Non-Dwarf damage producing melee build - comments? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Non-Dwarf damage producing melee build - comments? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_metz_
07-02-07, 10:31 AM Hey all.

I have been thinking of making another melee character for a while now, and there seems to be a plethora of Dwarves around. I myself have a Deepwarden Dwarf in training and a Dwarf Battle Cleric.

I've decided to make a good old fashioned raging half orc, if for no other reason than its iconic, and fun. This build is designed to not be 'Fully' optimal yet still very effective.

Two notes: The wisdom score is deliberately 8 as I don't want my guy casting pious templar spells, he is becoming an occult slayer as well, and whilst I am NOT saying that h=the character will necessarily hate magic, it will just think that being physical is a lot more fun and worthy. For this reason the bloke worships Kord.

Secondly: I went with the Greatsword and Kord over the Falchion and Kelanen because It seemed more in character with the build concept, rather than aiming for the most optimised weapon.

Here we go:

Stats: Half Orc

Str: 17 (all three stat bumps to this)
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 6

Build:

1. Barbarian: Extra Rage
2. Fighter1: *Power Attack
3. Fighter2: *Weapon Focus: Greatsword, True Believer
4. Fighter3:
5. Fighter4: *Improved Bullrush
6. Pious Templar1: *Mettle, Improved Initiative
7. Pious Templar2:
8. Pious Templar3: *Weapon Spec: Greatsword
9. Pious Templar4: *Melee Weapon Mastery, Shocktrooper
10. Occult Slayer1: *Weapon Bond
11. Occult Slayer2:
12. Occult Slayer3: Reckless Rage
13. Occult Slayer4:
14. Occult Slayer5: *Blank Thoughts
15. Barbarian2: *Uncanny Dodge, (FEAT ???)

What do you guys think? I really wanted to place emphasis on good Con and Strength (Rather than the Wood elf dex and str) And with +2 gloves of Dex, This character will be optimised for Mithral full plate.

I am a little unsure of the feat progression, but the character seems to do well throughout its career. I am worrying a little though: Is shocktrooper and power attack enough? do I need combat brute? how do you think this build will fare in APL 12 and above? (I think its definitely fine till APL 10)

- Dave
Mommy was an Orc
07-02-07, 11:01 AM I'm not entirely sure where you think you're being unoptimal other than not worshiping Mayaheine for one level of Exotic Weapon Master/Uncanny Blow(32 Str means 1d10+22 vs 2d6+16, an extra 4.5 damage at the cost of a feat), but where you're finding the feat other than Reckless Rage(+3.5 damage and no need to delay Shock Trooper), I'm not sure.

I assume Improved Init is your 6th level feat?

It seems fine to me - I'd probably shift one level of Occult Slayer to be 7th level.
copper_wyrmling
07-02-07, 11:04 AM I don't see Improved Initiative in there (prereq for Occult Slayer iirc), but you don't have a L6 feat listed, so that problem solves itself ;) Mind you, you might want to take Shock Trooper at L6 and Imp Init at L9.

I think it looks fine (obviously you're giving up some of the power of pious templar by neglecting spellcasting, but that's your choice). Just recognize that this sort of build is rather expensive in terms of party resources (in other words, reckless raging shocktroopers tend to require a lot of healing), so it is polite to bring your own consumables / pearls of power, and NOT default to charging giant monsters 80ft away from the party while reckless raging and assigning your entire PA penalty to AC ;)

I think some people overestimate the nastiness of higher APLs. Most of the problems seem to be people not adapting their playstyle to the new conditions, not any fundamental deficiency in their characters. LG does not, at any level, require optimized PCs (if it did, my L15 cleric with two-weapon-fighting feats would be doomed, as would my friend's grey elf rogue / thief-acrobat with less than 50 HP at L11 - yet they are both highly effective contributors to their parties).
_metz_
07-02-07, 07:40 PM I just realised I hadn't put improved initiative in, but yes, it was meant to be at 6th level.

As for taking Shocktrooper at 6th, I just realised that I could swap it with improved initiative which may work better.

It seems fine to me - I'd probably shift one level of Occult Slayer to be 7th level.

