Optimizing a Monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Optimizing a Monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JCP
10-22-06, 01:20 AM I'm new to RPGA and have been wanting to play a monk, as I have never played one before. My other character is a wizard (sounds like a bumper sticker I know), and while playing the wizard I was warned by more experienced players that monks die often, are rarely as useful as other characters that fill one of the core roles (tank, arcane caster, divine/healer, rogue/trap and skill monkey)

Does anyone here have any ideas on an optimized monk that wouldn't drag down a table or be a burden on a party? I want to fill a role but I really love the flavor and idea of monks. Though I admit I'm not super big on the multiple deaths deal.

I play in the Bandit Kingdoms where undead are fairly common, treachery is almost a guarantee, the lines of good and evil are blurred, and Iuz is always watching....

Anyway, my first thought at a build is below. Is it survivable? Does it contribute enough to a party? Is there a better build out there?

 Level 1: Fighter 1: Dodge, combat expertise, mobility
 Level 2: Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Improved Grapple
 Level 3: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes, Evasion, Ascetic Hunter
 Level 4: Ranger 1: Favored Enemy Undead, Track, Wild Empathy
 Level 5: Ranger 2: TWF
 Level 6: Monk 3: Still Mind, Karmic Strike
 Level 7: Monk 4: Ki strike (magic), slow fall
 Level 8: Monk 5: Purity Body
 Level 9: Monk 6: Improved Trip, Defensive Throw
 Level 10: Ranger 3: Endurance
 Level 11: Ranger 4: Animal companion
 Level 12: Ranger 5: Favored Enemy: Spring Attack
 Level 13: Ranger 6: ITWF
 Level 14: Ranger 7: Woodland Stride
 Level 15: Ranger 8: Swift Tracker; Dual Strike

My thought is I've got increasing monk damage, a good base attack bonus, good saves, I can hit many times. If my enemy hits me I get Attacks of Opportunity with Karmic Strike, if they miss me I get to trip them with defensive throw, I can eventually spring attack, and finally I can hit twice while triggering those AoOs. I could swap out Robilar's gambit for Karmic Strike I guess and get more AoOs....Trip could slow down enemies and maybe mess up spellcasters?
Iswald
10-22-06, 02:24 AM  Level 1: Fighter 1: Dodge, combat expertise, mobility
 Level 2: Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Improved Grapple
 Level 3: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes, Evasion, Ascetic Hunter
 Level 4: Ranger 1: Favored Enemy Undead, Track, Wild Empathy
 Level 5: Ranger 2: TWF
 Level 6: Monk 3: Still Mind, Karmic Strike
 Level 7: Monk 4: Ki strike (magic), slow fall
 Level 8: Monk 5: Purity Body
 Level 9: Monk 6: Improved Trip, Defensive Throw
 Level 10: Ranger 3: Endurance
 Level 11: Ranger 4: Animal companion
 Level 12: Ranger 5: Favored Enemy: Spring Attack
 Level 13: Ranger 6: ITWF
 Level 14: Ranger 7: Woodland Stride
 Level 15: Ranger 8: Swift Tracker; Dual Strike

My thought is I've got increasing monk damage, a good base attack bonus, good saves, I can hit many times. If my enemy hits me I get Attacks of Opportunity with Karmic Strike, if they miss me I get to trip them with defensive throw, I can eventually spring attack, and finally I can hit twice while triggering those AoOs. I could swap out Robilar's gambit for Karmic Strike I guess and get more AoOs....Trip could slow down enemies and maybe mess up spellcasters?

A few comments. You need to take ranger at third level to qualify for ascetic hunter, since you need a favored enemy. Robilar's Gambit is at least limited at this point, you may or may not be able to use it in the future depending upon whether or not you gain access. Karmic strike is a better option at this point.

Spring attack has its use, but it doesn't seem to work quite as well in LG as in a home campaign. You could change it to elusive target instead.

What kind of stats do you have in mind? You could have a couple of spells and some other bonuses fighting with no armor, but I'm not sure your character can do that. If you have int, then your wisdom or strength is probably a bit low. If you have a good wisdom, you might be better off with stunning fist than improved grapple.

Which skills are you primarily interested in maxing? Hide, move silently, spot and listen?

Your build focuses on unarmed damage? If you're going to use a weapon, you could just take fighter, two levels of ranger, your six levels of monk and then go back into ranger. You have an xp penalty either way, but if you aren't fighting unarmed, you save a feat.
clik_ml
10-22-06, 06:49 PM You don't have stats posted.

One of the more important aspects of monks is how to compensate for the fact that they need lots of high stats to be effective. With no armor you have a crummy AC unless your Dex and Wis are high. With d8 hit dice you have crummy HP (for a melee contributor) unless your Con is high. With 3/4 base attack progression your attack/damage is pathetic unless you have a high strength.

