Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrystalBlue 01-20-07, 12:08 AM	I'm done looking at encounters that normal people walk over and cringing. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong or why things aren't working. Building my own characters is not helping. So I'm going to put this out there and hope I get a hit. These are my six characters, their stats and levels, and what I was going to do to them. Please, be as brutally honest and critical as possible. I want you to tear these builds down for everything you're worth so you can tell me, honestly, what I'm doing horribly wrong. I understand I've listed some of these already and I appologise if you have to comment on them twice. 1.) Remi Skyes, Human Cleric 8/Church Inquisitor 4 S:14 D:10 C:14 I:8 W:22 C:12 Feats: Skill Focus (Con), Extra Turning x 2, Metamagic (Max), DMM (Max) +2 Holy Adamantine Longsword, +1 Silver Spellstoring Longsword, +1 Ghost touch Longsword, Periapt +4, +1 Platemail, Sash of the Healer I wanted this character to be my main and become a great healing and casting cleric. So far, he's just been useless in every APL 10+ game he's walked into. People can hit harder, cast better, heal more, and generally make him useless. 2.) Rion Sianodell, Human Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Horizon Walker 3 S: 15 D:18 C:12 I:14 W:10 C:8 Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Manyshot +1 Mighty Composit Longbow I like this guy, and he's going Horizon Walker for the Dim Door. He's also got access to a griffon, so there will be nice fly action in 30 TU's. I'm taking the Manyshot to get Improved Rapid Shot and get rid of naughty rapid shot penalty. Not that that'll help my to hit, as it's only a 13/8/8 at full rapid shot right now... 3.) Yin, Wood Elf (was Grey Elf) Bard 4/Druid 3/Rogue 2/Arcane Hierophant 1 S:10 D:10 C:12 I:16 W:14 C:22 Feats: Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Practiced Spellcaster, Obtain Familiar, Versatile Performer Circlet of Persuassion, Cloak of Cha +4, +1 Shocking Frost Crossbow, Bracers of Armor +2, Pearl of Power II x 2 She was supposed to be my diplomat character...but I don't know where I went wrong. I've only got a +29 to my diplomacy roll, well below some level 3 or 4 characters I've seen. Next level, she'll be a Fochlucan Lyrist, but I don't see the point anymore. She's so watered down in everything that it'll take a miracle for her to get anywhere. 4.) Crystal Blue, Woodelf Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 1 S:14 D:19 C:12 I:14 W:8 C:8 Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Improved Weapon Familiarity Courtblade, +1 Thinblade, +1 Mitheral Breastplate He died today, and made me realize how useless he really is. :D With little strength, he does no damage. I know people here told me to take CoC with him...and I just might now. Hey...I freed up a feat and level now. I wanted Tempest...but it's looking impossible to get, plus it doesn't really do all that many good things. 5.) Hrug Xerlos, Greyelf Wizard 3/Shadow 1/Shadowcaster 1 S:6 D:14 C:10 I:21 W:8 C:12 Feats: Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) Nada I don't know about him...he feels like a lost cause. Getting access to Shadowcaster and the PrCs was awesome...but he's trapped in Red Hand of Doom right now. In a bad way. and I've had to take more evocation and blaster spells then actual illusion spells. See...everything keeps making their damn will saves. I was going for Nocturmancer, but I'm wondering if I should just forget it. My Cha is not that high, and that's what determines my Shadowcaster saves. 6.) Lia Braawm, Human Bard 1/Marshal 1 S:14 D:14 C:12 I:14 W:8 C:14 Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip Nada This is my Bard/Marshal/Paladin of Bahamut. Screwed, isn't he? Yup...not much to say about him. He wants to go Dragon Disciple at 6th. Yup...screwed.
jhorred 01-20-07, 12:44 AM	IMHO, it seems that you're spreading your characters too thin. Too many classes that provide flexibility at the cost of alot of effectiveness. (esp. Bard 4/Druid 3/Rogue 2/Arcane Hierophant 1) I tend toward single class characters, though not as important in fighter types, but spreading out over even a couple different caster classes tends to dilute the characters effectiveness. (I know someone can come up with something to disprove this, but I'm speaking generally. I'm not sure how to solve your problem though, I don't have any good advice. Well.... the shadowcaster (If I remember the class correctly) will have some tough times ahead as your shadowcaster gains strength, but I think that the character is fairly viable. Definately need to get a cloak to boost your Cha up some more to provide higher DCs, and need to be more choosy picking your targets than normal. (i.e. fighter types as opposed to casters.) The rapid shot for Rion should be 13/13/8 not 13/8/8........ I'm not sure why you're not having any luck with Remi as one of the guys I play with regularly has a very similiar build and he's the best cleric/divine caster character I've seen played about anywhere. You have feats to make you an awesome healer, though a maximized Flame Strike would be equally possible. Some spells to consider that would likely be very welcomed by your party would be Recitation and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. (Assuming that you're already having the very nice breakfast.) Looks like Crystal Blue is intended as a light infantry type. I've not had alot of experience playing one, as my lt inf type died at 2nd level to a crit. I think that lt inf will be one of the more challenging roles to play.
Mommy was an Orc 01-20-07, 01:22 AM	2.) Rion Sianodell, Human Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Horizon Walker 3 S: 15 D:18 C:12 I:14 W:10 C:8 Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Manyshot +1 Mighty Composit Longbow Archers tend to be a very difficult thing to play well - you need to do enough damage to be a credible threat or you're useless to a party. In this case, you're doing 1d8+3 damage per shot. By 8th level, your weapon should be a +1, +1d6 of something else, if not +2d6 of something else. Think about ways to get yourself an upgraded bow. 3.) Yin, Wood Elf (was Grey Elf) Bard 4/Druid 3/Rogue 2/Arcane Hierophant 1 S:10 D:10 C:12 I:16 W:14 C:22 Feats: Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Practiced Spellcaster, Obtain Familiar, Versatile Performer Circlet of Persuassion, Cloak of Cha +4, +1 Shocking Frost Crossbow, Bracers of Armor +2, Pearl of Power II x 2 Yup, you're kind of screwed - you sacrificed the build to get 1 level of Arcane Hierophant. FL builds work best as Bard 7/Rogue 2/Druid 1/Sublime Chord 1 or Druid 6/Bard 2/Rogue 2 - that way you're good at one form of casting. It still hurts until high level, but... 4.) Crystal Blue, Woodelf Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 1 S:14 D:19 C:12 I:14 W:8 C:8 Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Improved Weapon Familiarity Courtblade, +1 Thinblade, +1 Mitheral Breastplate He died today, and made me realize how useless he really is. :D With little strength, he does no damage. I know people here told me to take CoC with him...and I just might now. Hey...I freed up a feat and level now. I wanted Tempest...but it's looking impossible to get, plus it doesn't really do all that many good things. Okay, one thing I'd ask right off the top is why are you a Wood Elf with a 14 Str/14 Int - that means you spent 14 build points on it for something that a High Elf would have spent 12. I'm not sure that would have made the big difference, but you're missing the little things like that and it hurts. 5.) Hrug Xerlos, Greyelf Wizard 3/Shadow 1/Shadowcaster 1 S:6 D:14 C:10 I:21 W:8 C:12 Feats: Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) Nada You're a 5th level character in Red Hand of Doom who should be a primary caster, but isn't. That's going to hurt, quite badly. I don't know all the rules of Shadowcaster, but I'd get rid of all those Wizard levels ASAP. 6.) Lia Braawm, Human Bard 1/Marshal 1 S:14 D:14 C:12 I:14 W:8 C:14 Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip Nada This is my Bard/Marshal/Paladin of Bahamut. Screwed, isn't he? Yup...not much to say about him. He wants to go Dragon Disciple at 6th. Yup...screwed. Not too bad - take WF at 3rd and you should be able to get into Warchanter. Just don't go Paladin...
DragonKnight82 01-20-07, 02:37 AM	I have to agree that your levels do seem a bit too spread out, and some of your characters are following builds that, to me, make no sense for the stated intent of the build. The Diplomonkey AH is the primary example of this. Character 1: Your stated intent was to turn the character into a Healer/ Caster. The main problem I see here is that you've taken a class (Church Inquisitor) that does nothing but give you caster levels. What are you gaining from the class that helps the stated intent of your build? Not much. If you wanted to make a Healer/ Caster, you should have went Cleric 6/ Radiant Servant of Pelor 6. This would have allowed you to freely maximize any spell from the Healing Domain. Then you take Domain Spontaneity to allow you to cast any spell as a Healing Domain spell. You could still take DMM if you really wanted to, but you wouldn't really need it for Healing, just Flame Strike and other Damage spells. You could take Divine Spell Power and Augment Healing if you wanted to get your Healing spells even more bang. Character 2: Archers will generally be less powerful all- around than a Fighter type. You cant 2 hand your bow, you cant Power attack, your STR will always be limited by your Bow, and if you somehow get grappled, you're just plain out of the fight. Now, the Dim Door can negate that somewhat, but if you're Dim Dooring out of a Grapple, you're not shooting and doing damage. The good things about being an Archer are that you can hit flying targets with ease, you can usually stay out of the fight because you generally won't be as damaging as a primary fighter, and if you really wanted to get a Flying mount you could shoot from the air and be relatively assured of being unhurt. Really though, if you wanted to make a mount riding archer, you really should have went with a Druid so that your mount doesn't fall over at the drop of a hat. A Cleric can make a pretty effective Archer too, but the way you've got this guy set-up isn't really bad. This is probably one of, if not the, single most focused characters you've got. Character 3: This could have worked out, but I think that you shouldn't have taken any more than 1 level in Druid, and that's only to meet the minimum requirement for Lyrist. Lyrist is a class that I don't really like because it makes you spread out so much to get in it that by the time you do, it almost isn't worthwhile. If you wanted a Diplomonkey in the same Bard/ Lyrist vein, you really should have went with Marshal 1, then Druid 1, Bard 6, and then whatever you prefer for 2 levels to get Evasion, or you could take some other class entirely. Then take Exemplar and Fochlucan Lyrist. It would have let you max out diplomacy, given you free Skill Focus Diplo as a Marshall 1, and also effectively lets you double your CHA to Diplo and all other CHA skills by taking Motivate Charisma as your Aura, and then Exemplar would have given you another +4 to your Diplo. The only real problem with that build is that it has to spread out alot to get what you want out of it, but it would still be more focused than the build you're currently running. I would probably just go Marshall1/ Bard 9/ Exemplar 1/ Bard 4, or whatever else you want, like Sublime Chord. Character 4: The problem with this character is that it just doesn't have the oomph to get it done in a fight. If you wanted to have a light fighter, you could have went for Wildrunner. Take a few levels of Ranger if you really want to 2 wep fight. To get the maximum potential damage out of the character, you could have went for Barbarian and maybe a level or 2 of fighter for feats. You really only need 1 level of Barb for movement and Rage. Just take Extra Rage for more Rages in a day. At the start of the fight you Rage/ Scream. If you're 6th level in Wildrunner you can even Pounce with all your attacks plus the bite from Primal Scream and you're still a light fighter. You really should wear a Mithral Chain Shirt or Breastplate to take full advantage of your Dex and Speed with this build. Character 5: Taking a class with a primary stat of 12 for the class is just kinda silly. Past that, you're really too low level to have done much with the character. Character 6 I personally believe that the best use of a DD is to gain STR and CON bumps for a Barb, maybe with Wildrunner thrown in for kicks. Go for Bard 3 to gain the spellcasting reqs and 2 points of BAB, then take 1 Barb to gain Rage, then take 1 Pal if you have good CHA, or one FGHT if you don't or need a feat, which you might, then take 3 levels in Warchanter for the Inspire Recklessness ability. Then go for 2 levels of Wildrunner. You may only get 5 DD at this point, but thats still enough for 4 points of STR. This really isn't that great of a build, but it can throw some damage down if it needs to. With Inspire Recklessness going at 15th you could do, at a guess, between 40 or 50 points in one hit with a 2 handed weapon. Not really all that great, but not that bad for a DD build. You could drop some of the Bard and all of Chanter, then take Improved Unarmed and Improved Grapple and be a decently effective grappler with a grapple bonus in the thirties before Enlarge Person. Once again not really that great, but I'm tired and don't have my books in front of me, so the numbers above probably aren't nearly as good as they could be. Well, I hope that this has been of some sort of help to you.
