Post/Author/DateTime	Post
astromist 05-18-07, 08:51 AM	It has been awhile since I have played a wizard, I needed some clarification on a few things. 1.When summoning a monster with a celestial in the name, I add the celestial template to it? 2.On hit points, do I max out, take the listed from the MM, or roll every time? 3.I have chosen Summon Monster 1, Sleep, Magic Missile and Mage armor as some of my spells, any suggestions on the others I should pick?
Southernskies 05-18-07, 09:06 AM	1. Yes 2. As listed in the MM 3. Don't bother with SM1 as a starting character (in fact, I wouldn't even bother with MM before 5th level); the casting time and return on investment is marginal unless you summon into a flank for the rogue. SM3 onwards is worth it. Scribe SM1 later if you want to craft bane weapons. Battlefield channel/save or die spells are the best option until you reach approx 5th level. Sleep (if you can afford the casting time) Colour Spray (save or die at APL2-4) Mage Armor (scribe lots; don't bother memorising) Grease (rogues best friend and battlefield channel) Obscuring Mist (negate sneak attack and gives the PCs a chance to regroup against nasty opponents) Magic Weapon (necessary until everyone has bought one) Enlarge Person (long duration at low levels; boost damage output more than any other spell you can cast) Unseen Servant (lots of utility and trapspringing) Damaging spells (if you really must have some): Burning Hands (more damage and more targets than MM up to ~5th level)
jimmy_dowdall 05-18-07, 11:18 AM	all the lesser orb spells make sr redundant, hail of stone a great low level blasting spell
Reylance 05-18-07, 11:45 AM	You might consider taking a spell that can't be found in the DMG, like one of the lesser orb spells. I like color spray and grease as low-level save-or-disabled spells. Magic Missile is useful, as the only sure damage spell, but you might consider some scrolls instead. Mage Armor is more likely than Shield to be successfully used as a defensive spell, but won't be used much, due to short durations.
Rerednaw 05-18-07, 11:45 AM	It has been awhile since I have played a wizard, I needed some clarification on a few things. 1.When summoning a monster with a celestial in the name, I add the celestial template to it? 2.On hit points, do I max out, take the listed from the MM, or roll every time? 3.I have chosen Summon Monster 1, Sleep, Magic Missile and Mage armor as some of my spells, any suggestions on the others I should pick? Character concept, stat distribution, feat selection, race? Do you plan to play up (APL4)? It will help to provide suggestions if we have more guidelines. I actually started with SF: Conj and Augment Summoning, of course this was pre-597. My wiz actually used his summons more at the early levels because he was forced into APL4+ from the start and save or dies typically didn't work (fighting constructs/undead or higher CR critters with correspondingly higher saves). He did get some use out of Grease though. Saved the party by tripping a BBEG. At level 3 it was Glitterdust or Web to open, followed by Summoning or letting the tanks take care of the rest.
TWG_Prometheus 05-18-07, 01:21 PM	all the lesser orb spells make sr redundant, hail of stone a great low level blasting spell At lower Wizard levels, shooting orbs into combat requires a die roll that is granting the bad guy an equivalent to Spell Resistance due to your miss chance. This is especially true if you haven't acquired Precise Shot. With higher levels, a moderate DEX, and/or a trickle of BAB over time, this goes away. Magic Missile is more reliable early on, though, even if you have to occaisionally compete with SR monsters. Against everything else, (almost - Curse you, Shield!) it hits. If you want to use single-target damaging spells early on, I'd mix in orbs with Magic Missile. Magic Missile is superior early on due to not having to make an attack roll, but certain opponents will shut it down completely, so you need options. If you haven't locked yourself out of Necromancy like most Wizards I see, Ray of Enfeeblement is a spell that will easily stand the test of time. Get Mage Armor in your starting spell list, but don't go memorizing both Mage Armor and Shield until you can afford to blow the 1st level spells for the day. That won't happen for a couple levels at least. In fact, whether you want to memorize Mage Armor at all depends on your party. If your party looks relatively capable of handling the enemies without you, go ahead and memorize one for the day. Most parties recognize that 1st and 2nd level Wizards especially aren't on the high point of their curve and won't mind carrying the load. Not having to worry about you folding under to the first goblin they see is probably worth it. If the party isn't so strong and needs your support, having even one Mage Armor memorized for the day can kill your offensive or support capability because you just don't have the capacity yet. I know one 2nd/3rd Wizard that's been memorizing four Mage Armors every day, but that was for an entirely different and very reasonable reason. Thank goodness he got over that curse.
