Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mithreinmaethor 02-12-07, 03:39 AM	Well since we have them lets toss some builds around. I have 1 or 2 in mind but am really struggling with feat selections. So I want to see what others have on their minds. Gnome (S:10 D:15 C:12 I:16 W:10 C:10) 1 - Beguiler - Feat: Dodge 2 - Beguiler 3 - Beguiler - Feat: Titan Fighting 4 - Beguiler 5 - Beguiler 6 - Beguiler - Feat: Spell Focus - Illusion 7 - Nightmare Spinner 8 - Nightmare Spinner 9 - Nightmare Spinner - Feat: ? 10 - Nightmare Spinner 11 - Nightmare Spinner 12 - Beguiler - Feat: ? 13 - Beguiler 14 - Beguiler 15 - Beguiler - Feat: ?
Evanta 02-12-07, 03:59 AM	Gray Elf Beguiler (INT 18) C1 Spell Focus: Enchantment (make dat DC hard to pass) C3 Unsettling Enchantment (even if they pass, they will still suffer) C6 Arcane Mastery (trump SR reliably) C9 Improved Initiative (Cloaked Casting is now useful enough that you want to try catch them flat-footed) C12 Meta-magic Subschool C15 ? Another route would be to make full use of Rapid Metamagic I suppose. Meta-magic Sub-school means you don't fear being silenced or grappled much anymore.
Vanadium 02-12-07, 08:39 AM	Well since we have them lets toss some builds around. I have 1 or 2 in mind but am really struggling with feat selections. So I want to see what others have on their minds. Gnome (S:10 D:15 C:12 I:16 W:10 C:10) 1 - Beguiler - Feat: Dodge 2 - Beguiler 3 - Beguiler - Feat: Titan Fighting 4 - Beguiler 5 - Beguiler 6 - Beguiler - Feat: Spell Focus - Illusion 7 - Nightmare Spinner 8 - Nightmare Spinner 9 - Nightmare Spinner - Feat: ? 10 - Nightmare Spinner 11 - Nightmare Spinner 12 - Beguiler - Feat: ? 13 - Beguiler 14 - Beguiler 15 - Beguiler - Feat: ? Gnome and Beguiler with no Shadowcraft Mage? If I were to make a Beguiler, I would most certainly go down the path of the Shadowcraft Mage. Think about it this way: At 11th level, you will be able to spontaneously cast all spells on your spell list, in Evocation, and most Conjurations. Get Heighten Spell and you are 1 full round and 1 silent image away from a massive list of spells. It gets even better if you can mix in Earth Spell, but doing this eats all of your feats until level 9. It also need 13 wisdom, which kinda hurts in point-buy. That, and you might see table variation on the spell level you can mimick. Not that there is any cause for table variation, due to the wording of the ability, but I could see it happening. Besides, its not like you lose anything. Put a few ranks in class-skills, remain a full-caster, and get abilities keyed to your strengths. That, and blast as a Beguiler, if you so will.
Mithreinmaethor 02-12-07, 10:22 AM	Gnome and Beguiler with no Shadowcraft Mage? If I were to make a Beguiler, I would most certainly go down the path of the Shadowcraft Mage. Think about it this way: At 11th level, you will be able to spontaneously cast all spells on your spell list, in Evocation, and most Conjurations. Get Heighten Spell and you are 1 full round and 1 silent image away from a massive list of spells. It gets even better if you can mix in Earth Spell, but doing this eats all of your feats until level 9. It also need 13 wisdom, which kinda hurts in point-buy. That, and you might see table variation on the spell level you can mimick. Not that there is any cause for table variation, due to the wording of the ability, but I could see it happening. Besides, its not like you lose anything. Put a few ranks in class-skills, remain a full-caster, and get abilities keyed to your strengths. That, and blast as a Beguiler, if you so will. Beguilers dont have a Shadow spell high enough to take Shadowcraft Mage. He could at the earliest qualify for it at 12th level with the Advanced Learning from 11th level to take a 4th level shadow spell. I have thought about throwing it in for the last couple of levels but still havent decided
Mithreinmaethor 02-12-07, 10:51 AM	So how about this as a modification of the above build. It has 14 levels of casting (1st thru 7th level Spells) and decent PRC abilities added to the base class. Gnome (S:10 D:15 C:12 I:16 W:10 C:10) 1 - Beguiler - Feat: Dodge 2 - Beguiler 3 - Beguiler - Feat: Titan Fighting 4 - Beguiler 5 - Beguiler 6 - Beguiler - Feat: ? 7 - Nightmare Spinner 8 - Nightmare Spinner 9 - Nightmare Spinner - Feat: ? 10 - Beguiler 11 - Shadowcraft Mage 12 - Shadowcraft Mage - Feat: ? 13 - Shadowcraft Mage 14 - Shadowcraft Mage 15 - Shadowcraft Mage - Feat: ?
