Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreatSiron 03-31-07, 08:05 PM	I'm wanting to make a Mystic Therurge of Zagyg for Greyhawk Ruins (mostly for flavor reasons). I however have no idea of how one is to be played, as I have never even seen one before. I have heard that they aren't very powerful, and would like to know what feats to take to circumvent that. Human Str:10 (2) Dex:12 (4) Con:14 (6) Int:14 (6) Wis:14 (6) Cha:12 (4) Lvl 1:Cleric Feats: Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) Lvl 2: Cleric Lvl 3: Cleric Feat: Augment Healing Lvl 4: Wizard Stat:Con Lvl 5: Wizard Lvl 6: Wizard Feat: CWI Lvl 7: Mystic Theurge Lvl 8: Mystic Theurge Stat: Con Lvl 9: Mystic Theurge Feat:? From there I will keep bumping Constitution and will craft stat boost items so that I can cast higher lvl spells. However I have no idea on feat choices after 6th (and Im not even sure that those are the right ones) and no idea on what my role in combat will be (always being at least one spell lvl behind)
magebeast 03-31-07, 11:28 PM	Interesting. I would think you can't take practiced spellcaster without the spellcasting class but there's nothing in the rules saying you can't. As for the other, as far as I know it's pretty typical to tank one of your casting stats in favor of the other. Your "high" stat is the one you intend to do blasting with, and your tanked casting stat is the one you'll use for buffing and support spells. Honestly, 14 con is probably sufficient for a character that won't necessarily be front lining all that often. You might want to bump one of your casting stats instead. EDIT: I'd buy a 13 for whichever stat is going to be your buffing/support stat, so that when you upgrade that slot to a +4 you've got the minimum stat you need to cover all your bases (17).
Japangirl 03-31-07, 11:45 PM	I'd dump the Cha, you won't be turning anything anyways, and ues those 4 points into your primary casting stat as described by Magebeast. Then you have Str 10, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14/16, Wis 14/16, and Cha 8. I agree that you should bump your primary casting stat instead of Con, as a 14 is likely enough.
Lomiat 04-01-07, 12:10 AM	I'd recommend buying two 16s for casting stats and some CON, but that's how I do things. Either way, you shouldn't worry too much about save DCs because, despite how much I've recently seen people play Mystic Theurges as blasters, I'm convinced the best role a Mystic Theurge can play is that of a buffer with a bit of battlefield control in the mix. To that end, I'd recommend taking Improved Initiative at 1st level and then picking up Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd and 6th levels. I'd also recommend playing a specialist wizard who can use cleric spells to fill in the gaps.
Britt 04-01-07, 12:19 AM	I'd go with either a 16/15 or 15/14 combo for your casting stats. You don't need STR at all, and probably don't need DEX unless you are going to be using some rays. My mystic theurge of Ralishaz was focused on debuffs. I really liked it and I think it would work great with the new debuff amulet card. I was a bard/clr though, so I could get modify memory and glibness eventually. You could try to use some non-standard classes to try to avoid MAD. STR 8 (0) DEX 10 (2) CON 14 (6) INT 16 (10) WIS 15 (8) CHA 10 (2) or STR 8 (0) DEX 10 (2) CON 16 (10) INT 15 (8) WIS 14 (6) CHA 10 (2)
JamesMaissen 04-01-07, 04:16 AM	I'm wanting to make a Mystic Therurge of Zagyg for Greyhawk Ruins (mostly for flavor reasons). I however have no idea of how one is to be played, as I have never even seen one before. I have heard that they aren't very powerful, and would like to know what feats to take to circumvent that. Well first of all I would simply make a pure cleric with the Magic domain and 'call' him a Mystic Theurge. Joke's on them if they think that you've got wizard levels! Alternatively go for a Beguiler with UMD and Bluff. When someone wants healing or another clerical spell.. consult 'the runes' and then say whether or not Zagyg finds humor in the request... -James
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-07, 08:59 AM	Well first of all I would simply make a pure cleric with the Magic domain and 'call' him a Mystic Theurge. Joke's on them if they think that you've got wizard levels! Domain Spontaneity can be very useful for this kind of build. Although, I wouldn't actually claim to be an actual Mystic Theurge(except in 'character') My Beguiler claims to be a Favored Soul, but I, the player, always tell the other players what is going on.
nobodez 04-01-07, 09:05 AM	Yeah, I've got a character is waiting that's much the same, as he's a Warmage with Arcane Disciple (Healing). He's a bit of a MT. Of course, I actually find that Arcane hierophant makes a better MT than MT itself, and you can always go the Drd3/Wiz3/MT2/AH7 route.
