Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mithreinmaethor 04-27-07, 07:45 AM	Ok I was looking to do an Archer and I looked around at all the different builds. This is a modification of a build that Mommy was an Orc posted back in October of 2005. As usual its not going to be optimal but I think in the end it works out. Wood Elf (S:16 D:16 C:12 I:12 W:12 C:8) 1 Scout - Feat: Point Blank Shot 2 Scout 3 Ranger - Feat: Precise Shot 4 Scout 5 Scout - Bonus Feat: Swift Hunter 6 Ranger - Feat: Weapon Focus - Longbow, Combat Style - Rapid Shot 7 Scout 8 Scout 9 Scout - Feat: True Believer 10 Pious Templar 11 Scout - Bonus Feat: Improved Skirmish 12 Pious Templar - Feat: Manyshot 13 Pious Templar - Weapon Specialization - Longbow 14 Pious Templar - Bonus Feat: Ranged Weapon Mastery 15 Pious Templar - Feat: Improved Precise Shot Ok I know it looks odd and doesnt have Improved Rapid shot. He can function like a normal Archer using Rapid Shot or if pressed can Tumble around and Skirmish and off an arrow. The Skirmish becomes somewhat more viable at levels 12 thru 15 when I get the Manyshot feat. Here is how the damage works out on a level to level basis. We will assume just normal stat bumps for level and no items (stat bump or magic weapon etc), and all shots within 30'. 1st thru 4th (Normal = 4-11 or with Skirmish 5-17) 5th (Normal = 4-11 or with Skirmish 6-23) 6th and 7th (Normal = 4-11 or Skirmish = 6-23 or Rapid Shot = 8-24) 8th (Normal = 8-24 or Skirmish = 6-23 or Rapid Shot = 12-33) 9th and 10th (Normal = 8-24 or Skirmish = 7-29 or Rapid Shot = 12-33) 11th (Normal = 8-24 or Skirmish = 8-35 or Rapid Shot = 12-33) 12th (Normal = 8-24 or Skirmish = 13-54 or Rapid Shot = 12-33) 13th (Normal = 18-39 or Skirmish = 23-69 or Rapid Shot = 24-52) 14th and 15th (Normal = 24-45 or Skirmish = 29-75 or Rapid Shot = 32-60) At from 1st thru 5th, Skirmishing is the best option for maximum damage output. At 6th thru 11th, Skirmish and Rapid Shot are pretty even At 12th thru 15th Skirmish starts to take the lead. But it is at -6 AB to the -2 AB from Rapid Shot. Of course those are just raw numbers. Throw in stat bump items, an enchanted bow and the damage and AB's just get better.
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 08:28 AM	Hey, don't blame me for this ;) Seriously, I think the problem with this build is you're putting off vital things - the 2nd level of Ranger should be at 3rd - just as an example - your party is 60 feet away from the bad guys, you go first. They appear to have 1 arcane caster. Do you move up in front, giving people all kinds of charge lanes to you if they go next? Or do you Rapid Shot the arcane before he gets a chance to move. Same thing goes for Ranged Weapon Mastery - if you can get it, it is significantly better than Improved Rapid Shot. But I would be targeting to get this as early as possible. Also, another important reason for putting Pious Templar in the middle instead of the end is that way you can take levels of Ranger/Scout to advance your skills. As an archer, I'd also find it really difficult to avoid taking 6 levels of Ranger if you're getting Manyshot - Guided Shot is amazing - Scout 4/Ranger 6/Pious Templar 5 seems like a more natural build for this.
