Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jenner2057 05-28-07, 03:55 AM	Hello! I have a friend who’s brand new to LG. She wanted to create a high elf “swashbuckler type” light infantry character. Here’s starting stats (from memory, they may be off a little…) S10, D16, C12, I16, W10, Ch12 She’s kind of undecided as to what direction to take the character and is currently at Swash2. She’s already ruled out any kind of wizard or blade singer class. Being new she wants to stick to a straight fighter type. Her character worships Corellon Lothorien, so I was thinking Champion of CL but I could use some help with the proposed build since my character is only 9th, I’m a little uncertain of what to expect over APL10. Any help with the build would be appreciated. I'm by no means stuck on ANY of these ideas. These were just what I was kicking around. Have others tried CoCL builds (that someone wouldn’t mind linking to)? Is there a better light infantry PrC I should be looking at from her Swashbuckler start? Major problems with the build? Where to go from here? Current… 1. Swash 1 (weapon finesse, weapon focus rapier) 2. Swash 2 Future… (?) 3. Fighter 1 (power attack, bonus: exotic weapon focus thin blade) 4. Fighter 2 (bonus: combat expertise) 5. Swash 3 (precision damage) 6. Fighter 3 (dodge) 7. Fighter 4 (bonus: mounted combat) 8. Champion 1 (bonus: improved expertise) 9. Champion 2 (elegant strike, power crit, ) 10. Champion 3 11. Champion 4 (bonus: ?) Thanks for any help!
jstorrie 05-28-07, 04:22 AM	You're probably going to want to bite the xp hit at this point and get Swash3 right away. With no Strength to speak of, your melee damage is awful.
ThaiGQ 05-28-07, 05:17 AM	You're probably going to want to bite the xp hit at this point and get Swash3 right away. With no Strength to speak of, your melee damage is awful. Well, if you want to avoid the xp hit, another option would be to re-train WF: Rapier into Improved Weapon Familiarity (I think that's the name of the feat) and start using an Elven Courtblade instead because at the moment, Power Attack is pretty much useless if you're using a rapier or elven thin-blade. For damage, instead of taking WF: Elven Thin-blade, you could WF: Elven Courtblade instead to give you an extra +1 to hit for PA. Or you could could go Combat Expertise and take Deadly Defense as your Fighter 2 bonus feat to give you extra AC and an extra +1d6 points of damage.
_metz_ 05-28-07, 06:52 AM	Hello! I have a friend who’s brand new to LG. She wanted to create a high elf “swashbuckler type” light infantry character. Here’s starting stats (from memory, they may be off a little…) S10, D16, C12, I16, W10, Ch12 She’s kind of undecided as to what direction to take the character and is currently at Swash2. She’s already ruled out any kind of wizard or blade singer class. Being new she wants to stick to a straight fighter type. Her character worships Corellon Lothorien, so I was thinking Champion of CL but I could use some help with the proposed build since my character is only 9th, I’m a little uncertain of what to expect over APL10. Any help with the build would be appreciated. I'm by no means stuck on ANY of these ideas. These were just what I was kicking around. Have others tried CoCL builds (that someone wouldn’t mind linking to)? Is there a better light infantry PrC I should be looking at from her Swashbuckler start? Major problems with the build? Where to go from here? Current… 1. Swash 1 (weapon finesse, weapon focus rapier) 2. Swash 2 Future… (?) 3. Fighter 1 (power attack, bonus: exotic weapon focus thin blade) 4. Fighter 2 (bonus: combat expertise) 5. Swash 3 (precision damage) 6. Fighter 3 (dodge) 7. Fighter 4 (bonus: mounted combat) 8. Champion 1 (bonus: improved expertise) 9. Champion 2 (elegant strike, power crit, ) 10. Champion 3 11. Champion 4 (bonus: ?) Thanks for any help! You need str 13 to take power attack. Unless you have a +4 str booster after 3 levels (impossible really) then it ain't going to happen. The courtblade is a good tip, I think you are all missing the fact that this character ain't going to be able to take PA at all and needs a massive rethink :P If the character is already created with those stats then you are best taking the following: Future… (?) 3. Rogue1: Two Weapon Fighting 4. Rogue2: Stat boost: Dex 5. Swash 3 (precision damage) 6. Rogue 3: Daring Outlaw 7. Fighter 1: Retrain Weapon Focus to dodge, Bonus Feat: Mobility 8. Fighter2: Combat Expertise Stat boost: Dex 9. Fighter3: Weapon Focus: Scimitar 10. Fighter4: Weapon Spec: Scimitar 11. Dervish1: (Scimitars now light weapon) 12. Dervish2: Melee Weapon Mastery, Slashing (Stat boost Dex?) 13. Dervish3: Spring Attack 14. Dervish4: 15. Dervish5: Improved Two Weapon Fighting You can probably do better than that build, as I only just knocked it up quickly (should be writing about labour market segmentation) But yeah you aren't going to get a power attacker build working with 10 strength, best going the dervish route. (You will suck against Undead and Constructs though) If you could redo the stats I would go Wood Elf: Str: 16 Dex: 17 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 10 Or something like that, and change the build drastically, to have Power attack with a courtblade, but that doesn't look like its going to happen...