MichaelAhlf 04-01-07, 12:49 PM	I'm wanting to make a Mystic Therurge of Zagyg for Greyhawk Ruins (mostly for flavor reasons). I however have no idea of how one is to be played, as I have never even seen one before. I have heard that they aren't very powerful, and would like to know what feats to take to circumvent that. Human Str:10 (2) Dex:12 (4) Con:14 (6) Int:14 (6) Wis:14 (6) Cha:12 (4) Lvl 1:Cleric Feats: Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) Lvl 2: Cleric Lvl 3: Cleric Feat: Augment Healing Lvl 4: Wizard Stat:Con Lvl 5: Wizard Lvl 6: Wizard Feat: CWI Lvl 7: Mystic Theurge Lvl 8: Mystic Theurge Stat: Con Lvl 9: Mystic Theurge Feat:? From there I will keep bumping Constitution and will craft stat boost items so that I can cast higher lvl spells. However I have no idea on feat choices after 6th (and Im not even sure that those are the right ones) and no idea on what my role in combat will be (always being at least one spell lvl behind) Well first, a 10 CHA is probably fine for you. Put the other 2 points into buying a 15 Con rather than a 14, then all three of your stat bumps are accounted for. Str:10 (2) Dex:12 (4) Con:15 (8) Int:14 (6) Wis:14 (6) Cha:10 (2) Since you're a wizard/cleric you're going to want to take advantage of having the "free" Scribe Scroll feat. Take every single utility spell that doesn't depend on level or works well at minimum caster level, and scribe scrolls every time you play. You might consider taking one level of Wizard earlier, like at level 2, just to get that Scribe feat for the various Cleric spells. I don't suggest Craft Rod or Forge Ring. CR requires you to have the metamagic feat to craft the rod, which burns precious feat slots. Forge Ring is just expensive, and you only get two ring slots, unless you're planning to keep extra rings to hand to others at the table. Taking the Practiced Spellcaster in both slots earlier is going to diminish your performance. Wizard is the primary area where you're going to need it, as the "boom" and duration spells are coming from that side in the lower-level spells. Magic Missile comes to mind here. Also, keep in mind the new crafting guidelines, you can start crafting stuff as soon as you have the feat, so you can get the +2 stat bump items with no problem. Pick whichever stat you'd really like to have an extra 6th level spell for, and give that your level 8 and 12 stat bumps. That way, you reach a 22 in that, and a 20 in the other eventually. Theurges live by having massive amounts of spells per day. Finally, a Theurge is most effective when they have a lot of buffing and battlefield control options. On the Cleric side, things like Invisibility Purge, Bull's Strength (early levels), Enlarge Person, Resist Energy, Magic Vestments, Greater Magic Weapon, and other party-buffs will be your strength. On the Wizard side, learn wall spells and battlefield control items like Grease and Web that have power even if the enemy makes its initial saving throw, and add Greater Invisibility, weaponry buffs, and spells like Haste to the mix. Hold on to a few damage spells, if you find yourself with an idle round in combat, but don't expect them to be something you do often. If you do decide to take a metamagic or two, Empower Spell will be good for you. It gives you better bang for the buck, and given the tendency of monsters to make saving throws at higher levels, an Empowered Magic Missile is more damaging to the opponent you really want to hit than a fireball. With the number of spells you have, Quicken could be worth it once you have 5th and 6th level spells, even if you only memorize one or two quickened spells on a given day. Also, once you get 4th level spells, consider Dragon's Breath as an option. You can share it with your familiar and let him do the blasting while you concentrate on using your other spells. It's not nearly as good as the old Imbue Familiar spell that was banned, but it does give him something to do with his actions. "Free damage", more or less. If you see access to Sudden Maximize, it may be worth taking. Lvl 1:Cleric Feats: Augment Healing, ??? Lvl 2: Cleric Lvl 3: Cleric Feat: Create Wondrous Item Lvl 4: Wizard Stat:Con Lvl 5: Wizard Lvl 6: Wizard Feat: Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) Lvl 7: Mystic Theurge Lvl 8: Mystic Theurge Stat: Int or Wis Lvl 9: Mystic Theurge Feat:Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) Lvl 12: Feat ??? Lvl 15: Feat ???
