Open/Closed question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Open/Closed question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
happosaai
05-01-07, 05:54 PM I was curious, is a particular base class, prestige class, feat or spell is not listed as either being Open or Closed, would a player be able to use that class/PrC/Feat/Spell?

I'm new to RPGA, just starting my first characters and was just curious about that.
bitznarf
05-01-07, 06:02 PM I was curious, is a particular base class, prestige class, feat or spell is not listed as either being Open or Closed, would a player be able to use that class/PrC/Feat/Spell?

I'm new to RPGA, just starting my first characters and was just curious about that.
Anything that is neither open nor closed can generally be referred to as 'NONC' as an unofficial term. You can get ARs that will 'open' a 'NONC' item/class/PrC/spell/feat/etc for your character. For example you may find something like eyes of the eagle one mod and be able to purchase them, making that option open to your character for the duration of your access (Adventure, Core Regional Meta-regional, Any). Or you could find a mentor of sorts who would be willing to train you in the ways of the Mindbender, opening that PrC for your PC.
kenobi65
05-01-07, 06:03 PM If it's not on either list, you can only use it with "campaign documentation".

The most common form of that is "access" that's given on an Adventure Record, but metaorganizations and special missions may also be ways to gain access to some NONC* items.

* - "Neither Open Nor Closed" -- the informal term for items that aren't on either the Open nor Closed lists.
kenobi65
05-01-07, 06:06 PM Or you could find a mentor of sorts who would be willing to train you in the ways of the Mindbender, opening that PrC for your PC.

Just to clarify -- this would be in the form of something like an NPC encountered in a module who "gives" you access to that PrC. If your PC encounters another PC who's gotten access to a NONC item (e.g., a PC Mindbender), he can't give you access.
bitznarf
05-01-07, 06:07 PM Just to clarify -- this would be in the form of something like an NPC encountered in a module who "gives" you access to that PrC. If your PC encounters another PC who's gotten access to a NONC item (e.g., a PC Mindbender), he can't give you access.
Right. That is what I meant, I just forgot to add the 'must be on an AR' note. And I consider meta-org records (MRs) to just be another for of AR that act a bit different.
happosaai
05-01-07, 07:03 PM Ahh ok great that clears up some stuff :)

I was mainly curious since the Duskblade base class was not listed as either Open or Closed :-)
That makes the whole character planning for "NONC" classes/feats hard huh :-)
Suvarov454
05-01-07, 07:52 PM Ahh ok great that clears up some stuff :)

I was mainly curious since the Duskblade base class was not listed as either Open or Closed :-)
That makes the whole character planning for "NONC" classes/feats hard huh :-)

That depends. Most regions publicly post the set of Meta Organizations that are available, including the items, feats, and classes they give access to. Which region do you live in? If yours includes a Meta Org with Duskblade access, it is simple to plan how to qualify for that access, and then start to take levels in your desired class.
Howie23
05-01-07, 08:28 PM That makes the whole character planning for "NONC" classes/feats hard huh :-)

If you choose to plan for resources that you cannot control access to, then yes, you may find yourself disappointed or frustrated.

David
happosaai
05-01-07, 08:39 PM Very true Howie, which is why I asked about the things not listed in the Open or Closed sections of the rules booklet I got *grin*

I'm in Metaregion 1 in the Gran March subregion. Going to my first game this upcoming Thursday too!
Howie23
05-01-07, 08:47 PM Very true Howie, which is why I asked about the things not listed in the Open or Closed sections of the rules booklet I got

Yeah, basically you have three choices under the current rules:

1) Don't plan for non-open resources.

2) Plan in a way that could use them if you got them, but doesn't require them.

3) Plan in a way that requires them, and then complain about how the system doesn't meet your needs. :)

David
happosaai
05-01-07, 09:04 PM Hmm, I'm in favor of option 3!! :D
Howie23
05-01-07, 09:07 PM Hmm, I'm in favor of option 3!! :D

Oh, sure....be a lemming... ;)
King Kashue
05-01-07, 11:18 PM Criticisms of the system aside (i.e., whether you like it or not is irrelevant to this question), how is it that people continually miss the very first line of the gorram section?

"The rules options in this document are divided into two types of access. If a rules option is not included in this document, you must have campaign documentation Opening it for your PC." (LGCS p. 26).

