Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 03-06-07, 05:05 PM	I was wondering if anyone has tried it and how well did it work for you? I am choosing either Druid 5/Beastmaster1/Druid9 or Druid 15. More of a battlefield/summoner than a tanker. I'll take Natural Spell anyway just in case. Something like: Race (human?) Str10 Dex10 Con14 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 12 2 2 6 4 10 4 Feats: 1-Spell Focus: Conj (if human: Augment Summon) 3-Skill Focus: Animal Handler 6-Natural Spell 9-Augment Summon if non-human, else Rapid Spell. I'd be giving up wild shape (huge) and a level of spell casting. Is it worth it? Opinions?
Cynric 03-06-07, 08:00 PM	I have one who is level 12 at the moment (druid 11\Bm 1). He seems to do ok. The tiger tends to be the frontliner in the party, so I spend all my time buffing it. First round natures favour and animal growth, cohort hits it with draconic might. Add in haste bard song etc from the rest of the party and things tend to explode. Plus a tiger that power attacks is just fun.:D The only problem I have is that it attracts a lot of attention from the bad guys, hence I have spontaneous healer in my build. It has not died in a few levels, although having said that I am sure it will do so in the next mod I play.:weep:
boogahwoof 03-06-07, 08:50 PM	Well, I play with quite a few of these kinds of animal crazy druids. To gain access to a new tier of animals for 1 level of beastmaster seems to be the way they all went. But, I would heed Cynric's warning. I have seen gms that will take out a big bad animal with some quickness because they know what it can do. And i played a apl 10 table just last week, and 3 rounds into the combat the druid flubbed a will save and his huge, buffed out croc got animal dominated. Lets just say this, thank Kord for my winged boots or it would have been a tpk lol.
Cynric 03-06-07, 09:11 PM	And i played a apl 10 table just last week, and 3 rounds into the combat the druid flubbed a will save and his huge, buffed out croc got animal dominated. Lets just say this, thank Kord for my winged boots or it would have been a tpk lol. I have not had that happen yet, but I have got iron will on the tiger to try and help out, plus tyhe cohort has prot eveil which she regularly casts on the tiger. I am worried about it happening, because with the table I play with (monks and bards) it is gonna hurt.:(
Reska 03-06-07, 10:28 PM	Currently Druid 6/Beastmaster 1. Mmmm...Dire Tortoise (14 HD, 170 HP, 26 AC, Huge Size, Surprise Round Goodness) *cue Homer drool* Even worse is, in 3 levels I can choose the next higher creature...which still isn't better than the Dire Tortoise (now named The Tank).
Rerednaw 03-07-07, 09:25 AM	Currently Druid 6/Beastmaster 1. Mmmm...Dire Tortoise (14 HD, 170 HP, 26 AC, Huge Size, Surprise Round Goodness) *cue Homer drool* Even worse is, in 3 levels I can choose the next higher creature...which still isn't better than the Dire Tortoise (now named The Tank). Uh...Dire Tortoise? Do you have to be from Bright Sands or something (AR access)? Is it environment-restricted? I have seen table variation when I see druids try to bring in a crocodile. "Sorry not aquatic environment", can't bring him in." And of course you give up your ability to wild shape into one. But how much play are you going to get at level 15 anyway versus levels 7-14? :D
Reska 03-07-07, 09:38 AM	Uh...Dire Tortoise? Do you have to be from Bright Sands or something (AR access)? Is it environment-restricted? I have seen table variation when I see druids try to bring in a crocodile. "Sorry not aquatic environment", can't bring him in." And of course you give up your ability to wild shape into one. But how much play are you going to get at level 15 anyway versus levels 7-14? :D First, remember it only has to be an aquatic environment when you first take them (although there are major exceptions...like having a killer whale in the desert...not feasible). The Dire Tortoise has no environment-restricted (as it's a tortoise it's a land animal, not water base like most people think). And yes, you have to be a Bright Sands character to take one...well, specifically, you have to be a Wasteland Druid to get one. And I still haven't fully decided to move toward Arcane Heirophant and make the Tank smart and even more broken than it already is, or stay druid and be able to cast 7th level spells (albeit 1 level later than normal). Right now, I'm edging more toward druid, as the Tank already bends (not necessarily breaks) most combats it is in. But you'd expect that out of a 20' long 8 ton creature....that can be reduced to large for those towns and areas that don't like huge creatures (via a Sizing Collar [AR access]) or Animal Growthed for maximum fear on the DM's face. Of course, I could use at least one favor to increase his con and natural armor by 2/1 (respectively). Edit: Just so you know, I drool over my tank the same way the other druid-players drool over their tigers.
trollbill 03-07-07, 10:20 AM	I was wondering if anyone has tried it and how well did it work for you? I have actually met very few LG Druids that don't have a single level of Beastmaster. It's also very common for cavalry types.
