weak until you're a fair bit into it (5-6) making it somewhat of a 'trap' build. Understand the weaknesses and strengths of what you're trying to accomplish (There are some advantages) before pursuing this path, however, and you'll be fine. Are you certain that a full Wizard with Arcane Disciple couldn't emulate what you're hoping to accomplish better?
King Kashue
04-07-07, 03:52 PM I've run into some disagreement on this point, but in the end, there's nothing in the rules that say it doesnt' work. Practiced Spellcaster puts zero qualifications on the purposes for which your increased caster level may be used, and the Crafting Feats require absolutely nothing more than a hard caster level maximum.

It apparently rubs some people the wrong way, so you might rarely find table variation on whether Practiced Spellcaster can be used to qualify for Magic Item Creation. Be aware of that if you make such a choice.

The FAQ addresses it.

Q: Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced
Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires “Spellcaster level 5th”?
A: No. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats, class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”) The same applies for characters whose caster level is less than their class level. A 5th-level paladin meets the “Spellcaster level 5th) requirement, even though her actual caster level is only 2nd.

So there's the difference between "Caster Level" and "Spellcaster Level"

Since CWI requires "Caster Level 3rd", you're just fine with practiced spellcaster :D
_metz_
04-07-07, 10:10 PM I have wanted to do a Mystic Theurge for largely roleplaying reasons. If I was being optimal I would have built an Arcane Heirophant long ago...

I want to do it to have access to most of the spells in the game, as well as to have a rather lot of spells by around level 10. I'm happy for it to take that long. I have many other characters.
jstorrie
04-07-07, 10:47 PM Leadership isn't going to be a great idea for a build like this–you'll want to run a 16 Con. Arcane Disciple: Pact might be nice, if you're starting with Luck and Knowledge or Trickery. You might consider taking Luck feats, too, if you take the Luck domain.
eloiwyn
04-15-07, 02:40 PM I have a 7th-level mystic theurge (gray elf cleric[Sehanine]-3/wizard[transmuter]-3/mystic theurge-1) that I very much enjoy. No one in our group likes to play clerics, but the mystic theurge lets me support the party with healing while still getting to have the skills and arcane spells that I enjoy. It's not a glory character-- I don't do great damage to anything-- but I keep the party on their feet with heals and buffs, frequently save the day with my extensive library of scrolls, and also get to entertain myself with lots of knowledge rolls, role-playing, and the occasionally spectacular results of grease or glitterdust.

A couple comments on your build...

1) A dwarf's favored class is fighter, so if you don't keep your wizard and cleric levels even, you'll have xp penalties. Your proposed build runs into this problem at 4th level, when you become a cleric-3/wizard-1. You would have a similar problem if you tried to take all three levels of cleric first. For my character, I DID take the first three levels of all cleric, because I wanted to keep my armor on as long as possible and have 2nd level cures as soon as possible, but a non-elf does not have that luxury.

2) Why so much con??? A mystic theurge is NOT a melee character-- you fling support spells (or the occasional magic missile or range damage spell)from the back, or run around with heals and buffs. Your party needs you hale and mobile, not stuck in threatened squares. So, forget the hit points-- you need dex for armor class (and for range touch attack spells and for initiative to get off some buffs), and you probably need a little more strength to be able to carry stuff without movement penalties.

--Eloiwyn
Japangirl
04-15-07, 05:52 PM Con is good, for many reasons. Hitpoints and Fort saves mean living, especially with lots of d4 HD. I might drop it to a 16 though and put those last 2 points in Str for carrying capacity, but the 17 is not a bad idea. With the 17, you can put 2 stat bumps in one casting stat and one in Con to end up with an 18 . . . that's actually pretty awesome. Dex won't help much, since AC is going to be really low anyways and I'd guess you won't be flinging many ranged spells at opponents.
_metz_
04-15-07, 09:28 PM essentially, yeah I am not going to be a rayist, more of a buffer, and so fancy hitpoints as being more important.