Vamroc 05-18-07, 02:00 PM	Lesser orb of sound or force are great choices no SR no Save just roll to hit and add your Dex and BAB to it. With Orb of Sound you have a chance to make your opponent deaf. Which means he can't cast because you must be able to hear what you cast. He is also uneffected by spells that reqiure a subject to be commanded or spells that have to be heard like nearly all bard spell.
TWG_Prometheus 05-18-07, 02:08 PM	Lesser orb of sound or force are great choices no SR no Save just roll to hit and add your Dex and BAB to it. With Orb of Sound you have a chance to make your opponent deaf. Which means he can't cast because you must be able to hear what you cast. He is also uneffected by spells that reqiure a subject to be commanded or spells that have to be heard like nearly all bard spell. The Spell Compendium versions of the Lesser Orbs don't have any secondary effects. Only the 4th level analogs do. Additionally, there is no Spell Compendium Lesser Orb of Force. They are good spells and they have definite uses. Without knowledge of the opponents you'll be up against in advance, however, a mix of Magic Missile and Lesser Orbs is your best bet early on. If you want some math to it, a 2nd level Wizard has 1 BAB and probably no more than 3 Dex. Even with Precise Shot, they'll be looking at a 12+ Touch AC as often as not, requiring an 9+ on their attack roll to hit. That's no different at all as competing with Spell Resistance 11 for Magic Missile except you're giving normal mooks with no spell protection an effective Spell Resistance.
Lupo 05-18-07, 02:12 PM	At lower Wizard levels, shooting orbs into combat requires a die roll that is granting the bad guy an equivalent to Spell Resistance due to your miss chance. This is especially true if you haven't acquired Precise Shot. With higher levels, a moderate DEX, and/or a trickle of BAB over time, this goes away. Magic Missile is more reliable early on, though, even if you have to occaisionally compete with SR monsters. Against everything else, (almost - Curse you, Shield!) it hits. If you want to use single-target damaging spells early on, I'd mix in orbs with Magic Missile. Magic Missile is superior early on due to not having to make an attack roll, but certain opponents will shut it down completely, so you need options. If you haven't locked yourself out of Necromancy like most Wizards I see, Ray of Enfeeblement is a spell that will easily stand the test of time. Get Mage Armor in your starting spell list, but don't go memorizing both Mage Armor and Shield until you can afford to blow the 1st level spells for the day. That won't happen for a couple levels at least. In fact, whether you want to memorize Mage Armor at all depends on your party. If your party looks relatively capable of handling the enemies without you, go ahead and memorize one for the day. Most parties recognize that 1st and 2nd level Wizards especially aren't on the high point of their curve and won't mind carrying the load. Not having to worry about you folding under to the first goblin they see is probably worth it. If the party isn't so strong and needs your support, having even one Mage Armor memorized for the day can kill your offensive or support capability because you just don't have the capacity yet. I know one 2nd/3rd Wizard that's been memorizing four Mage Armors every day, but that was for an entirely different and very reasonable reason. Thank goodness he got over that curse. mage armor is best used for the party's monk or an animal companion, for a straight wizard it is seldom as helpful - especially at first level where this one defensive spell takes away between 25% (specialist) and 33% of your overall spellpower, even at level 3 it still takes away a reasonable amount of your offensive or buffing potential. buy or scribe some scrolls with this spell, advice all characters who are known to need it - monks and druids mainly - to buy some as well. now with the number of spells per scroll being open (or a at least opened to six) just scribe a bunch of scrolls with standard spells before your second or third adventure. one scroll with mage armor x 6 = 75 gp and 5 XP one scroll with magic missile x 6 = 75 gp and 5 XP one scroll with enlarge person x 6 = 75 gp and 5 XP one scroll with ray of enfeeblement x 6 = 75 gp and 5 XP one scroll with either orb, lesser [any energy type, acid most useful] or magic missile x 6 = 75 gp and 5 XP ciao martin m.
