Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ObiWayneKenobi 10-15-07, 07:22 PM	Hello all, I'm new to the RPGA so I need a bit of help. I've been out of the game for a year, and now I'm looking to get back into things and get some games in. My local game shop has an RPGA group that runs regular events, so I've decided to look into joining that. I've never really looked at the RPGA so I'm only vaguely aware of how it works. I've downloaded the LG Campaign Standards and the Greyhawk Ruins pack (The coordinator suggested I look at that to be able to play in those adventures) and am working on reading up on them. I'm planning on making a character with Greyhawk as his home region to take advange of the opened options. I've only ever played melee types and martial clerics, so I was thinking for a change to try my hand at an arcane caster. I'm a bit intimidated at the prospect of playing a Wizard, as I've never done it and I'm used to something with a little more "meat" at 1st level (I admit, when I played before we never started at 1st level), and I'm afraid I'd mess up the spell selection. Sorcerer, flavor-wise really appeals to me, but I don't think they'd be that great for someone new to arcane due to having the very limited choice. Another idea I had floating about was a Warmage, since it seems rather straightforward and might be a good learning tool to playing an arcane caster, and yet a bit stronger/more durable than a standard Wizard/Sorcerer. I took a look at the Holy Scourge PrC from Complete Mage, and it sounds like something I could roll with for both flavor and effectiveness - possibly make the character affiliated with the... Nightwatchmen group I think (the one with ties to the St. Cuthbert church; I don't have the Greyhawk Ruins pdf handy at the moment). Do you think this would be a good choice to help me experiment with an arcane caster? I understand the whole "blasting sucks, don't do it" but I'm rather "afraid" of playing a regular spellcaster since I've never done it and would probably mess it up. I want to play something fun since it's been so long since I've played. D&D, so I'm really excited to get my gaming fix back. I want to be able to contribute to the group, but playing something I'll enjoy is my main goal. As you can tell, I'm a bit rusty. Thanks all for any advice, and good gaming! :)
MwaO 10-15-07, 07:50 PM	Sorcerer, flavor-wise really appeals to me, but I don't think they'd be that great for someone new to arcane due to having the very limited choice. One person's feature is another person's bug. The limited choice is actually very helpful for someone new, provided they pick generally useful spells and try to avoid too much overlap. Also, avoid spells that have limited lifespan(such as Sleep) I'd avoid Holy Scourge like the plague unless there's some kind of roleplaying reason. #1 rule of thumb for casters is never lose a caster level - there are very few PrCs that justify that for a pure caster. And it isn't even clear that Holy Scourge makes up for a lost caster level in its speciality.
ObiWayneKenobi 10-15-07, 08:07 PM	Hmm I'll keep that in mind, thanks. The Warmage/Holy Scourge was a flavor idea that popped into my head when reading the HS entry, but you're right about the caster level thing. I forgot how valuable they can be :)
kegdrainer 10-15-07, 08:56 PM	I'd avoid Holy Scourge like the plague unless there's some kind of roleplaying reason. #1 rule of thumb for casters is never lose a caster level - there are very few PrCs that justify that for a pure caster. And it isn't even clear that Holy Scourge makes up for a lost caster level in its speciality. What Prc(s) do you feel would justify taking a loss in caster level?
copperwyrmling 10-15-07, 09:07 PM	One person's feature is another person's bug. The limited choice is actually very helpful for someone new, provided they pick generally useful spells and try to avoid too much overlap. Also, avoid spells that have limited lifespan(such as Sleep) If you play a sorcerer, read the spells section of the PHB (and whatever other books you're using), just to get an idea of the options, and then pay attention to what spells your sorcerer really wishes they had, during play. It's one of the better level-by-level ways I've found to avoid the "sorcerer who wishes they were a warmage", with nothing but fire-based damage spells at L10. Planning ahead is also good however - in particular, drafting your spell selection at the same time you plan your metamagic feats is usually a good idea. The limited choice means that all your planning happens at level-up. Once you get into the game, you have a short list of options that you will learn very well indeed through play. I find the "I have a hammer so everything looks like a nail" syndrome one of the more amusing parts of playing a sorc, to be honest - people tend to come up with some highly creative uses for their limited spell options :)
MwaO 10-15-07, 10:37 PM	What Prc(s) do you feel would justify taking a loss in caster level? Unseen Seer, Sublime Chord, and Arcane Hierophant.
copperwyrmling 10-15-07, 10:54 PM	Unseen Seer, Sublime Chord, and Arcane Hierophant. Maybe War Weaver too (it's not Open access though). Sublime Chord doesn't really justify taking a CL hit, since you can get in fine with or without losing a CL, it just renders the CL loss almost irrelevant (since your high-level spell progression isn't affected by the CL hit).