What would you replace it with? Won't that delay Melee Weapon Mastery?
Mommy was an Orc
07-02-07, 11:36 PM What would you replace it with? Won't that delay Melee Weapon Mastery?

No. You get WS from Pious Templar at 9th and take MWM with the 9th level feat choice.
_metz_
07-03-07, 12:00 AM No. You get WS from Pious Templar at 9th and take MWM with the 9th level feat choice.

Ah I see. So you are talking about delaying Pious Templar till 7th level, then what goes in at 6th level? Start Occult Slayer? (Can be done with a feat shift around)

Barbarian 2?
Mommy was an Orc
07-03-07, 09:19 AM Ah I see. So you are talking about delaying Pious Templar till 7th level, then what goes in at 6th level? Start Occult Slayer? (Can be done with a feat shift around)

Barbarian 2?

Not quite. I'm talking about the following:

6: Pious Templar 1: Improved Initiative
7: Occult Slayer 1
8: Pious Templar 2
9: Pious Templar 3: WS, MWM
10: Pious Templar 4: Shock Trooper
11-15 Rest of Build as is

Weapon Specialization probably isn't as useful to you as getting the +1 to all saves, +2 to Will, and Weapon Bond.
_metz_
07-03-07, 10:21 AM Not quite. I'm talking about the following:

6: Pious Templar 1: Improved Initiative
7: Occult Slayer 1
8: Pious Templar 2
9: Pious Templar 3: WS, MWM
10: Pious Templar 4: Shock Trooper
11-15 Rest of Build as is

Weapon Specialization probably isn't as useful to you as getting the +1 to all saves, +2 to Will, and Weapon Bond.

I see, that's what I thought you may have meant but wasn't sure.

Guess this Guy can be a Perrender as well.
rpgdcj
07-08-07, 06:33 PM 9: Pious Templar 3: WS, MWM

I've been seeing this idea a lot on the boards (PT3 gets Weapon Specialization, and taking Melee Weapon Mastery at the same time). I thought the level advancement rules require you to choose a feat before the class features. So, wouldn't the prerequisites for MWM not be met yet?

Sorry to hijack this particular thread, it just happened to be the most recent one in which I've noticed this build choice.
Mommy was an Orc
07-08-07, 07:25 PM I've been seeing this idea a lot on the boards (PT3 gets Weapon Specialization, and taking Melee Weapon Mastery at the same time). I thought the level advancement rules require you to choose a feat before the class features. So, wouldn't the prerequisites for MWM not be met yet?

Sorry to hijack this particular thread, it just happened to be the most recent one in which I've noticed this build choice.

That's not how it works - it all happens simultaneously. As an example, as a Fighter 1, you don't get your BAB +1 until class features - does that mean a Fighter 1 can't take Power Attack?
rpgdcj
07-08-07, 07:37 PM That's not how it works - it all happens simultaneously. As an example, as a Fighter 1, you don't get your BAB +1 until class features - does that mean a Fighter 1 can't take Power Attack?

I was told otherwise by a Triad when I was considering a Monk/Ranger with Ascetic Hunter. He said I had to follow the steps in the PHB (page 58) in order, and since Favored Enemy was a class feature that came after the feat choice, I couldn't take Ascetic Hunter until the next level (which meant the next level had to be Ranger 2, 'cause I couldn't continue as a Monk until I had AH).

By the way, BAB is step 2 in the level advancement process, and feats are step 7. So, yes, you can get Power Attack at Fighter 1.
Mommy was an Orc
07-08-07, 07:59 PM I was told otherwise by a Triad when I was considering a Monk/Ranger with Ascetic Hunter. He said I had to follow the steps in the PHB (page 58) in order, and since Favored Enemy was a class feature that came after the feat choice, I couldn't take Ascetic Hunter until the next level (which meant the next level had to be Ranger 2, 'cause I couldn't continue as a Monk until I had AH).

By the way, BAB is step 2 in the level advancement process, and feats are step 7. So, yes, you can get Power Attack at Fighter 1.

