New Char input for Greyhawk Ruins [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Char input for Greyhawk Ruins [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mithrus
03-16-07, 09:22 PM Ok, my main is getting up in levels (just reached 11), and I'm not really happy with any of my alts. With the new Greyhawk Ruins coming this year, I have been debating what kind of class I wanted to play. I think it will be some sort of arcane class.

Among the builds I've seen that caught my interest, the gnome Beguiler/SCM and Wizard/SCM are coming on top. My home region is Furyondy, which has a goodly amount of undead, so illusions will be less then ideal in many circumstances. This could also be true for the Ruins. That being said, I still like to try it out.

Now, the advice part: Beguiler or Wizard/Illusionist. I am leaning towards Beguiler, but I am concerned it's a sub-par class in LG. I love having skills, but it's at a huge spell restriction cost (made up in late game via SCM), and item creation isn't really an option.

Pro for B:
I have always preferred having skills in general, and I think the "trick" with beguiler to qualify for SCM is clever. However, I would count myself pretty worthless as a caster until 4th level, as most of the 1st level spells are VERY gimp IMO. In a home campaign, I had a whisper gnome beguiler, who unfortunately met an unfortunate end before his prime, but was fun to play. Not having to preselect spells is also a huge headache alleviated. Having ability to wear mithril chain/breastplate a nice plus.

Pro for W:
Scribe Scroll, bonus MM feats, wide spell selection. Better knowledge skill selection. Option to take item creation feats. This latter is a HUGE consideration.

Which would you choose and why? Any additional considerations?
clik_ml
03-17-07, 01:12 AM Ehhh, I'm of the opinion that Beguilers have a rather kick-ass list of spells for a primary caster. Your calling them gimp spells makes me wonder if you're reading the same list.

At first level you have Color Spray, Silent Image, Sleep, and Charm Person. All major encounter winning spells.
2nd level spells gives you some notables: Glitter Dust, Minor Image, Silence
If you aren't winning encounters with these spells, then you aren't trying.
3rd: Deep Slumber, Hesitate, Glibness, Haste, (Invis Sphere+Zone of Silence= total stealth party with free communication)

You could likely cast just these spells for your whole career and be welcome at most tables. That you can do trapfinding and social skills is total gravy.

The beguiler class makes me want to burn my would-be geometer/trapfinder wizard. The only reason I won't is because I expect for there to be a glut of beguilers/shadowcraft mages since they are so incredibly awesome.
Mithrus
03-17-07, 07:03 AM Ehhh, I'm of the opinion that Beguilers have a rather kick-ass list of spells for a primary caster. Your calling them gimp spells makes me wonder if you're reading the same list.

Sorry, I was referring to the 1st level spells. IMO, Silent Image has extremely limited uses, but I will admit my creativity in this area is weak. Useful suggestions appreciated ;) I also was playing a character that didn't have an 18+ Int, and no spell focus, so his DCs were getting resisted too often :(
UMiskatonic
03-17-07, 07:53 AM As for the illusion spells, the number one problem with them is that players overreach.

Ex 1) I make a silent image of a Balor, so scary that the enemies fall over dead.
DM: Um, no.

Ex 2) I make a silent image of a wall of ice, from here to here. They'll have to spend two rounds going around, or a will save if they interact with it.
DM: Okay, you see the orcs split up, 3 going around each side.

-------------------------------------------------------------
So, Getting two turns to set up is a fantastic use of a 1st level spell. Generally, I try to create things that no one would want to interact with, like walls, fog, difficult terrain, etc. They generally go around.

Using it to duplicate other spells is also good. If the first scorching ray did real damage, the silent image of a scorching ray will be more believable.

I don't try to create 'monsters' until I have sound, and I don't kid myself that an illusionary monster will end an encounter. It's a distraction, and buys us key set-up time. If it absorbs an attack, that's one less attack that the fighter takes in the face.