UMiskatonic 01-20-07, 11:23 AM	Crystal, I'm not 100% sure that weak characters are your problem. It sounds like you play with some power-gamey people, who are giving themselves the best possible interpretation of the rules. Without a judge who has an even better grasp of the rules, they will tend to walk over mods. To keep up with them, YOU need to be a power-gamey person who does the same. Or, you can do what I sometimes do, and admit "Hey, choice X would be mechanically superior, but I choose not to do it" The way to do that, is to specialize. Remember, no LG character is ever alone. There's always three people there, usually five. You're better off when every player specializes in one thing they are really good at. Examples below:
UMiskatonic 01-20-07, 11:36 AM	Character One: "I wanted this character to be my main and become a great healing and casting cleric." Look at your gear. Name one item that you own that helps you heal, or cast. I don't see any. If you want to be a healer, you'll need pearls of power, scrolls to cure various ailments, and occassionally a good heal check. There's one things healers do NOT need, and that's a selection of expensive magic weapons. You mentioned that other people hit harder than you do. OF COURSE they hit harder than you do, you're the healer. That's not where you should be competing. To be a great spellcaster, you'll want meta-magic rods, things that raise your caster level. Also, a few scrolls for versatility, a magic wand, maybe a staff of a really good spell,... Spellcasters don't need expensive weapons either, they do damage with maximized spells. Your choice of prestige class isn't helping you heal or cast either, except for dispel attempts. MAKE USE of that bonus, it's key.
UMiskatonic 01-20-07, 11:46 AM	Character Two: the archer Overall, I think this character is fine. I'll assume you've got Rapid shot from ranger 2. Archers need two things. They need to hit, and they need to do damage. You've covered your defenses with the flying mount and dim door. You seem sorta broke for a 8th level guy. You've only got a +1 weapon? Really? Upgrade the bow, upgrade your arrows. Get other kinds of arrows, like blunt, adamantine, etc. That's really the only thing you should ever spend money on, unless you see bracers of archery. Buy those immediately. It turns out that at high levels, it pays off for archers to be stronger and less dexterous. There's no way that you would know that at first, everyone makes that mistake. You ARE remembering to add in your horizon walker bonuses when you fight, right? You went through and made a list of your terrain types, and the creatures that match, right? Those small bonuses add up, just like the +1 from higher ground bonus you can claim from the back of your griffon.
Mommy was an Orc 01-20-07, 01:13 PM	Character Two: the archer That's really the only thing you should ever spend money on, unless you see bracers of archery. Buy those immediately. I agree with everything said here, but this one - Bracers of archery are about the worst item in the DMG... You're giving up the bracers slot for 5K and a +1 to competence bonus to hit. At the point in time where they're cheap enough to drop 5K on, you shouldn't be missing all that much. The Greater Bracers cost 25K for +2 to hit, +1 damage. A +5 Bow to +6 is only 22K. And let's point out the other problem - by the time you can afford these, Bards can do Inspire Greatness, which gives a +2 to hit/damage competence bonus, which means the Bracers do nothing when that happens.
UMiskatonic 01-20-07, 02:54 PM	You know, I had no idea those didn't stack. Whoops. I'd re-evaluate the lesser bracers in that case, and spend cash elsewhere. If you can craft the bracers yourself, which a lot of archer/cleric builds can, I could still get behind that purchase, but it's a rainy day buy, not a priority.
CrystalBlue 01-21-07, 10:08 PM	For my cleric...I don't know what to do, really. Selling all those weapons...I know there's going to be a time I'm going to need one. And when it comes around, and I don't have that weapon, and we TPK...I'll just go crazy on something... My archer was waiting to get an Oathbow he got access to. But, I bet your'e gonna say, "Oathbows are crap. Get something mroe uber-powered." And I would...if I ever got access to anything. He has no adamantine access and no access to any weapon upgrades past +2. My lyrist is crap, I'll just forget her. My light-fighter does have mithral...but I REALLY didn't want Wildrunner. Because...everyone has Wildrunner now. It's Wildrunner/Barbarian/Chedder build. :P And I put 14 into Int to get my Combat Expertice...or how else did you propose I get that feat? And I know my shadowcaster's not going to be great with his magic. That's why I'm trying to find buff and personal mysteries, so I don't have to worry about a DC for monsters to save against. And...my Dragon D is going Dragon D full...cause I want him to. He'll suck, he'll die, and I'll get frustrated with it because it's not doing well. I understand that...but I get sick of making builds that everyone else does...
DragonKnight82 01-21-07, 10:55 PM	For my cleric...I don't know what to do, really. Selling all those weapons...I know there's going to be a time I'm going to need one. And when it comes around, and I don't have that weapon, and we TPK...I'll just go crazy on something... My archer was waiting to get an Oathbow he got access to. But, I bet your'e gonna say, "Oathbows are crap. Get something mroe uber-powered." And I would...if I ever got access to anything. He has no adamantine access and no access to any weapon upgrades past +2. My lyrist is crap, I'll just forget her. My light-fighter does have mithral...but I REALLY didn't want Wildrunner. Because...everyone has Wildrunner now. It's Wildrunner/Barbarian/Chedder build. :P And I put 14 into Int to get my Combat Expertice...or how else did you propose I get that feat? And I know my shadowcaster's not going to be great with his magic. That's why I'm trying to find buff and personal mysteries, so I don't have to worry about a DC for monsters to save against. And...my Dragon D is going Dragon D full...cause I want him to. He'll suck, he'll die, and I'll get frustrated with it because it's not doing well. I understand that...but I get sick of making builds that everyone else does... Not trying to be an ***, but if you're not going to take the advice people give you, whats the point of even asking? Yes, alot of the things that were suggested in this thread were cheesy, and yes they are used alot, but that's because the builds in question work. Thats how people walk over encounters. If you're not prepared to be cheesy and maybe, at times, use a common build, then, IMO, you should be prepared for a life of character mediocrity. There's only so many classes, feats, spells and etc in the game to make builds that are unique and still maintain a high power level. Like I said earlier, I'm not trying to be an ***, just trying to help. :)
Mommy was an Orc 01-21-07, 11:45 PM	For my cleric...I don't know what to do, really. Selling all those weapons...I know there's going to be a time I'm going to need one. And when it comes around, and I don't have that weapon, and we TPK...I'll just go crazy on something... That's the classic gambler's syndrome. You gambled significant gold that your weapon choices would be useful. Rather than admit that it was a bad choice, you double-downed, picking yet another weapon. My light-fighter does have mithral...but I REALLY didn't want Wildrunner. Because...everyone has Wildrunner now. It's Wildrunner/Barbarian/Chedder build. :P And I put 14 into Int to get my Combat Expertice...or how else did you propose I get that feat? You spent 2 precious build points on something that has no mechanical or likely roleplaying impact. If you're a high elf, you end up with exactly the same stats you have right now, but you have 2 more points to put somewhere on your stats. Maybe you have a 20 Dex right now. And I know my shadowcaster's not going to be great with his magic. That's why I'm trying to find buff and personal mysteries, so I don't have to worry about a DC for monsters to save against. And...my Dragon D is going Dragon D full...cause I want him to. He'll suck, he'll die, and I'll get frustrated with it because it's not doing well. I understand that...but I get sick of making builds that everyone else does... Look, the reason you do a build is that you intend to gain some sort of advantage either short-term or long-term. And you have to examine whether or not the sacrifices you'll make are worth it. Based on you realizing that your builds aren't doing well, you're saying you thought the sacrifices would be less, but they weren't. I think something that you're saying here is that you're making builds that are too complex and the results of doing that are that you're feeling like that you're not contributing effectively enough. You should really have two options here: Listen to what people are telling you to do in order to mechanically benefit your character. There are ways to fix certain things. Dial back the complexity of your builds. Make 'em simpler. When you see something cool, ask yourself when do you expect this to pay off. And avoid dual-caster builds like the plague. FL, Arcane Hierophant, Mystic Theurge, Shadow Theurge(or whatever they call it)
UMiskatonic 01-22-07, 01:10 AM	I'm done looking at encounters that normal people walk over and cringing. [/I] You're going to have to decide. Would you rather: a) walk over encounters with optimized power b) have distinct builds that are different from other peoples I think it's going to be hard for you to do both.
UMiskatonic 01-22-07, 01:13 AM	Personally, I really like bard/paladin/dragon disciple. With 10 levels of dragon disciple. I see no reason why this couldn't be an effective character. You'll be a little low on bab, compared with a straight fighter. Bard song and strength bonuses should turn that right back around. Tripping is an effective combat, especially with the marshal aura that aids tripping. Plus good people skills, a handful of nifty abilities, and good saves. What's not to like?
UMiskatonic 01-22-07, 01:21 AM	For my cleric...I don't know what to do, really. Selling all those weapons...I know there's going to be a time I'm going to need one. And when it comes around, and I don't have that weapon, and we TPK...I'll just go crazy on something... You know, if you have that weapon, you'll still TPK. What's your best shot with the adamantine longsword, 27 damage? Come on, that's not enough for APL 14 and you know it. You don't have Power Attack, or fighter BAB, or anything that would allow to turn the tide of battle in one swing. Your AC is subpar for melee, and so are your hit points. Oh, wait, you could always hit someone with a maximized bolt of glory for 14d12, which would be 168 damage. CAST SPELLS, THAT'S WHAT SPELLCASTERS DO!!! If you reall horrible about selling something, get rid of the ghost touch weapon. If you see ghosts, just turn them. Or hit them with a maximized heal spell (which damages undead). That should ruin their day.