Alpha_Nerd 02-12-07, 03:20 PM	Nevermind
Mithreinmaethor 02-12-07, 03:27 PM	Nevermind Oh sure tempt us with your wisdom :)
Mommy was an Orc 02-12-07, 04:12 PM	Beguilers dont have a Shadow spell high enough to take Shadowcraft Mage. He could at the earliest qualify for it at 12th level with the Advanced Learning from 11th level to take a 4th level shadow spell. I have thought about throwing it in for the last couple of levels but still havent decided You can qualify for Shadowcraft Mage at 8th so as to take it at 9th. 1-6: Beguiler 1-6 7: Unseen Seer 1(or Mindbender with access or for that matter, any PrC that advances casting by one level at 1st) 8: Beguiler 7 - Shadow Conjuration... 9-13: Shadowcraft Mage 14: Unseen Seer 2: take your pick of a Divination spell 15: Beguiler 8
Jay_Ibero_911 02-12-07, 05:06 PM	You can qualify for Shadowcraft Mage at 8th so as to take it at 9th. 1-6: Beguiler 1-6 7: Unseen Seer 1(or Mindbender with access or for that matter, any PrC that advances casting by one level at 1st) 8: Beguiler 7 - Shadow Conjuration... 9-13: Shadowcraft Mage 14: Unseen Seer 2: take your pick of a Divination spell 15: Beguiler 8 Ahah, sneaky way of delaying the advaned learning by one level to learn shadow conjuration...
Vanadium 02-12-07, 06:32 PM	I can't remember off the top of my head, but isn't there a lower level shadow spell on the Beguiler list? If you use Heighten Spell, that should qualify you. If there isn't such a spell, you could always pick up something Shadowy and Core from the Spells Compendium like Shadow Binding. Of course, this is less straightforward as I could forsee a DM stating that the ability to cast Spell X as a Fourth level spell isn't good enough for the pre-requisites. 'Course, with things like Unseen Seer and the tantalizing possibility of the Mindbender, it might be best to simply skirt past controversy, take a level in one of these, pick up your Shadow Evocation, and go nuts. You get the Shadowcraft Mage's big ability later this way, though. It would probably be okay in the long-run.
Mommy was an Orc 02-12-07, 06:55 PM	I can't remember off the top of my head, but isn't there a lower level shadow spell on the Beguiler list? If you use Heighten Spell, that should qualify you. If there isn't such a spell, you could always pick up something Shadowy and Core from the Spells Compendium like Shadow Binding. Of course, this is less straightforward as I could forsee a DM stating that the ability to cast Spell X as a Fourth level spell isn't good enough for the pre-requisites. 'Course, with things like Unseen Seer and the tantalizing possibility of the Mindbender, it might be best to simply skirt past controversy, take a level in one of these, pick up your Shadow Evocation, and go nuts. You get the Shadowcraft Mage's big ability later this way, though. It would probably be okay in the long-run. You get it at the exact same point in time - you can't cast 4th level spells until 8th level in any case. And quite honestly, anyone pulling the Earth Heighten Spell weirdness is asking to be turned into a lower level spellcaster.