Don't forget that a LOT of illusion spells are things like invisibility, mirror image, etc. There's more to the school than "Presto, I create an Illusion".
clik_ml
03-17-07, 12:47 PM Color Spray and Sleep can simply win/end encounters at low APL. You catch 2 or 3 bad guys in a cone with color spray and you're almost certain to take out at least one of them. With a gnome with an 18 int, you're packing a 16 DC will save, which will work most times at APL 2 and 4. Sleep likewise is decent for when the critters are too far away for a Color Spray. The 1 round casting time isn't that bad at low levels when enemies have much fewer options to interrupt with.

Silent Image can be used to split up enemies, or to provide concealment as well.

A silent image of mist around team good guys will work as a sculpted obscuring mist, which your team can potentially interact with and ignore, whilst having full concealment from the enemy.

Some situational stuff makes silent image better. Hiding a pit or faking a bridge over a drop can be quite mischevious if you get the terrain for it.

Charm Person can work nicely in many low APL encounters when your common enemy is a humanoid thug underling who can give info on his employer behind the big bad plot.

Beguilers are all about making enemies fail their saving throws, so it's important to have a decent casting stat.

By level 9 or so, item creation feats (esp. wonderous items) do become more useful to a beguiler simply because you can start reliably making UMD checks to cast scrolls and still save money on plenty of items in that fashion.
Zanzibax
03-17-07, 06:55 PM Sorry, I was referring to the 1st level spells. IMO, Silent Image has extremely limited uses, but I will admit my creativity in this area is weak. Useful suggestions appreciated ;) I also was playing a character that didn't have an 18+ Int, and no spell focus, so his DCs were getting resisted too often :(

Yeah...most people don't understand illusions.

Silent Image is actually unlimited.

Which is why my DM hates me and it is one of my favorite spells.
cetiken
03-17-07, 08:22 PM A vicious use of Silent Image that my group has come up with is what we term the 'Pot Trick' basically you create the image of a pot thats stuck on their heads. Since the illusion is visual only they can't see anything (due to a pot covering their eyes) effectively blinding sighted enemies. Shouting something like "Look out! Falling cookware!" is strictly optional. As already mentioned, Color Spray works wonders even causing a Balor to drop his weapons (on the unlikely event he fails his save and you overcome SR).

I'm curious though, why not 18 int? Do you like enemies making their saves or perhaps you feel that you've got plenty of skill points and you don't need any more? Personally I like my DCs as high as possible and my skilled guys with as many fun skills as possible. I could easily spend 12 skill points / level as a beguiler and wish for more.

In addition to click_ml's comments on beguiler spell Dispel Magic is one of the best spells on the level 3 beguiler list. That spell alone can turn tragedy into victory.
Sieylianna
03-17-07, 09:29 PM A vicious use of Silent Image that my group has come up with is what we term the 'Pot Trick' basically you create the image of a pot thats stuck on their heads. Since the illusion is visual only they can't see anything (due to a pot covering their eyes) effectively blinding sighted enemies.

Not at my tables. It's visual only, there's no tactile aspect or weight of the pot itself. They're automatically interacting with it by your description. So they're going to be making saving throws with huge bonuses.

Ed
clik_ml
03-17-07, 10:02 PM Not at my tables. It's visual only, there's no tactile aspect or weight of the pot itself. They're automatically interacting with it by your description. So they're going to be making saving throws with huge bonuses.

Heh, that's why it's supposed to be a cloud of mist/swarm of mosquitoes/outright darkness covering just their heads, instead of a pot. Then the DM is kind of reaching to give any sort of bonuses, especially large ones.

The spell only works within the cubes that define the effect area, so they can easily walk outside of the 10' cubes you lay down, but then at least you've directed their movement in a beneficial manner.

I haven't had call to use the head-covering illusions mostly because I don't like frustrating DMs and haven't been in danger of TPK with any character capable of the trick. If things start turning sour, that's when you bring out tactics like that to even things out.