CrystalBlue 01-22-07, 09:09 AM	I would take some of these suggestions, but half of them are addressing things that I've already done. I'm not asking for help, really. Well...I am. I need serious help. But the main thing is, I want to know what everyone's opinions are on what I did with my characters. That's why I told you to tear them down. I'm not trying to be difficult...but I guess I just get a little defensive and try to justify my actions and choices when someone tells me something. Because, in all honesty, I think every single one of these characters are effective and fun to play. But as I can see everytime I play, they are not up to par with what LG expects of their PC's...and that really disapoints me. I know I can do better...I just don't know if I'll have fun with it. Well...here's more explinations. Comment on them if you want...or don't. But to warn you...this is going to get a bit harsh, bitter, and abrassive. So if it does...don't take it personally. I'm not mad at you...I'm mad at my characters... My cleric would be taking a huge hit to gold to sell off his three swords. One of them, I spent a fortune on. I waited around 20 AR's to get that thing, and now I'm being told to ditch it? And to turn to...what? Turning and casting? Let me give you a primer on casting Bolt of Glory. I get one. Just one. And it's a touch attack. Ranged touch attack. Hence the name Bolt. So how do you expect a cleric with only +8 BAB and no dex to hit something that, at APL 12, is having a touch AC of +16. And is in melee combat. That means, to hit, I have to make a 12 or better on the die. Sure, I could cast recitation. That's a +3. Maybe if I buff with something else, I could get a +4 to hit. That's still having to hit an 8, minimum. That's a round wasted, and then 4 turn attempts and my 6th level domain spell all to TRY to do 15d12 points of damage...that the things going to resist somehow anyways. (see...told you it'd get abbrasive... :blush:) Or...I could be helpful and hand out a valuable weapon to the fighter that didn't have enough money, or access, to ghost touch, holy, or adamantine. Because, for the record, my 5 characters, in around 200+ ARs, have gotten a whole 3 accesses to adamantine (one of which was not adventure). So I know it's uber-rare. Also, I've never got access to prayer beads, only gotten low access to pearls of power (which aren't gonna help me much if they're level one), and I barely got access to my +4 periapt. The issue about my cleric isn't it's items and spending. It's my build. Because a character isn't made by the magic items and equipment they carry. It's the character. Else, we'd all be running around at level 1 taking on demons and undead with our +10 weapons and armor, books of health and intellect. Maybe my cleric's not doing as well as others with his equipment. But that shouldn't be such a huge enough gap to be left behind by every other cleric... *pants and sighs* Sorry...I know I'm stupid and can't play D&D worth beans. That's why I need help. But that is how I really feel. Tell me it's wrong to think that way and I'll stop.
CrystalBlue 01-22-07, 09:26 AM	Ok...I'm just gonna shut up now. I'm frustrated and tired and I'm just ranting to vent. I can't do well in this game and I just should stop trying...because it's obvious that I'll never make a build or character that I'll enjoy and that'll be effective. Sorry about this...just forget this thread, please.
UMiskatonic 01-22-07, 10:42 AM	Crystal Blue, you don't need to beat yourself up like that. You have characters that are fun to play. You said that yourself. That's what the game is for, fun. If you want advice on how to do things more optimally, then we're here to help you. If you are upset that your characters are not working out as planned, we might be able to see things that you don't. -------------------------------------------------------------- You -really- only have one problem, and it's common to most of your characters. It's a fairly common problem overall, and it is a big factor in why many players prefer to avoid high APL games. You don't match. You are playing one character, and you have built another. I did this with my first character, and couldn't figure out why my wiz3/rog3/rng1 got whipped in melee so often. I wanted to play a nimble, mobile swordswoman, and had a wizard instead. Rebuilding into a rogue/ranger at 3.5 conversion was a HUGE success. You need to sit down, think about what you want each character to do well, and strip away everything that doesn't fit. ------------------------------------------------------------ Example: the cleric I think you really want to be the guy behind the scenes. You want to enable everyone else to do their thing. That's why you bought weapons for other people. Roll with that. Take a craft feat. Provide EVERYTHING for your other party members. Hand out potions, buff spells, etc. Try this, for one mod: Do no damage whatsoever. Just support everyone else. Remind yourself, that whenever the barbarian power attack for 100+ in a round, that it's your stalwart pact keeping him safe. It's your heroes' feast making him immune to poison and fear, etc. You might like it. --------------------------------------------------------- We're recommending selling equipment because its needed to meet your stated purpose of being a spellcaster. If we could recommend changing feats, prestige classes, etc, we would, but that's not legal. The only other think I can suggest is that you hope for a rebuild. ----------------------------------------------------------- Good luck, UM
CrystalBlue 01-22-07, 12:41 PM	With my cleric, I was actually only planning on full cleric. He wasn't going to pick up any PrC. I just happened to get access to Church Inquisitor and I thought "Hey...it's not like it's going to hurt my character at all". It still has full progression, the BAB and saves were the same, as well as the skill points. And I do admit, at the beginning, I was trying for a combat cleric. But I realised soon that it wasn't going to be possible. And I really do take time to look over my options with these builds. I try to make them as effective as I can. Like my dex fighter. I had him up in combat in the mod that he died. He was facing multiple power-attacking bad guys. So, I was going to full-on combat expertice and hold them off while people picked them off at a distance (I was a level 6 in an APL 4 with only 3 other people, one of which was a skill rogue). Not only that, but the enemy had spell casters as well that tore through all of us. Granted, that's not what I died on...but we WERE going to die. I was just about to run before the scripted combat took place that got me killed. ^.^ But in that situation, I had to shift from being AC to being the damage dealer. And I wasn't doing any damage. So that's why it wasn't working. And that's why I was getting very frustrated. I just have no real desire to raise the character now, because he's still going to suck when I do. I can't go Tempest anymore, because it's not going to help my build. But I just think going Wildrunner's going to turn me into what I despise about this game.
UMiskatonic 01-22-07, 01:24 PM	Death is not such a big deal, and it's not an indication of failure on your part. My first death, I was playing my rogue/ranger. Great initiative, great spot checks. I did horribly on both. Party got ambushed, creamed with a cone of cold. Then, I watched as the rest of the party fell back to a more defensive position. Come the monster's turn, I'm the only person in the room, and I'm still flat-footed. I didn't last long. I've had five other deaths since then among my characters, with one character permanently removed from the campaign. Does that make me a bad player? I don't think it does. Powerful characters get killed. That's how it rolls. If I knew I would always win, I'd stop playing. ---------------------------------------------- Was it your fault you got killed? Or was it the fact that you only had four people? Add in a power-attacking barbarian of your own, and a wizard. What would the fight look like then?
CrystalBlue 01-22-07, 01:40 PM	It was a little unfair for the group...and I think the DM should have toned down on the tactics, or at least pulled one of the spell casters. But, I don't know. I was still standing after 5 rounds and I had taken out both of the spell casters, but I was half HP and had a Ray of Enfeeblement on me. I had a lot of strikes going against me. I just always see these other people and groups where this kind of things NEVER happens to them. They always have the right people, the right spells, the right moves. And maybe I need to study and do more tactics-based practice...but I don't know how to do that.
Japangirl 01-22-07, 02:36 PM	It was a little unfair for the group...and I think the DM should have toned down on the tactics, or at least pulled one of the spell casters. But, I don't know. I was still standing after 5 rounds and I had taken out both of the spell casters, but I was half HP and had a Ray of Enfeeblement on me. I had a lot of strikes going against me. I just always see these other people and groups where this kind of things NEVER happens to them. They always have the right people, the right spells, the right moves. And maybe I need to study and do more tactics-based practice...but I don't know how to do that. Or they just talk about the times they had the right people, the right spells, and the right moves. I consider myself an above-average player (but then again, don't we all?) and I've been in way more situations like yours that we eked out a win instead of walking all over the combat. My rogue has gone negative more times than I'd care to count, been grappled by things I have no chance of escaping, watched helplessly as the vampire tore through her party, etc, etc. I play with a pretty strong table, except for the lack of in-combat healing. We generally roll with a combat rogue (I suck at skills), ranger/archer, druid/tank, evoker wizard, and 1-2 random others. We do ridiculous amounts of damage against our most common enemies (undead and demons) but tend to choke against elementals, animals, plants, and things with AC 35+, especially if they are neutral instead of evil. My 6 wizard is pretty strong, focusing on battlefield control and debuffing, but she cannot carry an APL 4 table by herself either. Playing a 6 at APL 4 isn't playing down, it's playing at APL, so your expectations to carry the table are, well, expecting too much of yourself and your character. Especially since you couldn't fulfill your primary role and had to shift into a secondary one that you simply hadn't built for and weren't expecting to have to fill. I agree with UMiskatonic, if you are willing to be a little behind the power curve to play a fun and unique character, more power to you. And if you see the fighter splat a spectre-thing with your ghost-touched silver sword, you can claim at least half the credit for the party walking over that encounter. Not only did you provide the sword, the fact that you spent the money on it means the fighter spent his/her money on something else that makes him/her more effective in combats in general, so it's a double benefit to the fighter. And recitation on the cleric? It doesn't just help you. It gives +2 on attacks, damage, and saves (I think) to everyone and +3 to worshippers of your deity. So casting it doesn't just help your Bolt of Glory hit, it helps the fighter and the barbarian and the rogue and the archer hit too. It certainly isn't a wasted round. Having the effects of a Heroes Feast, Recitation, Prayer, Bless (I know some overlap, don't remember which ones though) are huge contributions to a party that you may not realize you are making. Your cleric is not ineffective, it just doesn't do direct damage. So what? If you make other people better at what they do, that is contributing a lot to a party and thus makes you effective.
UMiskatonic 01-22-07, 02:55 PM	I'm proud to say I'm in the 'eked out a win' category too. At one of our APL 12 games, we ran into a group of three undead who were so powerful, we had to teleport away. We came back the next day, ready to face them, and managed to take out -one- of them before we teleported away a 2nd time. On the third day, things went more in our favor, and we just barely beat them. We were so drained and weak that we got to the next encounter after yet another day of teleporting back to Greyhawk City for repair.