katrick 05-18-07, 02:53 PM	mage armor is best used for the party's monk or an animal companion, for a straight wizard it is seldom as helpful - especially at first level where this one defensive spell takes away between 25% (specialist) and 33% of your overall spellpower, even at level 3 it still takes away a reasonable amount of your offensive or buffing potential. buy or scribe some scrolls with this spell, advice all characters who are known to need it - monks and druids mainly - to buy some as well. now with the number of spells per scroll being open (or a at least opened to six) just scribe a bunch of scrolls with standard spells before your second or third adventure. one scroll with mage armor x 6 = 75 gp and 5 XP one scroll with magic missile x 6 = 75 gp and 5 XP one scroll with enlarge person x 6 = 75 gp and 5 XP one scroll with ray of enfeeblement x 6 = 75 gp and 5 XP one scroll with either orb, lesser [any energy type, acid most useful] or magic missile x 6 = 75 gp and 5 XP ciao martin m. isn't it 1TU per 1000gp; ie all 6 for 1, after all it's only one scroll. silent image is a very underrated spell, it runs off concentration, so if you continue to concentrate, your whole party can remain hidden forever, but as a Wiz you can still do this for 12gp 5 sp so why memorize it.(and you can still concentrate forever Alarm ; scirbe it. It will help you get that 8 hours rest per night. Endure Elements; when they mention bright sands or snow. True strike; in case you get grappled +20 to hit Verbal only(goes well with Lsr orbs) Ventriloquism; if your a diplomacy type And of course never forget the usefulness of Animate rope, at low levels this can mean success or failure. Scirbe Shield it lasts the same time and takes the same amount of time to cast But mostly scribe these spells and memorize MArmor, MMiss, or Lsr orb sound. if you got mega dex then Ray; it's a once of but your party will thank you, sometimes. Forget the monk at these levels, if he can't afford a peart then tough bikkies. Oh yeah and remember to have your xbow in your other hand at all times. Or better still crank the Spell Compendium for NONC Spells. katrick
Timlagor 05-18-07, 06:35 PM	The most 1st level spells a 1st level Wizard can cast in a day is 5 and that's with the super-specialisation and Int 20. In practice each Scroll is unlikley to have more than 3 1st level spells on it.
Munchausen 05-21-07, 03:35 PM	Well, you can put lvl 0 spells on scrolls. So you could have 6 spells on one scroll (depends on the class and lvl).. So a 1st Lvl wiz (avg wizard not a min/max wizard) in 1 day make a scroll with 2 1st lvl spells and 3 Zero lvl spells. Now with My 2nd Lvl Favored soul i have, I can do a scroll with 5 1st lvl spells and 1 Zero Lvl spell. Thats just 1 day, so I have 4 more days to make more scroll if I so choose.. but of course that would get expensive.. so odds are most people will not do 5 scrolls with 6 spells on each one. Still using my favoured soul as a example... I could make my 1st day scroll with 6 spells.. my 2nd day with 4 and my 3rd day with 3. Now if i made my 3rd day scroll with 3 spells all Cure Light Wounds.. If i was in a party with someone that could use it.. I could give them that scroll. Of course it would cost some GP and XP.. but then for scribing it does cost alot.. (yes I know i would have 2 more days to make 2 more scrolls but I dont want to spend ALL my GP on just scrolls.) And in my eye.. putting a few Zero lvl spells in a scroll could really help out :)
Timlagor 05-21-07, 07:36 PM	There is NO LIMIT OF SIX SPELLS PER SCROLL.