_metz_ 10-16-07, 12:25 AM	Unseen Seer, Sublime Chord, and Arcane Hierophant. Ah Unseen Seer, where have you been all my life? *hugs complete mage*
MwaO 10-16-07, 01:36 AM	Maybe War Weaver too (it's not Open access though). Sublime Chord doesn't really justify taking a CL hit, since you can get in fine with or without losing a CL, it just renders the CL loss almost irrelevant (since your high-level spell progression isn't affected by the CL hit). Yes, that one too - I just didn't include it for the access problem, but when a 9th level caster can essentially cast Quickened Greater Mass Invisibility and Quickened Improved Mass Fly, it will break a lot of mods...and that's not including the 1st and 2nd level spell choices that could be cast at the exact same moment...
Timlagor 10-16-07, 06:39 AM	Losing Caster Levels (Unseen Seer) isn't a problem. It's losing Spell levels that is so devastating (especially with Practised Spellcaster to make up the former). Sublime Chord is for Bards and actually increases their spell progression a lot. War Weaver is a definite possibility for the sacrifice of a spell level. I don't think there are any others I would consider seriously for a straight arcanist (...maybe Mindbender if you could use all the powers -NOT for LG). Sorcerors should take sleep at low levels if they have a good DC (and they want to). It's an awesome spell and will serve you very well at APL2 and reasonably at APL4 -you then drop it immediately when the free swap comes along at 4th level. I recommend rooting around on the boards for the threads that already cover sorceror spell's known choices exhaustively. [..of course I still prefer grey elf wizard myself ;)] There's nothing wrong with Warmages but they don't really qualify as Arcanists to my mind.
Reneshat 10-16-07, 07:03 AM	What Prc(s) do you feel would justify taking a loss in caster level? Sandshaper, Sandshaper, Sandshaper! For a Warmage, Beguiler, or Sorcerer a one level dip in Sandshaper is wonderful. It's in Sandstorm and it really fleshes out a spell list. Of course it's not LG legal, so it doesn't really apply to the situation at hand.
ObiWayneKenobi 10-16-07, 08:18 AM	Very good advice so far, thanks everyone. I know that Warmages really aren't arcanists - the only reason I thought of one in the first place is because it seems a good "transition" from what I'm used to (damage dealers) to casters - the two logical choices aren't allowed in LG (Battle Sorcerer UA variant, and Duskblade which as I recall needs to be "unlocked"). I actually plan to make a few characters so I can choose whatever one best suits the situation, and then decide who will be my primary PC. I'm still rolling around some possible ideas in my head and also checking the other threads around here to get a feel for how to make LG characters - before I stopped playing my old D&D group was very much against "building" characters, so it's something I never did much of (maybe a level or two), but it seems to almost be required in LG. Not that that's a bad thing, just something I'm new to :) Thanks again. --- EDIT: I gave it some thought, and I think I've come up with a cool character concept. The idea is a charismatic "arcane gunslinger", sort of a take on the Forgotten Realms Magelord PrC. A roguish, flashy sort of guy who relies on his wits and "quick draw" to see him through. I'm thinking something like: Rogue 1/Sorcerer 6/Spellwarp Sniper 5 (which should see me through to the end of Greyhawk Ruins?). I realize Wizard would let me get in a level earlier, but from a flavor standpoint Sorcerer makes more sense (Wizards should really learn their craft via a mentor, where Sorcerer can be explained as the powers manifesting) and I'd be focusing on a specific kind of spell anyways. I'm not adverse to changing out to Wizard, though :) The concept is only in its early stages so I haven't really planned things out, just a quick sketch of a possible progression. As I said earlier I'm looking for something that's fun to play and effective, and I think this might be it.
copperwyrmling 10-16-07, 04:37 PM	Losing Caster Levels (Unseen Seer) isn't a problem. It's losing Spell levels that is so devastating (especially with Practised Spellcaster to make up the former). I suspect MwaO means that it's worth losing a caster level (by taking a rogue level) to get trapfinding and sneak attack with Unseen Seer. Sorcerors should take sleep at low levels if they have a good DC (and they want to). It's an awesome spell and will serve you very well at APL2 and reasonably at APL4 -you then drop it immediately when the free swap comes along at 4th level. No can do - the free swap at L4 only works on cantrips (max level of spell swapped is two below the highest level of spell you can cast). You could retrain it, but it's a bit of a waste honestly - I find the full-round casting time, area effect and strict HD limits on Sleep make it far inferior to Color Spray (although it'll be excellent if your games feature a lot of encounters that start at Medium range, but that never seems to happen to me at APL 2 ;) ) I prefer taking Color Spray as a starting spell and swapping it out at L6 - Color Spray stays useful for longer than Sleep in my experience, but by APL 6 it's definitely starting to show its age.