CrystalBlue 01-22-07, 03:45 PM	I don't want you to take this the wrong way. I really do want help. But, as you can see, I've run five characters and none of them match up with what is normally at my table. I've not been able to impress anyone with my builds other then to make people laugh. And I'm not joking about that... I love playing character concept. And I try to tailor the concept so it works with a group of classes, skills, PrCs, and such. But it always falls apart when applied to actual game play. The feats don't match up, I can't roll well enough to hit anything, and I just generally end up failing at everything I do. It makes me frustrated enough to just drop D&D completely. I can plainly see that I'm not as good as I should be for this game...and people say it to my face some times at conventions, which hurts.
kenobi65 01-22-07, 03:55 PM	It makes me frustrated enough to just drop D&D completely. I can plainly see that I'm not as good as I should be for this game...and people say it to my face some times at conventions, which hurts. The issue seems to be that what you enjoy out of D&D isn't character optimization or power-gaming. And, you know what? There really isn't anything wrong with that. The problem shows up when you decide that you want / need to "compete" with the powergamers. And, honestly, LG has a fair number of them (and, note that I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that play style, either). It feels to me like you need to spend more time playing with folks who aren't "all about the build."
Japangirl 01-22-07, 03:57 PM	I don't want you to take this the wrong way. I really do want help. But, as you can see, I've run five characters and none of them match up with what is normally at my table. I've not been able to impress anyone with my builds other then to make people laugh. And I'm not joking about that... I love playing character concept. And I try to tailor the concept so it works with a group of classes, skills, PrCs, and such. But it always falls apart when applied to actual game play. The feats don't match up, I can't roll well enough to hit anything, and I just generally end up failing at everything I do. It makes me frustrated enough to just drop D&D completely. I can plainly see that I'm not as good as I should be for this game...and people say it to my face some times at conventions, which hurts. Your cleric build isn't bad though! Are you sure that you aren't just playing the character to its full potential? It sounds like you have been trying to hit things/do damage. Try buffing your party instead, and be satisfied to not get the spotlight very often. A full caster-level cleric, unarmored and unarmed, stripped of all magic items and feats, is still a foe to be reckoned with or an ally to be glad to have. Are you sure the reason your party is walking all over things isn't that you've buffed them all to heck and back? After this, I am done in this thread. I know you want help, and people have been offering optimization help. If you just want to play fun characters, play fun characters and don't worry if you aren't the most combat-effective build ever. None of them are completely useless, so they won't drag a party down. If you want reassurance that you aren't an awful player, I can't give it as I've never played with you. That is a self-confidence issue that none of us here on the boards can help you with.
CrystalBlue 01-22-07, 04:21 PM	Sorry...I guess I'm just annoying people now, huh? I'd like some help on tactics...but I don't want to get help from the people that I game with. Because I know they'll just turn their nose up and think they're too good to do that. They just seem way too...uppity about gaming. If I'm not good enough to play on their level...then I should just get out of their game.
Lomiat 01-22-07, 05:24 PM	Sorry...I guess I'm just annoying people now, huh? I'd like some help on tactics...but I don't want to get help from the people that I game with. Because I know they'll just turn their nose up and think they're too good to do that. They just seem way too...uppity about gaming. If I'm not good enough to play on their level...then I should just get out of their game. Suggested tactics: Cleric - Buff your party before combat and in combat. Handing out all-day buffs that make you useful before initiative ever comes around is a good way to make certain you have an impact. Depending on the combat, Dispel some stuff. Even a lowly Dispel Magic is pretty good with the Inquision domain. Outside of combat, heal your party. (In combat healing should consist primarily of Delay Death.) Remember, also, to use your Inquisitor abilities to try to pierce Illusions. Archer - Use Ride to get the mount to take you within 30 ft for Point-Blank, then full volley with rapid shot. Every time. Bard mutt - Have fun roleplaying. Play this character in mods where the blurb says "investigative." In combat, use the Bard song first round. After that? I dunno, ready to Silence spellcasters or something. Goof around. Have fun. Make it a FUN character for people to play with at the same table. Don't worry about effective. Wizard type - Prepare your stuff for the foes your best able to defeat -- sentient foes who can be fooled by illusions. You'll have Glitterdust and Phantasmal Assailant. Don't blast; you're under-level to be effective in that role. Take Grease and Color Spray. Even if a creature is above the HD limit for multiple bad things from Color Spray, it can still fail its Will save and be stunned. Plan your spells to get multiple foes (except Phantasmal Assailant), and expect some to make their saves. But if you stun 3 out of 5 baddies in a round, that's still 3 of them that don't swing back. They drop their weapons, and their ACs go down by 2 for a round. Meanwhile, I have no idea what the Shadowcaster stuff does for you, but I know you've got Hide in Plain Sight. If you invest ranks into Hide and Move Silently, you can become your party's scout. Use Hide in Plain Sight to get close to bad guys, find out what type and how many of them there are. Use the Message spell to relate things to your friends who can stay a safe distance back. Bard / Marshal - Sing in the first round of every combat, use Inspirational Boost before singing, and make everyone better. Once you've sung, you've pretty much done your thing. Move to flank bad guys. You exist to make others better. Remind other players that you're giving them +2 to hit and damage (or +4 to hit if you're flanking somebody for them).
clannagh 01-22-07, 06:23 PM	Sorry...I guess I'm just annoying people now, huh? I'd like some help on tactics...but I don't want to get help from the people that I game with. Because I know they'll just turn their nose up and think they're too good to do that. They just seem way too...uppity about gaming. If I'm not good enough to play on their level...then I should just get out of their game. Firstly .. there is nothing wrong with an underpowered character if its not dangerous to the group. you need to ignore power gamers .. they basically have three classes of character .. 1) less powerful than their builds .. these are "pathetic and useless" 2) ones they had an input on building .. these are "well balanced but powerful" 3) more powerful then their builds .. these are "overpowered, cheesy and use feats that should be restricted" (even if the individual would have used the feats himself he/she had thought of it first) in short .. unless you let them build your character for you you cant really win competing with a power builder :) Personally my characters are all strong in some areas and badly flawed in others (dex 24 by level 8 archer with no spot? fighter/cleric with wisdom 10, a paladin gnome that does 2D6 damage AFTER the double lance bonus) but I kinda like them that way. Now .. this is the main point .. a lot of the flaws in my characters were stuffups I have learnt from. I keep playing those characters because I like them .. flaws and all .. but when I build new characters I will not make the same mistakes again. My suggestion .. make your current PC's as effective as you can and enjoy playing them. Learn from the mistakes and eventually start new PC's that improve on the first lot.
Camden 01-22-07, 08:34 PM	I'm done looking at encounters that normal people walk over and cringing. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong or why things aren't working. Building my own characters is not helping. So I'm going to put this out there and hope I get a hit. These are my six characters, their stats and levels, and what I was going to do to them. Please, be as brutally honest and critical as possible. I want you to tear these builds down for everything you're worth so you can tell me, honestly, what I'm doing horribly wrong. I understand I've listed some of these already and I appologise if you have to comment on them twice. 1.) Remi Skyes, Human Cleric 8/Church Inquisitor 4 S:14 D:10 C:14 I:8 W:22 C:12 Feats: Skill Focus (Con), Extra Turning x 2, Metamagic (Max), DMM (Max) +2 Holy Adamantine Longsword, +1 Silver Spellstoring Longsword, +1 Ghost touch Longsword, Periapt +4, +1 Platemail, Sash of the Healer I wanted this character to be my main and become a great healing and casting cleric. So far, he's just been useless in every APL 10+ game he's walked into. People can hit harder, cast better, heal more, and generally make him useless. 2.) Rion Sianodell, Human Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Horizon Walker 3 S: 15 D:18 C:12 I:14 W:10 C:8 Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Manyshot +1 Mighty Composit Longbow I like this guy, and he's going Horizon Walker for the Dim Door. He's also got access to a griffon, so there will be nice fly action in 30 TU's. I'm taking the Manyshot to get Improved Rapid Shot and get rid of naughty rapid shot penalty. Not that that'll help my to hit, as it's only a 13/8/8 at full rapid shot right now... I'll comment on the 2 that I sort of know more about... Cleric : As said before with your cleric, blow stuff up (maximised), then Heal (maximised), you don't need that many weapons when you hit the higher APL's as thats what the fighters do. Personally I'd drop Skill Focus and stick in DSP, especialy for those greater dispels with your +4 from Inquistion. As with any spellcaster it comes down spell selection and choices. The main choice's I find are "Who needs healing and roughly how much" "How do I get this fight back under our control ?". Archer: Take Quick Draw(as well as Imp Rapid). Get some Boots of Speed. Upgrade 1 bow and make it your Primary weapon. Seriously. Thats it for this build. The difference you will see on a table will be fairly drastic. The issue with Archers is getting the damage down quickly. With QDraw you get a full attack in where other fighter types have to move/charge. You'll only do damage via multiple attacks (like a 2weapon fighter) so DR is a killer. Buy the different arrows you can for DR, and if one "Doesn't seem to hurt as much as it should" swap to the next type. Also 'walk your attacks'. You have the option of firing multiple opponents, so roll each attack seperately. With Qdraw and the boots You'll go to 14/14/14/8, up your bow to +2Magic, stick an element on it, and you'll be fine. It's all about getting the firepower down asap (because you can't Power Attack to make up for only 1 hit) At your current level remember that you can ready your Manyshot. Go into Caster Lockdown mode, move close and as soon as they wave their hands, Shoot them, your doing slightly less damage (less atatcks) but 2 arrows in a caster takes a checks. When you get the BAB take Imp Precise Shot. Cover is a killer for Archers. Personally I wouldn't of taken Horizon walker, I would of stayed either Pure Ranger (Flying Animal Companion), or put a smattering of fighter into the mix. If the Anti-Grapple is a worry the get a Cape of the Mounteback, or just take the grapple, attempt to pin. If your rolling 4 dice your bound to roll high and them low at some point, besides they have no Dex in a grapple meaning the PA BDF should take it out alot quicker. Anyue why should you be getting hit, your an Archer, stay near the back ;) And never, ever, ever fly in VTF or Ekbir, all Giants have Potions of Fly and really like to charge flying Archers :(
