Paladin of Allitur [Archive] - Wizards Community

Paladin of Allitur [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Haro
05-10-07, 06:23 AM I plan to make a Paladin of Allitur that goes into Gray Guard (probably 5/10 but flexible on that). Using the spear and with no real emphasis on a mount, does anyone have suggestions on the feat progression? Most of the usual Paladin feats require turn undead attempts or otherwise cannot be taken at first.

At this stage, I am thinking;

Human (flan)
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 15, bumps to Charisma.

Which two feats should get me kickstarted? Should it be Power Attack and Cleave? Having never played a Paladin before (they're also rare locally) I'm a wee bit unsure here. Thanks in advance.
_metz_
05-10-07, 07:43 AM Hmm, seems like It would go very well with paladin/favoured soul levels...

Also more Con would be a good idea...

Stats:

Str: 15
Dex: 12 (For full plate)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

1 stat bump to str rest to charisma (get a cloak ASAP)

The DCs of you spells will be really low, but as a favored soul take healing spells or personal ones and you will be fine...

1 Paladin1: Power Attack, (???)
2 Favored Soul1:
3 Favored Soul2: (Feat???)
4 Favored Soul3: Weapon focus: Spear
5 Paladin2: (For Divine Grace)
6 Gray Guard1: (Feat???)
7 Gray Guard2:
8 Gray Guard3:
9 Gray Guard4: (Feat???)
10 Gray Guard5:
11 Gray Guard6:
12 Gray Guard7: (Feat???)
13 Gray Guard8:
14 Gray Guard9:
15 Gray Guard10: (Feat???)

You end up with BaB of 14, but cast as an 8th level Favoured Soul... (4th level spells) Are a 12th level Paladin for lay on hands/smite and get all your grey guard in.

Grey guard doesn't stack with turning so it doesn't seem a big issue.

I am unsure as to the feats though, as never really seen gray guard... what do you want to do with the character?
Southernskies
05-10-07, 08:04 AM Power Attack and Cleave are always a good choice for a fighter-type.
I would recommend more Con though; my old primary (Stanton Fioris Staalrijder Rosrijder) started with a 12 Con and died quite a few times through lack of hit points.

Don't know the pre-reqs for Grey Guard, but, building off your Cha based build:

Kni1/Pal4/GG10

Str: 15, Dex: 12, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 14

1. Kni1 - Power Attack, Cleave, (Fighting Challenge)
2. Pal1
3. Pal2 - WF: Spear, (lay on hands)
4. Pal3 (+1 Str)
5. Pal4 (turning + ability to cast bless weapon with a Wis stat booster)
6. GG1 - divine might
7. GG2
8. GG3 (+1 ??)
9. GG4 - sacred vengeance (anti-undead being in Perrenland)
10. GG5
11. GG6
12. GG7 - extra turning (you'll probably need more per day by this point) (+1 ??)
13. GG8
14. GG9
15. GG10 - ??

Full BAB progression, some spellcasting; morale bonus to attack and damage; extra damage from using turning attempts
_metz_
05-10-07, 08:46 AM Issue is, Gray guard only gives half spell casting progression, hence if you take 3 favored soul first, you will end up being much more flexible. Also with the number of favored soul spells per day, useful amounts of healing for sure. - coupled with CON 14 thats a character much more able to deal with a few fights...

Also Free Weapon Focus is always good...

Also Favored souls are well known to operate more out of the church's standard doctrine.. so there is some role play justification.

I think the Favored soul route will be a better option. (no sense is wasting the spell casting progression)
Haro
05-10-07, 05:52 PM Favored Soul is not a bad idea, I'll look into it.

Just a quick note, the dex was 10 because Heavy Plate is now open access (+9 AC +0 Max Dex).
GenghisBob
05-14-07, 06:49 PM 12 con is fine for a paladin. (You have so many abilities to power up, you need a heavy justification each time you put in 6 points to any stat.) You also have AOOP free self healing if you realy need it.

AS you are using spear take Power attack fer Sure, shame it was not Long spear. Anyhoo.

Paladin gives you enough Spells /Use of CLWs etc AND lay on hands that you dont need to dilute your build with a 0 BAB caster class like favoured soul. Unless you relly want the +3 +3 +3 to all saves with a two level dip. Favoured soul also dilutes your Smite ability...

Normally i would say Stay with Paladin for the Mount progression, esspeically as Allitur has such a special bond with Keph (the war horse of power). But Grey guard really fits an Allitur Build well, far better than Favoured soul with the justice aspects.

One thing you would be Rude to overlook is the smite.

Your Paladin and grey guard smite stack. So Extra smite as soon as you are able to take it (6th level), The smite bonus to hit works of your Charsima.

So you may as well take the Turning Feat Divine Might, add your Charisma bonus to your damage for a round as a free action.

