Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rockondon 01-02-07, 04:38 AM	I'm starting Red Hand of Doom with my lvl 6 wood-elf combat cleric of Kelanen whom, looking at the rest of the party, will probably be on the front-line. She has craft wondrous item and craft arms and armor, but won't really be able to craft again until next year - where she'll be about 9th level. I should have lots of gold saved by then and am curious to know what items would be best to buy and/or craft. I see how arcane caster types get insane 40 or so AC with stuff like alter self (troglodyte) or polymorph self (green hag)and greater mage armor etc, but what can a cleric do? At level 9 or 10 I anticipate an AC around 30 - which is pretty lousy for a tin can. If there is some item that would let me cast alter self or polymorph on myself I'd love to know what it is. +10 Base +11 Full Plate +3 (magic vestment) +5 Shield +3 (magic vestment) +1 Dex(12) +2 Ring of Protection (I don't have this yet) +0 Amulet: (not sure but I think an ammy of health might do more for me than an ammy of natural armor) +1 Maybe an ioun stone or boots of haste (don't have these yet) total: 30 (34 if I cast righteous might) my stats: str: 18 dex: 12 con: 14 int: 6 wis: 15 chr: 8 I also have a +1 keen elven thinblade (crits on 15-20), a vest of resistance +2, a cloak that absorbs 10 energy damage/day, a helm that casts cure critical 1/day, gloves that let me reroll one attack/day. I'm leaning toward taking improved initiative as my next feat but is the feat quickened spell worth it? If I quicken a shield of faith does it stack with ring of protection (they're both deflection bonuses). Later down the road I might upgrade to mithral full plate and +4 dex gloves, but that won't be til around level 11.
UMiskatonic 01-02-07, 02:04 PM	Having an AC of (APL +20)is just fine. It prevents you from getting hit with the entire claw/claw/bite/wing/poke in the eye, and it prevents enemies for power attacking for 20. However, there is NO armor class that prevents you from getting hit at all. The game is designed so that primary attacks usually hit. Your party's job is to do damage faster than the enemy can. If you are the primary damage dealer, then I'd suggest getting power attack and a greatsword, and soon. If you are meant to stand in the front line, and delay opponents while archers and arcanists deal with them, then you are okay. Remember, you can always fight defensively, you can sometimes find cover as well. Concealment and miss chances also greatly reduce incoming damage. Deflection bonuses do NOT stack. Remember, that an amulet of health takes up the same slot as a periapt of wisdom. It's always a tough call for a cleric. A belt of dwarvenkind is one way around this, as is a bear's endurance spell. Aid isn't bad either. And why are you on your own here? You shouldn't be developing your tactics in a vacuum. Do you have a bard who can inspire? A mage who can enlarge you? Especially for RHoD, you'll be part of a larger group. Think about how you can help them, and how they can help you.
Howie23 01-02-07, 03:39 PM	I also have a +1 keen elven thinblade (crits on 15-20).. I'm leaning toward taking improved initiative as my next feat but is the feat quickened spell worth it? If I quicken a shield of faith does it stack with ring of protection (they're both deflection bonuses). From what you've described, you aren't proficient with the thinblade that you've put 8k into, so you might consider getting proficiency via Exo Wpn Prof or Improved Wpn Familiarity to prevent that nasty -4. Bonuses with the same type (two deflection bonuses) don't stack. I'm also not so sure using a 5th level spell for quickened shield of faith would be a good use of the slot. David
rockondon 01-02-07, 04:03 PM	From what you've described, you aren't proficient with the thinblade that you've put 8k into, so you might consider getting proficiency via Exo Wpn Prof or Improved Wpn Familiarity to prevent that nasty -4. being an elf the thinblade is a martial weapon to me, and the war domain from kellanen gave me the necessary weapon focus. <3 kellanen So yeah I won't take the quickened spell feat at 9th, maybe at 12th it'll be more feasible. But is there some awesome combination of stuff out there that can get my cleric's AC way higher? I see easy ways of making his combat way better, but in terms of AC I'm stuck. I'm going to be facing things with attack rolls of 25+ and want a decent chance to avoid them.