clannagh 01-22-07, 08:46 PM	2.) Rion Sianodell, Human Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Horizon Walker 3 S: 15 D:18 C:12 I:14 W:10 C:8 Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Manyshot +1 Mighty Composit Longbow .[/I] If you are serious about the flying mount as a long term prospect have a good long look at Crag top Archer from RoS.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-22-07, 08:53 PM	1.) Remi Skyes, Human Cleric 8/Church Inquisitor 4 S:14 D:10 C:14 I:8 W:22 C:12 Feats: Skill Focus (Con), Extra Turning x 2, Metamagic (Max), DMM (Max) +2 Holy Adamantine Longsword, +1 Silver Spellstoring Longsword, +1 Ghost touch Longsword, Periapt +4, +1 Platemail, Sash of the Healer I wanted this character to be my main and become a great healing and casting cleric. So far, he's just been useless in every APL 10+ game he's walked into. People can hit harder, cast better, heal more, and generally make him useless. If you want him to be a great healing/casting cleric, why is he carrying around a golf bag worth of expensive weapons? The Spellstoring I can see, but the rest - unless you're just going "Here you go" for the main fighter - is a waste of the cash that could have supported other purchases. If others can "heal better", here's a few suggestions for future reference (and stuff you might want to pick up): #1 - You can cast metamagicked Cure spells on the fly, as a spontaneous caster. #2 - Empower has more potential than Maximize, especially on things like Cure spells that get large numeric bonuses that also become X1.5 as per the FAQ. #3 - Go over your spell list again. If you're memorizing combat buff spells for yourself, you're not a healer, you're a fighting Cleric. #4 - Don't be useless, work out with the other casters before mod and coordinate your spell selection to augment theirs and vice versa. 2.) Rion Sianodell, Human Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Horizon Walker 3 S: 15 D:18 C:12 I:14 W:10 C:8 Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Manyshot +1 Mighty Composit Longbow I like this guy, and he's going Horizon Walker for the Dim Door. He's also got access to a griffon, so there will be nice fly action in 30 TU's. I'm taking the Manyshot to get Improved Rapid Shot and get rid of naughty rapid shot penalty. Not that that'll help my to hit, as it's only a 13/8/8 at full rapid shot right now... #1 - a full Rapid Shot ought to be 13/13/8, reread the feat. #2 - As an 8th level, 13/13/8 isn't bad. #3 - Look into getting something, like energy or holy, added to that bow! 3.) Yin, Wood Elf (was Grey Elf) Bard 4/Druid 3/Rogue 2/Arcane Hierophant 1 S:10 D:10 C:12 I:16 W:14 C:22 Feats: Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Practiced Spellcaster, Obtain Familiar, Versatile Performer Circlet of Persuassion, Cloak of Cha +4, +1 Shocking Frost Crossbow, Bracers of Armor +2, Pearl of Power II x 2 She was supposed to be my diplomat character...but I don't know where I went wrong. I've only got a +29 to my diplomacy roll, well below some level 3 or 4 characters I've seen. Next level, she'll be a Fochlucan Lyrist, but I don't see the point anymore. She's so watered down in everything that it'll take a miracle for her to get anywhere. #1 - +29 and you're complaining? Yikes. Don't be envious of someone else's min-max, you're crazy enough as-is. #2 - Spend a lot of time going over the low-level spells, what with your Arcane Hierophant build. Swift spells that can help in combat will aid you significantly. #3 - As for the rest, I'm sorry to say, you're spread very thin with your feats :( That and the fact that Bards are already stunted in the spell department makes this a build that I'd look oddly at almost no matter what. 4.) Crystal Blue, Woodelf Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 1 S:14 D:19 C:12 I:14 W:8 C:8 Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Improved Weapon Familiarity Courtblade, +1 Thinblade, +1 Mitheral Breastplate He died today, and made me realize how useless he really is. :D With little strength, he does no damage. I know people here told me to take CoC with him...and I just might now. Hey...I freed up a feat and level now. I wanted Tempest...but it's looking impossible to get, plus it doesn't really do all that many good things. Ranger/Fighter/Swashbuckler with that build? I'd consider Weapon Finesse for starters. You're a flanking machine, you're just not built that far for the rest of it, so spend your time using Combat Expertise quite a bit and using the Aid Another action to give the BDF a +2 on his attack rolls. With Flank, that makes a +4, which equates to quite a bit of power attacking he can do. 5.) Hrug Xerlos, Greyelf Wizard 3/Shadow 1/Shadowcaster 1 S:6 D:14 C:10 I:21 W:8 C:12 Feats: Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) Nada I don't know about him...he feels like a lost cause. Getting access to Shadowcaster and the PrCs was awesome...but he's trapped in Red Hand of Doom right now. In a bad way. and I've had to take more evocation and blaster spells then actual illusion spells. See...everything keeps making their damn will saves. I was going for Nocturmancer, but I'm wondering if I should just forget it. My Cha is not that high, and that's what determines my Shadowcaster saves. Yeah, you've about summed up that one. I can't really add anything, sorry. 6.) Lia Braawm, Human Bard 1/Marshal 1 S:14 D:14 C:12 I:14 W:8 C:14 Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip Nada This is my Bard/Marshal/Paladin of Bahamut. Screwed, isn't he? Yup...not much to say about him. He wants to go Dragon Disciple at 6th. Yup...screwed.[/quote] I don't see anything screwed about this. Since you're a Bard 1, just make sure you've got the rest of the knowledge, and take Fighter levels (perhaps a Sorceror level at 5th, to fill out the rest of your Knowledge:Arcana requirement). Grab spells like Critical Strike or other 1st-level swift spells to help you fight, or self-buffs like Shield or Fist of Stone; stuff that you can cast over again is good, as a Dragon Disciple you're going to have a ton of 1st-level spell slots to work with but you never improve caster level. You can get into Dragon Disciple no problem.
clannagh 01-22-07, 08:59 PM	Ranger/Fighter/Swashbuckler with that build? I'd consider Weapon Finesse for starters. You're a flanking machine, you're just not built that far for the rest of it, so spend your time using Combat Expertise quite a bit and using the Aid Another action to give the BDF a +2 on his attack rolls. With Flank, that makes a +4, which equates to quite a bit of power attacking he can do. Swashie gives finesse at level 1 for free so they have it. They have only listed feats they have selected.
copper_wyrmling 01-24-07, 09:44 AM	But the main thing is, I want to know what everyone's opinions are on what I did with my characters. That's why I told you to tear them down. Okay, you asked... this is my reaction purely from a mechanical perspective. Cleric: I don't see anything wrong with the build. Honestly. Either of my high-level PCs would be very happy to have him on the table. Comments on items / tactics are below... Archer: Looks fine, but you need a bow upgrade, and make sure the party arcanist knows that you can benefit from Haste. Bards are your friends. Consider the Woodland Archer feat. Bump Strength when you get the chance, buy a Str-booster, and look for a high-Str bow. Nothing wrong with the build, but you need to either tweak items a bit, or ask very nicely if the party casters can help you make up the shortfall (flame arrow lasts 10 minutes / level, greater magic weapon lasts hours / level, haste is still a fairly common buff at L9). Diplomancer: This is a type of PC that I personally dislike. I'd play on a table with her, but I'd probably try to make sure the group was strong enough to take on the mod without her contribution. She's a L10 character who can't contribute in melee and whose best spells are second level: this is not a good thing. (Disclaimer: I get teased by some of my friends who play D&D for my insistence on Never, Ever Losing Caster Levels. I won't even play a standard dual-caster like a mystic theurge...) Swashbuckler: My first reaction is to wince, because I had some bad experiences at low level playing on tables where none of the "fighters" could do meaningful damage. They had good AC, but that just meant the bad guys chased the squishies who were actually hurting them... "Nobody can hit me" is not actually a party role unless you have some way to keep them from just hitting others instead. However, I don't think you've doomed yourself to low-damage: champion of corellon, or just taking power attack (since you're using your high Dex bonus to hit with, and you have a courtblade) would both help. And yeah, just because you died when playing down two levels doesn't make the PC weak: my dervish is probably one of my more powergamed PCs, and he nearly died in his last APL 4 mod (as a L6 character), because we had a four-person party with no healing and no arcane, and most of the others were at bad points in their builds. Wizard: I don't know enough about shadowcaster. Bard/Marshal: looks fine at the moment, just try to avoid losing too much more BAB. Other people have made good recommendations. Turning and casting? Let me give you a primer on casting Bolt of Glory. I get one. Just one. Um... you do realize that it's a general cleric spell, not just a domain spell, right? Admittedly, at L12 you probably don't want to prepare more than one, unless you're very sure you'll be fighting evil outsiders / undead (since it competes with Heal and Heroes' Feast). And it's a touch attack. Ranged touch attack. Hence the name Bolt. So how do you expect a cleric with only +8 BAB and no dex to hit something that, at APL 12, is having a touch AC of +16. And is in melee combat. That means, to hit, I have to make a 12 or better on the die. Well, hmmm, my cleric admittedly has Dex 18 ;) (I play a 15th-level cleric who grew up in the Iuz's Border States, serves Perrenland as a professional fiend-hunter, and just loves Bolt of Glory to bits.) But really, you fight a lot of fiends / undead with touch AC 16? Most of the ones I meet have touch AC ~10. Note that the melee penalty usually doesn't apply if the foe is Huge or larger - you can ignore the penalty if you can target a square at least five feet away from any foes. Also, if you fling the bolt of glory on the first round, you can often pick an opponent who's not in melee yet. I'm just speaking from my experience of playing a cleric (now L15) who can't maximize the spell, but STILL prepares one every module, gets to use it very often, has never missed the touch attack, and has never regretted memorizing it. Sure, I could cast recitation. That's a +3. Maybe if I buff with something else, I could get a +4 to hit. That's still having to hit an 8, minimum. That's a round wasted, and then 4 turn attempts and my 6th level domain spell all to TRY to do 15d12 points of damage...that the things going to resist somehow anyways. (see...told you it'd get abbrasive... :blush:) If you had quicken you could do quickened divine favor, and it's not like recitation is only buffing you, but I'm just surprised that you're fighting all smaller-than-Huge fiends and undead with minimum 16 touch AC. The damage isn't energy typed, so about the only way to stop it is spell resistance: access to Assay Spell Resistance would help with that if you could find it. only gotten low access to pearls of power (which aren't gonna help me much if they're level one), and I barely got access to my +4 periapt. First-level pearls are actually very useful - they translate to near-unlimited lesser vigors, as many resurgences as you need, and perhaps the ability to keep minutes / level buff spells running for hours at a time (like, say, shield of faith - +4 deflection bonuses are nice). The issue about my cleric isn't it's items and spending. It's my build. Because a character isn't made by the magic items and equipment they carry. It's the character. Else, we'd all be running around at level 1 taking on demons and undead with our +10 weapons and armor, books of health and intellect. Maybe my cleric's not doing as well as others with his equipment. But that shouldn't be such a huge enough gap to be left behind by every other cleric... Actually, high-APL gear is really really important... my cleric played a module where the entire dungeon was permeated by a Silence field, which meant that her usual array of up-to-L7 spells was cut down to three spells of L3 or lower (she has a single lesser rod of silent spell). I was stunned by how effective she remained after removing all her most important class abilities, mostly on the strength of her items. You mention other clerics outshining your character - can you tell us anything about what they're doing? They may be pulling spectacular one-off tricks, or getting lucky - I mean, last game my cleric did close to 300 damage / round in melee for four rounds (then she ran out of targets), against foes with AC ~30, but that required her to spend 500XP on Zealot Pact and correctly guess the alignment of the bad guys in advance.