Reska 03-07-07, 10:34 AM	I have actually met very few LG Druids that don't have a single level of Beastmaster. It's also very common for cavalry types. Beastmaster is one of those prestige classes that's very much front-loaded. Even worse, is there's no real reason to go more than one level. The extra beasts you get only use the Beastmaster class and not teh druid/ranger classes to stack. So you end up with a really good animal companion, and one that can be used as pet chow.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-07-07, 11:03 AM	Tigers may be more dangerous when fully buffed with their pounce....but they are pretty much glass cannons...That's ehy I like my Rhino. Better HD, Con, and AC...and still does nice damage on a charge thanks to powerful charge. Overall a much more durable companion. Afterall, what good is an animal companion that dies in the first combat?
Rerednaw 03-07-07, 04:49 PM	Beastmaster is one of those prestige classes that's very much front-loaded. Even worse, is there's no real reason to go more than one level. The extra beasts you get only use the Beastmaster class and not teh druid/ranger classes to stack. So you end up with a really good animal companion, and one that can be used as pet chow. Sorry I don't have my CAdv handy. I thought if you have an existing animal companion, you add +3 to your druid level to determine it's abilities. That does not necessarily mean you gain access to a higher level one do you? Also if you already have one, does this mean you gain two of them? One at your normal level and the other at +3? It is starting to sound too good to pass up.
Gallaway 03-07-07, 05:12 PM	[/SIZE] Sorry I don't have my CAdv handy. I thought if you have an existing animal companion, you add +3 to your druid level to determine it's abilities. That does not necessarily mean you gain access to a higher level one do you? Also if you already have one, does this mean you gain two of them? One at your normal level and the other at +3? It is starting to sound too good to pass up. You get (beastmaster level +3) added to your exisitng EDL from other classes. How this interacts with natural bond appears controversial. The extra animal companions are at a very low level and need qyuite a few BM levels before you qualify.
Fleetfang 03-07-07, 05:13 PM	My druid's dire tortoise is going to be named "Gamera." Just need one more level. ...and an appropriately sized turtle mini. I imagine that DMs go after buffed up animal companions so ruthlessly, and especially the Beastmaster animal companions, because they know that they aren't really hurting your PC. A lot of DMs might softball tactics to avoid a PC death or a TPK. But when it comes to animal companions, everyone knows that they're a renewable resource. Thus, it's a rare DM that I've seen hold back.
awroe 03-07-07, 07:14 PM	And I still haven't fully decided to move toward Arcane Heirophant and make the Tank smart and even more broken than it already is, or stay druid and be able to cast 7th level spells (albeit 1 level later than normal). Right now, I'm edging more toward druid, as the Tank already bends (not necessarily breaks) most combats it is in. But you'd expect that out of a 20' long 8 ton creature....that can be reduced to large for those towns and areas that don't like huge creatures (via a Sizing Collar [AR access]) or Animal Growthed for maximum fear on the DM's face. Possibly a side issue, but I've been concerned that when running a build involving 'The Tank' it wouldn't do anything in the suprise round because it isn't intelligent enough to know there is a threat and the Druid in control hasn't acted - Arcane Hierophant would solve that. Have you encountered this?
Reska 03-07-07, 08:24 PM	[/SIZE] Sorry I don't have my CAdv handy. I thought if you have an existing animal companion, you add +3 to your druid level to determine it's abilities. That does not necessarily mean you gain access to a higher level one do you? Also if you already have one, does this mean you gain two of them? One at your normal level and the other at +3? It is starting to sound too good to pass up. You start getting extra beasts at Beastmaster 4. Here's the catch: They suck. Lets take a Druid 6/Beastmaster 4 character. Effective Druid level of 13 (6 Druid, 7 Beastmaster). They can choose their primary companion from the 13th level list (level -12). As a 4th level Beastmaster, they get an additional beast...but this one only counts as an EDL of 1 (Beastmaster level -3). Druid levels don't count into it. I wish they would, but they don't. You get another beast every 7th and 10th...all based off the Beastmaster levels and not stacked. So, theoretically, a Druid 5/Beastmaster 10 could have 4 creatures with him: 1 Uber companion (EDL 18), 1 slightly better than average (EDL 7), 1 not so average (EDL 4), and one that's brought along to feed the other three (EDL 1).