copper_wyrmling 01-02-07, 04:41 PM	Out of interest, how are you getting +3 Magic Vestments at L9? Divine Spell Power? If you want polymorph, you realize it's not a personal spell, right? Ask your friendly arcane if they would be able to cast it on you. If there's a druid in your party, they might be willing to give you Barkskin, especially if you can lend them a L2 pearl of power to cast it with. Recitation would give you a +3 luck bonus to AC, and you can cast that yourself. My L15 cleric's AC, in combat, tends to look like: 10 (base) +12 armor (+4 mithral full plate using Magic Vestment at CL16) +5 shield (+4 buckler using Magic Vestment at CL16) +4 deflection (extended Shield of Faith if we had warning, Quickened Shield of Faith otherwise) +2 sacred (special helm from a core special) +1 insight (dusty rose ioun stone) +3 Dex +1 dodge (boots of speed / haste) =38 If she uses Recitation (standard-action party buff), it goes to 41, if she gets a Barkskin from a friendly druid (using her pearl of power 2 and a lesser extend rod usually) it goes to 43, or 46 with Recitation. Having AC in the high 30's to low 40's has been enough to let her play tank, even with less-than-brilliant Con (due to slot conflict with her periapt of wisdom). It doesn't mean EVERYTHING misses, but "If I don't power attack, I hit half the time" is hugely less lethal than "I can power attack for full and only miss you on a 1", which is the situation with a number of the barbarians I've met.
Howie23 01-02-07, 05:39 PM	being an elf the thinblade is a martial weapon to me, and the war domain from kellanen gave me the necessary weapon focus. <3 kellanen Wish it were true, myself. :( Elves do not gain proficiency with thinblade, lightblade, or courtblade. Improved Weapon Familiarity does for you, however. David
UMiskatonic 01-02-07, 05:40 PM	I'm going to be facing things with attack rolls of 25+ and want a decent chance to avoid them. But one of the best ways to avoid them is to make sure that they only exist for 18 seconds. Push up your offense, and it will become a defense. Your cleric spells are actually well-suited for this kind of thing. "Sure, run up and charge me. That's the last thing you'll ever do"
clannagh 01-02-07, 05:42 PM	being an elf the thinblade is a martial weapon to me, and the war domain from kellanen gave me the necessary weapon focus. <3 kellanen So yeah I won't take the quickened spell feat at 9th, maybe at 12th it'll be more feasible. But is there some awesome combination of stuff out there that can get my cleric's AC way higher? I see easy ways of making his combat way better, but in terms of AC I'm stuck. I'm going to be facing things with attack rolls of 25+ and want a decent chance to avoid them. Being an elf doesnt automatically make all elven weapons martial .. that requires you take a feat, "Improved Weapon Familiarity" which specifically gives you all racial weapons as martial. Also remember a Cleric cannot hold both a weapon AND a heavy shield and cast spells with a somatic component .. that is made very clear in the FAQ and many GM's will enforce it. Buckler or light shield (grab weapon in shield hand temporarily and swap it back) both will work. As for the AC. - expertise can be a good feat investment for a cleric (full expertise combined with hitting defensively may mean you hit nothing (-9 to hit) but that extra 7 AC can let you move around in a very dangerous area a lot more safely) - dodge plus mobility also can work well for a healing cleric - a monks belt will add one AC but unfortunately only with no armor - acquire a druid cohort who casts barkskin or carry scrolls of it and hand them to druids in party - the ioun stone will stack with the boots of haste
clannagh 01-02-07, 05:46 PM	being an elf the thinblade is a martial weapon to me, and the war domain from kellanen gave me the necessary weapon focus. <3 kellanen So yeah I won't take the quickened spell feat at 9th, maybe at 12th it'll be more feasible. But is there some awesome combination of stuff out there that can get my cleric's AC way higher? I see easy ways of making his combat way better, but in terms of AC I'm stuck. I'm going to be facing things with attack rolls of 25+ and want a decent chance to avoid them. Being an elf doesnt automatically make all elven weapons martial .. that requires you take a feat, "Improved Weapon Familiarity" which specifically gives you all racial weapons as martial. Secondly a lot of GM's play that Kelanon weapon focus ONLY works with an actual martial weapon so expect table variation on this one .. I would carry a backup rapier for the occasional mod where you meet a difficult GM. Also remember a Cleric cannot hold both a weapon AND a heavy shield and cast spells with a somatic component .. that is made very clear in the FAQ and many GM's will enforce it. Buckler or light shield (grab weapon in shield hand temporarily and swap it back) both will work. As for the AC. - expertise can be a good feat investment for a cleric (full expertise combined with hitting defensively may mean you hit nothing (-9 to hit) but that extra 7 AC can let you move around in a very dangerous area a lot more safely) - dodge plus mobility also can work well for a healing cleric who moves about in combat - a monks belt will add one AC but unfortunately only with no armor - acquire a druid cohort who casts barkskin or carry scrolls of it and hand the scrolls to druids in party (or an arcane cohort who can polymorph you) - the ioun stone will stack with the boots of haste
copper_wyrmling 01-02-07, 06:00 PM	Ah, and something I didn't mention before... If you are tougher (combination of AC and HP) than everyone else in the party, you do NOT want the monsters to think they have no chance of hitting you, especially if your offence is low. They'll just walk around you and go chew on the squishies. My cleric cast Fire Shield a few times (from the Fire domain). She stopped fairly quickly, because the spell has a visible effect, and nobody EVER tried to hit her while it was up. (Hmmm, she's wearing fullplate and if we hit her it'll hurt... nah, we'll go chase the wizard instead...) When your AC is 35, and the next highest is 20, you really, really want the monsters to attack you rather than your friends. Convincing them that it's not worth trying to kill you is usually a BAD development. Thus... it's not that bad to be in a situation where they hit you on a 15-20, that might be enough that they decide to keep swinging at you rather than somebody with less AC.