Not to single you out Happo, since plenty of people are missing this, but seriously, it's the first line...To get to the lists of open and closed items you need to go past it. Does no one actually read the document before asking questions?
Howie23
05-01-07, 11:33 PM Criticisms of the system aside (i.e., whether you like it or not is irrelevant to this question), how is it that people continually miss the very first line of the gorram section?

Maybe it is a good indication that it needs to be presented differently. Kinda a meta-group version of "Insanity is the process of doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results."

David
King Kashue
05-02-07, 12:14 AM Maybe it is a good indication that it needs to be presented differently. Kinda a meta-group version of "Insanity is the process of doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results."

David

They should make it 48 point type...:D

A whole page with nothing but the line

"If a rules option is not included in this document, you must have campaign documentation Opening it for your PC"
Lupo
05-02-07, 01:07 AM They should make it 48 point type...:D

A whole page with nothing but the line

"If a rules option is not included in this document, you must have campaign documentation Opening it for your PC"

but, but, but, but, they did everything to reduce and condense the the LGCS - and did a marvelous job with it - this year :D

ciao

martin m.
pedr
05-02-07, 06:54 AM I'm sure there are people who'd studied the psychology of the thing... the fact that it's the first line, right at the top of the page, when the page itself looks like it's presenting everything in lists might suggest that the blurby, wordy bit at the top isn't important and all you really need to do is read the lists.

This is clearly an incorrect assumption, but I think when people are scanning a document, rather than reading it with the experience of years of interpreting RPGA rules, the eye can be quite likely to skip over the few short bits of prose and look to the 'meaty' lists of things.

No solution, I'm afraid, but that might be the problem which has to be overcome. Perhaps by adding the text somewhere else in the document as well?
happosaai
05-02-07, 12:52 PM oops, sorry I must have missed or misunderstood that line before the lists of books and various class/feat/spell/PrC's...
King Kashue
05-02-07, 01:28 PM oops, sorry I must have missed or misunderstood that line before the lists of books and various class/feat/spell/PrC's...