Mommy was an Orc 01-24-07, 12:59 PM	Actually, high-APL gear is really really important... I have to reiterate this - one of the biggest mistakes that people can make is their gear choice. Let's take a look at your Cleric, Crystal Blue: +2 Holy Adamantine Longsword = 35K +1 Silver Spellstoring Longsword = 8.4K +1 Ghost touch Longsword = 8.3K Periapt +4 = 16K +1 Platemail = 2.6K Sash of the Healer = 7.5K(if I remember correctly, not sure about that) So you've got 77.8K of gear for a 12th level character. The expected values for a 12th level character is about 88K. You're a little behind the curve for a normal 12th level character. When you subtract out your weapons, you've got about 26K of non-weapons. However, you're a cleric, which means you could have been enchanting items with Craft Wondrous Item. Now, let's quickly gear out a 12th level Cleric with that 77.8K +1 Ghost Touch Adamantine Longsword = 11K(Cast Greater Magic Weapon with Bead of Karma to make it +4 or on your party's BDF fighter) Full Plate = 1.6K(Cast Magic Vestment in the morning with Bead of Karma to make it +4. Ditto for Heavy Shield.) Periapt +6 = 20K 10 Pearls of Power 1st = 5K Cloak of Charisma +2 = 2K Ioun Stone of Con +2 = 4K 2 Rods of Lesser Extend = 6K Vest of Resistance +2 = 2K Circlet of Persuasion = 2.25K Strand of Prayer Beads(Karma, Healing, Smite) 22.9K So while your character has 77.8K of gear, 51K in weapons, this character has 110K of gear, only 11K in weapons. To put this in perspective - when you're not using your weapons, you've got 27K of gear in general use while this guy has 99K of gear in general use. Magic items may not be absolutely critical, but how is it possible that nearly 4* the amount of magic items won't make a difference? Most of the wondrous items, this character does not need access to create - only the Ioun Stone.
jstorrie 01-24-07, 01:06 PM	The main problem with your cleric is that you've purchased the wrong kind of gear. With your stat and feat choices, you should be sitting back and dropping Maximized blasting spells. Skill Focus (Concentration) is also a bit of a wash. The main problem with your Horizon Walker is that you don't have 18 Str for a mighty (+4) composite longbow. You're also one fighter level from Weapon Specialization - why not get it? Dim Door isn't as crucial for an archer as damage is. The main problem with your Fochlucan-Lyrist-in-training is that your build is no good. There's no way to be delicate about that, sorry. Fochlucan Lyrists (and all Theurge-types) are very difficult to build in LG given that they generally only reach optimum power around level 16, and it doesn't help that you've made some questionable class choices. There's no way to really 'fix' this build - it's just going to be a sub-optimal for a while. If you stick with it, it'll start to come together a little around level 12 and above, but I wouldn't blame you for not having the patience to level out of the doldrums here. Your ranger/fighter/swashbuckler is fine. If you have Courtblade access, absolutely, go CoC. Take a Wildrunner dip too. You know you can both Finesse and Power Attack with a Courtblade, right? Pick up Power Attack and all of your damage problems will be solved. Get CoC 2/Wildrunner X tacked onto your build and you'll have a powerhouse. Don't forget that you can TWF with a Courtblade and armor spikes, too - that Ranger bonus feat isn't a waste. Having lost two caster levels for essentially zero return, your shadowcaster is Red Hand of Doom-ed. Good luck with that one. You may want to 'arrange' a level loss so you can get rid of that extraneous Shadowcaster level - then you'd be sitting in a much better position. I don't see too much wrong with your bard/marshal/dragon disciple. It's a support character, so don't expect to stray out of tripping, talking, and buffing, but it's not a bad support character.
Camden 01-24-07, 01:35 PM	I Strand of Prayer Beads(Karma, Healing, Smite) 12.9K Major Snippage I know, but... Strand of Prayer Beads - Standard (which is the Karma, Healing, Smite one) is actually 45,800gp pg 62 LGCS Campign Errata. I know it doesn't show up in the DMG, or the DMG errata, or the FAQ, but unfortunatly it is there in the LGCS :( (Unless there's something overwriting that entry somewhere ? ) But it doesn't change the fact that it is a must have for most clerics, it just changes where you would spend your gold...
Mommy was an Orc 01-24-07, 02:00 PM	But it doesn't change the fact that it is a must have for most clerics, it just changes where you would spend your gold... Oh forgot about that - I almost never play Clerics as I hate how powerful the class is. Just looked it up on the SRD.
Camden 01-24-07, 02:59 PM	Oh forgot about that - I almost never play Clerics as I hate how powerful the class is. Just looked it up on the SRD. I do the same, but for some reason the number didn't seem right in my head from something I read. You never know They may change it back to how it is in the DMG etc, for the next release of the LGCS...
CrystalBlue 01-25-07, 01:16 PM	I really have no clue what Prayer Beads are...an I really doubt they'd make me any more powerful then I already am. And cleric's aren't that great of a class, Mommy. You whould, you know, play one some time and find out how crapped-on they are. Well, I'll take Craft Wonderous as my 12th level...I just seriously doubt it's ability to help me. And I'm NOT getting rid of my adamantine longsword, as I payed half gold for the holy and it acts as a holy symbol for casting spells for me.
bitznarf 01-25-07, 01:32 PM	Well Crystal Blue, from what I know of D&D, druids, wizards, and clerics are generally considered the strongest classes in the game, combat-wise, when they are played to their full potential, by which I mean no holds barred min/max power-gaming, even when put up against other power builds. And as for the bead of karma... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads mmm +4 caster level.. :twitch::evillaugh
Camden 01-25-07, 01:51 PM	I really have no clue what Prayer Beads are...an I really doubt they'd make me any more powerful then I already am. And cleric's aren't that great of a class, Mommy. You whould, you know, play one some time and find out how crapped-on they are. Well, I'll take Craft Wonderous as my 12th level...I just seriously doubt it's ability to help me. And I'm NOT getting rid of my adamantine longsword, as I payed half gold for the holy and it acts as a holy symbol for casting spells for me. Standard Prayer beads have 3 uses Karma : +4 Caster level for 10 Minutes Smite : Holy Smite Healiing: Either a CSW, Rem Disease, or Rem Blind/Deaf Each one can be used 1/day. CL9 to Craft (or CL11 without Access) so you'll be fine if you pick up CWI at 12th. Keep the Holy Sword, if it's a Holy Symbol as well, Fantastic. I think the point tha was tryong to be made was you don't need that many Weapons as a Cleric. Fighters will 'swap' between weapons (for DR purposes). Clerics have a list of Spells ;) As for Clerics/Druids/Wizards being overpowered at higher levels, It's kinda true. Low Levels the Fighters/Barbies are overpowered Mid Level it depends on the game High Level Pure Casters become overpowered But At low levels the fighters still need the support from the casters (to keep them going, finish things off with a ray/MM, control the fight with a grease spell) At high levels the casters need the fighter type to stand in the way and do what they do, so they have the oppotunity to do their thing at higher levels.
Mommy was an Orc 01-25-07, 02:56 PM	I really have no clue what Prayer Beads are...an I really doubt they'd make me any more powerful then I already am. And cleric's aren't that great of a class, Mommy. You whould, you know, play one some time and find out how crapped-on they are. They're an item in DMG....Seriously, you don't know what a DMG item is and yet you're willing to say it won't make you more powerful. The reasons that Clerics can be powerful is because of their magic item choices and their feats. Then you can really use spells to their fullest effect. A Holy Word cast at 21st caster level at 13th level using just Divine Spellpower and a Bead of Karma will end combats almost automatically. It will blow past SR and then you're so much higher caster level than likely hit dice that things will be stunned, paralyzed, or even killed.
Camden 01-25-07, 03:28 PM	They're an item in DMG....Seriously, you don't know what a DMG item is and yet you're willing to say it won't make you more powerful. The reasons that Clerics can be powerful is because of their magic item choices and their feats. Then you can really use spells to their fullest effect. A Holy Word cast at 21st caster level at 13th level using just Divine Spellpower and a Bead of Karma will end combats almost automatically. It will blow past SR and then you're so much higher caster level than likely hit dice that things will be stunned, paralyzed, or even killed. Surprise : Activate Bead of Karma Rnd1 : DSP for next Spell Cast Cast Holy Word etc Anything 21HD or less is deafened 20HD or less Blinded/Deafened 16HD or less Paralyzied/Blinded/Deafened 11HD or less Killed/Paralyzied/Blinded/Deafened. And if You got the Good Domain add 1HD to each of those (as Holy word is [Good] and you get +1 Caster Level And then if you have the Orange IounStone it gets even worse (+1Caster Level - Unnamed Bonous so stackable with itself (iirc)). Hence the 'truce' that exists on some tables. "You don't bring your CL20+ Holy Words, we won't bring our CL20+ Blasphemy's (and we're the bad guys so we can tweak it more than you) Remember that it will also effect your Party Members as well. Nothing like seeing the Cleric cast it, and realise that the some of the party aren't actually Good...
bitznarf 01-25-07, 04:23 PM	And then if you have the Orange IounStone it gets even worse (+1Caster Level - Unnamed Bonous so stackable with itself (iirc)). I do believe that bonuses from the same source do not stack, regardless of the type of bonus. Unnamed do stack with all other types however, as well as other unnamed bonuses, presuming different sources of course.
jstorrie 01-25-07, 04:36 PM	And cleric's aren't that great of a class, Mommy. You whould, you know, play one some time and find out how crapped-on they are. uhhhhhhhhhhh
Lomiat 01-25-07, 05:36 PM	Hence the 'truce' that exists on some tables. "You don't bring your CL20+ Holy Words, we won't bring our CL20+ Blasphemy's (and we're the bad guys so we can tweak it more than you) Remember that it will also effect your Party Members as well. Nothing like seeing the Cleric cast it, and realise that the some of the party aren't actually Good... You'd like to think that NG Radiant Servants of Pelor might care about their party members, wouldn't you? But if leads to a chance to show off, here comes the cleric making with the "purity test..." Contingency: Silence on the familiar, and keep him close at hand. That's what I say.
Japangirl 01-25-07, 06:01 PM	Hence the 'truce' that exists on some tables. "You don't bring your CL20+ Holy Words, we won't bring our CL20+ Blasphemy's (and we're the bad guys so we can tweak it more than you) Remember that it will also effect your Party Members as well. Nothing like seeing the Cleric cast it, and realise that the some of the party aren't actually Good... Some tables? This truce keeps all the APL 12-16 tables alive in all BK and Iuz metaregional modules. It's the only reason the entire region isn't depopulated of high level adventurers. And then realize some people aren't good? I'm trying to think of how many good people I've actually played with, and the neutral-bordering-on-evil ones definitely outnumber then. It is surely a regional variation though.
copper_wyrmling 01-25-07, 08:07 PM	Some tables? This truce keeps all the APL 12-16 tables alive in all BK and Iuz metaregional modules. It's the only reason the entire region isn't depopulated of high level adventurers. Yup. I was on the receiving end of a CL 13 Blasphemy at APL 8 in a Year 3 Iuz module. We only avoided a TPK because the GM read the spell wrong and allowed us all Will saves (DC 22) to negate the effects. And that was a relatively gentle introduction to the problem: I've seen monsters with CL 29 Blasphemy available at APL 14. The truce doesn't seem to be quite as formalized in Perrenland and Bissel as I've heard it is in the BK, but I stick to it with my L15 cleric, and I specifically ask GMs to abide by it as well at the start of high-APL modules. I still think it would be better if the truce was made official by Restricting Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum and Word of Chaos ;) I-Win tricks are no fun from a tactical perspective - they tend to make combats very boring. You can build a perfectly effective cleric in LG without abusing Holy Word.