_metz_ 05-22-07, 03:37 AM	As posted in another thread there can be table variation on that, and its usually better to avoid that... Lets not get back into that argument AGAIN. :)
JamesMaissen 05-22-07, 02:36 PM	As posted in another thread there can be table variation on that, and its usually better to avoid that... Table variation happens. Unfortunately that is going to be a fact of life. However it engenders a duck and cover mentality that is not good for the game. Don't always be looking to run from it. Especially when it's not a question of interpretation a grey rule but rather just bucking a possible trend. Stand up for things that you believe in here. Autosurprise, autoprebuffed villians and Boxtext time stops have fallen off because people stood up against them. Other things have yet to do so (APL+X DCs, etc) but if enough people call it out as wrong when it occurs then it's a step in the right direction. -James
Timlagor 05-22-07, 07:00 PM	As posted in another thread there can be table variation on that, and its usually better to avoid that... Lets not get back into that argument AGAIN. :) There may be variation: there shouldn't be.
katrick 05-27-07, 01:45 PM	There is NO LIMIT OF SIX SPELLS PER SCROLL. our Triad has said 6 spells all the same. sorry katrick
magebeast 05-27-07, 06:19 PM	In Perrenland our Triad POC has said 6 spells all the same. sorry katrick The triad, by RPGA rules, does not make rulings on core rules issues.
Timlagor 05-27-07, 07:53 PM	Teh Triad can only make rulings when they are GMing and then they are constrained as everyone else is by the written rules. They do not have the authority to make rules up out of whole cloth except where a situation requires adjudicating for which there are no rules. Imposing such a limit is making up a rule in a way that table GMs are not entitled to do.
_metz_ 05-27-07, 08:48 PM	I like the perrenland triad. I'll let it slide :) If you can rally all the other perrenders, you might have some luck, but you will be better off trying to ban boats in modules...
katrick 05-28-07, 01:44 PM	The triad, by RPGA rules, does not make rulings on core rules issues. I didn't say it was a ruling, just that he said it, and people take notice,then you lose table variance from a whole region. katrick
magebeast 05-28-07, 02:20 PM	I didn't say it was a ruling, just that he said it, and people take notice,then you lose table variance from a whole region. katrick They can't do that. They just can't. Judges at tables in Perrenland are free to rule it however they like regardless of what the triad says.
Timlagor 05-28-07, 08:08 PM	They can't do that. They just can't. Judges at tables in Perrenland are free to rule it however they like regardless of what the triad says. They really aren't. There is nothing that allows a judge to impose such a limit.
copper_wyrmling 05-28-07, 08:43 PM	Magebeast, the Perrenland Triad POC isn't trying to make table GMs abide by his personal ruling (on his tables, though, I imagine it will be enforced), but a lot of GMs will probably follow his lead because it seems like a reasonable position to them and lessened table variation is usually a good thing. Any GM who wishes to rule otherwise is perfectly free to do so. Timlagor, there is some rules support for the six-spell limit, as I'm sure you know. I think it's pretty weak support, but it's nice to have some idea of what number of spells / scroll the rules consider normal, because it protects to some degree against GMs arbitrarily assigning penalties for handling extremely long scrolls.
JamesMaissen 05-29-07, 12:54 AM	Timlagor, there is some rules support for the six-spell limit, as I'm sure you know. I think it's pretty weak support... There really isn't any support. It's beyond weak and into fanciful. What seems to be used in those arguments would also equally apply to scrolls with a higher than minimum caster level, those with meta-magic feats applied to them, scrolls of some spells from certain casting classes, or even any scrolls whatsoever of a few select PhB spells (ie alter self). Bottom line this is a misplaced sense of 'protect from abuse' thinking that scribing multiple scrolls will somehow be unbalancing. As if half-price consumables could ever measure up to the level of half-price wondrous items. The more interesting question is what does such a judge do? Does he update your MIL? If so, what happens when you get to the next table, does it need to be altered back? -James
Timlagor 05-29-07, 01:38 PM	There really isn't any support. It's beyond weak and into fanciful. QFT -kill that meme!
