New & (Slightly) Improved Non-Duelist Duelist [Archive] - Wizards Community

New & (Slightly) Improved Non-Duelist Duelist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LachlarlanIII
01-10-07, 01:14 PM High Elf Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Champion of Corellon 2/Dervish 6
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8

1: Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack
2: Swashbuckler 2:
3: Swashbuckler 3: EWP* (Elven Courtblade)
4: Fighter 1: Con 14, Combat Expertise
5: Fighter 2: Dodge
6: Fighter 3: Mounted Combat
7: Figther 4: Weapon Focus (Elven Courtblade)
8: Champion of Corellon 1: Dex 17, Mobility
9: Champion of Corellon 2: Elusive Target
10: Dervish 1:
11: Dervish 2:
12: Dervish 3: Dex 18, Spring Attack, WS** (Elven Courtblade)
13: Dervish 4:
14: Dervish 5:
15: Dervish 6: Improved Toughness

*Exotic Weapon Proficiency
**Weapon Specialization

This is a slightly stronger variation on the Duelist build I posted earlier.

This build's limitations include fairly low hit points and abilities that don't work when facing creatures immune to critical hits.

These limitations are offset by a fairly high AC and by moderate/high saves.

Equipment to keep an eye out for are +6 Str/+6 Int/+6 Dex gear and Celestial Armor.

As much as I hate to remove Duelist, I just find that it isn't a viable class.
jstorrie
01-10-07, 01:50 PM Is getting Int to damage that important for this character? Why not just go Swash1/Ftr4?
Nutation
01-10-07, 02:03 PM Much better build. I question some of the feat choices.

Weapon Finesse isn't really necessary, but it's free. Don't overlook that you can carry and use nonfinessable weapons such as a guisarme or greatclub.

Improved Initiative is for bards, battlefield control wizards, and rogues who roll a bucketful of sneak attack dice. How about Improved Trip or Improved Toughness?

Improved Critical is ok, but if you're worried about undead and such that are immune to criticals, you might be better off just taking Weapon Spec.
Alpha_Nerd
01-10-07, 02:04 PM I think Improved init is great, but I'd rather have elusive target at 9. That's when you need to actually worry about monsters power attacking.
CrystalBlue
01-10-07, 02:18 PM I still think you would be much better off with Improved Weapon Familiarity. I'm sure the Champion PrC only means that you have to have proficiency with the weapon and not have the EWP feat for it exclusively. But...that's just what would make sense to me.
LachlarlanIII
01-10-07, 02:18 PM Switched Elusive Target to 9th level feat.

Switched Improved Critical for Weapon Specialization. I'll just have to find a Scabbard of Keen Edges.

Switched Improved Initiative for Improved Toughness at 15th.

jstorrie: Every bit of damage helps, and having 3 sources of extra damage (Str, Dex, and Int) just makes the character stronger.

It does limit his spending somewhat though.

Nutation: Weap. Finesse is actually necessary in this build. He's a Dex fighter at the heart of it. And Elegant Strike only works with Finesseable weapons.

But as you said, it's a free feat so it's really a non-issue.
LachlarlanIII
01-10-07, 02:25 PM I still think you would be much better off with Improved Weapon Familiarity. I'm sure the Champion PrC only means that you have to have proficiency with the weapon and not have the EWP feat for it exclusively. But...that's just what would make sense to me.

I'd rather not have a DM say, you can't actually do that because you don't, per the RAW, qualify for your PrC.

Besides, his main attacks are going to be with his Courtblade. If he needs a secondary melee weapon, it'll be a Scimitar.

Dervish Dance only works with slashing weapons, which don't include the Thinblade or Lightblade.

Insightful Strike only work with light/finesseable weapons which both the Courtblade and, for a Dervish, the Scimitar.

And finally, Elegant Strike works for both the Courtblade and Scimitar.

So, being able to use the Thinblade via IWF wouldn't actually help the build any.
Alpha_Nerd
01-10-07, 02:34 PM I don't think non-crittable things are going to be that big of a deal for you. You still power attack with a d10 2-hander. The saves aren't bad as dervish and I think champion both have good will saves. Seems like a solid character.
Iswald
01-14-07, 01:53 AM I'd rather not have a DM say, you can't actually do that because you don't, per the RAW, qualify for your PrC.

Per the RAW improved weapon familiarity does qualify. Just check the back of CW, page 155, bottom left paragraph.