Race is also important since that directly affects stats, and it looks like you're opting for human here (due to 3 feats as a first level fighter).

If you intend to wear some armor and forgoe flurry and wisdom to AC (at least until higher levels when you can afford to *buy* higher stats and bracers), then you can save on some stat allocation and get a reasonable strength and constitution.

You have combat expertise listed as a first level feat, so that means you intend to have at least 13 intelligence, and dodge which means at least 13 dex. That's 10 build points gone, leaving 18 to be spread amongst Str,Con and Wis.

If you planned on ignoring wisdom entirely then you could get by with a 16 str and 15 con mayhaps.

Unfortunately I see that you listed flurry of blows, as though it were an asset, and that implies you intend to not wear armor. That is going to make your life difficult, and short.

If you don't wear armor, then you could put dex and wis to 14 each to give you a horrendous AC of 14 (15 with dodge). You are going to get hit by every attack aimed at you pretty much. You could throw on your combat expertise for -5 to hit to get it up to a barely mediocre AC by level 6 or so... but you're going to have a really hard time contributing then since you simply do not have the stats for a good strength and constitution in that case, and the -5 to attack on top of it all means your contribution to combats will be negligible.

So definitely consider your stats and especially whether you intend to wear armor.

If you want to take Ascetic Hunter at level 3, just swap your first ranger and fighter levels. You net a lot more skill points for the exchange, and lose just 1 HP out of that deal. It's not like you need mobility at level 1 anyway... or ever actually (unless as a pre-req for something like Elusive Target as suggested).

So in addition to my diatribe on armor use and stat allocation, I am in strong agreement with Iswald on pretty much all that he stated.

Tactical suggestions, since you have martial weapon proficiencies be sure to use them. Get a strength longbow, get a reach weapon polearm, heck maybe even get armor spikes.
Nutation
10-23-06, 03:26 PM With all the goodies that higher levels of monk and ranger give you, is the one level of fighter worth it for the feat (+XP penalty)? I would start with ranger, take two levels of monk, and then intermix the two classes as desired.

You don't have Stunning Fist. Therefore, you need to flurry or twf to do significant hurt (or combine them, which means you won't hit). I don't think Spring Attack and a single blow (trip attack?) or even Dual Strike at 15th will be effective enough.

Also, tumble and high movement speed obviate mobility. I would drop Mobility, Spring Attack, Dual Strike, and work in WF: fist and Power Attack. Whether you keep Dodge is up to you.
UMiskatonic
10-26-06, 02:39 PM I think the advice you've recieved is solid, to a point. Monks are challenging to play. The usual mistake is that people with monk characters think that they are fighters. This leads to the multiple deaths/uselessness that you have mentioned.

Unlike a fighter, who has a lot of feats that provide options, monks are largely passive and largely defensive. As a monk, you have a good touch AC, good saves, poison immunity, evasion, and possibly arrow deflection. Unfortunately, you don't control any of those abilities. Your opponents determine whether those defenses come into play or not.

Monks -do- have a wide variety of options when it comes to fighting tactically. You could grapple, trip, disarm, stunning fist, etc. THIS IS ONLY COOL IF YOU USE IT. As a monk, you need to assess every opponent, and decide what the right response is. It will change. You are strongest against evil wizards, and weakest against oozes and ghosts.

Personally, I would build a monk to be a tactical fighter, and probably take two fighter levels if you want to be better still at tripping, taking AOs, using reach weapons, etc.

I think your priority should be to decide what you actually hope to accomplish. We can help you build a character if we know what you want.

Spiked chain trip machine?
Monk/Rogue unarmed scout?
Brawler with light armor and big strength?
Grapple master?
Nimble spring attack + pain touch combo?
_m_
10-26-06, 09:25 PM ? Level 12: Ranger 5: Favored Enemy: Spring Attack

sorry, that made me laugh when i skimmed over it... your favoured enemy is spring attack... TAKE THAT, you evil feat.

sorry :D

as for grapple master, (its funnier if you call it a grapple monkey...) take a quick look at a reapin mauler. the sleephold 3turnkill combo could come in handy.
Lomiat
10-26-06, 10:59 PM Grappling, like Tripping, is a trick that works best at lower levels and wears away as monsters get bigger and bigger.

I've become a fan of Stunning Fist (and related feats) over Improved Grapple (not to say you can't have both) as I've seen more monks and at higher levels.