I have found you can buff your AC and buy gloves of dex, you CAN'T on the other hand buff CON and Wisdom easily, both take the same slot...

Henc its important to have the high Con, as the character will probably have a periapt of wisdom.

the 17 is for that exact reason, one bump to con, two to InT (cleric spells more for buffing, so need DCs for wizzie spells)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_metz_ 04-07-07, 03:28 AM	ok, always wanted a MT, but I would like to make sure my build is good: Question: does Practiced spellcaster make me caster level 3rd? e.g: two cleric one wizard do I count as Caster level 3 if I have Prac. Spellcaster Cleric? If it does, then my build is as follows: Neutral Dwarven Mystic Theurge Domains: Luck and ??? Str: 8 Dex: 8 Con: 17 Int: 16 Wis: 16 Cha: 6 Stat bumps will be con, int, int. Level Progression: Cleric1: Practiced spellcaster Cleric Wiz1: Scribe Scroll (for lots of enlarges and other useful first level scrolls) Cleric2: CWI (see above question) Cleric3: (to make advantage of Scribe scroll for bulls str, etc and other useful scrolls) Wiz2: (Stat bump con) Wiz3: Practiced spellcaster, Wizard MT1: MT2:(Stat bump Int) MT3: Leadership Idea is to start crafting early, at level 4 will be able to make a lot of stat boosters, and I want a +4 cha booster by level 9 so I can take a cohort. What say you guys? (If Practiced spellcaster doesn't work for CWI, then Will take first three levels as Cleric.) Never built an MT before so nay help would be appreciated.
GreatSiron 04-07-07, 10:01 AM	Practiced caster can add up to 4 caster lvls depending on your lvl and the lvl of your spell casting class (your caster lvl cannot exceed your number of HD). I your example, yes, you would be a third lvl cleric for caster lvl checks and effects of a spell related to caster lvl. (Such as how many missles you get with Magic Misslie)
JamesMaissen 04-07-07, 12:28 PM	ok, always wanted a MT My advice to anyone thinking about a 'gestalt' PrC goal is to ask yourself what you are looking to achieve with the build. Why are you drawn to MT? If you are seeing it as both wizard and cleric, then like all of the two in one class PrCs you will find disappointment. A Theurge can be a decent support character, but that doesn't always fit everyone's desires when they choose one. Understand the hardships going in and you won't be regretting things later on. -James
TWG_Prometheus 04-07-07, 03:30 PM	I've run into some disagreement on this point, but in the end, there's nothing in the rules that say it doesnt' work. Practiced Spellcaster puts zero qualifications on the purposes for which your increased caster level may be used, and the Crafting Feats require absolutely nothing more than a hard caster level maximum. It apparently rubs some people the wrong way, so you might rarely find table variation on whether Practiced Spellcaster can be used to qualify for Magic Item Creation. Be aware of that if you make such a choice. I would question the wisdom of attempting to pursue such a path in your build, however. Your justification for placing Wizard at 2nd level was one based on timing, that of wanting to start Enlarges earlier. I would counter-argue that you would find it more helpful to be casting 2nd level Clerical spells earlier rather than later, and that Cleric 3 should go first. This would also remove any question about the legality of your CWI selection as a bonus. As James pointed out above me, it's entirely OK to play a Mystic Theurge, but please do think long and hard about whether you truly want to do so first. Mystic Theurge is a build that takes a long time (12+) levels to develop into something that feels powerful and, even worse, it doesn't start to feel all that weak until you're a fair bit into it (5-6) making it somewhat of a 'trap' build. Understand the weaknesses and strengths of what you're trying to accomplish (There are some advantages) before pursuing this path, however, and you'll be fine. Are you certain that a full Wizard with Arcane Disciple couldn't emulate what you're hoping to accomplish better?