Mithreinmaethor 02-12-07, 07:07 PM	So how about this as a modification of the above build. It has 14 levels of casting (1st thru 7th level Spells) and decent PRC abilities added to the base class. Gnome (S:10 D:15 C:12 I:16 W:10 C:10) 1 - Beguiler - Feat: Dodge 2 - Beguiler 3 - Beguiler - Feat: Titan Fighting 4 - Beguiler 5 - Beguiler 6 - Beguiler - Feat: ? 7 - Nightmare Spinner 8 - Nightmare Spinner 9 - Nightmare Spinner - Feat: ? 10 - Beguiler 11 - Shadowcraft Mage 12 - Shadowcraft Mage - Feat: ? 13 - Shadowcraft Mage 14 - Shadowcraft Mage 15 - Shadowcraft Mage - Feat: ? So any ideas on the remaining 4 feats with this ? I am sure the Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetrations are decent ideas. Just not sure what to throw in when
Vanadium 02-12-07, 09:14 PM	You get it at the exact same point in time - you can't cast 4th level spells until 8th level in any case. And quite honestly, anyone pulling the Earth Heighten Spell weirdness is asking to be turned into a lower level spellcaster. Right you are. Something wasn't getting through when I posted that. I guess an hour of sleep the night before does that to you. Earth Spell is certainly weird, but at the same time it should be entirely usable. Then again, I've been noticing it requires more wisdom than you'd like and two feats that a feat-starved character such as the Beguiler would probably get better use of elsewhere. Like I said, it doesn't seem to be something that warrants a smack from the DM, but I also give you that I am a poor judge of such things. At the same time, I concede that it isn't needed, and the Shadowcraft Mage is more than adequate for the Beguiler without any fancy tricks. So any ideas on the remaining 4 feats with this ? I am sure the Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetrations are decent ideas. Just not sure what to throw in when Arcane Mastery couldn't hurt. Most of your spells need Spell Resistance, and taking 10 can often be better than a little bump, especially if the enemies are only moderately resistant. And, nothing is stopping you from adding those together, either. Also, I'd get the Shadowcraft Mage levels sooner than the Nightmare Spinner levels, but that's just me.
Mithreinmaethor 02-13-07, 07:27 AM	Well thinking of just taking 1 Nightmare Spinner level now. Just when to take it. Cant take it until after 9th level anyhow. But its Immunity to Fear and adding 1 extra spell slot per spell level (for use with an illusion spell) cant be sneezed at. Not that I wont have enough spells anyhow.
Sieylianna 02-13-07, 07:48 AM	I think Rhennee humans are the prototypical beguilers. Take spell focus and greater spell focus as your human bonus feat. I have a low level rhennee rogue who would have done that if it was an option at the time and may still follow that route. Ed
Mommy was an Orc 02-13-07, 09:41 AM	Like I said, it doesn't seem to be something that warrants a smack from the DM, but I also give you that I am a poor judge of such things. At the same time, I concede that it isn't needed, and the Shadowcraft Mage is more than adequate for the Beguiler without any fancy tricks. You're going to get serious table variation. You're entering a powerful PrC early due to taking the rules very literally. When people see the 4th level spell, they'll ask you how you're pulling this off.
Mithreinmaethor 02-13-07, 09:49 AM	I really need to go to bed. But I threw together a Beguiler 6 / Rogue 5 / Unseen Seer 4 build for the heck of it. I will post it later. But has 5d6 sneak attack, Eldritch Erosion (Complete Scoundrel feat), Dodge, Titan Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Arcane Master and probably either Practiced Spellcaster or Spell Penetration. Taking Beguiler Advanced Learning - Distract Assailant (believe it or not its the only spell you can take at 3rd level as a Beguiler that I could find thats Open) Taking Unseen Seer Advanced Learning - Critical Strike Probably be using a Rapier and a Hand crossbow (maybe shortbow) for weapons. Probably try and get mith chain shirt and an enchanted buckler of some type. The Beguiler specials go well with sneak attacking also. Its best for me to stay at range but if something gets close I will have a little sting.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-13-07, 10:06 AM	I really need to go to bed. But I threw together a Beguiler 6 / Rogue 5 / Unseen Seer 4 build for the heck of it. I will post it later. But has 5d6 sneak attack, Eldritch Erosion (Complete Scoundrel feat), Dodge, Titan Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Arcane Master and probably either Practiced Spellcaster or Spell Penetration. Taking Beguiler Advanced Learning - Distract Assailant (believe it or not its the only spell you can take at 3rd level as a Beguiler that I could find thats Open) Taking Unseen Seer Advanced Learning - Critical Strike Probably be using a Rapier and a Hand crossbow (maybe shortbow) for weapons. Probably try and get mith chain shirt and an enchanted buckler of some type. The Beguiler specials go well with sneak attacking also. Its best for me to stay at range but if something gets close I will have a little sting. Actually right out of the PHB there are several open options for the Beguiler's 1st advanced learning: Magic Aura Ventriloquism And from other sources: Distract Assailant (As you mentioned) Friendly Face Okay...not a huge list of Open options...But still...better than one option.
Alpha_Nerd 02-13-07, 10:28 AM	Wouldn't Beguilers make good spellswords/eldritch knights? They have a d6 HD, nice buffs, some immediate actions battle-control spells, enough spells per day to fuel arcane strike, and top if off with armored casting. Fighter 1/Beguiler 6/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 7 As far as feats I'm not quite sure what I would do. I'd probably try and find some weird combat style for the character. What are the rules for using a two-handed weapon while casting? Can you hold the weapon in one hand while you cast and then two-hand it again afterwards? Maybe a shield bash build with armor spikes? I know there is a tactical feat for that monstrosity of a combination.