katrick 05-30-07, 10:40 AM	The more interesting question is what does such a judge do? Does he update your MIL? If so, what happens when you get to the next table, does it need to be altered back? -James ask the DM at the start of the mod when you fill out your MIC, and you can't go wrong, for that game. If the next DM has a different ruling then you don't use that item\MIC at their table or you use it the way they rule it, simply make sure you still make some scrolls with only one spell on them. If I'm asked I'll recommend six. If someone has seven or thirteen, then that's fine, it's all give and take, though another DM may not think so. katrick
katrick 05-30-07, 11:01 AM	They can't do that. They just can't. Judges at tables in Perrenland are free to rule it however they like regardless of what the triad says. The judges can rule it anyway they want to at their table. In grey areas, people tend to look to others to help make their own judgement.ie thats what this forum is, isn't it. They can still choose to rule it a different way. And who better to ask about grey areas than the triad\mod writer\regular GM. The person in question, is all of these things and if thats good enough for them then thats good enough for me. I've even used some of the suggestions from yourself. I took this topic\grey area to my regular group, and after much deliberation( i wanted more than six, they think anything i find must be broken or an exploit of some kind), after every argument of the thread they all agreed that six was fine, and they comprise the majority of DM's from our regions largest player base, the POC posted on our yahoogroup for info and i pointed him towards that thread, he also came up with six, and he organizes the second largest player base in our region, (the third is no longer in our region) so it is highly likely that anyone in our region will get that answer to this question from any DM. ergo no TV katrick
JamesMaissen 05-30-07, 11:42 AM	If the next DM has a different ruling then you don't use that item\MIC at their table or you use it the way they rule it, simply make sure you still make some scrolls with only one spell on them. katrick If the DM rules the item is not legal, don't you need to remove the item from your MIL rather than just not use it? After all, according to them, it's an illegal item. They don't have a basis for this of course, but that's besides the point. In general, what happens when a judge says that an item you have is not valid? Do you just not use it? That seems wrong to me. -James
kjenks 05-30-07, 01:12 PM	all the lesser orb spells make sr redundant, hail of stone a great low level blasting spell The Lesser Orb of * spells are good, but firing into melee (-4 on attack rolls) and soft cover from intervening characters (+4 on opponent AC) often make these spells less advantageous than Magic Missile. The 1 round casting time and 5 gp material component for Hail of Stone make it less of a no-brainer.
Timlagor 05-30-07, 02:22 PM	The judges can rule it anyway they want to at their table. In grey areas, people tend to look to others to help make their own judgement.ie thats what this forum is, isn't it. They can still choose to rule it a different way. And who better to ask about grey areas than the triad\mod writer\regular GM. The person in question, is all of these things and if thats good enough for them then thats good enough for me. I've even used some of the suggestions from yourself. katrick This is not a grey area. The GM is not entitled to rule how they like on it any more than they can rule that animated shields are broken and therefore are illegal (don't work). It's simply not an area that is at all ambiguous and GMs making up their own rules is not something that should be torelated in LG.
kjenks 05-30-07, 06:08 PM	This is one of the fun things about LG: table variation. Sometimes, an otherwise perfectly reasonable DM will make a completely outlandish ruling. You can appeal, sometimes, if there is a Senior GM for the event, but mostly, ya gotta live with it. Don't look on this as a bug in the system; look at it as a feature. Whenever the DM makes a ruling that seems outlandish, make whatever polite protestations you require then play the rest of the game under whatever rules you have at the time. If a DM doesn't like your scroll of seven spells, rather than whining and complaining, just choose something else to do with your actions. If you can afford to scribe such a spell, you undoubtedly have other options you can take.
JamesMaissen 05-30-07, 10:50 PM	The Lesser Orb of * spells are good, but firing into melee (-4 on attack rolls) and soft cover from intervening characters (+4 on opponent AC) often make these spells less advantageous than Magic Missile. The 1 round casting time and 5 gp material component for Hail of Stone make it less of a no-brainer. You're also forgetting range. The lesser orb spells are close range, which at low levels is WAY too close for comfort (or longevity). -James
Timlagor 05-31-07, 10:12 AM	Being willing to put up with wrong decisions from GMs at the table does not make it ok to propagate those bad decisions and tell people they are ok. Clearly there will be GMs who think this and want to impose it. You *should* protest when they do so. Posting on here that they exist is fine: saying they are "entitled" to make those rulings is absolutely wrong. This is one of the fun things about LG: table variation. Sometimes, an otherwise perfectly reasonable DM will make a completely outlandish ruling. You can appeal, sometimes, if there is a Senior GM for the event, but mostly, ya gotta live with it. Don't look on this as a bug in the system; look at it as a feature. Whenever the DM makes a ruling that seems outlandish, make whatever polite protestations you require then play the rest of the game under whatever rules you have at the time. If a DM doesn't like your scroll of seven spells, rather than whining and complaining, just choose something else to do with your actions. If you can afford to scribe such a spell, you undoubtedly have other options you can take.