Okay, more specific than that:
page 87 of PHB - "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite"

One of the reasons why Triads are not supposed to make core rulings.
Dr.Cornelius
07-09-07, 02:38 AM ...other than not worshiping Mayaheine for one level of Exotic Weapon Master...Does Mayaheine with War Domain grant Weapon Focus (martial Bastard Sword) or Weapon Focus (exotic Bastard Sword) or can you choose?

I thought I remembered reading that WF from War Domain is the martial, not exotic version...
Dr.Cornelius
07-09-07, 02:40 AM With a -1 Will Save modifier, I would strongly consider Channeled Rage as early as you can fit it in.
_metz_
07-09-07, 03:33 AM With a -1 Will Save modifier, I would strongly consider Channeled Rage as early as you can fit it in.

Possibly, I have considered scrapping this build altogether though, I feel that the Occult Slayer will invite too much flak, and whilst I am more than capable of dishing out better than what I get, I feel it may be easier to just not stray down that path.

I definitely want to build a NON dwarf damage producer though, and Wood elf bugs me so still want to continue with the idea.

Pious Templar is definitely a good Prestige class, and fits in with this 'mobster' theme I am going for with the character. (Contemplating having the guy have 10 charisma and a cohort lol).

I really just want to make a fighter that is good at dishing out damage but isn't optimal and has some character. I already have a Deepwarden dwarf power built monkey elsewhere, and am not in the mood for light infantry.
Dr.Cornelius
07-09-07, 06:36 AM Have you considered a Half-Orc Barbarian Battle Cleric? I am playing one now and it is a good change of pace to have a few spells to throw around.

This character got access to Divine Retaliation spell and the alternate Cleric class feature Domain Spontaneity, both from PH2, but the build works fine with open access.

You can make it work with 14 Wisdom if you buy the Periapt of Wis at 6th and upgrade at 10th and put stat bumps in Wis. Its always fun to see the look on the DMs face when the Barbarian has a +8 Will Save.

Something like this:
Str:18 Dex:14 Con:14 Int:8 Wis:14 Cha:6
Stat bumps to Wis, skill points to Concentration

1 level of Barbarian, then straight Cleric.

Feats:
1. Extra Rage
3. Power Attack
6. Improved Initiative
9. Imp. Bull Rush, retrain Imp. Init. to Shock Trooper

The character concept is kind of a loner mercenary, so I went with Kelanen for Travel and War domains. Kord, Fahrlanghn and a number of others work just as well. St.Cuthbert w/ Domination domain strikes me as a bit mobster like - but maybe its because I live in The Pale.

After Extra Rage the feats are pretty open. CWI at 6th might be optimal if the character has TUs to burn.

Barbarian 1/Cleric 4/Fighter 2/EWM X is another option. The +6/+1 iterative attack is delayed by one level but you get the domain abilities, CWI and decent will save. Anyway, have fun with it.
rpgdcj
07-09-07, 10:03 AM Okay, more specific than that:
page 87 of PHB - "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite"

Excellent find! Ascetic Hunter, here I come (or, I suppose, PT3 with MWM)!

Thanks. A good paralegal can always find the extra rule that clarifies the intent.
Demoyn
07-09-07, 10:26 AM Does Mayaheine with War Domain grant Weapon Focus (martial Bastard Sword) or Weapon Focus (exotic Bastard Sword) or can you choose?

I thought I remembered reading that WF from War Domain is the martial, not exotic version...

The war domain does NOT grant exotic weapon proficiency. You gain only the martial version of the weapon (thus you can use the bastard sword in two hands).
Mommy was an Orc
07-09-07, 10:36 AM Does Mayaheine with War Domain grant Weapon Focus (martial Bastard Sword) or Weapon Focus (exotic Bastard Sword) or can you choose?

I thought I remembered reading that WF from War Domain is the martial, not exotic version...