Vanadium 02-13-07, 11:45 AM	You're going to get serious table variation. You're entering a powerful PrC early due to taking the rules very literally. When people see the 4th level spell, they'll ask you how you're pulling this off. I think we might not be talking about the same Earth Spell trick, seeing as the Beguilers would be entering Shadowcraft Mage at the exact same time with either method (the delayed advanced learning or the heighten). The one I was talking about was simply taking a second level spell, like Shadow Binding, and applying Heighten Spell to it. It would be in all ways a fourth level spell, at least by what Heighten Spell suggests. Earth Spell would just be there to give Heighten a little more 'oomph'. I am also familiar with a far cheesier trick advocated in the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook where if you have Earth Spell and third level spells, you 'technically' have the ability to cast fourth level spells (as long as Earth Spell can activate), as that's exactly what a Heightened, Earth Spelled Third or lower Spell is. That smacks so much of cheese its not funny, and its not what I'm advocating. I don't even think its possible to get all the feats needed to make this trick worthwhile without flaws, and we can't use those for obvious reasons. Unseen Seer is probably the best way to get access to the class in a timely manner, outside of lucky access to Mindbender or something. Don't need to fool with any Heighten tricks for prerequisites, either.
Mithreinmaethor 02-13-07, 07:43 PM	Ok as I promised here is my Beguiler / Rogue / Unseen Seer build I did when I was wat bored. So tell me what ya think Gnome (Starting Stats - S: 10 D:16 C:12 I:16 W:10 C:8) 1 - Beguiler - Feat: Dodge - Armored Mage (light), Trapfinding 2 - Rogue - Sneak Attack +1d6 3 - Rogue - Feat: Titan Fighting - Evasion 4 - Beguiler - Cloaked Casting (+1 DC), Surprise Casting 5 - Beguiler - Advanced Learning - Distract Assailant 6 - Unseen Seer - Feat: Weapon Finesse - Sneak Attack +2d6 7 - Unseen Seer - Advanced Learning - Critical Strike, Silent Spell 8 - Unseen Seer - Divination Spell Power +1 9 - Unseen Seer - Feat:Arcane Mastery, Sneak Attack +3d6 10 - Unseen Seer - Advanced Learning - Golem Strike, Guarded Mind 11 - Rogue - Sneak Attack +4d6, Trap Sense +1 12 - Beguiler - Feat: Eldritch Erosion 13 - Beguiler 14 - Beguiler - Surprise Casting (Move Action) 15 - Beguiler - Feat: Practiced Spell Caster - Advanced Learning - ? I am not very good at optimizing stuff but at least its an idea. The spells and Beguiler abilities mesh well with Rogue and Sneak Attack. The Unseen Seer also stacks well with this plus gives me Grave Strike for those pesky undead, Golem Strike for those stupid Golems and 1 undecided Illusion or Enchantment spell 1st thru 5th I have not decided upon. Yes I do know my last 2 levels will be at -20% exps and gold. Just means I can have more fun with him
jstorrie 02-14-07, 02:12 AM	Trapspringer gishlike: Note that this build incurs xp penalties at two levels (4 and 6). This is a delay of about 1000xp, or 1-2 mods. This is not necessarily a penalty if you watch your consumables use at those levels, so as to not fall behind curve; an extra two mods of favours/access don't hurt. Grey Elf Str 12 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 18 Wis 8 Cha 8 1 Beguiler Dodge 2 Swashbuckler 3 Swashbuckler Weapon Focus: Rapier 4 Swashbuckler 5 Beguiler 6 Fighter Mobility, Combat Casting 7 Fighter Combat Expertise 8 Bladesinger 9 Beguiler Elusive Target (Advanced Learning: Bladeweave) 10 Bladesinger 11 Bladesinger 12 Bladesinger Arcane Strike 13 Bladesinger 14 Bladesinger 15 Bladesinger Skill Focus: Craft (Basketweaving) The perks of this build are: a) trapfinding with a high-int character b) bladeweave on a functional melee character (for impromptu battlefield control) c) Arcane Strike and Swashbuckler damage bonus to deal respectable amounts of damage d) Elusive Target, quickenable defensive Beguiler spells, and high AC (Dex, Int, mithril breastplate, mithril buckler, buffs) to function as an excellent cork
Mommy was an Orc 02-14-07, 10:07 AM	Trapspringer gishlike: Note that this build incurs xp penalties at two levels (4 and 6). This is a delay of about 1000xp, or 1-2 mods. This is not necessarily a penalty if you watch your consumables use at those levels, so as to not fall behind curve; an extra two mods of favours/access don't hurt. Grey Elf Str 12 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 18 Wis 8 Cha 8 Swashbuckler/Bladesinger are a trap in this build when you include Arcane Strike - with 2.5 extra levels of spells, you get +3, +3d4 damage. With Improved Combat Expertise, that's most of your AC and Swashbuckler bonus damage right there - without needing a superhigh Int to fuel it. Not to mention, no need to limit yourself to a subpar weapon, focus primarily on Dex or go Grey Elf. Remember, for melee builds, Quicken True Strike/Improved Disarm ought to be nightmarishly good with a Beguiler and Unseen Seer can be used to give them True Strike... Beguiler can be a melee build...