UMiskatonic 01-03-07, 10:18 AM	But even if your AC is 8, you'll be ignored if you are not some kind of threat. The reason that the 30 AC fighter is attacked is because he's easily able to convince enemies "I am dangerous to you, RIGHT NOW. If you do not deal with me immediately, you only have seconds to live". Melee builds thrive on the combination of offense and defense. If you park yourself with 5ft of someone, they need to feel that they are in danger. Otherwise, they'll just leave, and beat up your friends.
rockondon 01-03-07, 02:25 PM	if I were to switch to using a 2-handed weapon, is there any item or feat that would grant me a shield bonus while using the weapon?
UMiskatonic 01-03-07, 02:47 PM	You could do the following: Cast shield (a shield bonus) Wear a ring of force shield (a shield bonus) Take the feat improved buckler defense (a shield bonus) Note that shield of faith is NOT a shield bonus, I've seen a few people get that wrong.
copper_wyrmling 01-03-07, 02:51 PM	You could do the following: Cast shield (a shield bonus) Wear a ring of force shield (a shield bonus) Take the feat improved buckler defense (a shield bonus) Note that shield of faith is NOT a shield bonus, I've seen a few people get that wrong. At higher levels, the preferred solution is usually an animated shield, but of course you need access. (My cleric didn't want to rely on access - and it is a risk, I've seen animated access exactly three times in about 160-170 ARs with all my PCs, all in either min-APL-10 or min-APL-12 modules - so she took improved buckler defence.)
Nutation 01-03-07, 03:02 PM	if I were to switch to using a 2-handed weapon, is there any item or feat that would grant me a shield bonus while using the weapon? Shield spell from a spell-storing ring or UMD a scroll Animated shield The ring of force shield requires a hand and generally won't work (table variation) Or, suck it up and don't use a shield.
clannagh 01-03-07, 07:04 PM	You could do the following: Cast shield (a shield bonus) Wear a ring of force shield (a shield bonus) Take the feat improved buckler defense (a shield bonus) Note that shield of faith is NOT a shield bonus, I've seen a few people get that wrong. yeah shield of faith is deflection and doesnt stack with deflection rings note that the wording of improved buckler defense is contoversial it seems to imply two weapon fighting .. some GM's may not allow it with ranged weapons and double handed weapons .. expect table variation
rockondon 01-04-07, 04:09 PM	At higher levels, the preferred solution is usually an animated shield, but of course you need access. (My cleric didn't want to rely on access - and it is a risk, I've seen animated access exactly three times in about 160-170 ARs with all my PCs, all in either min-APL-10 or min-APL-12 modules - so she took improved buckler defence.) I just went through the AR's on my cleric (a mere 26 of them) and found access for an animated adamantine shield under APL 2 access. I played it at APL 4. This AR is the bomb, it also gives me a free reincarnate, a get-out-of-jail free (so to speak) for anything save murder, a one-time access to various tables in the DMG (rings, rods, minor and medium wondrous items - such as boots of speed), and some guy named Ruen will make me one item out of mithral or adamantine. Playing interactives is the bomb. The only bummer is I have to wait til lvl 12 to craft one. but anyways guys, thx all for your input. I've figured out what I'm gonna do with the cleric.
copper_wyrmling 01-04-07, 04:33 PM	I just went through the AR's on my cleric (a mere 26 of them) and found access for an animated adamantine shield under APL 2 access. I played it at APL 4. This AR is the bomb, it also gives me a free reincarnate, a get-out-of-jail free (so to speak) for anything save murder, a one-time access to various tables in the DMG (rings, rods, minor and medium wondrous items - such as boots of speed), and some guy named Ruen will make me one item out of mithral or adamantine. Playing interactives is the bomb. Yeah... this is what we call Regional Variation :P It sounds like you're one of the lucky ones, though.