There is no such thing as either of those - there is simply WF(Bastard Sword)

You can use either Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency to qualify for the feat - War Domain merely gives you Martial.
Dr.Cornelius
07-09-07, 02:49 PM There is no such thing as either of those - there is simply WF(Bastard Sword)

You can use either Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency to qualify for the feat - War Domain merely gives you Martial.So in order to qualify for Exotic Weapon Master, a Cleric of Mayaheine would need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) in addition to the Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) from the War Domain. The net effect s to save one feat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_metz_ 07-02-07, 10:31 AM	Hey all. I have been thinking of making another melee character for a while now, and there seems to be a plethora of Dwarves around. I myself have a Deepwarden Dwarf in training and a Dwarf Battle Cleric. I've decided to make a good old fashioned raging half orc, if for no other reason than its iconic, and fun. This build is designed to not be 'Fully' optimal yet still very effective. Two notes: The wisdom score is deliberately 8 as I don't want my guy casting pious templar spells, he is becoming an occult slayer as well, and whilst I am NOT saying that h=the character will necessarily hate magic, it will just think that being physical is a lot more fun and worthy. For this reason the bloke worships Kord. Secondly: I went with the Greatsword and Kord over the Falchion and Kelanen because It seemed more in character with the build concept, rather than aiming for the most optimised weapon. Here we go: Stats: Half Orc Str: 17 (all three stat bumps to this) Dex: 14 Con: 16 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 6 Build: 1. Barbarian: Extra Rage 2. Fighter1: Power Attack 3. Fighter2: Weapon Focus: Greatsword, True Believer 4. Fighter3: 5. Fighter4: Improved Bullrush 6. Pious Templar1: Mettle, Improved Initiative 7. Pious Templar2: 8. Pious Templar3: Weapon Spec: Greatsword 9. Pious Templar4: Melee Weapon Mastery, Shocktrooper 10. Occult Slayer1: Weapon Bond 11. Occult Slayer2: 12. Occult Slayer3: Reckless Rage 13. Occult Slayer4: 14. Occult Slayer5: Blank Thoughts 15. Barbarian2: *Uncanny Dodge, (FEAT ???) What do you guys think? I really wanted to place emphasis on good Con and Strength (Rather than the Wood elf dex and str) And with +2 gloves of Dex, This character will be optimised for Mithral full plate. I am a little unsure of the feat progression, but the character seems to do well throughout its career. I am worrying a little though: Is shocktrooper and power attack enough? do I need combat brute? how do you think this build will fare in APL 12 and above? (I think its definitely fine till APL 10) - Dave
Mommy was an Orc 07-02-07, 11:01 AM	I'm not entirely sure where you think you're being unoptimal other than not worshiping Mayaheine for one level of Exotic Weapon Master/Uncanny Blow(32 Str means 1d10+22 vs 2d6+16, an extra 4.5 damage at the cost of a feat), but where you're finding the feat other than Reckless Rage(+3.5 damage and no need to delay Shock Trooper), I'm not sure. I assume Improved Init is your 6th level feat? It seems fine to me - I'd probably shift one level of Occult Slayer to be 7th level.
copper_wyrmling 07-02-07, 11:04 AM	I don't see Improved Initiative in there (prereq for Occult Slayer iirc), but you don't have a L6 feat listed, so that problem solves itself ;) Mind you, you might want to take Shock Trooper at L6 and Imp Init at L9. I think it looks fine (obviously you're giving up some of the power of pious templar by neglecting spellcasting, but that's your choice). Just recognize that this sort of build is rather expensive in terms of party resources (in other words, reckless raging shocktroopers tend to require a lot of healing), so it is polite to bring your own consumables / pearls of power, and NOT default to charging giant monsters 80ft away from the party while reckless raging and assigning your entire PA penalty to AC ;) I think some people overestimate the nastiness of higher APLs. Most of the problems seem to be people not adapting their playstyle to the new conditions, not any fundamental deficiency in their characters. LG does not, at any level, require optimized PCs (if it did, my L15 cleric with two-weapon-fighting feats would be doomed, as would my friend's grey elf rogue / thief-acrobat with less than 50 HP at L11 - yet they are both highly effective contributors to their parties).