Alpha_Nerd 02-14-07, 10:23 AM	Human STR 15 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 16 WIS 8 CHA 8 1 Beguiler Power Attack, Improved Bullrush 2 Fighter Improved Shield Bash 3 Beguiler Weapon Focus: Spiked Shield 4 Beguiler STR +1 5 Beguiler 6 Unseen Seer Battlecaster 7 Unseen Seer 8 Spellsword STR +1 9 Eldritch Knight Shock Trooper, Some Shield Feat Probably 10 Eldritch Knight 11 Eldritch Knight 12 Eldritch Knight Some different Shield Feat Probably STR +1 13 Eldritch Knight 14 Eldritch Knight 15 Eldritch Knight Probably another Shield Feat My advanced learning is probably going to be swift invisibility and my Unseen Seer spell will probably be Critical Strike.
Vanadium 02-14-07, 01:27 PM	Human STR 15 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 16 WIS 8 CHA 8 1 Beguiler Power Attack, Improved Bullrush 2 Fighter Improved Shield Bash 3 Beguiler Weapon Focus: Spiked Shield 4 Beguiler STR +1 5 Beguiler 6 Unseen Seer Battlecaster 7 Unseen Seer 8 Spellsword STR +1 9 Eldritch Knight Shock Trooper, Some Shield Feat Probably 10 Eldritch Knight 11 Eldritch Knight 12 Eldritch Knight Some different Shield Feat Probably STR +1 13 Eldritch Knight 14 Eldritch Knight 15 Eldritch Knight Probably another Shield Feat My advanced learning is probably going to be swift invisibility and my Unseen Seer spell will probably be Critical Strike. You might run into problems if you mix Sword and Shield with casting, just like a cleric would. I would fully expect that you'd need to qualify for the whole "must have a free hand" deal to cast spells. What do the Improved Shield Bash and Weapon Focus do for you? You aren't taking anything in the way of Two Weapon Fighting, and you have access to all martial weapons. You should be able to get away with a two-handed weapon, what with all the nice defensive buffs you can rattle off on the fly. Plus, Power Attack loves two-handed weapons. For those feat slots, you need to have a certain amount of intelligence anyway. Why not go Combat Expertise and Improved Trip/Disarm? Arcane Strike, as MWAO said, is also a good thing. Too bad that with the Beguiler's delayed spell progression and the lost caster levels, the first time you can take it is level 9.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-14-07, 01:46 PM	You might run into problems if you mix Sword and Shield with casting, just like a cleric would. I would fully expect that you'd need to qualify for the whole "must have a free hand" deal to cast spells. What do the Improved Shield Bash and Weapon Focus do for you? You aren't taking anything in the way of Two Weapon Fighting, and you have access to all martial weapons. You should be able to get away with a two-handed weapon, what with all the nice defensive buffs you can rattle off on the fly. Plus, Power Attack loves two-handed weapons. For those feat slots, you need to have a certain amount of intelligence anyway. Why not go Combat Expertise and Improved Trip/Disarm? Arcane Strike, as MWAO said, is also a good thing. Too bad that with the Beguiler's delayed spell progression and the lost caster levels, the first time you can take it is level 9. Somatic Weaponry gets around this. One feat, and forget about having your hands full.