ThaiGQ 05-28-07, 07:15 AM	You need str 13 to take power attack. Unless you have a +4 str booster after 3 levels (impossible really) then it ain't going to happen. The courtblade is a good tip, I think you are all missing the fact that this character ain't going to be able to take PA at all and needs a massive rethink :P LOL! Excellent point! I can't believe I totally forgot about prereq of Str. 13 for Power Attack... :P That makes it a bit tougher now...
_metz_ 05-28-07, 07:29 AM	LOL! Excellent point! I can't believe I totally forgot about prereq of Str. 13 for Power Attack... :P That makes it a bit tougher now... I think Dervish and some skirmish/sneak attack TWF is probably the way to go, I knocked up a quick build above, its not great and could do with some tweaking, but it kinda rescues the character a bit...
Jenner2057 05-28-07, 11:52 AM	Um... wow. I can't believe I forgot about the 13 STR req for power attack. I'm just so used to every fighter type taking it, I didn't even bother double check the prereqs. :) That'll teach me to try this right after stepping off a long plane ride. Metz, unfortunately the wood elf rebuild isn't an option. She's already grown quite attached to the character but the dervish build looks really good! Surprisingly, I've got a similar scout build and don't know why I didn't think of that. Oh and I tried to mention the courtblade idea earlier, but she wasn't interested in a 2-handed weapon build. I think the TWF will be more in line with her character concept though. And with the relatively high INT build, I think she'll really like the rogue levels. Despite being really new to the game, she's already figured out the tumbling and flanking so that should work. Thanks for the help!!!
Mattastrophic 05-29-07, 09:54 AM	Dervish? Nahh, she's already built for Champion of Corellon Larethian. Here's a quick build... Currently: 1. Swashbuckler - WpnFinesse, WpnFocus(rapier) 2. Swashbuckler ----- 3. Swashbuckler - Improved Weapon Familiarity, switch up to an Elven Thinblade. 4. Rogue 5. Rogue 6. Rogue - Daring Outlaw, Dodge virtual feat given from effective Swashbuckler5 7. Fighter - Mounted Combat 8. Rogue - Retrain WpnFocus(rapier) into Combat Expertise 9. Champion of Corellon Larethian Sure, mods get a 20% discount on this build, but oh well. -Matt
Howie23 05-29-07, 10:44 AM	Dervish? Nahh, she's already built for Champion of Corellon Larethian. Here's a quick build... Currently: 1. Swashbuckler - WpnFinesse, WpnFocus(rapier) 2. Swashbuckler ----- 3. Swashbuckler - Improved Weapon Familiarity, switch up to an Elven Thinblade. 4. Rogue 5. Rogue 6. Rogue - Daring Outlaw, Dodge virtual feat given from effective Swashbuckler5 7. Fighter - Mounted Combat 8. Rogue - Retrain WpnFocus(rapier) into Combat Expertise 9. Champion of Corellon Larethian Sure, mods get a 20% discount on this build, but oh well. -Matt This build has neither the necessary weapon proficiency (Wpn Focus (longsword), Exo Wpn Prof (courtblade) or Exo Wpn Prof (thinblade)) nor the Dodge feat, both of which are prereqs for the CoCL. I'm not getting into a debate about whether Improved Weapon Familiarity covers for the Exo Wpn Prof; it's been done to death. I would like it to be different; I think it is an oversite in the prerequisites for the build, and is a reasonable house rule. Swash 5 gives a dodge bonus, not the Dodge feat. This is a variant of the same issue. David
_metz_ 05-29-07, 10:49 AM	This build has neither the necessary weapon proficiency (Wpn Focus (longsword), Exo Wpn Prof (courtblade) or Exo Wpn Prof (thinblade)) nor the Dodge feat, both of which are prereqs for the CoCL. I'm not getting into a debate about whether Improved Weapon Familiarity covers for the Exo Wpn Prof; it's been done to death. I would like it to be different; I think it is an oversite in the prerequisites for the build, and is a reasonable house rule. Swash 5 gives a dodge bonus, not the Dodge feat. This is a variant of the same issue. David I think the character would do a lot better with Dervish in terms of damage production (no power attack) and TWF (the way to go if you are a sneak attacker) Not to mention dervish dance allows you to tumble and full attack - with TWF and the decent BAB (only 1 behind a fighter) Thats several attacks on a flank... AND can wield two light weapons both finessed both with weapon spec (yay melee weapon mastery AS WELL) and both weapon focused. Seems like better on the damage curve then the CoCL The CoCL loses 4 damage form the fighter feats, you lose an attack from TWF, lose one to hit, cop a permanent XP penalty, and the heavy armour benefits don't matter that much as the character will probably be in a mithral chain shirt. Also The mounted combat stuff ain't useful without power attack. All of that in exchange for dex to damage doesn't seem as good to me. I can see improvements on the dervish, but can't really see with those stats a better way to go in terms of being able to damage produce. (you might want to work another swashbuckler into the build I gave somewhere for +1 BAB and +1d6 sneak attack)