Camden 01-25-07, 09:06 PM	I do believe that bonuses from the same source do not stack, regardless of the type of bonus. Unnamed do stack with all other types however, as well as other unnamed bonuses, presuming different sources of course. You have multiple Orange Ioun Stones (which cost 30k (or 15k if you make them (CWI: CL12, Each one is it's own 'source' as they are all different 'entities' or items. They each provide a Seperate +1 Caster Level (Un-Named) so stack (still from memory here, so play nice if I'm wrong) eg Ioun Stone(Orange) 1 : +1 Caster Level (UnNamed) Ioun Stone(Orange) 2 : +1 Caster Level (UnNamed) Ioun Stone(Orange) 3 : +1 Caster Level (UnNamed) and so forth
Camden 01-25-07, 09:21 PM	Some tables? This truce keeps all the APL 12-16 tables alive in all BK and Iuz metaregional modules. It's the only reason the entire region isn't depopulated of high level adventurers. And then realize some people aren't good? I'm trying to think of how many good people I've actually played with, and the neutral-bordering-on-evil ones definitely outnumber then. It is surely a regional variation though. I think it is fairly regional. In my home region and anywhere else I travel I'm one of those 'neutral-bordering-on-evil' types. It's all about the money, and if i roll and dice and Norebo says "NO", then thats the way the boss wants it. But I played in the VTF and got this Angel on my shoulder that sort of keeps me in check, and now I've decided when I go on my prolonged holiday from being a FreeSword and travel to Ekbir and the VTF, I may become good, mainly due to it the region being Good vs Evil, with Demons, Devils, Angels and other things. Besides it's a nice break from being a Free Sword mercenary scum, just doing jobs for free to help people out, cuts out all the haggling of "Well how much is your mother worth to you ? a little more than 50gold I think. What do you mean your a farmer and this is your life savings ?"
CrystalBlue 01-26-07, 01:28 PM	Ok... *waves hand* I'm about to be slapped down again... 28K or more for an item that, once per day, jacks your caster level up by 4? ...That's it? That's my trump card? A one-shot +4 to caster level? Oh boy...look out for the 12th level cleric that's casting at *gasp* 16th level! Oh, wait...we have things that can resist him without even rolling. Yay for SR of 20+! Yay for auto-make Will and Fort saves! Seriously...I'd be better trying to ranged attack a fine-sized creature in melee combat...with cover. *sighs* Please give me something more to work on. This won't save my life. This will get me killed almost instantly. And most things will be so high level that they'll laugh at a Holy Word...which is why I don't waste the spell slots on it. If it didn't have a save, maybe. But...too many things just laugh in my face when I would try and cast that. I'm not trying to be argumenative. I just know what I've run into before. I know these tricks won't work. Maybe in the regions you all play in, with the judges you have...but not here. Sorry... *whimpers and hides now*
Camden 01-26-07, 04:00 PM	Ok... *waves hand* I'm about to be slapped down again... 28K or more for an item that, once per day, jacks your caster level up by 4? ...That's it? That's my trump card? A one-shot +4 to caster level? Oh boy...look out for the 12th level cleric that's casting at *gasp* 16th level! Oh, wait...we have things that can resist him without even rolling. Yay for SR of 20+! Yay for auto-make Will and Fort saves! Seriously...I'd be better trying to ranged attack a fine-sized creature in melee combat...with cover. *sighs* Please give me something more to work on. This won't save my life. This will get me killed almost instantly. And most things will be so high level that they'll laugh at a Holy Word...which is why I don't waste the spell slots on it. If it didn't have a save, maybe. But...too many things just laugh in my face when I would try and cast that. I'm not trying to be argumenative. I just know what I've run into before. I know these tricks won't work. Maybe in the regions you all play in, with the judges you have...but not here. Sorry... *whimpers and hides now* Erm, hate to point this out but Holy word is No Save for the change of Status http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm The Will save is for the Banishment of Non Good Extra Planar creatures... It is Basiclly are you Good ? If yes ignore my effects, if not what HD are you and we'll see how your effected. Are you Extra Planar ? If so make a Will save or go home... The Bead of Karma lasts for 10 Minutes... Long enough to get your Magic Vestment +4 on your Armour (then recall and cast it on your shield) Long enough to cast your GMW +4, and maybe recall it and cast it on the fighter weapons. and they're lasting for 16hours... Then you still have the Smiting bead to use, and the healing bead (saves buying scrolls of Rem Disease, Rem Blindness/Deafness) Alternativly you use it as a pre-buff, or in a surprise round, adding +4 to your caster level. So when something has SR your caster level is 16 (not 12) Creature with SR23 ? Your looking at rolling 7+ on your d20 (not 11+) 11th level you have 6th level spells available...Your playing APl10-12 (and once leveled possibly 14) How about casting Heal at 15th level. 150hp's instead of 120 ? Coupled with Delay Death this is great (Immediate action, Close range Cleric4). I know that playing my tank I'd prefer the 150 over 120. Or you use your DMM Max on a cl15 Flamstrike ? at APL10 it's fairly succesful, APL12 a well placed one turns the tide. Ready it on a caster, thats one hell of a concentration check. and you get whoever is near him. How about going combat heavy ? Righous Might have DR9 instead. As said before at higher levels it's about the Role that you play, If your a combat cleric then the Bead may not help as much as other things (except for Buffs) Look at your role that you want to play with your cleric, then have a look at the spells you cast (and what they cap off at) most cap at cl15, but casting them on apl10-12 tables makes a big difference.
CdrcJsn 01-26-07, 04:05 PM	Crystal, it's obvious you're playing your cleric wrong. A cleric is acknowledged the most powerful of the base classes (next to druid). I myself play a Cleric as my LG main. He's retired now, but when I played the two high level games recently, he was: Cleric5/DivineOracle4/Ruathar3/EarthDreamer5/Contemplative1 Why don't you describe your tactics for us and we'll let you know what you're doing wrong (because it's obvious you are doing something wrong). Your build is decent and even your equipment isn't that bad (doesn't coincide with your stated goals, but not bad). You're in an APL12 group which consists of: * Raging Occult Slayer 12, in mithril breastplate, poor AC, power attacker * Paladin Cavalry 11, full plate * Bard12 * Arcane Trickster Archer Rog3/Wiz5/AT4 * Sorcerer 10 concentrating on battle field control What spells do you memorize? Describe your first 3 actions in combat.
CrystalBlue 01-26-07, 06:48 PM	My first thought would be a Righteous Wrath of the Faithful...then a recitation next round...and after that I'd try and put a Bolt of Glory into the largest thing I can see. That's about it. That's all he's really good for is a bit of buffing and waiting to heal something.
Camden 01-26-07, 08:28 PM	My first thought would be a Righteous Wrath of the Faithful...then a recitation next round...and after that I'd try and put a Bolt of Glory into the largest thing I can see. That's about it. That's all he's really good for is a bit of buffing and waiting to heal something. Ok, please don't take this the wrong way but... Why ? Rightous Wrath only effects Melee attacks, and on a Full attack option (except the +3Hit +3Damage on All Attack rolls). The Bard won't be going into Melee (well every bard i have ever seen won't) The Sorcerer Will be casting Wall of Force (6th level 'Battlefield control Spell' The Arcane Trickster is an Archer And the Paladin Calvary, we'll be doing Ride By, Spirted Charge (and therefore not having a Full attack option, but gets +3hit +9damage) So the Occult Slayer is the only 1 it benefits (if he goes after you) How about a DMM Maxed BladeBarrier ? to help getting the fight under control, or a Flamestrike to soften up targets for the Paladin and Occult Slayer ? How about using that Bead of Karma, so the next round you can do a 15d6 Blade Barrier, 15d6 Bolt of Glory (and then use your DMM Max on them), CL15 Heal on the Raging No AC Occult Slayer. You can either give an extra 15(or so) points of damage to other characters to do, or assist in controling the fight and doing the damage, or preparing to lay the smack down the following round/go into serious damage control... In my experience High level casting is about getting the combat under control, or putting it in your favor as quickly as possible. Sure there will be moments when the front line is wavering on 3 hp's, and your looking around the table thinking "Erm ok, we're scr*wed", so it's become how to best get it under control.
UMiskatonic 01-26-07, 11:56 PM	I agree, these are some poor choices. You can't wait for stuff to happen as a cleric. You have to anticipate it. I'm beginning to think that it's not all the character. The good news is that it's much easier to fix what YOU do, you'll be more effective in minutes. Besides, you can count on any bard that's lived to 15th level to inspire courage immediately. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful does NOT stack with that, they are both morale bonuses. You HAVE to keep track of these things. Bards can cast haste as well, and always do, and it's a 3rd level spell for him, so more efficient. Also, you missed the front half of the mod, preparation. Given the sample party below, the only person in melee in a meaningful way is the Occult Slayer. The paladin will use ride-by for triple damage, and not be within full attack range of any enemies. The archer and sorceror will attack from range, probably the bard too. So, Stalwart Pact on the Occult Slayer, and probably Greater Magic Vestment as well, depending on the armor he owns. Greater magic weapon on the Paladin, since that +4 bonus will be tripled to +12 when he charges. Imbue with Spell Ability and Grave Strike could give the Arcane Trickster some real juice against the undead; it's vital for straight rogues. Do you know what spells the sorceror and trickster are best at? Ask. Because YOU have the most flexible spell list, it's YOUR job to adjust. If the Sorceror introduces himself as Flamey McBurns-alot, you should skip Flame Strike. Can the bard push up your caster level? If so, take more spells that improve with caster level (ex. Flame Strike, not True Seeing) And a Heroes' Feast is a good idea for every mod unless you know that other spells will be better. Divination is another great spell for early in the mod. Sometimes it does nothing, true, but sometimes it does everything. I usually take it for anything described as an 'investigation' and Scry too. Depending on what's coming your way, I'd open with a Harm spell, a maximized Flame Strike, or a maximized Blade Barrier AND a delay death on the Occult Slayer. Keep that dude up, he does huge damage. Maximized Searing light or a Turn attempt vs. anyone applicable. You've got a good wisdom, cast plane shift on anyone with a bad will save (fighters, rogues, giants) as soon as you get one of those little forks. Bye bye. If the situation calls for it, I would substitute True Seeing, Mass Bear's Endurance, or Mass Resurgence. If you're fighting a bunch of mooks, cast Divine Power or Righteous Might (less good), and save all of your other spells for later. I would offer advice on using pearls of power, wands, scrolls, staves, or misc. magic items, if you had any. Sure you need three swords for a guy whose stated purpose in life is to cast spells?