Weapon specialization is better than getting +2 damage from your int, unless you are going to boost your int somehow. +2 damage all the time is more useful than +2 damage some of the time, perhaps even better than +3 some of the time depending upon what you fight regularly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LachlarlanIII 01-10-07, 01:14 PM	High Elf Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Champion of Corellon 2/Dervish 6 Str 14, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8 1: Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack 2: Swashbuckler 2: 3: Swashbuckler 3: EWP* (Elven Courtblade) 4: Fighter 1: Con 14, Combat Expertise 5: Fighter 2: Dodge 6: Fighter 3: Mounted Combat 7: Figther 4: Weapon Focus (Elven Courtblade) 8: Champion of Corellon 1: Dex 17, Mobility 9: Champion of Corellon 2: Elusive Target 10: Dervish 1: 11: Dervish 2: 12: Dervish 3: Dex 18, Spring Attack, WS** (Elven Courtblade) 13: Dervish 4: 14: Dervish 5: 15: Dervish 6: Improved Toughness Exotic Weapon Proficiency *Weapon Specialization This is a slightly stronger variation on the Duelist build I posted earlier. This build's limitations include fairly low hit points and abilities that don't work when facing creatures immune to critical hits. These limitations are offset by a fairly high AC and by moderate/high saves. Equipment to keep an eye out for are +6 Str/+6 Int/+6 Dex gear and Celestial Armor. As much as I hate to remove Duelist, I just find that it isn't a viable class.
jstorrie 01-10-07, 01:50 PM	Is getting Int to damage that important for this character? Why not just go Swash1/Ftr4?
Nutation 01-10-07, 02:03 PM	Much better build. I question some of the feat choices. Weapon Finesse isn't really necessary, but it's free. Don't overlook that you can carry and use nonfinessable weapons such as a guisarme or greatclub. Improved Initiative is for bards, battlefield control wizards, and rogues who roll a bucketful of sneak attack dice. How about Improved Trip or Improved Toughness? Improved Critical is ok, but if you're worried about undead and such that are immune to criticals, you might be better off just taking Weapon Spec.
Alpha_Nerd 01-10-07, 02:04 PM	I think Improved init is great, but I'd rather have elusive target at 9. That's when you need to actually worry about monsters power attacking.
CrystalBlue 01-10-07, 02:18 PM	I still think you would be much better off with Improved Weapon Familiarity. I'm sure the Champion PrC only means that you have to have proficiency with the weapon and not have the EWP feat for it exclusively. But...that's just what would make sense to me.
LachlarlanIII 01-10-07, 02:18 PM	Switched Elusive Target to 9th level feat. Switched Improved Critical for Weapon Specialization. I'll just have to find a Scabbard of Keen Edges. Switched Improved Initiative for Improved Toughness at 15th. jstorrie: Every bit of damage helps, and having 3 sources of extra damage (Str, Dex, and Int) just makes the character stronger. It does limit his spending somewhat though. Nutation: Weap. Finesse is actually necessary in this build. He's a Dex fighter at the heart of it. And Elegant Strike only works with Finesseable weapons. But as you said, it's a free feat so it's really a non-issue.
LachlarlanIII 01-10-07, 02:25 PM	I still think you would be much better off with Improved Weapon Familiarity. I'm sure the Champion PrC only means that you have to have proficiency with the weapon and not have the EWP feat for it exclusively. But...that's just what would make sense to me. I'd rather not have a DM say, you can't actually do that because you don't, per the RAW, qualify for your PrC. Besides, his main attacks are going to be with his Courtblade. If he needs a secondary melee weapon, it'll be a Scimitar. Dervish Dance only works with slashing weapons, which don't include the Thinblade or Lightblade. Insightful Strike only work with light/finesseable weapons which both the Courtblade and, for a Dervish, the Scimitar. And finally, Elegant Strike works for both the Courtblade and Scimitar. So, being able to use the Thinblade via IWF wouldn't actually help the build any.
Alpha_Nerd 01-10-07, 02:34 PM	I don't think non-crittable things are going to be that big of a deal for you. You still power attack with a d10 2-hander. The saves aren't bad as dervish and I think champion both have good will saves. Seems like a solid character.
Iswald 01-14-07, 01:53 AM	I'd rather not have a DM say, you can't actually do that because you don't, per the RAW, qualify for your PrC. Per the RAW improved weapon familiarity does qualify. Just check the back of CW, page 155, bottom left paragraph. Weapon specialization is better than getting +2 damage from your int, unless you are going to boost your int somehow. +2 damage all the time is more useful than +2 damage some of the time, perhaps even better than +3 some of the time depending upon what you fight regularly.