New to Dungeons and Dragons [Archive] - Wizards Community

New to Dungeons and Dragons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
adclark2
09-29-06, 10:58 AM I am new to Dungeons and Dragons I have been playin RPGA for about 6 months or so and I recently bought a DMG and was wondering what would be a good charater build for an eventual shadow dancer prestiege class.

Thanks
Japangirl
09-29-06, 01:15 PM Rogues and Monks make very good shadowdancers. Rogues get sneak attack, which synergizes very well with the Hide in Plain Sight shadowdancers get, and once you can summon a shadow it is a permanent flanking buddy. Rogues also have lots of skill points, and all the skills are in class. Downsides are that a rogue stops gaining sneak attacks once entering this class and would have to cross-class disable device. You do give up some skill points as well when you become a shadowdancer.

Monks have the normal monky benefits of great saves and fast movement. Grapple monks can use the shadow jump ability to jump past the meatshields and grapple a spell caster who is in the back. I know there are other benefits to being a monk, but I know rogues a lot better. Shadowdancers make great sneaky rogues, but not great combat rogues.
UMiskatonic
09-29-06, 02:37 PM Personally, I think the best ways to get there are through monk and maybe ranger.

While perhaps the Shadowdancer was meant for rogues, it's actually a poor fit. There's too much overlap. If you are a 2nd level rogue, you get evasion. Getting access to evasion a second time doesn't give you anything you don't already have.

Hide in plain sight is GREAT with spring attack. You could spring attack, stunning fist, move away, and hide every round.

Also, HIPS lets you position yourself really well to take advantage of your Combat Reflexes ability. Pick up a reach weapon to get even more use out of it. It's okay if you are not that good with it, those are free attacks you are getting.

I would start with monk 6
clik_ml
09-29-06, 04:28 PM If you take your AoO with the reach weapon whilst hidden, then don't you come out of hiding for your main attack where you'd be using your main weapon (whatever that is, as a level 6 monk, ew)?

I'd be tempted to steer way clear of the shadow dancer. Spring attacking is a pretty crummy machine to fight in. You get to trade your insignificant one attack per round with the bad guy's (likely) significant 1 attack per round. So he lasts much longer, and if your DM has wits at all, the bad guy will still be getting a full attack on your allies while your allies hate you for being so intentionally useless. Only thing worse than a monk is a monk who doesn't make use of their potential boatload of attacks.

As a monk, you aren't even getting an incentive to attack from hiding. Sneak attack is about the only incentive to do so.

So I really really really can't advocate burning 3 feats as an already beleaguered monk, just for the express purpose of not contributing meaningfully to any combats. You don't even flank! Using a non-proficient reach weapon on top of it all is just rotten gravy.

Japangirl already nailed it. Shadowdancers make good sneaky characters, but not good combat characters. In DnD (LG in particular), combat is king.
A rogue (or monk) can take a 1 level dip in shadow dancer for the sneakyness of it, but I strongly urge to totally ignore it for combats (except perhaps for being hidden during the first round, or if you can't get a full attack anyway), and resist the temptation to pick up spring attack if you're playing said monk. Sneaky spring attacks could work better for rogues as they have the sneak attack incentive, but almost always I'd prefer my party was on full-offense instead of half-assed offense.

The biggest drain to becoming a shadow dancer is that you have to take 2 really crappy feats to enter, especially since any sneaky character already can tumble, and tumbling makes mobility totally pointless, unless you want to draw AoOs for other players... a rare situation. You really don't need more than 1 level of shadow dancer to become super sneaky, so there isn't much point in advancing the class further.

So... build?