jstorrie 02-14-07, 03:18 PM	Swashbuckler/Bladesinger are a trap in this build when you include Arcane Strike - with 2.5 extra levels of spells, you get +3, +3d4 damage. With Improved Combat Expertise, that's most of your AC and Swashbuckler bonus damage right there - without needing a superhigh Int to fuel it. Not to mention, no need to limit yourself to a subpar weapon, focus primarily on Dex or go Grey Elf. I think that comes down first to a question of cost and availability - Swashbuckler damage bonus is always on, and doesn't cost spell slots. It's also available much earlier in the PC's career. If you're not focusing on Dex, AC becomes an issue as well. There are ups and downs, though I definitely see how an Unseen-Seer dipping Beguiler could do interesting things in melee without much multiclassing. But Beguiler and Unseen Seer hit dice are notably smaller than d10... I think we're discussing two different builds at this point, rather than examining just one. A defensive Bladesinger cork needs things that an offensive Beg/US light infantry doesn't, and vice versa.
Mommy was an Orc 02-14-07, 04:49 PM	I think that comes down first to a question of cost and availability - Swashbuckler damage bonus is always on, and doesn't cost spell slots. It's also available much earlier in the PC's career. You have a 12 Strength/12 Con to get that 18 Int and you're using a Rapier. Simply being a 14 Str/14 Dex/14 Con/16 Int Human means that those 'smaller' hit dice are a bit more competitive. Retrain that Human feat into Improved Toughness, and your feats/hit points are actually roughly the same. Now use a Greatsword with that Fighter level and you're now doing 2d6+3 instead of 1d6+5. Except your damage works on everything and you don't need Weapon Finesse. Something similar happens with Bladesinger - the build doesn't really need WF: Rapier or Combat Casting other than you're going into it. Unseen Seer means with 2 levels of it, you get the ability to go into Spellsword. So a Beguiler 4/Fighter 1/Unseen Seer 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 5 - now you've got a +12 BAB, 13th level caster build with an extra feat instead of a +13 BAB/7th level caster.
jstorrie 02-14-07, 07:22 PM	Your Unseen Seer / Beguiler gish build looks like a very competent triple threat. The Bladesinger build has a couple of advantages - mostly around having a higher prebuffed AC - but I agree that overall, not using Bladesinger is the numerically superior option. This is likely because Bladesinger is a really terrible class. It'd still be very good to work out some way to pick up Bladeweave with a Beguiler gish, though. I'm not sure how a true gish could pull this off, since it requires delaying Advanced Learning with a PrC dip, and there's no way to delay long enough without losing caster levels. True Strike is not a comparable substitute because it's not swift; there aren't many situations where I'd want my melee to step back and cast for a round. That Bladesinger build is primarily built around abusing Bladeweave, so again, I'm not sure that I'm after the same thing with it as you with your more generally optimal gish.
Mommy was an Orc 02-14-07, 07:52 PM	It'd still be very good to work out some way to pick up Bladeweave with a Beguiler gish, though. I'm not sure how a true gish could pull this off, since it requires delaying Advanced Learning with a PrC dip, and there's no way to delay long enough without losing caster levels. True Strike is not a comparable substitute because it's not swift; there aren't many situations where I'd want my melee to step back and cast for a round. That Bladesinger build is primarily built around abusing Bladeweave, so again, I'm not sure that I'm after the same thing with it as you with your more generally optimal gish. Remember, Bladeweave is both a spell and a result of a class feature... :) So many builds now involve contemplating retraining as part of them, that there's going to be two groups of players - those who growl at players abusing retraining and those who abuse retraining.
jstorrie 02-14-07, 08:11 PM	I don't think you can, as written, use retraining to pick Bladeweave up if you couldn't pick it up in the first place. Any retraining choices had to have been legal for you to take in the first place, so you can't use it to get around Advanced Learning.
Mommy was an Orc 02-14-07, 08:35 PM	I don't think you can, as written, use retraining to pick Bladeweave up if you couldn't pick it up in the first place. Any retraining choices had to have been legal for you to take in the first place, so you can't use it to get around Advanced Learning. Hmm...that is a problem. But I think if you're talking about only using 3 or so levels of Beguiler, it makes more sense to swap out Wizard. A Rogue 1/Wizard 1/Fighter 1/Monk 2/Unseen Seer 4/Enlightened Fist 6 style build can be lots of fun now. Especially with Grave Strike and Bladeweave as options. The Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 Unseen Seer :)
Archwolf 02-14-07, 09:12 PM	Hmm...that is a problem. But I think if you're talking about only using 3 or so levels of Beguiler, it makes more sense to swap out Wizard. A Rogue 1/Wizard 1/Fighter 1/Monk 2/Unseen Seer 4/Enlightened Fist 6 style build can be lots of fun now. Especially with Grave Strike and Bladeweave as options. The Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 Unseen Seer :) Well, now you've abandoned the whole beguiler premise! But I have another question: Are you guys a at all worried about the Unseen Seer penalty to non-divinations? If you get to US 3, you have a -1 caster level on all the non-div spells. When I imagine beguiler builds with US, I avoid more than two levels of US for this reason.
jstorrie 02-14-07, 09:35 PM	Assumedly any multiclass Beguiler build will be picking up Practiced Spellcaster at some point, which will mitigate some of that. A well-chosen Reserve feat can help as well.