Mithreinmaethor 04-27-07, 03:36 PM	You want Scout 5 so you get Evasion which works well with Mettle that you get from Pious Templar. And unless you are in a narrow corridor there are many ways to move within 30' of a critter and shoot it without blocking charge lanes. And I would have to drop Precise Shot at 3rd and take WF at that point then take True Believer at 6th to get Pious Templar any earlier. Is it worth losing Precise Shot to take Pious Templar Earlier ? Hey, don't blame me for this ;) Seriously, I think the problem with this build is you're putting off vital things - the 2nd level of Ranger should be at 3rd - just as an example - your party is 60 feet away from the bad guys, you go first. They appear to have 1 arcane caster. Do you move up in front, giving people all kinds of charge lanes to you if they go next? Or do you Rapid Shot the arcane before he gets a chance to move. Same thing goes for Ranged Weapon Mastery - if you can get it, it is significantly better than Improved Rapid Shot. But I would be targeting to get this as early as possible. Also, another important reason for putting Pious Templar in the middle instead of the end is that way you can take levels of Ranger/Scout to advance your skills. As an archer, I'd also find it really difficult to avoid taking 6 levels of Ranger if you're getting Manyshot - Guided Shot is amazing - Scout 4/Ranger 6/Pious Templar 5 seems like a more natural build for this.
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 03:50 PM	You want Scout 5 so you get Evasion which works well with Mettle that you get from Pious Templar. And unless you are in a narrow corridor there are many ways to move within 30' of a critter and shoot it without blocking charge lanes. And I would have to drop Precise Shot at 3rd and take WF at that point then take True Believer at 6th to get Pious Templar any earlier. Is it worth losing Precise Shot to take Pious Templar Earlier ? I'm not talking about blocking your party's charge lanes...I'm talking about you the Scout sitting up in front, the DM did 1 initiative roll, and all his BDFs are going next while his arcanist dumps a Glitterdust on your party... You don't have to drop the feats like that - you go this way: 1: Scout 1: PBS 2: Ranger 1: Track 3: Ranger 2: Rapid Shot, Precise Shot->True Believer 4: Scout 2 5: Scout 3 6: Scout 4: Precise Shot->Swift Hunter, WF: Composite Longbow 7: PT 1 8: PT 2 9: PT 3: WS: Composite Longbow, RWM(Piercing) 10: PT 4: Precise Shot The -> represent retrainings as you get the feats available.
Mithreinmaethor 04-27-07, 04:27 PM	Ok to bring in Pious Templar Sooner this is what I came up with. 1 Scout - Feat: Point Blank Shot 2 Scout 3 Ranger - Feat: Precise Shot (Retrain to Weapon Focus - Longbow at 7th) 4 Ranger - Combat Style - Rapid Shot 5 Ranger 6 Ranger - Feat: True Believer 7 Pious Templar 8 Pious Templar 9 Pious Templar - Feat: Ranged Weapon Mastery, Weapon Specialization - Longbow 10 Pious Templar - Bonus Feat: Precise Shot 11 Scout 12 Ranger - Feat: Swift Hunter 13 Ranger - Improved Combat Style - Manyshot 14 Scout - Bonus Feat: Improved Skirmish 15 Scout - Feat: Improved Precise Shot (or maybe another feat ?) Damage looks like this: 1st to 3rd..........Normal = 4-11 / Skirmish = 5-17 4th to 6th.........Normal = 4-11 / Skirmish = 5-17 / Rapid Shot = 8-22 7th & 8th..........Normal = 8-22 / Skirmish = 5-17 / Rapid Shot = 12-33 9th to 11th........Normal = 16-30 / Skirmish = 9-23 / Rapid Shot = 24-45 12th.................Normal = 24-45 / Skirmish = 10-29 / Rapid Shot = 32-60 13th.................Normal = 24-45 / Skirmish = 27-63 / Rapid Shot = 32-60 14th & 15th.......Normal = 24-45 / Skirmish = 29-75 / Rapid Shot = 32-60 It looks like at levels 1st to 3rd and 13th to 15th is when Skirmish becomes the best damage dealer. The tween levels are when Rapid Shot becomes the most useful. At least the last 3 levels of the characters life will give me an option of either Skirmish combined with Manyshot or Rapid Shooting
bitznarf 04-27-07, 05:02 PM	Are you considering the impact an enchanted bow has on all this? Each enchantment gets passed on to each arrow with rapid shot, but only once on skirmish. Consider a +1 holy acid bow or some such. Thats an extra 3d6+1 damage on a skirmish. Thats 12d6+4 with rapid shot, not even counting haste. What about bard song? GMW? Any other boost to damage per shot?