paigeoliver 05-30-07, 02:24 AM	I suggest three levels of rogue and then at 6th take daring outlaw and keep taking swashbuckler levels from there. Full sneak attack on a character that only loses a single point of BAB.
Jenner2057 05-30-07, 09:01 AM	I suggest three levels of rogue and then at 6th take daring outlaw and keep taking swashbuckler levels from there. Full sneak attack on a character that only loses a single point of BAB. Actually I spoke with her last night and I think that's exactly what she was leaning towards. It fit her character concept perfectly (who has spent the first two levels operating almost entirely behind Pomaj lines so would naturally be focussing more on rogue-y skills) and OOC she really wanted to work on boosting her skills for the next couple levels. When she found out about the sneak attack damage and benefits of TWF that was just bonus for her. :) Unfortunately she wasn't that interested in the fighter or dervish levels. Which brings me to my next question: has anyone seen a straight rogue/swashbuckler build that stayed competitive at the high levels without a PrC? Any comments appreciated. And aside from the TWF feats, are there any other feats she should be looking at out beyond Daring Outlaw to stay effective as a light infantry/rogue combatant? Sorry for all the questions, but I play tanks and wizards. I'm not much help for rogue or light builds :)
Howie23 05-30-07, 10:24 AM	Which brings me to my next question: has anyone seen a straight rogue/swashbuckler build that stayed competitive at the high levels without a PrC? Any comments appreciated. It's possible that there aren't any in LG. Nyrond.org doesn't have all PCs in the campaign, of course, but it does have a sizeable sampling. Swashbuckler has only been around for two years in the campaign, so there hasn't been an opportunity to run one up really high. There is a 10th level Swash in the database; it is a secondary character of a player who has multiple other PCs in that APL. In other words, he can choose his mods/tables. The Swash/Rogue builds cap out at 8th level in the database, with the examples I found being rogue 5/ swashbuckler 3. Worse comes to worse, a death cycle will allow more equipment /new choices /opportunities to try again. :) David
_metz_ 05-30-07, 10:43 AM	Its going to be VERY hard to do with Swashbuckler. Rogue is a better option in terms of skill points and funky abilities. With taking more swashbuckler levels, you get more BAB, however, you miss out on some great stuff. I would suggest taking rogue levels till you get to 10 rogue. MINIMUM. 13 rogue is better. Then you can at least be a bit of a skill monkey, with diplomacy/trap finding etc. Then you can get the crippling strike thing happening. so 13 Rogue/2 Swashbuckler: BAB: +11/+6/+1 (but with Improved TWF have 5 attacks) You will have the following abilities: Sneak attack +8d6 Improved uncanny dodge Crippling Strike +2 Reflex saves +3 Dodge Bonus to AC Another Rogue special ability of your choice. Rogue is actually a great class all the way through, and with TWF and weapon finesse, as well as crippling strike (and other special ability) Once you get to level 12, TAKE SAVVY ROGUE: (Rogue special abilities improve: all of them!, and Crippling strike NOW APPLIES TO STUFF IMMUNE TO SNEAK ATTACK) - so even if fighting undead, you can potentially, if all attacks hit, take 10 str of stuff each ROUND if flanking. As for other feats, Improved TWF will net you lots of attacks each round, taking str of anything you can flank etc, and you will dish out sneak attack damage to anything living very nastily. Now you will have lots of skill points, and be able to contribute. And rogues/swashbucklers can be Role played the same way, just its better in this case (with no PrC) to go rogue then swashbuckler. Definitely rogue for the win. Rogue special abilities are crazy good, and Savvy Rogue is open. I can knock up a good build if its something she likes, and is still anti PrC. (Not to mention she will have 104 skill points from the rogue levels + int modifier every level if she wants more skill points.)