Simplest is just:
7 Rogue/1 Shadow Dancer/7 Rogue

That gets you your sneakyness ASAP, and retains your sneak attack dice such that you can contribute meaningfully to combat. I'd either recommend a human (due to the huge feat investment), or a deep halfling, dwarf or half-orc (for darkvision... nothing spoils hiding more than having to hold a torch)- in that order.

human
14,14,14,14,10,8 (don't want to sack strength for dex, since we can ill-afford weapon finesse already, and having at least some damage bonus against unsneakables is handy)
1-ImpInit,CombatRef
3-Dodge
6-Mobility
9-Staggering Strike

Those base stats are probably good for the other racial versions as well. Drop ImpInit for them and you're pretty much in the same place. If you wish to optimize sneakyness, then deep halfling seems your best bet. Their 20' move speed is irritating however, especially if you insist on spring attacking someday.
Lomiat
09-29-06, 05:25 PM I disagree with the sentiment that Spring Attack has no value in LG. It just needs a player who can figure out: A) how to get it to work for his/her character, and B) how to get the other players at the table to work together so that the spring attack can work.

A couple of interesting possible builds:

Halfling
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8
Scout3/Bbn2/Ftr2/Rog1/Shadowdancer2/Rogue, Highland Stalker or Nightsong Enforcer X
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack, Staggering Strike, Power Attack, etc.

This is a halfling with 40 ft base movement and, of course, an astronomical Hide and Move Silently score. Use a reach weapon to stagger the bad guys, then duck back in the shadows. Picks up Shadowdancer at 9th level.

Similar idea, but with a human
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8
Scout4/Rog1/Ftr2/Shadowdancer2/Rogue or Nightsong Enforcer X
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Elusive Target, Staggering Strike

Doesn't hide as well, but can potentially come from out of the shadow, knock an opponent to the ground, staggered, and disappear into the darkness, leaving the opponent nothing to do but stand up (and, hopefully, provoke AO's from all allies with reach weapons).
_m_
10-19-06, 08:17 PM IF you can pull it off, and yes, it will be an accident if you do, cause i sure as heck aint telling you how to do it:

Try and get: Dark template (BIG plusses to hide, shadow dance etc. its awsum)
and try and get access to the child of the night prestiege class. stacks very well with shadowdancer, 1 lvl is a good investment.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
adclark2 09-29-06, 10:58 AM	I am new to Dungeons and Dragons I have been playin RPGA for about 6 months or so and I recently bought a DMG and was wondering what would be a good charater build for an eventual shadow dancer prestiege class. Thanks
Japangirl 09-29-06, 01:15 PM	Rogues and Monks make very good shadowdancers. Rogues get sneak attack, which synergizes very well with the Hide in Plain Sight shadowdancers get, and once you can summon a shadow it is a permanent flanking buddy. Rogues also have lots of skill points, and all the skills are in class. Downsides are that a rogue stops gaining sneak attacks once entering this class and would have to cross-class disable device. You do give up some skill points as well when you become a shadowdancer. Monks have the normal monky benefits of great saves and fast movement. Grapple monks can use the shadow jump ability to jump past the meatshields and grapple a spell caster who is in the back. I know there are other benefits to being a monk, but I know rogues a lot better. Shadowdancers make great sneaky rogues, but not great combat rogues.
UMiskatonic 09-29-06, 02:37 PM	Personally, I think the best ways to get there are through monk and maybe ranger. While perhaps the Shadowdancer was meant for rogues, it's actually a poor fit. There's too much overlap. If you are a 2nd level rogue, you get evasion. Getting access to evasion a second time doesn't give you anything you don't already have. Hide in plain sight is GREAT with spring attack. You could spring attack, stunning fist, move away, and hide every round. Also, HIPS lets you position yourself really well to take advantage of your Combat Reflexes ability. Pick up a reach weapon to get even more use out of it. It's okay if you are not that good with it, those are free attacks you are getting. I would start with monk 6
clik_ml 09-29-06, 04:28 PM	If you take your AoO with the reach weapon whilst hidden, then don't you come out of hiding for your main attack where you'd be using your main weapon (whatever that is, as a level 6 monk, ew)? I'd be tempted to steer way clear of the shadow dancer. Spring attacking is a pretty crummy machine to fight in. You get to trade your insignificant one attack per round with the bad guy's (likely) significant 1 attack per round. So he lasts much longer, and if your DM has wits at all, the bad guy will still be getting a full attack on your allies while your allies hate you for being so intentionally useless. Only thing worse than a monk is a monk who doesn't make use of their potential boatload of attacks. As a monk, you aren't even getting an incentive to attack from hiding. Sneak attack is about the only incentive to do so. So I really really really can't advocate burning 3 feats as an already beleaguered monk, just for the express purpose of not contributing meaningfully to any combats. You don't even flank! Using a non-proficient reach weapon on top of it all is just rotten gravy. Japangirl already nailed it. Shadowdancers make good sneaky characters, but not good combat characters. In DnD (LG in particular), combat is king. A rogue (or monk) can take a 1 level dip in shadow dancer for the sneakyness of it, but I strongly urge to totally ignore it for combats (except perhaps for being hidden during the first round, or if you can't get a full attack anyway), and resist the temptation to pick up spring attack if you're playing said monk. Sneaky spring attacks could work better for rogues as they have the sneak attack incentive, but almost always I'd prefer my party was on full-offense instead of half-assed offense. The biggest drain to becoming a shadow dancer is that you have to take 2 really crappy feats to enter, especially since any sneaky character already can tumble, and tumbling makes mobility totally pointless, unless you want to draw AoOs for other players... a rare situation. You really don't need more than 1 level of shadow dancer to become super sneaky, so there isn't much point in advancing the class further. So... build? Simplest is just: 7 Rogue/1 Shadow Dancer/7 Rogue That gets you your sneakyness ASAP, and retains your sneak attack dice such that you can contribute meaningfully to combat. I'd either recommend a human (due to the huge feat investment), or a deep halfling, dwarf or half-orc (for darkvision... nothing spoils hiding more than having to hold a torch)- in that order. human 14,14,14,14,10,8 (don't want to sack strength for dex, since we can ill-afford weapon finesse already, and having at least some damage bonus against unsneakables is handy) 1-ImpInit,CombatRef 3-Dodge 6-Mobility 9-Staggering Strike Those base stats are probably good for the other racial versions as well. Drop ImpInit for them and you're pretty much in the same place. If you wish to optimize sneakyness, then deep halfling seems your best bet. Their 20' move speed is irritating however, especially if you insist on spring attacking someday.
Lomiat 09-29-06, 05:25 PM	I disagree with the sentiment that Spring Attack has no value in LG. It just needs a player who can figure out: A) how to get it to work for his/her character, and B) how to get the other players at the table to work together so that the spring attack can work. A couple of interesting possible builds: Halfling Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8 Scout3/Bbn2/Ftr2/Rog1/Shadowdancer2/Rogue, Highland Stalker or Nightsong Enforcer X Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack, Staggering Strike, Power Attack, etc. This is a halfling with 40 ft base movement and, of course, an astronomical Hide and Move Silently score. Use a reach weapon to stagger the bad guys, then duck back in the shadows. Picks up Shadowdancer at 9th level. Similar idea, but with a human Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 Scout4/Rog1/Ftr2/Shadowdancer2/Rogue or Nightsong Enforcer X Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Elusive Target, Staggering Strike Doesn't hide as well, but can potentially come from out of the shadow, knock an opponent to the ground, staggered, and disappear into the darkness, leaving the opponent nothing to do but stand up (and, hopefully, provoke AO's from all allies with reach weapons).
_m_ 10-19-06, 08:17 PM	IF you can pull it off, and yes, it will be an accident if you do, cause i sure as heck aint telling you how to do it: Try and get: Dark template (BIG plusses to hide, shadow dance etc. its awsum) and try and get access to the child of the night prestiege class. stacks very well with shadowdancer, 1 lvl is a good investment.