If you are planning on doing a fair amount of images (be they silent, minor, major, programmed, etc.), then it is usually a good idea to run a few of your tactics past the DM before the game starts to get an idea of what will fly and what won't. Some DMs may nerf you by having casters make spellcraft checks then tell their allies that there are illusions, and grant huge circumstancial bonuses to the ally saves (or let them auto-ignore some illusions). So beware and be aware.
cetiken
03-17-07, 10:34 PM Not at my tables. It's visual only, there's no tactile aspect or weight of the pot itself. They're automatically interacting with it by your description. So they're going to be making saving throws with huge bonuses.

Just curious where you're getting the huge bonuses bit from. I can find nothing in the PHB that gives you a bonus to will saves just cause you know its not real. 8) After all your eyes keep reporting the presence of a pot. And I'd personally argue that a fog would be interacting just as much. I do like the Ice Wall though and it could be even more discourageing as a Wall of Fire. Or spiky plants or whatever.

I fully agree that they get a save every round, but when your DC at level 1 is 17 (18 int, Gnome, and Spell Focus) your average squad of APL 2 thugs is gona have a few blind members for at least a few rounds.

Another trick is to create illusionary rough terrain (like spiky rocks) to prevent pouncing monsters from trying to charge you.
Timlagor
03-17-07, 11:18 PM The Beguiler has an outstanding spell list. (the only thing it's missing at 1st level if Grease ...which they spcifically mention in the Beguiler tactics section *grrr*)

We played an APL 10 game recently where a monster pretended to summon another monster (same type) next to us which cost us at least 2 actions just by standing there.
Jamesps
03-17-07, 11:18 PM It should be noted that you do have to concentrate to move the illusion with the victims, so this would tie up your wizard for the duration. Of course since Silent image has a duration of Concentration, people that were using this technique were probably already being tied up for the duration anyhow.
Mithrus
03-18-07, 02:12 AM I'm curious though, why not 18 int? Do you like enemies making their saves or perhaps you feel that you've got plenty of skill points and you don't need any more? Personally I like my DCs as high as possible and my skilled guys with as many fun skills as possible. I could easily spend 12 skill points / level as a beguiler and wish for more.It was a home campaign, and I got plenty of 12-14 rolls (4d6 drop lowest), but highest was 16.
Sieylianna
03-18-07, 11:48 AM If you are planning on doing a fair amount of images (be they silent, minor, major, programmed, etc.), then it is usually a good idea to run a few of your tactics past the DM before the game starts to get an idea of what will fly and what won't. Some DMs may nerf you by having casters make spellcraft checks then tell their allies that there are illusions, and grant huge circumstancial bonuses to the ally saves (or let them auto-ignore some illusions). So beware and be aware.

That's why I won't use illusions in living campaigns. Every judge and every table is different in how they handle illusions. I want things to behave predictably, not at the whim of the judge. I don't want to waste prep time, or even worse game time, discussing how my character's abilities are going to function during the round.

Ed
Sieylianna
03-18-07, 11:56 AM Just curious where you're getting the huge bonuses bit from. I can find nothing in the PHB that gives you a bonus to will saves just cause you know its not real. 8)

You have a +4 bonus if someone else saves versus the illusion and tells you that it isn't real. That's a good starting point. One sense is telling you that there is a pot there, but both your sense of touch and hearing are telling you that the pot doesn't exist.

Ed
cetiken
03-18-07, 12:09 PM You have a +4 bonus if someone else saves versus the illusion and tells you that it isn't real. That's a good starting point. One sense is telling you that there is a pot there, but both your sense of touch and hearing are telling you that the pot doesn't exist.

Please cite your source for this rule.

Ah. NM. I found what you're referring to. It is probably not the best trick, but it may buy you a few rounds of confusion, and if you've got a rogue in position to act immediatly after you it can still be effective. A nice thing about figments is that it can effect those nasty immune to mind affecting abilities.

It was a home campaign, and I got plenty of 12-14 rolls (4d6 drop lowest), but highest was 16.