katrick 05-31-07, 12:43 PM	This is not a grey area. The GM is not entitled to rule how they like on it any more than they can rule that animated shields are broken and therefore are illegal (don't work). It's simply not an area that is at all ambiguous and GMs making up their own rules is not something that should be torelated in LG. as you say it's not ambiguous, it's just left totally open, swingin in the breeze. animated shields tell you what they do, how many enhancement bonusi, that two don't stack for armor etc.. so what's the rule, as many as i can cast per day into 1000gp, that's the only limits i can find. at 25gp per first and 12gp 5sp per zero, including pearls, wands specialization, 20 int,this 42 spell scroll needs a truck to carry it. at what point does it become a spellbook?? Can i use my access for spellbook Protects on it?? Can i use quick draw?? Does it take 42 standard actions to get out?? Can i make a giant scroll and just keep adding spells whenever i find them?? Can my cohort draw it and everyone else read whichever spell they want?? Does it take a standard action to find every spell?? I'm a Mystic Theurge can i put Divine and Arcane spells on it?? As its 42 ft long when its rolled up does it count as total cover?? Yes these questions are absurd but i came up with them quicker than i typed them so imagine how many sillier ones I'm going to have to adjudicate on in every game. This is the ultyimate grey area, and being LE i would luuurve to abuse the hell out of it, but that would just waste everyones table time with another boring argument, cause there isn't anywhere in any book that i can say,"there, see it's true" katrick
_metz_ 05-31-07, 12:53 PM	as you say it's not ambiguous, it's just left totally open, swingin in the breeze. animated shields tell you what they do, how many enhancement bonusi, that two don't stack for armor etc.. so what's the rule, as many as i can cast per day into 1000gp, that's the only limits i can find. at 25gp per first and 12gp 5sp per zero, including pearls, wands specialization, 20 int,this 42 spell scroll needs a truck to carry it. at what point does it become a spellbook?? Can i use my access for spellbook Protects on it?? Can i use quick draw?? Does it take 42 standard actions to get out?? Can i make a giant scroll and just keep adding spells whenever i find them?? Can my cohort draw it and everyone else read whichever spell they want?? Does it take a standard action to find every spell?? I'm a Mystic Theurge can i put Divine and Arcane spells on it?? As its 42 ft long when its rolled up does it count as total cover?? Yes these questions are absurd but i came up with them quicker than i typed them so imagine how many sillier ones I'm going to have to adjudicate on in every game. This is the ultyimate grey area, and being LE i would luuurve to abuse the hell out of it, but that would just waste everyones table time with another boring argument, cause there isn't anywhere in any book that i can say,"there, see it's true" katrick *applauds. I hate the scroll arguement, it comes up periodically, and nothing is going to change about it. I like the 6 spell 'suggestion' by triad, most people agree it's a good idea, as it stops a lot of the craziness that can occur, and still remains highly useful. Thats the good thing about Triad and LG rules, by helping the core rulebooks in some Grey areas and so on, the game is clearer, less open to exploitation, and more fun for the majority.
kjenks 05-31-07, 01:00 PM	Being willing to put up with wrong decisions from GMs at the table does not make it ok to propagate those bad decisions and tell people they are ok. Clearly there will be GMs who think this and want to impose it. You *should* protest when they do so. Posting on here that they exist is fine: saying they are "entitled" to make those rulings is absolutely wrong. Well, ya see, the LGCS makes it pretty clear. The judge at the table is entitled to make up rulings and has a whole lot of discretion. The players are entitled to discuss things and appeal certain rulings (like PC death, per page 15), but the players must respect the decisions of the GM. Try searching the LGCS for the phrase "GM" and see what pops up. LGCS, page 5 === Guidelines for Ethical Play In LG, we expect you to conduct yourself in a manner suitable to group cooperation and enjoyment. Specifically: • Consider the fun of the whole group when playing. Be considerate of others’ enjoyment of the game. • Play fairly and honestly. • Follow both the spirit and letter of the rules. • Respect the decisions of your GM. • Do not share or seek knowledge of an adventure prior to play. === If you don't like what's happening, you can stand up and walk away from a table. You can vow (loudly and often) never to play with that GM again. You can inform convention organizers, the Triad, the Circle, and whomever will listen to you ranting. You can be a putz. But you have to live by those Guidelines for Ethical Play as best as you can, just as the GM has to live by the core rules and campaign rules, as best as he can. And obeying the Guidelines for Ethical Play -- and obeying the rules of courtesy and decorum -- puts some limits on how much of a putz you can be. So I agree that is not "ok to propagate those bad decisions and tell people they are ok." One of the things we use these message boards for is for all of us to come to a better understanding of the rules. And that includes GMs whose opinions I -- respectfully -- disagree with.