copper_wyrmling 01-27-07, 07:08 AM	Depending on what's coming your way, I'd open with a maximized Harm spell, a maximized Flame Strike, or a maximized Blade Barrier AND a delay death on the Occult Slayer. Keep that dude up, he does huge damage. Maximized Searing light or a Turn attempt vs. anyone applicable. You've got a good wisdom, cast plane shift on anyone with a bad will save (fighters, rogues, giants) as soon as you get one of those little forks. Bye bye. If the situation calls for it, I would substitute True Seeing, Mass Bear's Endurance, or Mass Resurgence. If you're fighting a bunch of mooks, cast Divine Power or Righteous Might, and save all of your other spells for later. Generally good advice, but a couple of minor notes: - There's not really any point in maximizing Harm :P - Plane Shift is only a good idea if the bad guys aren't waving around expensive equipment ;) (since their gear goes to the Abyss with them, and you lose all that lovely loot) Greater Command is usually a better L5 spell, since it's multi-target, it's very versatile, and it works at range. While it doesn't eliminate them from the combat, it usually takes them out for a couple of rounds, which is all you need at high APL. - After the errata to Righteous Might, Divine Power is better in almost every situation where you only have time for one combat buff (the exceptions being where you really really need reach, or where you're fighting monsters with a lot of small attacks who are severely hampered by DR / evil - i.e. not fiends).
UMiskatonic 01-27-07, 08:42 AM	Ah, you're right about the Harm spell. And the errata too. Grr. While you have a point about losing loot, there are times when I'll make that deal to save my bacon. That said, it's better used against elementals and templated oozes, and things which don't need equipment.
opa 01-27-07, 02:19 PM	Aside from horrible gear choices .. There's no reason to believe if someone made good tactical decisions these characters couldn't hold their own at APL.. and it really doesn't seem like they want help as they have been resistant to everything offered a cleric stripped naked of gear would still be greatly appreciated at any table I play, if the player knew how to play one.. and even didnt know how to play, if they had a ton of 1st level pearls for lesser vigors at combats end.. I'd still love em...
CrystalBlue 01-27-07, 09:45 PM	Alright...I filled out my last AR and a few more and I've leveled up my cleric. Here's what I did: I took Craft Wonderous Items. I sold the two other swords and played two more mods. I crafted an upgrade to the periapt, crafted a strand of Prayer Beads, and crafted 5 pearls of power 1st level. Now I need to figure out what else to buy or craft as well as what to take for spells. I do want the help. I'm just trying to show you why I thought they were bad ideas. I'm not arguing...I'm trying to show you what's wrong with me. :P Now...for my ranger. One more mod and I'll level to 9th. I was looking at Beastmaster and wondering if I could take it and use my griffon as the animal companion. Can I do this? I doubt it, because he's a magical being instead of an animal. Plus, I'll have to take another level of ranger to get more levels for the animal companion. Based on a large griffon's HD, I need to get access to 7th level animal companions. Should I do this or not?
Camden 01-28-07, 02:55 PM	Grats on Leveling :) For the Ranger. Personally I wouldn't take Beastmaster. You are counted as a Druid3 + levels of Beastmaster in working out your Animal Companion, Unfortunatly afaik Griffon isn't on the Druid List http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#alternativeAnimalCompanions Unless it is on a MetaOrg list somewhere (it could be I have no idea) I think a better option would be going back to Ranger. You have the DD from Horizon Walker, and the Mounted Archery Feats, and you say your an Archer, so why not concentrate on that ? 1 more level of ranger gets you an animal companion, and then you can get ArrowMind at Ranger6 (but you'd beed a peripat), but it also means you've 'wasted' a feat slot by taking many shot already. Possibly take fighter to get the rest of the archery Feats ? Maybe True Believer and head into Pios Templar ? You get WS for the Bow, as well as Bonus feats... Just a Random thought - and probably kinda wrong for what you want
opa 01-28-07, 05:01 PM	Congrats on levelling , I think you will have a lot more fun and luck with your character, just read up on the items you have , and plan tactics on their use, trust me pearling lesser vigors at combats end is super appreciated.. My main character is an Archer, and I wouldnt go beastmaster you wont get enough out of it and it wont work on the griffon, and although I might have recommended straight Ranger for a bit, the fact that you have already taken manyshot tends to recommend something different.. My archer tends to run into the two problems pretty common to every high level Archer out there, ability to do great damage with is compounded by DR, and low will, a smart judge targets archers with will save spells alot we are generally horrible.. so my recommendation would depend on whether the judges you play with are whacking you with will saves alot.. Ive seen people drop in a level of hexblade for the +2 will saves without a BAB hit, or take a dip into OOBI for the +2 wil +2 ref saves and precision damage If I were you and wasn't getting hit with alot of spells I probably would go to Fighter 3 and 4 getting Weapon Specialization, and using the 8 skill points to try to get into one of prestige classes, also be sure to buy up on adamantine arrows , and try to get your bow upgraded , holy would be nice, bane(something you fight alot in your region would be ok), quiver of ehlonna is key, and you might wanna have a couple upgraded +1 bows rather than pay to upgrade one with everything way cheaper and less heartbreaking if an evil judge sunders it.. not knowing what your skill points are spent in, if it were me and I am not on the level of someone like "mommy" and being a notorious dipper.. I would go Ranger3/Fighter 2/Horizon Walker3 Fighter3- improved Rapid +1 BAB, +1 REF, +1 Will- Craft Bow 2/Know religion1 fighter 4- Weapon Specialization(LB), +1 BAB, +1 Fort- craft Bow 4/Religion 2 Hexblade1-+1 BAB, +2 Will,craft bow 5/know arcane 1(might be handy) ride 2 cant hurt your on a flying mount Order of Bow initiate 1-BUMP dex +1..Improved Precise shot.. +1 BAB, +2 Will, +2 Ref, d8 ranged precision, ride up to 6 or spot... those 4 take you to 12 with +4 BAB (gotta have full BAB) +1 Fort +3 Ref (what I get targeted with second most) +5 Will (what I get targeted with the most) 19 DEX (20 with Gloves) (make sure you buy armor that will let you utilize your full bonus's) Weapon Specialization (will help your damage output, be sure to have a few upgraded bows, special materials arrows, and ehlonnas quiver) Improved Rapid (helps you hit) Improved Precise shot, (will help your to hit, but more importantly will allow you to fire into a grapple to help save someone instead of standing around not having something to do, when a friend is in trouble) d8 precision Damage (sorta useful against really tough DR or when you are forced to move and can't full attack) lame hexblade curse, fun to roleplay, and it will eventually work on something, heck its a free action you also bought a few ranks in knowledge type skills that heck may even help out someday... and increased your ride or spot depending on what your need is.. thats just what I would do... Opa Bissel
Iswald 02-02-07, 03:04 PM	Now...for my ranger. One more mod and I'll level to 9th. I was looking at Beastmaster and wondering if I could take it and use my griffon as the animal companion. Can I do this? I doubt it, because he's a magical being instead of an animal. Plus, I'll have to take another level of ranger to get more levels for the animal companion. Based on a large griffon's HD, I need to get access to 7th level animal companions. Should I do this or not? Your PC would need to join the Standing Army of the Shield Lands and then become a Griffon Rider. Spending an extra 10 TUs would allow the PC to take the griffon as an animal companion with a -6 modifier. This would require having an effective druid level of 7. Four more levels of ranger and one level of beastmaster would be required. Or, two more levels of ranger, and one level each of druid and beastmaster. In either case, you might want a periapt of wisdom.
Rerednaw 02-02-07, 04:33 PM	deleted.
CrystalBlue 02-05-07, 01:20 PM	Meh...well, I might not do that then. Which, in the end, kills the ranger's mounted combat and mounted archery feats. *sigh* I loved my griffon...but if I can't make him survivable, he's just gonna take a digger into the ground. Guess I wasted two feats...
Arinaad 02-05-07, 03:04 PM	Crystal; You are quite brave (in a good way) in admitting that you want help. First let me say that I have looked over your builds and I really like a few of them. I guess that the over-riding advice that I have for you is that there are three or more other players at the table, don't compete with them, help them, every little bit helps to get the job done. For your clericI assure you that I will NEVER turn away a player who says "I'm bringing a healing cleric with Maximise." I think you will be quite happy with the decision you made to sell those weapons that you shouldn't be using. I believe that you will find that there are much better ways to simulate these rather than carry them as expensive equipment that seldom (if ever) gets used. I would suggest buying scrolls of the spells that grant weapons various elemental damage and other abilities (ie ghost touch weapon, flame arrow). Also, carry with you scrolls of the utility spells (remove disease, rem blindness/deafness etc.) and always having scrolls of dispell magic is handy (or a good poker face/bluff check to persuade the enemy caster that you are holding one for counterspelling purposes). As for the Pearls of Power you should be happy at the results you get when you use Lesser Vigour to heal the party, yes it takes time, but it is garanteed 15 hp per casting. If you think this is pointless I just finished running Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and the RSoP was using a wand of LV to heal the party. Archer: Don't be offended at your +13/+13/+8!! That's great for 8th. I think you have a good plan but, as I have experience with a high level archer, be prepared to have difficulties overcoming DR. Find ways to help you over that hump and you will do very well. Diplo: Don't beat yourself up over having ONLY +29 diplomacy!!! That's more than enough! I don't personally like FL as a PClass mainly because it is quite difficult to enter, in your case though it looks like it will not be a bad decision. As with others I dislike diplomancers, inspite of the fact that I have one. I had to make serious changes to make his build work in the most remote possible ways. Crystal Blue: The build is rather similar to a Dervish that I built for someone. I have seen that it can be made to work VERY well. I threw in a couple of levels of duelist as well to help with the AC a little, but she seems to be doing quite well with the character plateauing every second to third level. Shadow Caster: I have seen reference to this class, but as I don't know what manual to find it in, and what it does, I will refrain from commenting. Marshall/DD: Good plan, I have seen it work in principle before... not quite with the DD entry though so it would be rather interesting to find out how you make it work. As a follow up note, I prefer characters like you have interesting, diverse and moderate. Over powered characters are fun on occasion, but the stress of having to do 200 damage a round just doesn't appeal to me. I love being the behind the scenes character. Arinaad