Divine Vigour would be a good 9th level Feat, extra movement and +2 hp/ level, this also compensates for you 12 con in the APL 8-10 game, where you need it the most. You can retrain it out to something more useful at level 12. Or if the 12 con is realy giving you an issue take Improved toughness.

You should have enough turn attempts, if you dont then you could take more at 12th.

For your bonus Human feat at first, consider Weapon Focus (spear), Cleave or Improved initative. WFS will be usefull through out your PCs life. Improved Int will be great until about APL 8, after that you will find your self dealying for the AOE, Hastes and BUffs before acting, and Cleave is nice when you have it, and you want it some times, but not real necesary.
GenghisBob
05-14-07, 07:04 PM Issue is, Gray guard only gives half spell casting progression, hence if you take 3 favored soul first, you will end up being much more flexible.

If spell casting is the focus of the PC then Cleric would be a better dip then favoured soul for true versatility, a favoured soul at 3rd level only knows 4 first level spells and Grey Guard is really not a suitable PrC for a caster focused Paladin.
clannagh
05-14-07, 09:06 PM Consider 5 paladin just to get a mount even if you do not intend to regularly use it. Get yourself access to something like a griffon and you have a summonable intelligent flying "get out of jail free card" for emergencies. Remember that an extra paladin levels give you better smite and lay on hands as well as the mount.
GenghisBob
05-14-07, 09:56 PM Consider 5 paladin just to get a mount even if you do not intend to regularly use it. Get yourself access to something like a griffon and you have a summonable intelligent flying "get out of jail free card" for emergencies. Remember that an extra paladin levels give you better smite and lay on hands as well as the mount.

6th level + is needed for alterante mounts, 10th level is a good level to bail on Paladin and still have a marginal mount able to survie compared with full paladin progression. I would not go 5th paladin just for a mount - as it only lasts 5 hours per day and has 4 HD.

Grey Guard does stack for Lay on hands and Smite, and for a nice bonus gives Smite Chaos as well as Evil so has good synergy with Paladin, if your willing to skimp on the mount.
clannagh
05-14-07, 10:25 PM 6th level + is needed for alterante mounts, 10th level is a good level to bail on Paladin and still have a marginal mount able to survie compared with full paladin progression. I would not go 5th paladin just for a mount - as it only lasts 5 hours per day and has 4 HD.

Grey Guard does stack for Lay on hands and Smite, and for a nice bonus gives Smite Chaos as well as Evil so has good synergy with Paladin, if your willing to skimp on the mount.

true that i forgot about the level restrictions, I think griffon requires a level 8 or so paladin
_metz_
05-15-07, 07:20 AM If spell casting is the focus of the PC then Cleric would be a better dip then favoured soul for true versatility, a favoured soul at 3rd level only knows 4 first level spells and Grey Guard is really not a suitable PrC for a caster focused Paladin.

Yes but cleric is wisdom based, and he looks like he wants to have high charisma. Also he doesn't seem to WANT a caster based character, and favored soul caster progression is great for healing and buffing himself.

I was working with the stats given. Charisma is often fun... Also it is important for the smite ability (which seems key for the class) And Lay on hands.

Going Straight paladin seems a waste as the turning doesn't stack, caster progression is halved, and you don't get the good mounts.

He wants a Paladin Grey guard, 3 Favoured soul levels gives him a feat, a casting class that stacks with his charisma ability, and you only lose one BaB and get good saves. As you end up with 8 caster levels in either build, Favoured soul makes more sense than Cleric as both have 4th level spells only this way you can stick with one primary stat, and have a LOT of spells.

I don't see whats wrong with it personally...

(Also means CWI comes into play - Favoured souls use Scrolls as well, so yay for stat boosters)

It will be difficult stat wise to manage the character with wisdom and charisma.

Also a Paladin Favored Soul is fun to roleplay.
GenghisBob
05-15-07, 09:02 AM Also he doesn't seem to WANT a caster based character, and favored soul caster progression is great for healing and buffing himself.

But your build and justification seem to want to fix the casting limitations of the build?

It really depends what Haro wants from his Paladin.

Its not just BAB you are loosing by taking anything but paladin or Grey Guard, its Lay on hands and Smite.

Is a free feat, that is best taken at 1st level worth loosing 3 levels of Lay on hands and Smite for? Maybee the ability to cast 4 differnt first level spells?

What spells would you Pick?

I think most of the really useful ones can be purchased for 25gp and cast by the paladin.

I don't see whats wrong with it personally.

Maybe try and play it and see how it sits around Level 10? or try it out in Xendrixs?

I was working with the stats given. Charisma is often fun... Also it is important for the smite ability (which seems key for the class) And Lay on hands.

Exactly. So why remove three levels of Smite and lay on hands?
_metz_
05-15-07, 09:57 AM because straight paladin will result in something much less optimal.