Not to be rude, but isn't this the wrong forum then?
Morgen
03-21-07, 02:25 PM It's also somewhere in there that if you interact with some illusions you don't even have to make a save at all. So the effect of trying to grab the pot and instead ending up touching it's head should automatically cancel it out. Assuming your opponent isn't like INT 6- or something.
Mithrus
03-22-07, 02:21 AM Not to be rude, but isn't this the wrong forum then?Sorry if it wasn't clear. I had my first experience in playing a beguiler during a home campaign, where my Int was only a 16. This made my DCs a bit low (+stat items were rare), skewing my perspective on the usefulness of the 1st level spells list. Given that LG allows for more control, I am torn between whether a beguiler or wizard/illusionist would be better.

Also, would it be feasible to use the silent image spell to simulate an ice slick, ie grease spell? Am I correct in thinking that it would require some sort of tactile element to the illusion in order to pull it of?
Timlagor
03-22-07, 09:54 AM 1) You dont need a save if it is proved to you that you are seeing an illusion

2) You could make an illusion of a grease patch but it would not be slippery: enemies might well avoid entering it though and may even stop charges short if you readied it ahead of them.
bitznarf
03-22-07, 10:47 AM Perhaps this series of articles by Skip Williams might help you decide which would be more useful. It also covers the rules governing illusions. For example, your silent image spell doesn't actually have any substance to it, thus it can't actually cause someone to slip and fall.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a
Zanzibax
03-23-07, 09:39 AM Perhaps this series of articles by Skip Williams might help you decide which would be more useful. It also covers the rules governing illusions. For example, your silent image spell doesn't actually have any substance to it, thus it can't actually cause someone to slip and fall.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a

Unless it's concealing something slippery and/or deep.
Rerednaw
03-23-07, 10:59 AM ...Now, the advice part: Beguiler or Wizard/Illusionist. ...Which would you choose and why? Any additional considerations?

For me, party composition is a consideration.

If there isn't a full arcane, I'd go wizard. I would not specialize for the same reason. If there is an arcane, then I'd go beguiler for the reasons you mentioned.

Beguilers are essentially specialist sorcerors with a superior spell list, more hit points, more skills, more weapon profs, with a casting stat that is very useful (int), and armored casting.
cetiken
03-24-07, 08:58 AM Thats a very usefull series of articles, Thanks.