The monk I've adventured with the most is Bbn1/Mnk11, and he's a good character, but he needs the party's buffs to be really effective. However, once he's an Annis Hag with Greater Mage Armor and +5 fists, etc., he's pretty effective. He played dodge ball with a beholder for several rounds in one mod, and the beholder just aimed at ... pretty much everything else. Plus, the 70+ feet of movement are pretty cool, too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JCP 10-22-06, 01:20 AM	I'm new to RPGA and have been wanting to play a monk, as I have never played one before. My other character is a wizard (sounds like a bumper sticker I know), and while playing the wizard I was warned by more experienced players that monks die often, are rarely as useful as other characters that fill one of the core roles (tank, arcane caster, divine/healer, rogue/trap and skill monkey) Does anyone here have any ideas on an optimized monk that wouldn't drag down a table or be a burden on a party? I want to fill a role but I really love the flavor and idea of monks. Though I admit I'm not super big on the multiple deaths deal. I play in the Bandit Kingdoms where undead are fairly common, treachery is almost a guarantee, the lines of good and evil are blurred, and Iuz is always watching.... Anyway, my first thought at a build is below. Is it survivable? Does it contribute enough to a party? Is there a better build out there?  Level 1: Fighter 1: Dodge, combat expertise, mobility  Level 2: Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Improved Grapple  Level 3: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes, Evasion, Ascetic Hunter  Level 4: Ranger 1: Favored Enemy Undead, Track, Wild Empathy  Level 5: Ranger 2: TWF  Level 6: Monk 3: Still Mind, Karmic Strike  Level 7: Monk 4: Ki strike (magic), slow fall  Level 8: Monk 5: Purity Body  Level 9: Monk 6: Improved Trip, Defensive Throw  Level 10: Ranger 3: Endurance  Level 11: Ranger 4: Animal companion  Level 12: Ranger 5: Favored Enemy: Spring Attack  Level 13: Ranger 6: ITWF  Level 14: Ranger 7: Woodland Stride  Level 15: Ranger 8: Swift Tracker; Dual Strike My thought is I've got increasing monk damage, a good base attack bonus, good saves, I can hit many times. If my enemy hits me I get Attacks of Opportunity with Karmic Strike, if they miss me I get to trip them with defensive throw, I can eventually spring attack, and finally I can hit twice while triggering those AoOs. I could swap out Robilar's gambit for Karmic Strike I guess and get more AoOs....Trip could slow down enemies and maybe mess up spellcasters?
Iswald 10-22-06, 02:24 AM	 Level 1: Fighter 1: Dodge, combat expertise, mobility  Level 2: Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Improved Grapple  Level 3: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes, Evasion, Ascetic Hunter  Level 4: Ranger 1: Favored Enemy Undead, Track, Wild Empathy  Level 5: Ranger 2: TWF  Level 6: Monk 3: Still Mind, Karmic Strike  Level 7: Monk 4: Ki strike (magic), slow fall  Level 8: Monk 5: Purity Body  Level 9: Monk 6: Improved Trip, Defensive Throw  Level 10: Ranger 3: Endurance  Level 11: Ranger 4: Animal companion  Level 12: Ranger 5: Favored Enemy: Spring Attack  Level 13: Ranger 6: ITWF  Level 14: Ranger 7: Woodland Stride  Level 15: Ranger 8: Swift Tracker; Dual Strike My thought is I've got increasing monk damage, a good base attack bonus, good saves, I can hit many times. If my enemy hits me I get Attacks of Opportunity with Karmic Strike, if they miss me I get to trip them with defensive throw, I can eventually spring attack, and finally I can hit twice while triggering those AoOs. I could swap out Robilar's gambit for Karmic Strike I guess and get more AoOs....Trip could slow down enemies and maybe mess up spellcasters? A few comments. You need to take ranger at third level to qualify for ascetic hunter, since you need a favored enemy. Robilar's Gambit is at least limited at this point, you may or may not be able to use it in the future depending upon whether or not you gain access. Karmic strike is a better option at this point. Spring attack has its use, but it doesn't seem to work quite as well in LG as in a home campaign. You could change it to elusive target instead. What kind of stats do you have in mind? You could have a couple of spells and some other bonuses fighting with no armor, but I'm not sure your character can do that. If you have int, then your wisdom or strength is probably a bit low. If you have a good wisdom, you might be better off with stunning fist than improved grapple. Which skills are you primarily interested in maxing? Hide, move silently, spot and listen? Your build focuses on unarmed damage? If you're going to use a weapon, you could just take fighter, two levels of ranger, your six levels of monk and then go back into ranger. You have an xp penalty either way, but if you aren't fighting unarmed, you save a feat.