Sieylianna 04-27-07, 05:43 PM	I'm not talking about blocking your party's charge lanes...I'm talking about you the Scout sitting up in front, the DM did 1 initiative roll, and all his BDFs are going next while his arcanist dumps a Glitterdust on your party... We had something like this happen in Xendrik. The ranger archer (we're all level 4) has the best initiative so he moves up to get a clear shot. The monster (dire lion) goes next, charge, pounce and dead ranger. Then the rest of the party piles on the lion. Ed
Mithreinmaethor 04-27-07, 05:51 PM	Sorry I had stated it in the 1st post and not in the 2nd. The stats were based off of a Composite Longbow +2, all shots within 30' for Point Blank Shot and Skirmish purposes. There are no considerations for stat bump items or an enchanted bot. It was just RAW damage without any enhancements. And Manyshot will also pass on said enhancements to the arrows. So from 13th to 15th level Skirmish combined with Manyshot still will lead the damage curve. Just more options at the later levels. Plus will have 3 favored enemies for extra damage (probably Undead, Constructs and elementals) and that I can still include the skirmish with. Are you considering the impact an enchanted bow has on all this? Each enchantment gets passed on to each arrow with rapid shot, but only once on skirmish. Consider a +1 holy acid bow or some such. Thats an extra 3d6+1 damage on a skirmish. Thats 12d6+4 with rapid shot, not even counting haste. What about bard song? GMW? Any other boost to damage per shot?
bitznarf 04-27-07, 07:30 PM	Sorry I had stated it in the 1st post and not in the 2nd. The stats were based off of a Composite Longbow +2, all shots within 30' for Point Blank Shot and Skirmish purposes. There are no considerations for stat bump items or an enchanted bot. It was just RAW damage without any enhancements. Exactly! You need to consider the stat bumps and bow enhancements or your comparison means nothing. Besides, who buys a straight +2 bow :confused: I can see getting it (or better) with GMW, but buying the +2? If you don't consider it, its like comparing a TWF dervish with +2 weapons to a power attacking dervish with a +2 weapon. It just doesn't line up. Actually I think the dervish example actually lines up better then the archer one, see below for details. And Manyshot will also pass on said enhancements to the arrows. So from 13th to 15th level Skirmish combined with Manyshot still will lead the damage curve. Just more options at the later levels. Plus will have 3 favored enemies for extra damage (probably Undead, Constructs and elementals) and that I can still include the skirmish with. Manyshot only passes on it enhancement to one arrow. And skirmish will only apply to one arrow. Take a look at volley attacks in the FAQ.
Mithreinmaethor 04-27-07, 07:46 PM	I just today downloaded the new FAQ and there is nothing in there that states that the enhancements from a bow would not apply to each arrow with Manyshot. Yes the Skirmish only counts for 1 and if I were to crit only the 1st one would do so. But weapon enhancements are not considered Precision Based Damage as sneak attack and skirmish are. If you can quote it from the FAQ please show me so I know. Is it maybe referred to in another spot. I searched the FAQ for volley attacks and there is nothing. When searching for Volley it goes to the entry where it explains that the sneak attack damage only counts for the 1st arrow in the volley. Exactly! You need to consider the stat bumps and bow enhancements or your comparison means nothing. Besides, who buys a straight +2 bow :confused: I can see getting it (or better) with GMW, but buying the +2? If you don't consider it, its like comparing a TWF dervish with +2 weapons to a power attacking dervish with a +2 weapon. It just doesn't line up. Actually I think the dervish example actually lines up better then the archer one, see below for details. Manyshot only passes on it enhancement to one arrow. And skirmish will only apply to one arrow. Take a look at volley attacks in the FAQ.
bitznarf 04-27-07, 08:03 PM	I'm wrong. I could have sworn that I had read the exact opposite somewhere. When you use Manyshot, does your Strength bonus from a mighty composite bow apply to each arrow’s damage? Yes, as would the enhancement bonus from a magic bow. Still, any enhancement bonus from the bow applies more times with rapid shot and haste than it does with skirmish and manyshot.
