Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrystalBlue 02-23-07, 01:24 PM	With the beguiler, it just looks too tempting. I love the spells they get and the skill points that they recive go great to make an awesome arcane toolbox. Problem is, will it work very well? And would I have to take a few levels of something else or could I go full beguiler? Here's what I've planed on so far. Patrick "Pat The Baker" Gearlock Gnome Beguiler Str: 6 Dex: 14 Con: 12 Int: 18 Wis: 8 Cha: 12 Feat 1: Spell Focus (Illusion) Feat 3: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) Feat 6: Craft Wonderous Feat 9: Craft Wands I would put most of my points into Open Lock, Disable Device, Tumble, and Search. I'd also be getting a liberal sprinkle of any knowledged they have (no book here so I can't remember what they have access to). Tell me if this will work pure class or if I'll have to cross class. PrC's are fine, so long as I get close to full spell progression out of them. :D
UMiskatonic 02-23-07, 01:42 PM	Switch Dex and Con. You'll need a fort save and hit points more than you need +1 AC. There are plenty of magic items and spells that give you armor class. Other than that, you don't 'need' a prestige class. No one does. Might you want one? Perhaps. Answer this question for me, and I can help you find one: What's the difference between an arcanist, and an 'arcane toolbox?'
Jay_Ibero_911 02-23-07, 02:03 PM	With the beguiler, it just looks too tempting. I love the spells they get and the skill points that they recive go great to make an awesome arcane toolbox. Problem is, will it work very well? And would I have to take a few levels of something else or could I go full beguiler? Here's what I've planed on so far. Patrick "Pat The Baker" Gearlock Gnome Beguiler Str: 6 Dex: 14 Con: 12 Int: 18 Wis: 8 Cha: 12 Feat 1: Spell Focus (Illusion) Feat 3: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) Feat 6: Craft Wonderous Feat 9: Craft Wands I would put most of my points into Open Lock, Disable Device, Tumble, and Search. I'd also be getting a liberal sprinkle of any knowledged they have (no book here so I can't remember what they have access to). Tell me if this will work pure class or if I'll have to cross class. PrC's are fine, so long as I get close to full spell progression out of them. :D Race:Gnome Alignment: STR-9 (1)-2 DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6)+2 INT-17 (13) WIS-8 (0) CHA-10 (2) This stat layout gives you MUCH more survivability as well as one odd stat to dump your 3 stat bumps into. It also gives you much better constitution. FOrget about craft wondrous item, and probably craft wand, as beguilers don't get the right spells for making most items, and since you are a spontaneous caster, have wands of spells you already have available won't help much. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus are nice though because most of your spells are Will Negates. I suggest you focus in enchantment, since most of your better spells at higher levels are of that school.
Vanadium 02-23-07, 02:12 PM	There is always Shadowcraft Mage. Without resorting to silly tricks, its easily one of the strongest (probably the strongest) prestige classes for a Beguiler. Heck, its a pretty strong class for anyone that can get into it and use its abilities. To get into it at a reasonable time (the same time as a sorceror), take a level of Unseen Seer before your 7th Beguiler level. That'll push back your advanced learning just enough to allow you to take a 4th level Shadow Spell with it. Mindbender is better, if you have the access for it.
Alpha_Nerd 02-23-07, 03:16 PM	I really like Arcane Disciple with Beguiler. It gives you something to do for encounters where you're facing guys immune to your illusions and enchantments. STR 8 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 15 (18) WIS 14 CHA 10 Gnome: Beguiler 12/Mindbender 1/Archmage 2 1 Spell Focus: Illusion 3 Greater Spell Focus: Illusion 6 Arcane Disciple: Healing 9 Spell Focus: Enchantment 12 Skill Focus: Spellcraft 15 Quicken Spell I don't like missing the 11th level advanced learning. It's necessary for Shadow Evocation.
Mommy was an Orc 02-23-07, 03:36 PM	FOrget about craft wondrous item, and probably craft wand, as beguilers don't get the right spells for making most items. Beguilers don't need the right spells for making CWI work. Use UMD on a scroll for crafting...
Jay_Ibero_911 02-23-07, 03:39 PM	Beguilers don't need the right spells for making CWI work. Use UMD on a scroll for crafting... I wouldn't count on it. Britt has said they are currently deciding whether or not you can craft using UMD on scrolls of spells you don't know.
Mommy was an Orc 02-23-07, 04:14 PM	It shouldn't be an issue - they're not generally allowed to modify the core rules like that. You're allowed to read scrolls/wands to make items and using UMD puts the spell on your spelllist. Those are both rules in PHB and DMG...
Jay_Ibero_911 02-23-07, 04:22 PM	It shouldn't be an issue - they're not generally allowed to modify the core rules like that. You're allowed to read scrolls/wands to make items and using UMD puts the spell on your spelllist. Those are both rules in PHB and DMG... Actually they aren't. Nowhere in the core rules does it specifically say you can use UMD to craft to begin with, that is already a modification of the rules in LG. UMD does NOT put the spell on your spell list. UMD merely lets use activate a magic item you would not normally be able to use. Also, several of the MIC feats specify that you need to KNOW the spell of the item you are creating, and if it's not on your spell list, you don't know the spell. For instance: CRAFT WAND [ITEM CREATION] Prerequisite: Caster level 5th. Benefit: You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a wand is its caster level x the spell level x 750 gp. To craft a wand, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges. Any wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the cost derived from the base price, you must expend fifty copies of the material component or pay fifty times the XP cost. So it is very much an area needing clarification for LG, and as mentioned they are already taking it under consideration.