clik_ml 10-22-06, 06:49 PM	You don't have stats posted. One of the more important aspects of monks is how to compensate for the fact that they need lots of high stats to be effective. With no armor you have a crummy AC unless your Dex and Wis are high. With d8 hit dice you have crummy HP (for a melee contributor) unless your Con is high. With 3/4 base attack progression your attack/damage is pathetic unless you have a high strength. Race is also important since that directly affects stats, and it looks like you're opting for human here (due to 3 feats as a first level fighter). If you intend to wear some armor and forgoe flurry and wisdom to AC (at least until higher levels when you can afford to buy higher stats and bracers), then you can save on some stat allocation and get a reasonable strength and constitution. You have combat expertise listed as a first level feat, so that means you intend to have at least 13 intelligence, and dodge which means at least 13 dex. That's 10 build points gone, leaving 18 to be spread amongst Str,Con and Wis. If you planned on ignoring wisdom entirely then you could get by with a 16 str and 15 con mayhaps. Unfortunately I see that you listed flurry of blows, as though it were an asset, and that implies you intend to not wear armor. That is going to make your life difficult, and short. If you don't wear armor, then you could put dex and wis to 14 each to give you a horrendous AC of 14 (15 with dodge). You are going to get hit by every attack aimed at you pretty much. You could throw on your combat expertise for -5 to hit to get it up to a barely mediocre AC by level 6 or so... but you're going to have a really hard time contributing then since you simply do not have the stats for a good strength and constitution in that case, and the -5 to attack on top of it all means your contribution to combats will be negligible. So definitely consider your stats and especially whether you intend to wear armor. If you want to take Ascetic Hunter at level 3, just swap your first ranger and fighter levels. You net a lot more skill points for the exchange, and lose just 1 HP out of that deal. It's not like you need mobility at level 1 anyway... or ever actually (unless as a pre-req for something like Elusive Target as suggested). So in addition to my diatribe on armor use and stat allocation, I am in strong agreement with Iswald on pretty much all that he stated. Tactical suggestions, since you have martial weapon proficiencies be sure to use them. Get a strength longbow, get a reach weapon polearm, heck maybe even get armor spikes.
Nutation 10-23-06, 03:26 PM	With all the goodies that higher levels of monk and ranger give you, is the one level of fighter worth it for the feat (+XP penalty)? I would start with ranger, take two levels of monk, and then intermix the two classes as desired. You don't have Stunning Fist. Therefore, you need to flurry or twf to do significant hurt (or combine them, which means you won't hit). I don't think Spring Attack and a single blow (trip attack?) or even Dual Strike at 15th will be effective enough. Also, tumble and high movement speed obviate mobility. I would drop Mobility, Spring Attack, Dual Strike, and work in WF: fist and Power Attack. Whether you keep Dodge is up to you.
UMiskatonic 10-26-06, 02:39 PM	I think the advice you've recieved is solid, to a point. Monks are challenging to play. The usual mistake is that people with monk characters think that they are fighters. This leads to the multiple deaths/uselessness that you have mentioned. Unlike a fighter, who has a lot of feats that provide options, monks are largely passive and largely defensive. As a monk, you have a good touch AC, good saves, poison immunity, evasion, and possibly arrow deflection. Unfortunately, you don't control any of those abilities. Your opponents determine whether those defenses come into play or not. Monks -do- have a wide variety of options when it comes to fighting tactically. You could grapple, trip, disarm, stunning fist, etc. THIS IS ONLY COOL IF YOU USE IT. As a monk, you need to assess every opponent, and decide what the right response is. It will change. You are strongest against evil wizards, and weakest against oozes and ghosts. Personally, I would build a monk to be a tactical fighter, and probably take two fighter levels if you want to be better still at tripping, taking AOs, using reach weapons, etc. I think your priority should be to decide what you actually hope to accomplish. We can help you build a character if we know what you want. Spiked chain trip machine? Monk/Rogue unarmed scout? Brawler with light armor and big strength? Grapple master? Nimble spring attack + pain touch combo?
_m_ 10-26-06, 09:25 PM	? Level 12: Ranger 5: Favored Enemy: Spring Attack sorry, that made me laugh when i skimmed over it... your favoured enemy is spring attack... TAKE THAT, you evil feat. sorry :D as for grapple master, (its funnier if you call it a grapple monkey...) take a quick look at a reapin mauler. the sleephold 3turnkill combo could come in handy.
Lomiat 10-26-06, 10:59 PM	Grappling, like Tripping, is a trick that works best at lower levels and wears away as monsters get bigger and bigger. I've become a fan of Stunning Fist (and related feats) over Improved Grapple (not to say you can't have both) as I've seen more monks and at higher levels. The monk I've adventured with the most is Bbn1/Mnk11, and he's a good character, but he needs the party's buffs to be really effective. However, once he's an Annis Hag with Greater Mage Armor and +5 fists, etc., he's pretty effective. He played dodge ball with a beholder for several rounds in one mod, and the beholder just aimed at ... pretty much everything else. Plus, the 70+ feet of movement are pretty cool, too.