GreatSiron 04-01-07, 01:06 PM	I'd also recommend playing a specialist wizard who can use cleric spells to fill in the gaps. More spells per day is always a great idea. (One of the reasons I was attracted to the Mystic Theurge in the first place). However, what schools would it be okay for me to drop, that my cleric spells could replace?
MichaelAhlf 04-01-07, 02:57 PM	I don't suggest being a specialist wizard. You've got plenty of spells using both sides. If you drop two schools, you run the risk of losing out on some of the things that could be worthwhile. The power of a Mystic Theurge/Wizard isn't raw bang, it's versatility. Being a specialist wizard makes you less versatile.
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-07, 03:51 PM	I don't suggest being a specialist wizard. You've got plenty of spells using both sides. If you drop two schools, you run the risk of losing out on some of the things that could be worthwhile. The power of a Mystic Theurge/Wizard isn't raw bang, it's versatility. Being a specialist wizard makes you less versatile. But a lot of the 'essential' abjurations are duplicated and because your DCs are going to be horrid, enchantment isn't that valuable either. There's nothing quite so weak as a Mystic Theurge who can't cast more spells per day than a pure caster(this happens in the mid-levels if you don't specialize) The real power of a Mystic Theurge is it forces most players to concentrate on buff/utility. Which are the most powerful spells in the game. If you do that as a pure caster, you'll find yourself just as versatile and have more power to do it - you trade those two Practiced Spellcasters for 2 Domain Spontaneity or 2 Arcane Disciple feats.
GreatSiron 04-02-07, 12:20 AM	Well, I guess I'll have to ask a different question now: how about a sorcerer/cleric? Why? Well, somewhere in my thought process, I realized that I have never had a character with a CHA score higher than 10 (most of them have an 8). Now I could have made it so my CHA was 14 on a wiz/clr build, but that would be a waste. Also, though it has no bearing on the disscusion, somewhere in the thought process he became a she. (Never had a female character either). Are there any advatages to a Sorcerer/Cleric, or should I stick with wizard lvls?
magebeast 04-02-07, 01:25 AM	Well, I guess I'll have to ask a different question now: how about a sorcerer/cleric? Why? Well, somewhere in my thought process, I realized that I have never had a character with a CHA score higher than 10 (most of them have an 8). Now I could have made it so my CHA was 14 on a wiz/clr build, but that would be a waste. Also, though it has no bearing on the disscusion, somewhere in the thought process he became a she. (Never had a female character either). Are there any advatages to a Sorcerer/Cleric, or should I stick with wizard lvls? With a sorcerer, you have to take 4 levels of sorcerer before you can take MT. With a wizard/cleric build you get third level spells at 8. With a sorcerer/cleric build you get third level spells at 9. You're eternally a level of spells behind.
GreatSiron 04-02-07, 01:52 AM	With a sorcerer, you have to take 4 levels of sorcerer before you can take MT. With a wizard/cleric build you get third level spells at 8. With a sorcerer/cleric build you get third level spells at 9. You're eternally a level of spells behind. Good point. I'll just go wiz/clr and take a 14 CHA for flavor. It's not like I need STR anyway. (Or DEX really, since I'm all buff spells).