Jenner2057 05-30-07, 11:26 AM	The Swash/Rogue builds cap out at 8th level in the database, with the examples I found being rogue 5/ swashbuckler 3. Worse comes to worse, a death cycle will allow more equipment /new choices /opportunities to try again. :) Normally I would agree with you 100%, but she's a new player already leery of the "enhanced lethality" she's heard about the Living Greyhawk campaign. :) Hasn't played since college and that was *mumble, mumble* years ago (translated: too depressing to think about :) ) Really trying to help her out with a solid character to start with so her spirit doesn't get crushed too swiftly... :D Anyway, Metz, I'm sold. The rogue idea looks great. I'd love to see what some of your thoughts are for feat selection for the (nearly) pure rogue build. Of course, anyone else with a good combat rogue build (non-spellcasting please) that's worked for them please chime in as well!
bitznarf 05-30-07, 12:20 PM	I don't think you can do a Rogue13/Swash2 with Daring Outlaw, if I recall correctly you need at least 3 Swashbuckler levels to take Daring Outlaw.
_metz_ 05-30-07, 12:25 PM	I don't think you can do a Rogue13/Swash2 with Daring Outlaw, if I recall correctly you need at least 3 Swashbuckler levels to take Daring Outlaw. Daring Outlaw requirements: Grace+1, Sneak Attack 2d6. You get Grace+1 at 2nd level Swashbuckler. A lot of people go 3 Swash 3 Rogue for insightful strike at 3rd swash (int to damage) Having int to damage over a second rogue ability when all the damage comes from sneak attack/crippling strike seems a waste, hence only two swashbuckler. (Who needs an extra 3-4 points of damage each strike when you have no other static damage)
bitznarf 05-30-07, 12:27 PM	Hm, I thought Grace+1 came at Swash 3, ah well.
_metz_ 05-30-07, 12:41 PM	Anyway, Metz, I'm sold. The rogue idea looks great. I'd love to see what some of your thoughts are for feat selection for the (nearly) pure rogue build. Of course, anyone else with a good combat rogue build (non-spellcasting please) that's worked for them please chime in as well! 1. Swashbuckler - WpnFinesse, WpnFocus(rapier) 2. Swashbuckler 3. Rogue1: Retrain Wpnfocus Rapier to Wpn Focus (some other finessable weapon that is light for both hands - e.g: Cutlass - this will get you +1 to hit on all your attacks) Feat: Two Weapon Fighting 4. Rogue2: 5. Rogue3: 6. Rogue4: Daring outlaw 7. Rogue5: 8. Rogue6: 9. Rogue7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting 10. Rogue8: 11. Rogue9: 12. Rogue10: Feat: Savvy Rogue 13. Rogue11: 14. Rogue12: 15. Rogue13: Staggering Strike/Disemboweling strike (If you choose a slashing weapon as your weapon focus). Weapon Focus is important as your BAB won't be great Disemboweling strike is a good option (1d4 con damage on sneak attacks in addition to all the other stuff) You only get it once per opponent, but its still pretty nifty.