Mithreinmaethor 01-04-07, 05:26 PM	He still never addressed how he was using the weapon without proficiency
rockondon 01-04-07, 07:43 PM	I ditched the sword. I'm gonna go with something 2-handed now and craft the animated shield later - or buy it if I get access again.
Iswald 01-04-07, 10:29 PM	I ditched the sword. I'm gonna go with something 2-handed now and craft the animated shield later - or buy it if I get access again. How are you going to craft an animated shield as a cleric? Won't you need the animate object spell? Most likely, you'll have to find access to an animated shield again once you have the funds for it. Or, gain a favor that lets you add it to a shield you have.
Howie23 01-04-07, 11:00 PM	I ditched the sword. I'm gonna go with something 2-handed now and craft the animated shield later - or buy it if I get access again. That's a tough way to lose 4k GP. I'm not sure there's much of an option though. David
rockondon 01-04-07, 11:24 PM	How are you going to craft an animated shield as a cleric? Won't you need the animate object spell? Most likely, you'll have to find access to an animated shield again once you have the funds for it. Or, gain a favor that lets you add it to a shield you have. animate object is a cleric spell yo That's a tough way to lose 4k GP. I'm not sure there's much of an option though. David one nice thing about crafting - you sell the item for the same you paid for it (although I lost a little on the materials but meh). What he did lose was a little exp and a couple TUs which would have been spent playing modules. I wish I could have had those back but oh well - too late now.
Howie23 01-05-07, 12:38 AM	one nice thing about crafting - you sell the item for the same you paid for it (although I lost a little on the materials but meh). Ah, didn't realize you had the UMD ranks for the scrolls of keen edge or that the character was once CL10. My apologies. David
rockondon 01-05-07, 01:18 AM	Ah, didn't realize you had the UMD ranks for the scrolls of keen edge or that the character was once CL10. My apologies. oh that, yeah, well, I did make a wee mistake thinking that creating a sword +2 had the same reqs as a sword +1 with another +1 value enhancement but after coming to these boards I've come to realize a lot of my mistakes. /hides in the corner
Howie23 01-05-07, 01:34 AM	oh that, yeah, well, I did make a wee mistake thinking that creating a sword +2 had the same reqs as a sword +1 with another +1 value enhancement but after coming to these boards I've come to realize a lot of my mistakes. /hides in the corner Hey, who put the "audit" sign in the corner? ;) Seriously, if you think you have some documentation problems, you might work with someone experienced to get it worked out and set straight now. Self-disclosure and correction of legitimate errors is a policy that's hard to beat. David
UMiskatonic 01-05-07, 09:28 AM	I hear ya. I have a minor in math, and somehow fall down on basic arithmetic all the time. I'd say 1/6 of my ARs have something scratched out, and rewritten in. As long as you end up where you are supposed to, it's gravy. As a judge, I've bounced a few items out of the campaign where players didn't understand pricing, or use of certain things. To my surprise, everyone's been really cool about it. Recently I just bought a 2250 gp magic item with 1250 gp, realized I misread the price, and then readjusted my in-pocket gold. That's an ugly AR. I'm sure it's got nothing to do with wrapping games at 2am. ;)
Iswald 01-05-07, 09:31 AM	animate object is a cleric spell yo Somehow I always thought it was a sorcerer/wizard only spell. I wonder why.
qstor 01-08-07, 03:37 PM	Elves do not gain proficiency with thinblade, lightblade, or courtblade. Improved Weapon Familiarity does for you, however. David No its still an Exotic Weapon and if it becomes martial, he'll still lack proficiency with Martial weapons as a cleric. Mike
Howie23 01-08-07, 03:40 PM	No its still an Exotic Weapon and if it becomes martial, he'll still lack proficiency with Martial weapons as a cleric. Mike Clerics of Kelanan (war domain) gain martial proficiency with blades. David
jhorred 01-11-07, 12:52 AM	Look at the Heavy Armor Optimization Feats. If you want a high AC I'd take those instead of Imp Init.
clannagh 01-11-07, 01:11 AM	Clerics of Kelanan (war domain) gain martial proficiency with blades. David no .. martial swords there is a difference .. and many GM's would not allow an exotic weapon "used as martial" due to a feat to count as a martial weapon .. you would therefore be risking table variance on your primary weapon