solbergb 10-16-07, 05:03 PM	Sorcerors should take sleep at low levels if they have a good DC (and they want to). It's an awesome spell and will serve you very well at APL2 and reasonably at APL4 -you then drop it immediately when the free swap comes along at 4th level. You don't get to swap a level 1 until level 6, barring retraining. I've been underwhelmed by sleep in 3.5. In first edition, sleep had no saving throw and affected 4-16 wimps, 2-8 orcs, 1-4 gnolls or 1 ogre. It just worked. That was what made it awesome. First edition color spray was what illusionists used instead of sleep, and it wasn't nearly as good. In 3.0, sleep had a decent area and range compared to color spray and worked on up to 4 hit dice, as opposed to 1d6 creatures like color spray. It was still the stronger choice until hit die restrictions took it out of the game. For those of us used to first edition sleep though, it was a huge dissapointment. Those darn dire rats all had pretty solid will saves. In 3.5, sleep has a miniscule area of effect, and takes a full round to cast. Color spray no longer has creature limits, casts immediately and has an effect even on high hit die creatures. For most sorcerers, color spray is better - it works on a wider variety of targets, it works right away and it's an adequate spell if you never swap it out, even at higher levels. It is even arguable that sleep puts you in more danger, because you're spellcasting for an entire round, drawing attention from everybody, while with color spray, yes you are closer, but some of the enemies are stunned/blinded/etc and you can still be far enough back that your melees can close the gap against the rest.
copperwyrmling 10-16-07, 05:05 PM	EDIT: I gave it some thought, and I think I've come up with a cool character concept. The idea is a charismatic "arcane gunslinger", sort of a take on the Forgotten Realms Magelord PrC. A roguish, flashy sort of guy who relies on his wits and "quick draw" to see him through. I'm thinking something like: Rogue 1/Sorcerer 6/Spellwarp Sniper 5 (which should see me through to the end of Greyhawk Ruins?). I realize Wizard would let me get in a level earlier, but from a flavor standpoint Sorcerer makes more sense (Wizards should really learn their craft via a mentor, where Sorcerer can be explained as the powers manifesting) and I'd be focusing on a specific kind of spell anyways. I'm not adverse to changing out to Wizard, though :) The concept is only in its early stages so I haven't really planned things out, just a quick sketch of a possible progression. As I said earlier I'm looking for something that's fun to play and effective, and I think this might be it. Sounds like fun :) My first sorcerer (who's now L14) focused pretty heavily on ranged-touch spells from very early on - they can be very effective. Do you have a preferred race? If you go wizard, grey elf gives Int and Dex bonuses and favored class wizard - your best choices for a sorcerer are probably halfling (favored class rogue, Dex bonus and Small size are good for a sniper, deep and tallfellow halflings get some useful roguish abilities) or human (it's hard to go wrong with a bonus feat and skill points). Wizard is probably more optimal here if you're willing to lose the "charismatic" bit of the character concept (since you definitely need Int for skills, but Cha is only really important if you're casting with it) - I guess then he might be a clever but abrasive type, who relies on his wits rather than his charm - but sorcerer should also be perfectly viable.
solbergb 10-16-07, 05:05 PM	EDIT: I gave it some thought, and I think I've come up with a cool character concept. The idea is a charismatic "arcane gunslinger", sort of a take on the Forgotten Realms Magelord PrC. A roguish, flashy sort of guy who relies on his wits and "quick draw" to see him through. A straight warmage tends to do this concept pretty well, actually. They're smart, they are charismatic and they have the best "gun" in the game. They also benefit from feats like improved initiative and danger sense, if you want to be really twitchy and don't need to spend feats on quickdraw or just to be moderately effective. Their spells do that fine.
MwaO 10-16-07, 06:03 PM	I suspect MwaO means that it's worth losing a caster level (by taking a rogue level) to get trapfinding and sneak attack with Unseen Seer. Not just that. The skill points and fair BAB. The other specials aren't that bad either - nondetection always up has some interesting issues. It isn't 100% clear what divination spells it is referring to - are See Invisibility/True Seeing divination spells for purposes of the spell? I prefer taking Color Spray as a starting spell and swapping it out at L6 - Color Spray stays useful for longer than Sleep in my experience, but by APL 6 it's definitely starting to show its age. Ditto - Color Spray is a very naturally replaced spell. And when you've only got 3 1st level spells at 4th, having one that doesn't do a whole lot isn't helpful.