As a side note, I think beguiler is actually better at replacing the group Rogue than replacing the group Wizard.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mithrus 03-16-07, 09:22 PM	Ok, my main is getting up in levels (just reached 11), and I'm not really happy with any of my alts. With the new Greyhawk Ruins coming this year, I have been debating what kind of class I wanted to play. I think it will be some sort of arcane class. Among the builds I've seen that caught my interest, the gnome Beguiler/SCM and Wizard/SCM are coming on top. My home region is Furyondy, which has a goodly amount of undead, so illusions will be less then ideal in many circumstances. This could also be true for the Ruins. That being said, I still like to try it out. Now, the advice part: Beguiler or Wizard/Illusionist. I am leaning towards Beguiler, but I am concerned it's a sub-par class in LG. I love having skills, but it's at a huge spell restriction cost (made up in late game via SCM), and item creation isn't really an option. Pro for B: I have always preferred having skills in general, and I think the "trick" with beguiler to qualify for SCM is clever. However, I would count myself pretty worthless as a caster until 4th level, as most of the 1st level spells are VERY gimp IMO. In a home campaign, I had a whisper gnome beguiler, who unfortunately met an unfortunate end before his prime, but was fun to play. Not having to preselect spells is also a huge headache alleviated. Having ability to wear mithril chain/breastplate a nice plus. Pro for W: Scribe Scroll, bonus MM feats, wide spell selection. Better knowledge skill selection. Option to take item creation feats. This latter is a HUGE consideration. Which would you choose and why? Any additional considerations?
clik_ml 03-17-07, 01:12 AM	Ehhh, I'm of the opinion that Beguilers have a rather kick-ass list of spells for a primary caster. Your calling them gimp spells makes me wonder if you're reading the same list. At first level you have Color Spray, Silent Image, Sleep, and Charm Person. All major encounter winning spells. 2nd level spells gives you some notables: Glitter Dust, Minor Image, Silence If you aren't winning encounters with these spells, then you aren't trying. 3rd: Deep Slumber, Hesitate, Glibness, Haste, (Invis Sphere+Zone of Silence= total stealth party with free communication) You could likely cast just these spells for your whole career and be welcome at most tables. That you can do trapfinding and social skills is total gravy. The beguiler class makes me want to burn my would-be geometer/trapfinder wizard. The only reason I won't is because I expect for there to be a glut of beguilers/shadowcraft mages since they are so incredibly awesome.
Mithrus 03-17-07, 07:03 AM	Ehhh, I'm of the opinion that Beguilers have a rather kick-ass list of spells for a primary caster. Your calling them gimp spells makes me wonder if you're reading the same list. Sorry, I was referring to the 1st level spells. IMO, Silent Image has extremely limited uses, but I will admit my creativity in this area is weak. Useful suggestions appreciated ;) I also was playing a character that didn't have an 18+ Int, and no spell focus, so his DCs were getting resisted too often :(
UMiskatonic 03-17-07, 07:53 AM	As for the illusion spells, the number one problem with them is that players overreach. Ex 1) I make a silent image of a Balor, so scary that the enemies fall over dead. DM: Um, no. Ex 2) I make a silent image of a wall of ice, from here to here. They'll have to spend two rounds going around, or a will save if they interact with it. DM: Okay, you see the orcs split up, 3 going around each side. ------------------------------------------------------------- So, Getting two turns to set up is a fantastic use of a 1st level spell. Generally, I try to create things that no one would want to interact with, like walls, fog, difficult terrain, etc. They generally go around. Using it to duplicate other spells is also good. If the first scorching ray did real damage, the silent image of a scorching ray will be more believable. I don't try to create 'monsters' until I have sound, and I don't kid myself that an illusionary monster will end an encounter. It's a distraction, and buys us key set-up time. If it absorbs an attack, that's one less attack that the fighter takes in the face. Don't forget that a LOT of illusion spells are things like invisibility, mirror image, etc. There's more to the school than "Presto, I create an Illusion".
clik_ml 03-17-07, 12:47 PM	Color Spray and Sleep can simply win/end encounters at low APL. You catch 2 or 3 bad guys in a cone with color spray and you're almost certain to take out at least one of them. With a gnome with an 18 int, you're packing a 16 DC will save, which will work most times at APL 2 and 4. Sleep likewise is decent for when the critters are too far away for a Color Spray. The 1 round casting time isn't that bad at low levels when enemies have much fewer options to interrupt with. Silent Image can be used to split up enemies, or to provide concealment as well. A silent image of mist around team good guys will work as a sculpted obscuring mist, which your team can potentially interact with and ignore, whilst having full concealment from the enemy. Some situational stuff makes silent image better. Hiding a pit or faking a bridge over a drop can be quite mischevious if you get the terrain for it. Charm Person can work nicely in many low APL encounters when your common enemy is a humanoid thug underling who can give info on his employer behind the big bad plot. Beguilers are all about making enemies fail their saving throws, so it's important to have a decent casting stat. By level 9 or so, item creation feats (esp. wonderous items) do become more useful to a beguiler simply because you can start reliably making UMD checks to cast scrolls and still save money on plenty of items in that fashion.