katrick 05-31-07, 01:35 PM	If the DM rules the item is not legal, don't you need to remove the item from your MIL rather than just not use it? After all, according to them, it's an illegal item. They don't have a basis for this of course, but that's besides the point. In general, what happens when a judge says that an item you have is not valid? Do you just not use it? That seems wrong to me. -James You can point them to the DMG pg237 very bottom and the FAQ pg50 very botom, to prove it's not an Illegal item. And then page 9 of the LGCS under MIL's which states: "If the validity of an item on your MIL is questionable, your GM may deny you from using it in the adventure." So you just don't use it, but they can't make you scrap it. And after you've shown them the FAQ, they'll probably notice the six spells it mentions and rule that way. Katrick
Timlagor 05-31-07, 09:46 PM	The GM is entitled to impose suitable penalties for excessively large scrolls. They are not entitled to deny you the ability to craft or use them. Mixing Divine and Arcane Spells on a Scroll arises the moment you allow 2 spells which I'm pretty sure no one is trying to stop now and I'm not sure that's there's a definitive answer but I see no reason not to allow it.
Cardinal Teplin 06-07-07, 09:26 AM	If the DM rules the item is not legal, don't you need to remove the item from your MIL rather than just not use it? After all, according to them, it's an illegal item. They don't have a basis for this of course, but that's besides the point. In general, what happens when a judge says that an item you have is not valid? Do you just not use it? What else can you do? You can't simply cross it off from your MIL, because then it looks like you used it, which is false accounting. You could make some complicated annotation like 'removed as illegal scroll' or something that make it clear it's a ruling rather than an in-game event. I suppose the judge could force you to make another MIL to his specifications but I don't see that he's bother. What he can't do, of course, is simply confiscate or alter your MIL for you, unless you are entirely happy for him to do so. For any ruling that is going to last longer than a single table, some higher authority needs to get involved, generally the Senior GM (for other games in that convention) or the Triad. Otherwise, yes, you just don't use the item for that adventure, and the next judge you come across is free to agree with or disagree with the previous ruling. Some judges get frustrated with this, and want to deface ARs or MILs with big pen marks to try and encourage people to use their ruling on other table, but there are sharp limits to their authority, and it ends at the table, and the documentation they sign (and the AR). That's just how the game works. And it's really the only way it could work, if you think about it logically. Future judges can't practically be bound by the decisions of previous ones.
Mattastrophic 06-07-07, 10:13 AM	Side question: And what happens if a certain GM thinks your entire character is illegal? What then? -Matt
Lupo 06-07-07, 11:44 AM	Side question: And what happens if a certain GM thinks your entire character is illegal? What then? -Matt the DM has the right to say NO to a character if he thinks is "illegal", but he and the player should contact the triad asap to avoid the following. DM: hey, last time i told you i don't see yours character "you-name-it" as a legal option in LG, how do you dare to still have/use/carry/ride/etc. it??? Player: but other DMs are fine with it DM: i don't care a ***, i declare your character illegal and will report you to the triad. end of a sad story, especially when said character was needed to form a legal table or a certain APL. some DMs won't give a **** even on triad's ruling and advice, simple solution - don't have them as a DM - these DMs are out of the campaign after a short time, as soon as enough players, con and game organizers have heard about them or experienced them. ciao martin m.
_metz_ 06-08-07, 01:33 AM	A DM can exclude a player from the game - but then its a triad decision. If the character is in violation of the LGCS though you really don't have a leg to stand on.