Hariman 10-16-07, 07:34 PM	Sounds like fun :) My first sorcerer (who's now L14) focused pretty heavily on ranged-touch spells from very early on - they can be very effective. Do you have a preferred race? If you go wizard, grey elf gives Int and Dex bonuses and favored class wizard - your best choices for a sorcerer are probably halfling (favored class rogue, Dex bonus and Small size are good for a sniper, deep and tallfellow halflings get some useful roguish abilities) or human (it's hard to go wrong with a bonus feat and skill points). Wizard is probably more optimal here if you're willing to lose the "charismatic" bit of the character concept (since you definitely need Int for skills, but Cha is only really important if you're casting with it) - I guess then he might be a clever but abrasive type, who relies on his wits rather than his charm - but sorcerer should also be perfectly viable. I recommend Halfling if you're going to use a lot of ranged touch attacks. Grey Elf is good too. I have a human rogue/wizard that died and was reincarnated as a halfling, then died and managed to go back to human. I wish I could make him a halfling again. The size bonuses, (to attack and AC), the Dex bonus, the save bonuses, they were all great to have. I recommend the spells Blast of Flame and Arc of Lightning or Vitriolic Spher for spellwarping. They are all 1d6 a level damage and NO SR. Also, if you have Complete Arcane, consider taking Sculpt Spell, Split Ray and Empower Spell. Sculpt Spell will let you pick and choose what area to effect when you need area spells. Split Ray will double the damage of your rays and can be applied to spellwarped spells. And Empower Spell is a must for any blaster type.
copperwyrmling 10-17-07, 01:13 AM	I recommend Halfling if you're going to use a lot of ranged touch attacks. Grey Elf is good too. I have a human rogue/wizard that died and was reincarnated as a halfling, then died and managed to go back to human. I wish I could make him a halfling again. The size bonuses, (to attack and AC), the Dex bonus, the save bonuses, they were all great to have. I recommend the spells Blast of Flame and Arc of Lightning or Vitriolic Spher for spellwarping. They are all 1d6 a level damage and NO SR. Also, if you have Complete Arcane, consider taking Sculpt Spell, Split Ray and Empower Spell. Sculpt Spell will let you pick and choose what area to effect when you need area spells. Split Ray will double the damage of your rays and can be applied to spellwarped spells. And Empower Spell is a must for any blaster type. My sorc is human and I don't regret that at all - feats were so precious, she needed every one she had (her feats at L14 are Magical Aptitude, Empower Spell, Sculpt Spell, Split Ray, Rapid Metamagic, and Quicken Spell - note that Magical Aptitude is a prereq for Wild Mage, but a Spellwarp Sniper needs Point Blank Shot). Being reincarnated human -> halfling is the best of both worlds, of course.
Timlagor 10-17-07, 07:52 AM	Not just that. The skill points and fair BAB. The other specials aren't that bad either - nondetection always up has some interesting issues. It isn't 100% clear what divination spells it is referring to - are See Invisibility/True Seeing divination spells for purposes of the spell? I'm pretty sure the fact aht SI and TS target the caster makes this clear.
MwaO 10-17-07, 09:41 AM	I'm pretty sure the fact aht SI and TS target the caster makes this clear. That's not at all clear. Clairvoyance is listed as a specific spell that it wards against and the caster views through the magical sensor. i.e. the spell is not targeting the subject of nondetection. Also, SI and TS don't target the caster. I'll point out right now, I'd make the same ruling that you would. That doesn't make it the obvious ruling based on RAW.
WayneTheGame 10-17-07, 10:15 AM	(Posting this under my more familiar alias now) How about mixing Warmage and Spellwarp Sniper? I like the benefits that SS add in, and it really does fit the concept I have in mind, as does Warmage.
KarmaInferno 10-17-07, 03:03 PM	I considered that for my warmage, but decided against it. The loss of caster level to get sneak attack is painful. Additionally, Warmages already have open access to some of the best no-save/no SR damaging magics in the game, the Orb spells. There are few instantaneous area spells in a Warmage's repertoire that when spellwarped will out-do the performance of an Orb spell. -karma
Necrochaos 10-17-07, 06:30 PM	My first LG character was a Warmage. It was also my first arcane build and it was a blast. I got to learn a lot about casting machanics. Just make sure to have a good dex since you will be using touch attacks. Use spells like Hail of Stone and remember that you aren't a fighter. Stay behind the front line. As you level, the game will be more fun as you get more spells to play with. I think you made a great choice considering a Warmage.
Hariman 10-23-07, 04:17 AM	My sorc is human and I don't regret that at all - feats were so precious, she needed every one she had (her feats at L14 are Magical Aptitude, Empower Spell, Sculpt Spell, Split Ray, Rapid Metamagic, and Quicken Spell - note that Magical Aptitude is a prereq for Wild Mage, but a Spellwarp Sniper needs Point Blank Shot). Being reincarnated human -> halfling is the best of both worlds, of course. Yeah, going from human to halfling is a dream come true for a sorcerer. But I went back to human and pine for the days as a halfling.