King Kashue 04-07-07, 03:52 PM	I've run into some disagreement on this point, but in the end, there's nothing in the rules that say it doesnt' work. Practiced Spellcaster puts zero qualifications on the purposes for which your increased caster level may be used, and the Crafting Feats require absolutely nothing more than a hard caster level maximum. It apparently rubs some people the wrong way, so you might rarely find table variation on whether Practiced Spellcaster can be used to qualify for Magic Item Creation. Be aware of that if you make such a choice. The FAQ addresses it. Q: Does a 1st-level wizard/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster qualify for a prestige class that requires “Spellcaster level 5th”? A: No. This prestige class requirement doesn’t refer to your caster level (a value which can be modified by many feats, class features, and even temporary effects) but to your actual level in a spellcasting class. (If it helps, you can think of this requirement as “Spellcaster, 5th level.”) The same applies for characters whose caster level is less than their class level. A 5th-level paladin meets the “Spellcaster level 5th) requirement, even though her actual caster level is only 2nd. So there's the difference between "Caster Level" and "Spellcaster Level" Since CWI requires "Caster Level 3rd", you're just fine with practiced spellcaster :D
_metz_ 04-07-07, 10:10 PM	I have wanted to do a Mystic Theurge for largely roleplaying reasons. If I was being optimal I would have built an Arcane Heirophant long ago... I want to do it to have access to most of the spells in the game, as well as to have a rather lot of spells by around level 10. I'm happy for it to take that long. I have many other characters.
jstorrie 04-07-07, 10:47 PM	Leadership isn't going to be a great idea for a build like this–you'll want to run a 16 Con. Arcane Disciple: Pact might be nice, if you're starting with Luck and Knowledge or Trickery. You might consider taking Luck feats, too, if you take the Luck domain.
eloiwyn 04-15-07, 02:40 PM	I have a 7th-level mystic theurge (gray elf cleric[Sehanine]-3/wizard[transmuter]-3/mystic theurge-1) that I very much enjoy. No one in our group likes to play clerics, but the mystic theurge lets me support the party with healing while still getting to have the skills and arcane spells that I enjoy. It's not a glory character-- I don't do great damage to anything-- but I keep the party on their feet with heals and buffs, frequently save the day with my extensive library of scrolls, and also get to entertain myself with lots of knowledge rolls, role-playing, and the occasionally spectacular results of grease or glitterdust. A couple comments on your build... 1) A dwarf's favored class is fighter, so if you don't keep your wizard and cleric levels even, you'll have xp penalties. Your proposed build runs into this problem at 4th level, when you become a cleric-3/wizard-1. You would have a similar problem if you tried to take all three levels of cleric first. For my character, I DID take the first three levels of all cleric, because I wanted to keep my armor on as long as possible and have 2nd level cures as soon as possible, but a non-elf does not have that luxury. 2) Why so much con??? A mystic theurge is NOT a melee character-- you fling support spells (or the occasional magic missile or range damage spell)from the back, or run around with heals and buffs. Your party needs you hale and mobile, not stuck in threatened squares. So, forget the hit points-- you need dex for armor class (and for range touch attack spells and for initiative to get off some buffs), and you probably need a little more strength to be able to carry stuff without movement penalties. --Eloiwyn
Japangirl 04-15-07, 05:52 PM	Con is good, for many reasons. Hitpoints and Fort saves mean living, especially with lots of d4 HD. I might drop it to a 16 though and put those last 2 points in Str for carrying capacity, but the 17 is not a bad idea. With the 17, you can put 2 stat bumps in one casting stat and one in Con to end up with an 18 . . . that's actually pretty awesome. Dex won't help much, since AC is going to be really low anyways and I'd guess you won't be flinging many ranged spells at opponents.
_metz_ 04-15-07, 09:28 PM	essentially, yeah I am not going to be a rayist, more of a buffer, and so fancy hitpoints as being more important. I have found you can buff your AC and buy gloves of dex, you CAN'T on the other hand buff CON and Wisdom easily, both take the same slot... Henc its important to have the high Con, as the character will probably have a periapt of wisdom. the 17 is for that exact reason, one bump to con, two to InT (cleric spells more for buffing, so need DCs for wizzie spells)