Reska 03-07-07, 08:25 PM	My druid's dire tortoise is going to be named "Gamera." Just need one more level. ...and an appropriately sized turtle mini. I imagine that DMs go after buffed up animal companions so ruthlessly, and especially the Beastmaster animal companions, because they know that they aren't really hurting your PC. A lot of DMs might softball tactics to avoid a PC death or a TPK. But when it comes to animal companions, everyone knows that they're a renewable resource. Thus, it's a rare DM that I've seen hold back. For the mini - I use a Bulette. It just screams "TANK!"
Reska 03-07-07, 08:27 PM	Possibly a side issue, but I've been concerned that when running a build involving 'The Tank' it wouldn't do anything in the suprise round because it isn't intelligent enough to know there is a threat and the Druid in control hasn't acted - Arcane Hierophant would solve that. Have you encountered this? Well, that would be the case of all animals then...besides, even a 6-ton creature knows that if something steps out in a threatening manner, well then...make it stop threatening (move to intercept). As for how to get around the Arcane Heirophant issue: Headband of Intellect. Tada...animal's now smart enough to follow commands without Handle Animal...AND can understand a language (if it's +4 or better). Though...I need to figure out again if they can wear it or not.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-07-07, 08:40 PM	Well, that would be the case of all animals then...besides, even a 6-ton creature knows that if something steps out in a threatening manner, well then...make it stop threatening (move to intercept). As for how to get around the Arcane Heirophant issue: Headband of Intellect. Tada...animal's now smart enough to follow commands without Handle Animal...AND can understand a language (if it's +4 or better). Though...I need to figure out again if they can wear it or not. UNfortunately, according to the lgcs creatures only have neck, cloak, and barding slots...anything else is up to the DM...
Reska 03-07-07, 08:58 PM	UNfortunately, according to the lgcs creatures only have neck, cloak, and barding slots...anything else is up to the DM... And that's the quote I was missing...darn. Back to square one.
Fleetfang 03-08-07, 01:24 AM	I'm planning on getting an exotic saddle for my big guy and just describe it as a howdah, a la the LotR oliphants. hee hee... A friend of mine suggested something wicked tonight. Get a wizard ally with a raven familiar fly his little buddy out over the bad guys. Then he casts benign transposition between the raven and the tortoise... So that's 1d6 damage dealt from a falling object for every 200 pounds of the object. Add 1d6 per 10 feet fallen after the first 10 feet. The dire tortoise is about 12,000 pounds. If the raven is only 20 feet up, that's a 61d6 atom bomb, for an average of 213.5 points of damage. Ladies and gentlemen, all hail the Benign Tortoisition/"T-Bomb" Combo!
Gallaway 03-08-07, 01:32 AM	I'm planning on getting an exotic saddle for my big guy and just describe it as a howdah, a la the LotR oliphants. hee hee... A friend of mine suggested something wicked tonight. Get a wizard ally with a raven familiar fly his little buddy out over the bad guys. Then he casts benign transposition between the raven and the tortoise... So that's 1d6 damage dealt from a falling object for every 200 pounds of the object. Add 1d6 per 10 feet fallen after the first 10 feet. The dire tortoise is about 12,000 pounds. If the raven is only 20 feet up, that's a 61d6 atom bomb, for an average of 213.5 points of damage. Ladies and gentlemen, all hail the Benign Tortoisition/"T-Bomb" Combo! Well benign doesnt have the annoying "touching ground" restriction of Baleful. Plus any object the tortoise is holding is transposed as well. But not a rider. However surely you do not get to automatically damage objects you fall in the same square as ? There must be rules for that.