clannagh 05-31-07, 02:49 AM	if you retrain into improved weapon familiarity at level 3 in that build you can then use a keen thin blade in the primary hand and a keen light blade in the offhand that then makes "telling blow" a very interesting feat choice
Mattastrophic 05-31-07, 09:47 AM	Well, Rog4/Swash3 is an obvious choice. BAB +6, +4d6 sneak attack, +Int to damage, Dodge, and a bunch of skills. As for feat progression, this person's just starting her first Living Greyhawk character, right? Consider just how much the campaign's going to change by the time she reaches 15th level; charting out a feat progression that far ahead will just set her up for trouble later. My suggestion: Rog4/Swash3, taking TWF early on, with plans for ITWF. The rest you can figure out later, doubly so with Retraining in the picture. -Matt
_metz_ 05-31-07, 09:56 AM	Rogue4 Swash2 is a better option then, leaves her really open. 9only need 2 swash for daring outlaw)
Timlagor 05-31-07, 10:26 AM	When you have 16 base Int it's silly not to pick up the extra 3 damage.
Jenner2057 05-31-07, 11:31 AM	When you have 16 base Int it's silly not to pick up the extra 3 damage. I think that's her thinking as well. She's leaning towards... 3. Rogue - TWF Retrain WF (rapier) into something that can apply to both hands 4. Rogue 5. Swash (for the INT to dmg) 6. Rogue - Daring Outlaw ...making her a Rogue3/Swash3. She also wasn't interested in taking any xp hits either -- especially this early in her character's career. <shrug> Understandable. Clannagh, I don't have my books so I'll have to look into the imp weapon fam -> thinblade/lightblade option. I'm not familiar with the cutlass, Metz, but are there any other good weapons that are finessable and can be wielded in both hands that would be good Weapon Focus choices?
_metz_ 05-31-07, 12:01 PM	Cutlass is a light slashing weapon that does d6 damage and has a crit of 19-20*2. It is finessable being light. It's from storm wrack. Hence its slashing so you qualify for disemboweling strike, and you use it in both hands (light weapon). Also has a +2 circumstance bonus on being disarmed. It is open access and costs 15 gp. As for the other stuff: When you have 16 base Int it's silly not to pick up the extra 3 damage. Not when you trade a rogue special ability for it. Especially when you are going for one rogue ability already, and savvy rogue is incredible if you get two rogue abilities. Attacks doing: 9d6+3 damage. (without any upgrades on the weapons) OR Attacks doing: 9d6 damage and you have improved evasion (with +2 saves from savvy), or defensive roll (three times a day), or whatever. You will do damage if you get your sneak attack. In any other situation you will do only 1d6+3. Against things you CAN'T sneak attack, you will only get d6. Completely useless after APL 2 really. How is that worth defensive roll 3 times a day, or +2 reflex saves and improved evasion? You won't take the xp hit till level 6 anyways. So its a while off. It is really more advantageous to take another rogue level.
Jenner2057 05-31-07, 12:25 PM	Cutlass is a light slashing weapon that does d6 damage and has a crit of 19-20*2. It is finessable being light. It's from storm wrack. Ah... storm wrack. One of the books I don't own. Thanks for the info! And all great points on the rogue spec abilities. I'll have to take a closer look at those as well as savvy rogue. Thanks again to all for the tips! A non-light infantry guy appreciates the help :)
boolean 06-02-07, 06:14 AM	Having int to damage over a second rogue ability when all the damage comes from sneak attack/crippling strike seems a waste, hence only two swashbuckler. I see your point, but there is one reason the insightful strike benefit is better than a second rogue ability: you get it a lot sooner. Depending on the build, insightful strike can be picked up between third and sixth, so it can be achieved within the first year of play. The rogue special abilities don't appear until 12th level (looking at swashbuckler 2/rogue 10), which many players won't reach until their third year of playing, if ever. So, one build gives a smaller benefit for a larger percent of the character's lifespan. For you, it's an easy decision to take the longer term benefit. For a newer, more casual player, the other option might be preferable.
_metz_ 06-02-07, 07:46 AM	maybe, but at 7th level, 3 damage is really nothing at all. Even at low levels, 3 damage isn't really anything if there is no other static damage at all.