Alpha_Nerd 02-14-07, 11:18 PM	You might run into problems if you mix Sword and Shield with casting, just like a cleric would. I would fully expect that you'd need to qualify for the whole "must have a free hand" deal to cast spells. What do the Improved Shield Bash and Weapon Focus do for you? You aren't taking anything in the way of Two Weapon Fighting, and you have access to all martial weapons. You should be able to get away with a two-handed weapon, what with all the nice defensive buffs you can rattle off on the fly. Plus, Power Attack loves two-handed weapons. I was thinking about Using my shield as my primary attack and keeping my other hand empty to avoid the whole no-free-hands thing. Also, I did the shield stuff because while the build was rather vanilla-gishy in classes, I wanted his combat style to be different.
jstorrie 02-15-07, 12:25 PM	If that's your aim, you might as well just use a buckler instead of a shield. It's only a loss of 1AC, and frees up feats.
boolean 02-15-07, 12:39 PM	My advanced learning is probably going to be swift invisibility and my Unseen Seer spell will probably be Critical Strike. The beguiler's advanced learning can only pick spells from the Sor/Wiz list. Swift invisibility isn't on that list. (Assassins, bards, and duskblades get it.) Arcane Strike, as MWAO said, is also a good thing. Too bad that with the Beguiler's delayed spell progression and the lost caster levels, the first time you can take it is level 9. In other words, the same time as everybody else? Or is there some LG legal build that has the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells and has +4 BAB at 6th level? (And no, Ftr2/Sor4 with Earth Spell doesn't count :P)
Mithreinmaethor 02-15-07, 07:56 PM	Question about the bonus damage from the Unseen Seer. What if you dont have sneak attack before taking this class ? Do you get the +1d6 ?
Sieylianna 02-15-07, 09:20 PM	Question about the bonus damage from the Unseen Seer. What if you dont have sneak attack before taking this class ? Do you get the +1d6 ? Not in my opinion, although the wording isn't as clear as it could have been. Ed
Alpha_Nerd 02-16-07, 11:01 AM	No you do not. It says it advances your damage nice, not grant you them, much like the Master of Radiance with Turn Undead. It doesn't give you the ability, only improves it if you have it. If you still think it should give you 1d6 sneak attack, then it also gives you 1d6 skirmish, and 1d6 sudden strike aswell, which we all know isn't how it is suppose to.
Alpha_Nerd 02-16-07, 11:58 AM	The beguiler's advanced learning can only pick spells from the Sor/Wiz list. Swift invisibility isn't on that list. (Assassins, bards, and duskblades get it.) Hmm, probably Distract Assailant then. Try to get them flatfooted before a huge charge to avoid AoOs.