_metz_ 07-02-07, 07:40 PM	I just realised I hadn't put improved initiative in, but yes, it was meant to be at 6th level. As for taking Shocktrooper at 6th, I just realised that I could swap it with improved initiative which may work better. It seems fine to me - I'd probably shift one level of Occult Slayer to be 7th level. What would you replace it with? Won't that delay Melee Weapon Mastery?
Mommy was an Orc 07-02-07, 11:36 PM	What would you replace it with? Won't that delay Melee Weapon Mastery? No. You get WS from Pious Templar at 9th and take MWM with the 9th level feat choice.
_metz_ 07-03-07, 12:00 AM	No. You get WS from Pious Templar at 9th and take MWM with the 9th level feat choice. Ah I see. So you are talking about delaying Pious Templar till 7th level, then what goes in at 6th level? Start Occult Slayer? (Can be done with a feat shift around) Barbarian 2?
Mommy was an Orc 07-03-07, 09:19 AM	Ah I see. So you are talking about delaying Pious Templar till 7th level, then what goes in at 6th level? Start Occult Slayer? (Can be done with a feat shift around) Barbarian 2? Not quite. I'm talking about the following: 6: Pious Templar 1: Improved Initiative 7: Occult Slayer 1 8: Pious Templar 2 9: Pious Templar 3: WS, MWM 10: Pious Templar 4: Shock Trooper 11-15 Rest of Build as is Weapon Specialization probably isn't as useful to you as getting the +1 to all saves, +2 to Will, and Weapon Bond.
_metz_ 07-03-07, 10:21 AM	Not quite. I'm talking about the following: 6: Pious Templar 1: Improved Initiative 7: Occult Slayer 1 8: Pious Templar 2 9: Pious Templar 3: WS, MWM 10: Pious Templar 4: Shock Trooper 11-15 Rest of Build as is Weapon Specialization probably isn't as useful to you as getting the +1 to all saves, +2 to Will, and Weapon Bond. I see, that's what I thought you may have meant but wasn't sure. Guess this Guy can be a Perrender as well.
rpgdcj 07-08-07, 06:33 PM	9: Pious Templar 3: WS, MWM I've been seeing this idea a lot on the boards (PT3 gets Weapon Specialization, and taking Melee Weapon Mastery at the same time). I thought the level advancement rules require you to choose a feat before the class features. So, wouldn't the prerequisites for MWM not be met yet? Sorry to hijack this particular thread, it just happened to be the most recent one in which I've noticed this build choice.
Mommy was an Orc 07-08-07, 07:25 PM	I've been seeing this idea a lot on the boards (PT3 gets Weapon Specialization, and taking Melee Weapon Mastery at the same time). I thought the level advancement rules require you to choose a feat before the class features. So, wouldn't the prerequisites for MWM not be met yet? Sorry to hijack this particular thread, it just happened to be the most recent one in which I've noticed this build choice. That's not how it works - it all happens simultaneously. As an example, as a Fighter 1, you don't get your BAB +1 until class features - does that mean a Fighter 1 can't take Power Attack?
rpgdcj 07-08-07, 07:37 PM	That's not how it works - it all happens simultaneously. As an example, as a Fighter 1, you don't get your BAB +1 until class features - does that mean a Fighter 1 can't take Power Attack? I was told otherwise by a Triad when I was considering a Monk/Ranger with Ascetic Hunter. He said I had to follow the steps in the PHB (page 58) in order, and since Favored Enemy was a class feature that came after the feat choice, I couldn't take Ascetic Hunter until the next level (which meant the next level had to be Ranger 2, 'cause I couldn't continue as a Monk until I had AH). By the way, BAB is step 2 in the level advancement process, and feats are step 7. So, yes, you can get Power Attack at Fighter 1.
Mommy was an Orc 07-08-07, 07:59 PM	I was told otherwise by a Triad when I was considering a Monk/Ranger with Ascetic Hunter. He said I had to follow the steps in the PHB (page 58) in order, and since Favored Enemy was a class feature that came after the feat choice, I couldn't take Ascetic Hunter until the next level (which meant the next level had to be Ranger 2, 'cause I couldn't continue as a Monk until I had AH). By the way, BAB is step 2 in the level advancement process, and feats are step 7. So, yes, you can get Power Attack at Fighter 1. Okay, more specific than that: page 87 of PHB - "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite" One of the reasons why Triads are not supposed to make core rulings.