Mattastrophic 06-04-07, 11:43 AM	maybe, but at 7th level, 3 damage is really nothing at all. Even at low levels, 3 damage isn't really anything if there is no other static damage at all. 3 is right under the average d6 roll (3.5, to be precise.) Thus, 3 extra damage translates into another sneak attack die, which you don't have to catch anybody flatfooted to get. So, going from Swash2 to Swash3 is the equivalent of going from Rog3 to Rog5. And with Daring Outlaw you're still adding to your sneak attack progression, so thus it becomes the equivalent of going from Rog3 to Rog6. Tim's right. It's silly to not take that. -Matt
_metz_ 06-04-07, 12:26 PM	In that case his character will not get crippling strike till 13, and Savvy Rogue till 15. (Instead of both at 12) Effectively making the ten levels of rogue useless. Think of the ramifications on the rest of the build please, before convincing a new player what to do. Propose an alternate build in that case. It doesn't make sense to get excited about three extra damage now and forget the ramifications on the rest of the character. If you take 3 Swashbuckler for the first three levels, Do not bother with more than 4 levels of rogue. Its like a well built Deepwarden build that is ruined cos someone said 'take another level of barbarian here' Insightful strike works with a more swashbuckler oriented build- HOWEVER, this character doesn't make a great swashbuckler (Power Attacking finesser) Based on the stats and the character concept. As such Rogue levels will make more sense. I would OFC suggest fighter levels and Courtblades etc. When someone asks for help with their character people should read through the whole post. Please read through what the player wants, then reread my posts, and perhaps greater understand WHY they shouldn't take Swash 3. Essentially, as the Character has NO OTHER static damage, If it can't sneak attack, it shouldn't be in combat. And 4d6+3 when Daring outlaw kicks in isn't really much more impressive than 4d6, especially when you consider opposing builds at level 12. Over APL 4 the extra three damage isn't even going to help with much. (Considering an APL 6 fighter can do 15+ static damage per attack.) I am not saying Insightful strike isn't useful. In this case though, its not worth it.
Mattastrophic 06-04-07, 03:45 PM	Propose an alternate build in that case. I've already posted two builds for the original poster. Rog4/Swash3/Ftr1/ChampionOfCorellon (whether it flies is subject to table variation) and Rog4/Swash3/whateverX. I've also posted that since LG will probably change a whole lot by the time the original poster makes it to 15th level, setting her up with a full build now will only disappoint her later. It's her first character! She should have fun with it now, not at 12 when she picks up Savvy Rogue. We'll just agree to disagree on this one, though. I can see the merits of your build (using Daring Outlaw and picking up Savvy Rogue the same level it hits Rog10, good idea); I just feel that keeping it simple and open-ended, with a "skeleton build" of Rog4/Swash3, with Daring Outlaw and Two-Weapon Fighting, would be best for this player with an existing Swash2 with the given stats. -Matt
_metz_ 06-04-07, 10:22 PM	I've already posted two builds for the original poster. Rog4/Swash3/Ftr1/ChampionOfCorellon (whether it flies is subject to table variation) and Rog4/Swash3/whateverX. I've also posted that since LG will probably change a whole lot by the time the original poster makes it to 15th level, setting her up with a full build now will only disappoint her later. It's her first character! She should have fun with it now, not at 12 when she picks up Savvy Rogue. We'll just agree to disagree on this one, though. I can see the merits of your build (using Daring Outlaw and picking up Savvy Rogue the same level it hits Rog10, good idea); I just feel that keeping it simple and open-ended, with a "skeleton build" of Rog4/Swash3, with Daring Outlaw and Two-Weapon Fighting, would be best for this player with an existing Swash2 with the given stats. -Matt I think the main issue is the player didn't want to be anything other than a Rogue or swashbuckler. And with the stats given I favoured rogue, you favoured swashbuckler, its one of those inherent differnences that makes this game what it is: a game of choice :)
boolean 06-05-07, 01:28 PM	The (already existing) character is a Grey Elf, right? So, neither Rogue nor Swashbuckler are a favored class for this character. I'd recommend keeping the levels fairly even, say Swashbuckler 8/Rogue7. This has the following benefits: No 20%xp/gp penalty. The penalty is yet another thing to make the player decide "This sucks. I quit." Mostly good BAB. It loses 2 points overall, which is better than Swash2/Rogue13, which loses four. Pretty good hit points. Sw8/Rog7 has 80 base HP (not including Con bonus etc.). Sw2/Rog13 has 68. (For comparison, Sw12/Rog3 has 88) Good skill points and, more importantly, skill selection. Rogue has many class skills that Swashbuckler doesn't. Taking every odd level as a Rogue allows you to keep search, disable device, and use magic device, for example, at max ranks without having to buy them as cross class (a flaw in the Sw12/Rog3 build).