Zanzibax 03-17-07, 06:55 PM	Sorry, I was referring to the 1st level spells. IMO, Silent Image has extremely limited uses, but I will admit my creativity in this area is weak. Useful suggestions appreciated ;) I also was playing a character that didn't have an 18+ Int, and no spell focus, so his DCs were getting resisted too often :( Yeah...most people don't understand illusions. Silent Image is actually unlimited. Which is why my DM hates me and it is one of my favorite spells.
cetiken 03-17-07, 08:22 PM	A vicious use of Silent Image that my group has come up with is what we term the 'Pot Trick' basically you create the image of a pot thats stuck on their heads. Since the illusion is visual only they can't see anything (due to a pot covering their eyes) effectively blinding sighted enemies. Shouting something like "Look out! Falling cookware!" is strictly optional. As already mentioned, Color Spray works wonders even causing a Balor to drop his weapons (on the unlikely event he fails his save and you overcome SR). I'm curious though, why not 18 int? Do you like enemies making their saves or perhaps you feel that you've got plenty of skill points and you don't need any more? Personally I like my DCs as high as possible and my skilled guys with as many fun skills as possible. I could easily spend 12 skill points / level as a beguiler and wish for more. In addition to click_ml's comments on beguiler spell Dispel Magic is one of the best spells on the level 3 beguiler list. That spell alone can turn tragedy into victory.
Sieylianna 03-17-07, 09:29 PM	A vicious use of Silent Image that my group has come up with is what we term the 'Pot Trick' basically you create the image of a pot thats stuck on their heads. Since the illusion is visual only they can't see anything (due to a pot covering their eyes) effectively blinding sighted enemies. Not at my tables. It's visual only, there's no tactile aspect or weight of the pot itself. They're automatically interacting with it by your description. So they're going to be making saving throws with huge bonuses. Ed
clik_ml 03-17-07, 10:02 PM	Not at my tables. It's visual only, there's no tactile aspect or weight of the pot itself. They're automatically interacting with it by your description. So they're going to be making saving throws with huge bonuses. Heh, that's why it's supposed to be a cloud of mist/swarm of mosquitoes/outright darkness covering just their heads, instead of a pot. Then the DM is kind of reaching to give any sort of bonuses, especially large ones. The spell only works within the cubes that define the effect area, so they can easily walk outside of the 10' cubes you lay down, but then at least you've directed their movement in a beneficial manner. I haven't had call to use the head-covering illusions mostly because I don't like frustrating DMs and haven't been in danger of TPK with any character capable of the trick. If things start turning sour, that's when you bring out tactics like that to even things out. If you are planning on doing a fair amount of images (be they silent, minor, major, programmed, etc.), then it is usually a good idea to run a few of your tactics past the DM before the game starts to get an idea of what will fly and what won't. Some DMs may nerf you by having casters make spellcraft checks then tell their allies that there are illusions, and grant huge circumstancial bonuses to the ally saves (or let them auto-ignore some illusions). So beware and be aware.
cetiken 03-17-07, 10:34 PM	Not at my tables. It's visual only, there's no tactile aspect or weight of the pot itself. They're automatically interacting with it by your description. So they're going to be making saving throws with huge bonuses. Just curious where you're getting the huge bonuses bit from. I can find nothing in the PHB that gives you a bonus to will saves just cause you know its not real. 8) After all your eyes keep reporting the presence of a pot. And I'd personally argue that a fog would be interacting just as much. I do like the Ice Wall though and it could be even more discourageing as a Wall of Fire. Or spiky plants or whatever. I fully agree that they get a save every round, but when your DC at level 1 is 17 (18 int, Gnome, and Spell Focus) your average squad of APL 2 thugs is gona have a few blind members for at least a few rounds. Another trick is to create illusionary rough terrain (like spiky rocks) to prevent pouncing monsters from trying to charge you.
Timlagor 03-17-07, 11:18 PM	The Beguiler has an outstanding spell list. (the only thing it's missing at 1st level if Grease ...which they spcifically mention in the Beguiler tactics section grrr) We played an APL 10 game recently where a monster pretended to summon another monster (same type) next to us which cost us at least 2 actions just by standing there.
Jamesps 03-17-07, 11:18 PM	It should be noted that you do have to concentrate to move the illusion with the victims, so this would tie up your wizard for the duration. Of course since Silent image has a duration of Concentration, people that were using this technique were probably already being tied up for the duration anyhow.