No worries...Like I said, you're definitely not the only one to have missed it :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
happosaai 05-01-07, 05:54 PM	I was curious, is a particular base class, prestige class, feat or spell is not listed as either being Open or Closed, would a player be able to use that class/PrC/Feat/Spell? I'm new to RPGA, just starting my first characters and was just curious about that.
bitznarf 05-01-07, 06:02 PM	I was curious, is a particular base class, prestige class, feat or spell is not listed as either being Open or Closed, would a player be able to use that class/PrC/Feat/Spell? I'm new to RPGA, just starting my first characters and was just curious about that. Anything that is neither open nor closed can generally be referred to as 'NONC' as an unofficial term. You can get ARs that will 'open' a 'NONC' item/class/PrC/spell/feat/etc for your character. For example you may find something like eyes of the eagle one mod and be able to purchase them, making that option open to your character for the duration of your access (Adventure, Core Regional Meta-regional, Any). Or you could find a mentor of sorts who would be willing to train you in the ways of the Mindbender, opening that PrC for your PC.
kenobi65 05-01-07, 06:03 PM	If it's not on either list, you can only use it with "campaign documentation". The most common form of that is "access" that's given on an Adventure Record, but metaorganizations and special missions may also be ways to gain access to some NONC* items. * - "Neither Open Nor Closed" -- the informal term for items that aren't on either the Open nor Closed lists.
kenobi65 05-01-07, 06:06 PM	Or you could find a mentor of sorts who would be willing to train you in the ways of the Mindbender, opening that PrC for your PC. Just to clarify -- this would be in the form of something like an NPC encountered in a module who "gives" you access to that PrC. If your PC encounters another PC who's gotten access to a NONC item (e.g., a PC Mindbender), he can't give you access.
bitznarf 05-01-07, 06:07 PM	Just to clarify -- this would be in the form of something like an NPC encountered in a module who "gives" you access to that PrC. If your PC encounters another PC who's gotten access to a NONC item (e.g., a PC Mindbender), he can't give you access. Right. That is what I meant, I just forgot to add the 'must be on an AR' note. And I consider meta-org records (MRs) to just be another for of AR that act a bit different.
happosaai 05-01-07, 07:03 PM	Ahh ok great that clears up some stuff :) I was mainly curious since the Duskblade base class was not listed as either Open or Closed :-) That makes the whole character planning for "NONC" classes/feats hard huh :-)
Suvarov454 05-01-07, 07:52 PM	Ahh ok great that clears up some stuff :) I was mainly curious since the Duskblade base class was not listed as either Open or Closed :-) That makes the whole character planning for "NONC" classes/feats hard huh :-) That depends. Most regions publicly post the set of Meta Organizations that are available, including the items, feats, and classes they give access to. Which region do you live in? If yours includes a Meta Org with Duskblade access, it is simple to plan how to qualify for that access, and then start to take levels in your desired class.
Howie23 05-01-07, 08:28 PM	That makes the whole character planning for "NONC" classes/feats hard huh :-) If you choose to plan for resources that you cannot control access to, then yes, you may find yourself disappointed or frustrated. David
happosaai 05-01-07, 08:39 PM	Very true Howie, which is why I asked about the things not listed in the Open or Closed sections of the rules booklet I got grin I'm in Metaregion 1 in the Gran March subregion. Going to my first game this upcoming Thursday too!
Howie23 05-01-07, 08:47 PM	Very true Howie, which is why I asked about the things not listed in the Open or Closed sections of the rules booklet I got Yeah, basically you have three choices under the current rules: 1) Don't plan for non-open resources. 2) Plan in a way that could use them if you got them, but doesn't require them. 3) Plan in a way that requires them, and then complain about how the system doesn't meet your needs. :) David
happosaai 05-01-07, 09:04 PM	Hmm, I'm in favor of option 3!! :D
Howie23 05-01-07, 09:07 PM	Hmm, I'm in favor of option 3!! :D Oh, sure....be a lemming... ;)
King Kashue 05-01-07, 11:18 PM	Criticisms of the system aside (i.e., whether you like it or not is irrelevant to this question), how is it that people continually miss the very first line of the gorram section? "The rules options in this document are divided into two types of access. If a rules option is not included in this document, you must have campaign documentation Opening it for your PC." (LGCS p. 26). Not to single you out Happo, since plenty of people are missing this, but seriously, it's the first line...To get to the lists of open and closed items you need to go past it. Does no one actually read the document before asking questions?
Howie23 05-01-07, 11:33 PM	Criticisms of the system aside (i.e., whether you like it or not is irrelevant to this question), how is it that people continually miss the very first line of the gorram section? Maybe it is a good indication that it needs to be presented differently. Kinda a meta-group version of "Insanity is the process of doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results." David
King Kashue 05-02-07, 12:14 AM	Maybe it is a good indication that it needs to be presented differently. Kinda a meta-group version of "Insanity is the process of doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results." David They should make it 48 point type...:D A whole page with nothing but the line "If a rules option is not included in this document, you must have campaign documentation Opening it for your PC"
Lupo 05-02-07, 01:07 AM	They should make it 48 point type...:D A whole page with nothing but the line "If a rules option is not included in this document, you must have campaign documentation Opening it for your PC" but, but, but, but, they did everything to reduce and condense the the LGCS - and did a marvelous job with it - this year :D ciao martin m.
pedr 05-02-07, 06:54 AM	I'm sure there are people who'd studied the psychology of the thing... the fact that it's the first line, right at the top of the page, when the page itself looks like it's presenting everything in lists might suggest that the blurby, wordy bit at the top isn't important and all you really need to do is read the lists. This is clearly an incorrect assumption, but I think when people are scanning a document, rather than reading it with the experience of years of interpreting RPGA rules, the eye can be quite likely to skip over the few short bits of prose and look to the 'meaty' lists of things. No solution, I'm afraid, but that might be the problem which has to be overcome. Perhaps by adding the text somewhere else in the document as well?
happosaai 05-02-07, 12:52 PM	oops, sorry I must have missed or misunderstood that line before the lists of books and various class/feat/spell/PrC's...
King Kashue 05-02-07, 01:28 PM	oops, sorry I must have missed or misunderstood that line before the lists of books and various class/feat/spell/PrC's... No worries...Like I said, you're definitely not the only one to have missed it :D