_metz_ 04-28-07, 03:38 AM	Why go Wood Elf? (S:14 D:17 C:12 I:12 W:12 C:8) I'd be very inclined to dump the wisdom and take str up to 16, at least... How about this for a build guys? (This is one me and my friend came up with a while back) Kinda lost interest, trying to resurrect it. (he is asking for some help lol) Wood Elf: Str: 16 Dex: 18 (8 and 12 stat bump into this) Con: 13 (level 4 stat bump into this) Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 Ranger1: Track, Point Blank Shot Ranger2: Rapid Shot Fighter1: Weapon Focus: (Comp Longbow) Precise Shot - what the character is currently up to Fighter2: ??? (unsure of which feat to take) Fighter3: Order of the Bow: Ranged Precision (Feat: True Beleiver - Ehlonna) Order of the Bow: Close Combat Shot Pious Templar 1: (Stat Boost Dex) Mettle Pious Templar 2: - Feat: Manyshot Pious Templar 3: Weapon Spec Longbow Pious Templar 4: Bonus Feat: Improved Precise Shot Fighter4: (Stat Boost: Dex) Penetrating Shot: Endurance????? Wildrunner1: Wildrunner2: Wildrunner3: Feat ??? What do you guys think? - Roleplaying is fanatical Ehlonna Archer. SImple really.
Mithreinmaethor 04-28-07, 06:44 AM	I need the Wisdom to use my Ranger and Pious Templar Spells Why go Wood Elf? (S:14 D:17 C:12 I:12 W:12 C:8) I'd be very inclined to dump the wisdom and take str up to 16, at least... How about this for a build guys? (This is one me and my friend came up with a while back) Kinda lost interest, trying to resurrect it. (he is asking for some help lol) Wood Elf: Str: 16 Dex: 18 (8 and 12 stat bump into this) Con: 13 (level 4 stat bump into this) Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 Ranger1: Track, Point Blank Shot Ranger2: Rapid Shot Fighter1: Weapon Focus: (Comp Longbow) Precise Shot - what the character is currently up to Fighter2: ??? (unsure of which feat to take) Fighter3: Order of the Bow: Ranged Precision (Feat: True Beleiver - Ehlonna) Order of the Bow: Close Combat Shot Pious Templar 1: (Stat Boost Dex) Mettle Pious Templar 2: - Feat: Manyshot Pious Templar 3: Weapon Spec Longbow Pious Templar 4: Bonus Feat: Improved Precise Shot Fighter4: (Stat Boost: Dex) Penetrating Shot: Endurance????? Wildrunner1: Wildrunner2: Wildrunner3: Feat ??? What do you guys think? - Roleplaying is fanatical Ehlonna Archer. SImple really.
Mithreinmaethor 04-28-07, 06:50 AM	Yes Rapid Shot would give me 4 Arrows at AB -2/-2/-7/-14, and Manyshot would give me 3 Arrows and Skirmish at AB -6. As I said it frees me up for different situations. Sometimes you dont get the chance to shoot everything from far away. Sometimes you get jumped and have to maneuver and make space. I'm wrong. I could have sworn that I had read the exact opposite somewhere. Still, any enhancement bonus from the bow applies more times with rapid shot and haste than it does with skirmish and manyshot.
Mommy was an Orc 04-28-07, 08:19 AM	Yes Rapid Shot would give me 4 Arrows at AB -2/-2/-7/-14, and Manyshot would give me 3 Arrows and Skirmish at AB -6. Except at that level, you usually have Haste. And it isn't all or nothing. One of the big problems with Manyshot is that either they all hit or they don't. In general, it is a lot better to do steady damage than all or nothing - you miss completely 2 rounds in a row, and that can change the nature of the combat.
Mithreinmaethor 04-29-07, 03:55 AM	Well doesnt matter anymore anyhow. I played a module today that has changed my whole character concept. At least I was only 2nd level when this happened. Except at that level, you usually have Haste. And it isn't all or nothing. One of the big problems with Manyshot is that either they all hit or they don't. In general, it is a lot better to do steady damage than all or nothing - you miss completely 2 rounds in a row, and that can change the nature of the combat.
solbergb 05-02-07, 02:45 PM	The problem with manyshot is it doesn't work beyond 30'. That's about 30' closer than I like my archer to be from the thing I'm feathering.