GreatSiron 04-02-07, 01:45 PM	But a lot of the 'essential' abjurations are duplicated and because your DCs are going to be horrid, enchantment isn't that valuable either. There's nothing quite so weak as a Mystic Theurge who can't cast more spells per day than a pure caster(this happens in the mid-levels if you don't specialize) The real power of a Mystic Theurge is it forces most players to concentrate on buff/utility. Which are the most powerful spells in the game. If you do that as a pure caster, you'll find yourself just as versatile and have more power to do it - you trade those two Practiced Spellcasters for 2 Domain Spontaneity or 2 Arcane Disciple feats. Yeah, but I already have a pure caster, a grey elf wizard with a current INT of 21. (He's lvl 5). I also don't want to play a pure cleric, as that's boring. (And no good prestige class for a cleric of Zagyg.)
Mommy was an Orc 04-02-07, 03:39 PM	Yeah, but I already have a pure caster, a grey elf wizard with a current INT of 21. (He's lvl 5). I also don't want to play a pure cleric, as that's boring. (And no good prestige class for a cleric of Zagyg.) My point isn't that you can necessarily duplicate the effect of a mystic theurge - it is that a mystic theurge is going to be swamped in effect by a pure caster unless he specializes. A Wizard 7 with Arcane Disciple(Community) and Arcane Disciple(Healing) who specializes in Divination(dropping Enchantment) will have more spells per day than a Mystic Theurge who doesn't specialize. And Abjuration/Enchantment are obvious choices because they're either mostly covered by your cleric spells(Abjuration) or you're horrid at them(Enchantment - down DC twice, once for your stat, twice for casting spells 1.5 levels lower than everyone else) - if you want, just specialize in Divination and get rid of Enchantment - you lose Heroism, which is a very nice spell, but it isn't an irreplacable spell for an MT.
GreatSiron 04-02-07, 05:28 PM	I've put together a (somewhat) final build: Suel Human STR 8 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 15 WIS 14 CHA 14 Cleric Domains: Chaos and Trickery Wizard Specializtion: Transmutation (Dropping Abjuration and Enchantment) Lvl 1: Cleric 1 Feats: Augment Healing, Improved Int (Retrained to Practiced Caster Wizard at 6th) Lvl 2: Wizard 1 Bonus Feat: Scribe Scroll Lvl 3: Cleric 2 Feat: Practiced Caster (Cleric) Lvl 4: Cleric 3 Stat: INT Lvl 5: Wizard 2 Lvl 6: Wizard 3 Feat: Craft Wonderous Item Lvl 7: Mystic Theurge 1 Lvl 8: Mystic Theurge 2 Stat: WIS Lvl 9: Mystic Theurge 3 Feat: Sacred Boost Lvl 10: Mystic Theurge 4 Lvl 11: Mystic Theurge 5 Lvl 12: Mystic Theurge 6 Feat: Extend Spell Stat: WIS Lvl 13: Mystic Theurge 7 Lvl 14: Mystic Theurge 8 Lvl 15: Mystic Theurge 9 Feat: Empower Spell
Britt 04-02-07, 05:45 PM	That's a nice build; I like it. Any reason for wizard at second level? I've always gone 3 cleric first to help offset my relative weakness during levels 4 to 6; people like having a cleric around :)
GreatSiron 04-02-07, 05:51 PM	That's a nice build; I like it. Any reason for wizard at second level? I've always gone 3 cleric first to help offset my relative weakness during levels 4 to 6; people like having a cleric around :) Scribe scroll and the additional 3 spells. (1 normal, 1 bonus, 1 specialized) Though I guess I could do straight cleric first, then start Wizard lvls at 4, after I have Practiced Caster (Cleric). I would have fewer spells, but they would be more effective.
Mommy was an Orc 04-02-07, 05:59 PM	That's a nice build; I like it. Any reason for wizard at second level? I've always gone 3 cleric first to help offset my relative weakness during levels 4 to 6; people like having a cleric around :) I prefer the Wizard at 2nd myself - lets you spread out the Cleric skills if you want a little bit and you end up at the exact same spot at 4th in any case. A lot stronger at 2nd, weaker at 3rd - but you can play down to 2nd at 3rd if you like.