Mithrus 03-18-07, 02:12 AM	I'm curious though, why not 18 int? Do you like enemies making their saves or perhaps you feel that you've got plenty of skill points and you don't need any more? Personally I like my DCs as high as possible and my skilled guys with as many fun skills as possible. I could easily spend 12 skill points / level as a beguiler and wish for more.It was a home campaign, and I got plenty of 12-14 rolls (4d6 drop lowest), but highest was 16.
Sieylianna 03-18-07, 11:48 AM	If you are planning on doing a fair amount of images (be they silent, minor, major, programmed, etc.), then it is usually a good idea to run a few of your tactics past the DM before the game starts to get an idea of what will fly and what won't. Some DMs may nerf you by having casters make spellcraft checks then tell their allies that there are illusions, and grant huge circumstancial bonuses to the ally saves (or let them auto-ignore some illusions). So beware and be aware. That's why I won't use illusions in living campaigns. Every judge and every table is different in how they handle illusions. I want things to behave predictably, not at the whim of the judge. I don't want to waste prep time, or even worse game time, discussing how my character's abilities are going to function during the round. Ed
Sieylianna 03-18-07, 11:56 AM	Just curious where you're getting the huge bonuses bit from. I can find nothing in the PHB that gives you a bonus to will saves just cause you know its not real. 8) You have a +4 bonus if someone else saves versus the illusion and tells you that it isn't real. That's a good starting point. One sense is telling you that there is a pot there, but both your sense of touch and hearing are telling you that the pot doesn't exist. Ed
cetiken 03-18-07, 12:09 PM	You have a +4 bonus if someone else saves versus the illusion and tells you that it isn't real. That's a good starting point. One sense is telling you that there is a pot there, but both your sense of touch and hearing are telling you that the pot doesn't exist. Please cite your source for this rule. Ah. NM. I found what you're referring to. It is probably not the best trick, but it may buy you a few rounds of confusion, and if you've got a rogue in position to act immediatly after you it can still be effective. A nice thing about figments is that it can effect those nasty immune to mind affecting abilities. It was a home campaign, and I got plenty of 12-14 rolls (4d6 drop lowest), but highest was 16. Not to be rude, but isn't this the wrong forum then?
Morgen 03-21-07, 02:25 PM	It's also somewhere in there that if you interact with some illusions you don't even have to make a save at all. So the effect of trying to grab the pot and instead ending up touching it's head should automatically cancel it out. Assuming your opponent isn't like INT 6- or something.
Mithrus 03-22-07, 02:21 AM	Not to be rude, but isn't this the wrong forum then?Sorry if it wasn't clear. I had my first experience in playing a beguiler during a home campaign, where my Int was only a 16. This made my DCs a bit low (+stat items were rare), skewing my perspective on the usefulness of the 1st level spells list. Given that LG allows for more control, I am torn between whether a beguiler or wizard/illusionist would be better. Also, would it be feasible to use the silent image spell to simulate an ice slick, ie grease spell? Am I correct in thinking that it would require some sort of tactile element to the illusion in order to pull it of?
Timlagor 03-22-07, 09:54 AM	1) You dont need a save if it is proved to you that you are seeing an illusion 2) You could make an illusion of a grease patch but it would not be slippery: enemies might well avoid entering it though and may even stop charges short if you readied it ahead of them.
bitznarf 03-22-07, 10:47 AM	Perhaps this series of articles by Skip Williams might help you decide which would be more useful. It also covers the rules governing illusions. For example, your silent image spell doesn't actually have any substance to it, thus it can't actually cause someone to slip and fall. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a
Zanzibax 03-23-07, 09:39 AM	Perhaps this series of articles by Skip Williams might help you decide which would be more useful. It also covers the rules governing illusions. For example, your silent image spell doesn't actually have any substance to it, thus it can't actually cause someone to slip and fall. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a Unless it's concealing something slippery and/or deep.
Rerednaw 03-23-07, 10:59 AM	...Now, the advice part: Beguiler or Wizard/Illusionist. ...Which would you choose and why? Any additional considerations? For me, party composition is a consideration. If there isn't a full arcane, I'd go wizard. I would not specialize for the same reason. If there is an arcane, then I'd go beguiler for the reasons you mentioned. Beguilers are essentially specialist sorcerors with a superior spell list, more hit points, more skills, more weapon profs, with a casting stat that is very useful (int), and armored casting.
cetiken 03-24-07, 08:58 AM	Thats a very usefull series of articles, Thanks. As a side note, I think beguiler is actually better at replacing the group Rogue than replacing the group Wizard.