Dr.Cornelius 07-09-07, 02:38 AM	...other than not worshiping Mayaheine for one level of Exotic Weapon Master...Does Mayaheine with War Domain grant Weapon Focus (martial Bastard Sword) or Weapon Focus (exotic Bastard Sword) or can you choose? I thought I remembered reading that WF from War Domain is the martial, not exotic version...
Dr.Cornelius 07-09-07, 02:40 AM	With a -1 Will Save modifier, I would strongly consider Channeled Rage as early as you can fit it in.
_metz_ 07-09-07, 03:33 AM	With a -1 Will Save modifier, I would strongly consider Channeled Rage as early as you can fit it in. Possibly, I have considered scrapping this build altogether though, I feel that the Occult Slayer will invite too much flak, and whilst I am more than capable of dishing out better than what I get, I feel it may be easier to just not stray down that path. I definitely want to build a NON dwarf damage producer though, and Wood elf bugs me so still want to continue with the idea. Pious Templar is definitely a good Prestige class, and fits in with this 'mobster' theme I am going for with the character. (Contemplating having the guy have 10 charisma and a cohort lol). I really just want to make a fighter that is good at dishing out damage but isn't optimal and has some character. I already have a Deepwarden dwarf power built monkey elsewhere, and am not in the mood for light infantry.
Dr.Cornelius 07-09-07, 06:36 AM	Have you considered a Half-Orc Barbarian Battle Cleric? I am playing one now and it is a good change of pace to have a few spells to throw around. This character got access to Divine Retaliation spell and the alternate Cleric class feature Domain Spontaneity, both from PH2, but the build works fine with open access. You can make it work with 14 Wisdom if you buy the Periapt of Wis at 6th and upgrade at 10th and put stat bumps in Wis. Its always fun to see the look on the DMs face when the Barbarian has a +8 Will Save. Something like this: Str:18 Dex:14 Con:14 Int:8 Wis:14 Cha:6 Stat bumps to Wis, skill points to Concentration 1 level of Barbarian, then straight Cleric. Feats: 1. Extra Rage 3. Power Attack 6. Improved Initiative 9. Imp. Bull Rush, retrain Imp. Init. to Shock Trooper The character concept is kind of a loner mercenary, so I went with Kelanen for Travel and War domains. Kord, Fahrlanghn and a number of others work just as well. St.Cuthbert w/ Domination domain strikes me as a bit mobster like - but maybe its because I live in The Pale. After Extra Rage the feats are pretty open. CWI at 6th might be optimal if the character has TUs to burn. Barbarian 1/Cleric 4/Fighter 2/EWM X is another option. The +6/+1 iterative attack is delayed by one level but you get the domain abilities, CWI and decent will save. Anyway, have fun with it.
rpgdcj 07-09-07, 10:03 AM	Okay, more specific than that: page 87 of PHB - "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite" Excellent find! Ascetic Hunter, here I come (or, I suppose, PT3 with MWM)! Thanks. A good paralegal can always find the extra rule that clarifies the intent.
Demoyn 07-09-07, 10:26 AM	Does Mayaheine with War Domain grant Weapon Focus (martial Bastard Sword) or Weapon Focus (exotic Bastard Sword) or can you choose? I thought I remembered reading that WF from War Domain is the martial, not exotic version... The war domain does NOT grant exotic weapon proficiency. You gain only the martial version of the weapon (thus you can use the bastard sword in two hands).
Mommy was an Orc 07-09-07, 10:36 AM	Does Mayaheine with War Domain grant Weapon Focus (martial Bastard Sword) or Weapon Focus (exotic Bastard Sword) or can you choose? I thought I remembered reading that WF from War Domain is the martial, not exotic version... There is no such thing as either of those - there is simply WF(Bastard Sword) You can use either Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency to qualify for the feat - War Domain merely gives you Martial.
Dr.Cornelius 07-09-07, 02:49 PM	There is no such thing as either of those - there is simply WF(Bastard Sword) You can use either Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency to qualify for the feat - War Domain merely gives you Martial.So in order to qualify for Exotic Weapon Master, a Cleric of Mayaheine would need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) in addition to the Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) from the War Domain. The net effect s to save one feat.