Britt 04-02-07, 06:18 PM	Ahh, Scribe Scroll is a very good point and sells me on the Clr/Wiz/Clr/Clr approach.
boolean 04-02-07, 09:32 PM	Interesting. I would think you can't take practiced spellcaster without the spellcasting class but there's nothing in the rules saying you can't. It depends. The first line of Practiced Spellcaster is: "Choose a spellcasting class that you possess. Your spells cast from that class are more powerful." Some people consider that flavour text, with no binding rules authority, but it can be read that PS can only be taken with a class you already have. Which is another advantage to the Clr/Wiz/Clr/Clr approach. It allows you to take PS(Clr) at 1st then take PS(Wiz) at 3rd. Clr/Clr/Clr/Wiz would require taking PS(Wiz) at 6th. Generally speaking, higher level feat slots are more valuable than lower level ones.
Timlagor 04-03-07, 05:43 PM	Sacred Boost is HORRIBLE Otherwise all the key advice seems to have been mentioned. I think you're overbuying Cha but that's your prerogative.
MichaelAhlf 04-03-07, 06:44 PM	Sacred Boost is HORRIBLE Otherwise all the key advice seems to have been mentioned. I think you're overbuying Cha but that's your prerogative. I don't think you've played with that feat yet, Tim. If you're the solo Cleric in the party, then yes, it may not be all that hot. If you're not, if you're a theurge in the party with another cleric, or a druid, or anyone else who can cast healing spells or use wands, then it's great for resource management and for making the healing of the other guy more effective. Just have him give you warning and delay for your action, and poof, instant maximized healing for the cost of only one turn attempt, plus a mazimization to your own curing spell next round. I know of only one metamagic-ish feat that can affect multiple spells, and Sacred Boost is it.
Timlagor 04-04-07, 09:02 PM	Hmm.. IF you have multiple Clerics IF you need multiple healing spells in a round IF you have time to wait ...you can save one spell by spending a turn attempt. If you havemultple healers then the chances are that this isn'ta resource you are terribly concerned about. Actions are always valuable. It's the price of a Standard Action that I balk at -spells are much less valuable. You are right that I haven't seen it in play though... have you seen it at APL10+? (the Cleric is casting Heal almost as soon as he gets this Feat).
MichaelAhlf 04-05-07, 11:00 AM	Hmm.. IF you have multiple Clerics IF you need multiple healing spells in a round IF you have time to wait ...you can save one spell by spending a turn attempt. If you havemultple healers then the chances are that this isn'ta resource you are terribly concerned about. Actions are always valuable. It's the price of a Standard Action that I balk at -spells are much less valuable. You are right that I haven't seen it in play though... have you seen it at APL10+? (the Cleric is casting Heal almost as soon as he gets this Feat). If you're out of combat and doing after-combat healing... it saves a good number of spells (or wand charges) for later. If you're in need of a serious charge of healing on one guy, which is pretty likely when the BBEG is tearing your tank apart, a free Maximize to a Cure Critical Wounds sounds pretty appealing. If you don't like it when you get Heal at level 11? Retrain it. I still find it useful.
Mommy was an Orc 04-05-07, 11:31 AM	If you're out of combat and doing after-combat healing... it saves a good number of spells (or wand charges) for later. If you're in need of a serious charge of healing on one guy, which is pretty likely when the BBEG is tearing your tank apart, a free Maximize to a Cure Critical Wounds sounds pretty appealing. If you don't like it when you get Heal at level 11? Retrain it. I still find it useful. That doesn't really work out that way... Out of combat - Lesser Vigor heals 15 hp and is easy to Pearl back. Maximized CLW only heals 13. Unless combats are right on top of each other, this isn't usually a problem. In combat, I don't think you're appreciating just how much an action costs - Insiginia of Healing(with Augment Healing) used twice in two rounds about equals Maximized Cure Critical used on the 2nd round. 41 hp of healing compared to 42 at 10th. Except you're healing the entire party for 41 hp of damage each. Yes, you can take Augment Healing, but you're already taking 2 helpings of Practiced Spellcaster and Sacred Boost - that leaves CWI to 9th level which impacts your ability to Pearl back Lesser Vigor.