Evanta 03-08-07, 01:43 AM	Well benign doesnt have the annoying "touching ground" restriction of Baleful. Plus any object the tortoise is holding is transposed as well. But not a rider. However surely you do not get to automatically damage objects you fall in the same square as ? There must be rules for that. Read Heroes of Battle for Aerial Bombardment rules. Anyway damage is capped at 20d6.
awroe 03-08-07, 07:45 AM	Well, that would be the case of all animals then...besides, even a 6-ton creature knows that if something steps out in a threatening manner, well then...make it stop threatening (move to intercept). My understanding is that Animal Companions do not attack every creature they meet - the druid has to use a free action to command them. If you don't give your companion a command it keeps doing its default command (usually 'Defend'), which means in the suprise round it will defend you unless you are attacked. Without an action on the druid's part, I can't see how you can get it to do anything else. UMD and a scroll of Fox's Cunning? You could probably explain it with the tortoise being *so* fast that it takes the druid's command from the first full round but acts on it before anyone at all?
Fleetfang 03-08-07, 10:17 AM	Read Heroes of Battle for Aerial Bombardment rules. Anyway damage is capped at 20d6. Hmm... As I read the rule, it caps falling damage from momentum and distance at 20d6. At least the way I'm reading it, it doesn't look like the 20d6 would apply to the weight of the object. Of course I could be wrong. Nevertheless, even 20d6 for a benign transposition is nothing to sneeze at. It's a moot point as the tactic is still sound. Two other turtle questions: Which is a better use of the neck slot: the sizing collar or an amulet of health? and How much would mithril breastplate barding cost for a huge creature?
awroe 03-08-07, 01:28 PM	Two other turtle questions: Which is a better use of the neck slot: the sizing collar or an amulet of health? Both? Use the sizing collar when you need to use its ability, and the heath one at all other times. How much would mithril breastplate barding cost for a huge creature? A lot? 33600 gp, I think. (Mithril breastplate 4200 x 8 Huge, nonhumanoid)
Ancillary 03-08-07, 06:56 PM	Wasteland Druids make poor heirophants since they do not get the woodland stride pre-req. Dire Tortises are awesome.
Reska 03-08-07, 09:10 PM	A lot? 33600 gp, I think. (Mithril breastplate 4200 x 8 Huge, nonhumanoid) Not to mention, you need to get access to it.
Reska 03-08-07, 09:11 PM	Wasteland Druids make poor heirophants since they do not get the woodland stride pre-req. Dire Tortises are awesome. Umm...there is no woodland stride pre-req. It's Trackless Step (which Wasteland Druids do get). And yes...Dire Tortoises are the awesome...but, I might have found one better (at 13th level): Dire Elephant.
Rerednaw 03-08-07, 11:36 PM	Hmm... As I read the rule, it caps falling damage from momentum and distance at 20d6. At least the way I'm reading it, it doesn't look like the 20d6 would apply to the weight of the object. Of course I could be wrong. Nevertheless, even 20d6 for a benign transposition is nothing to sneeze at. It's a moot point as the tactic is still sound. Uh, unless your druid doesn't like his pet very much, using him as a squishy bomb...I dunno. It's also reflex 15 to negate on top of having to make an attack roll and the damage is capped at 20d6. Certainly in line (or even below) as bad as other damage tweaks. Of course one thing to consider is if that your pet is being used as a missile weapon...doesn't that mean by the RAW he's automatically destroyed if he hits? :D
Fleetfang 03-09-07, 09:24 AM	Rerednaw, 1. I don't think the damage based on weight is dealt to the falling object. When was the last time a DM asked you how much you weighed when he was calculating falling damage? The tortoise itself would only take the 1d6 falling damage for falling 10 feet over 10 feet. The damage cap of 20d6 is debatable. But that debate should not happen on this thread. 2. Thanks for posting the HoB rules (that's where you got that, right?). 3. You are quite possibly right on this point. ;)
Rerednaw 03-09-07, 09:40 AM	Rerednaw, 1. I don't think the damage based on weight is dealt to the falling object. When was the last time a DM asked you how much you weighed when he was calculating falling damage? The tortoise itself would only take the 1d6 falling damage for falling 10 feet over 10 feet. The damage cap of 20d6 is debatable. But that debate should not happen on this thread. 2. Thanks for posting the HoB rules (that's where you got that, right?). 3. You are quite possibly right on this point. ;) A falling object doesn't take damage based upon it's mass, but what it hits does...huh didn't think of it that way. Actually I was basing my hypothesis on: 1) Falling object treated as improvised ranged weapon. 2) The turtle is technically being 'thrown.' 3) Ranged weapon ammo "...ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost." Never mind...I just realized I was mixing up a thrown weapon with projectile weapon ammunition.