Mommy was an Orc 02-23-07, 04:40 PM	Actually they aren't. Nowhere in the core rules does it specifically say you can use UMD to craft to begin with, that is already a modification of the rules in LG. UMD does NOT put the spell on your spell list. UMD merely lets use activate a magic item you would not normally be able to use. Also, several of the MIC feats specify that you need to KNOW the spell of the item you are creating, and if it's not on your spell list, you don't know the spell. Use a Scroll: If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite. Craft Wondrous Item [Item Creation] Prerequisite Caster level 3rd. Benefit You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet... Craft Wondrous Item says nothing about requiring that you know the spell, merely that you follow the Magic Item Basics of providing a spell prerequisite. And all you need to do that is use a spell-trigger item. Which you can do in a variety of ways, one of which is UMD. This is a Core rule, not an LG rule.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-23-07, 04:51 PM	Craft Wondrous Item says nothing about requiring that you know the spell, merely that you follow the Magic Item Basics of providing a spell prerequisite. And all you need to do that is use a spell-trigger item. Which you can do in a variety of ways, one of which is UMD. This is a Core rule, not an LG rule. Ok...I was lazy about actually looking all that up. Doesn't change the fact that they are considering not allowing it in LG. Take it up with Britt.
Mommy was an Orc 02-23-07, 04:55 PM	Ok...I was lazy about actually looking all that up. Doesn't change the fact that they are considering not allowing it in LG. Take it up with Britt. Can you show me the post where he says that?
Jay_Ibero_911 02-23-07, 07:32 PM	Can you show me the post where he says that? http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11542535&postcount=2
CrystalBlue 02-26-07, 01:18 PM	My biggest difference between an arcanist and an arcane toolbox is that an arcanist has the spells he needs to womp on people, detect objects, and generally be very useful in the arcane area. However, a toolbox will mix the best parts of an arcanist and a skill character. A rogue or bard that takes a few levels of a pure arcane casting class is awesome. Bards, however, don't get the actual casting that I'm looking for. They do get good spells, just not very much of them. Beguiler, though, looks to be an awesome class for what I want to do. I can have the skills to open locks, sneak around, and disable traps. I've also go arcane power that can help with illusions and enchantments. And I'm versitile enough to pull out a scroll of what I need at the time and auto UMD it at certain levels. Here are the reasons I've chossen what I have. Gnome - I like the extra Con and the +1 to all of my illusion spells. This rocks the sox. Str - I'm not a fighter, nor am I a pack mule. Anything I'll ever need will be in my Haversack when I get it. Dex - I'm a rogue/sorcerer combo, so my dex is gonna help me with sneaking around, unlocking stuff, and getting my hands into places they shouldn't be. ^.^ Con - I'm a gnome, so I get the +2 to con, and I'm getting d6 hit dice. I think for a caster rogue, that's good enough. Int - I want to max out both my casting and my skills. This is why I'm cranking this up to 18 right away. It was a toss-up between gnome and grey elf, for the 20, but I decided on gnome because I want to live passed level 3. ^.^ Wis - Come on...the only people that put points into this are divine casters and fighters that need that +1 Will save. :P Cha - I'm not going to be the talky bard, but I will be good enough to assist, or be a back-up talky person. So I'm not dumping this. As far as I'm concerned, I'm taking Craft Wonderous Item. The Craft Wand was just a wish and dream. ^.^ If they outlaw UMDing scrolls for that, which would be completely against the core rules in my opinion, then I'll switch it out or retrain.
Archwolf 02-26-07, 02:19 PM	I'm also down with beguiler (I went the grey elf route myself, though only 18 INT). But you may want to consider 2 more points for strength. Beguilers can wear light armor, but leather and, eventually, mithril chain shirts do weigh enough to take up a lot of your weight allowance. I'm running mine with an 8 strength entirely so I can wear leather and carry a rapier and a small amount of equipment. Anyway, something to check for.
Timlagor 02-27-07, 08:45 PM	They're not discussing whether you can craft like that. they are discussing whether youcan craft wands by UMDing scrolls. (last I read anyway) You're going to have to pick a few more skills to spend you points on: you get 6+Int per level you know! Beguiler is fine without PrC but there are several that suit nicely too. I can't see any good reason not to take trivial Knowledge with an 18Int Gnome.
CrystalBlue 02-28-07, 01:19 PM	Oh, don't worry. I am. ^.^ There's a reason he's called Pat the Baker. ^.^ Craft (Confections) Profession (Baker) Oh yeah...
CrystalBlue 02-28-07, 01:21 PM	And I don't see myself needing too much in fighting. What I'll lack in fighting, I'll make up for in utility and some battlefield control. Enchantments and illusions will go a long way if I use them right, and with my Int maxed out and me being a gnome, I can see all the fun things I can do. ^.^ Grey elf would be nice, but I don't like the hit to con I'll get, so that's why I'm focusing on gnome.
Timlagor 03-01-07, 09:26 AM	Trivial Knowledge is a Feat in Races of Stone that lets you roll twice on every knowledge check. It's true that Beguilers don't get all the Knowledge skills but I'd still recommend it.
Japangirl 03-01-07, 01:04 PM	Trivial Knowledge is gnome only, I'm pretty sure (at school atm so no books). Of course this isn't a problem for the OP, but for grey elf beguilers who might be reading this thread, be aware of that.