Evanta 02-22-07, 12:46 AM	Anyone considered dipping 2 levels of Fortune's Friend and take luck feats for a more skill-focused beguiler? Beguiler Lvl 1 : Spell Focus (Enchantment) Lvl 3 : Lucky Start Lvl 6 : Unbelieveable Luck (3 rerolls) Fortune's Friend Lvl 2 : Magical Fortune (5 luck re-rolls total) Beguiler Lvl 7 : Make your own Luck (6 luck re-rolls) Lvl 10: Metamagic Focus etc. I believe Magic Fortune and Lucky Start would be better than Spell Penetration and Improved Initiative. Good point for Fortune's Friend is that you have 6+INT skill points and similar skill list, so you can keep maxing those skills.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-22-07, 03:31 AM	Well, here's my rediculous DC take on a beguiler... Race:Grey Elf Alignment: STR-11 (3)-2 DEX-14 (6)+2 CON-14 (6)-2 INT-17 (13)+2 WIS-8 (0) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Beguiler)Toughness Lv2(Beguiler) Lv3(Beguiler)Arcane Toughness Lv4(Beguiler)+1 INT Lv5(Beguiler) Lv6(Beguiler)Arcane Consumption Lv7(Beguiler) Lv8(Beguiler)+1 INT Lv9(Fatespinner)Spell Focus (Enchantment) Lv10(Fatespinner) Lv11(Fatespinner) Lv12(Fatespinner)Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), +1 INT Lv13(Beguiler) Lv14(Beguiler) Lv15(Beguiler)Feat
RanielK 02-24-07, 03:53 PM	Of course, Beguiler also makes for a great build into Arcane Trickster/trapsmage as well. The only questions I have are, should I take one level of Rogue (as below) and the 1 Caster level hit? Should I take a second level of Rogue for evasion but at a cost of one more caster level? Or should I skip Rogue and take 4 levels of Unseen Seer with full caster, but still have one CL hit to all but Divination due to US's 3rd level class feature? Also, I'm not sure where to go feat-wise. Base stats before race Str 12 (4) Dex 14 (6) Con 12 (4) Int 16 (10) Wis 8 (0) Cha 12 (4) only if considering UMD or party's second face 1st Rogue 1 +1d6 Sneak, Trapfinding 2nd Beguiler 1 Armor mage 3rd Beguiler 2 Cloaked cast, surprise cast 4th Beguiler 3 Adv Learn (Mage Hand) 5th Beguiler 4 6th Unseen Seer 1 +2d6 Sneak 7th Unseen Seer 2 Adv Learn (Golem Strike), Silent Spell 8th Arcane Trickster 1 Ranged Legerdemain 1/day 9th Arcane Trickster 2 +3d6 Sneak 10th Arcane Trickster 3 Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day 11th Arcane Trickster 4 +4d6 Sneak 12th Arcane Trickster 5 Ranged Legerdemain 2/day 13th Arcane Trickster 6 +5d6 Sneak 14th Arcane Trickster 7 Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day From here I'm not sure. Maybe Spellwarp Sniper, more Arcane Trickster or back to Beguiler.
Alpha_Nerd 02-24-07, 04:21 PM	Beguiler doesn't really have any good Arcane Trickster spells in my opinion.
Sieylianna 02-24-07, 05:12 PM	Of course, Beguiler also makes for a great build into Arcane Trickster/trapsmage as well. The only questions I have are, should I take one level of Rogue (as below) and the 1 Caster level hit? Should I take a second level of Rogue for evasion but at a cost of one more caster level? My Beguiler PC will have three levels of rogue, because that is where she was prior to Beguiler being allowed. Probably rogue 3/beguiler 2/ unseen seer 2. If I happen to pick up access to dagger spell mage, I may use the retrain option to swap feats to qualify. With 10+ characters, I really don't want to start another one unless I must. And I've been wanting to play a healer for three years while it wasn't allowed in living greyhawk. Ed
jstorrie 02-25-07, 01:03 AM	Spellwarp Sniper may be a better pick than Arcane Trickster, for Rogue/Beguiler.
mowaca 02-28-07, 12:06 AM	We have Beguiler in my home game and here are some thoughts: - There's a sizable number of monsters who are immune to enchantment, so have a plan B since that's pretty much all you have from level 1 - 5. Most encounters went something like 'Round 1: Enchantment spell fails or makes save, Round 2 to n: long spear, aid another (and with your BAB, fail at that too). This can be really frustrating - be aware of this is you go the SF Enchantment, GSF Enchantment, Spell Penetration route. - I eliminated cloaked casting and surprise casting for a modified version of advanced learning, so I'm curious to hear good strategies using those two core beguiler abilities. Honestly, I don't get it. - UMD might be a good use of your skill points, although I'm not really sure how well it works well in LG, especially from lvl 1-5, where you have no cash.
Timlagor 02-28-07, 12:55 PM	Beguilers are even worse for spellwarp snipers: THERE ARE NO DAMAGE SPELLS! If things are immune to enchantment you hit them with Glitterdust and Illusions. If they have blindsight and are immune to enchantments then you are in real trouble but that's a pretty rare occurence and you can still flank even if you fail to aid. Surprise casting looks like a nice little bonus but I don't see myself putting a Beguiler in melee for it. Putting Rogue into a Beguiler build is just silly (though I can understand it if you're already a Rogue and want a few spells): - Beguilers don't do damage so SnAt is useless - Beguilers already get the skills - Evasion doesn't even come close to being worth two spell levels. I haven't seen UMD in action but I'm assured it's the most powerful skill in the game by people I trust. Clearly it's not hugely useful until ~level 10 when you can actually do it reliably however.