A 15 BAB full smite smite/lay on hands

10th level Paladin Spells (A couple of 1st and 2nd level spells)

Turns as a level 2 cleric
5th level Paladin mounts

Saves: +11 +8 +8

OR.

A 14 BAB

12th level Smite/lay on hands (1 less smite, 3 less damage each smite)
Favoured Soul Caster level 8 (4th level spells - stupid amount each day)
Free Feat

Saves: +13 +10 +10

Thats 2 extra on each save, 3 less damage on each smite, 1 less smite in total - and lets negate the lay on hands as you are a favored soul now and can heal a lot better

And 3rd and 4th level spells. And a HELL of a lot more spells.

AS for your comment on what I know of what he wants for his build, he said NO emphasis on mount, wants to use the favored weapon, and clearly wants high strength and charisma.

Correct me If I am wrong but that is what I came up with. Don't claim I am building him a separate build, this is more optimal, is in character, and seems to be what he is after - he even said he liked the look of it.

You questioned my decision based on the fact that I wanted to build a caster - "Grey Guard is not a good Caster PrC" - I was actually trying to make optimal use of the caster progression in the class, its an utter waste to spend it on Paladin caster progression.

Finally I don't see how "try it out in Xendrixs?" is relevant at ALL to LG character development, if you think it is, then you are definitely wrong.

AND FYI - in your build, at level 10 he is a 10th level Paladin with casting ability of a 7th level (only level 1 spells), with NO special mount of note, one less feat and dodgy turning. (useful only for turning feats, which a combat paladin really can't afford if they want to damage produce)

In the build I proposed, would be a 7th level for smite (which is CHA based I might add for the important to hit roll), 5th level Favoured Soul With a BAB of +9 and 2nd level spells. Oh, and higher saves. Oh yeah, did I mention the free feat? we don't have a fighter here - feats are HARD to come by.

Have you actually compared the builds? or are you just attacking mine?
GenghisBob
05-15-07, 05:35 PM No Im not attacking your build, merrely poitning out your build is trying to fix the caster issue. - which i think is contra to the Grey guard PRC concept.

Just steady on tiger, you seem to take things way to personally.
We obviously see this concept as having differnet focus.

Your selling point is a free feat and Spell casting. I think the free feat comes at way to high a cost for a grey guard build that has a lot of focus in smite and lay on hands.

And xendrixs is a good place to try out builds. Same as LoTGR used to be. Prior to committing it to LG. The Ability to jump into a game with a higher level build and test run it is invaluable. Obviously you must be a new LG player not to have heard or used that utility.

How does a full level paladin only have 5th level mounts? or do you mean a Pal5GGX build?

If Haro is concerend about his Casting then the build you propsosed trys to fix it. If, he is about maximising his Grey Gauard PRC then he will try and use Paladin for the smite/ lay on hand progression.

If you have played a high level paladin/cleric/templar with a smite you would realise that loosing a smite attack per day is sub opitmal.
Haro
05-15-07, 05:35 PM Having just picked up a copy of Complete Divine and seeing a tasty Paladin casting feat in there, I'm considering straight Paladin. The feat allows standard action Paladin spells to be cast as swifts...huzzah!

So the stat array will probably now look like this;

Str 16, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 15
GenghisBob
05-15-07, 05:49 PM THat is a spicy meatball of a feat!

Nothing like Swift Paladin spells in the front line.

So what is it called?
Haro
05-15-07, 05:55 PM THat is a spicy meatball of a feat!

Nothing like Swift Paladin spells in the front line.

So what is it called?

Battle Blessing.
_metz_
05-15-07, 11:31 PM All I was saying is that 1 BAB, 1 extra smite (3 less points of damage each smite) and lay on hands and a few 1st and 2nd level spells doesn't equal: 8th Level Favoured Soul.

Furthermore, Xendrik Modules from what I have seen are nothing like LG modules, in terms of character wealth, encounters, and rules options. Hence this character may be not as good cos in Xendrik they allow base classes/PrCs that are not allowed in LG, and by comparison seems weaker. (Dragon Shaman? etc) I am relatively new to LG, about a year and a half, but from what I have seen in Xendrik, it is NOTHING like LG.

Also Battle Blessing is NONC.

You will need access, basing a build around access can be dangerous.

I wasn't taking what you said personally, its just that your justification of why favored soul wasn't worth it was too brief and only mentioned loss of smite and lay on hands for three levels. That doesn't equate with me. When someone asks for build help, you need to step by step go through why the option is the best, instead of just blankly saying it is.
_metz_
05-15-07, 11:34 PM Having just picked up a copy of Complete Divine and seeing a tasty Paladin casting feat in there, I'm considering straight Paladin. The feat allows standard action Paladin spells to be cast as swifts...huzzah!

So the stat array will probably now look like this;

Str 16, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 15

You should not have 8 dex. Especially if you are a non crafter who needs AC.

Also 12 Con is far too low for a combat character who isn't an elf. You are trying to do too many things methinks, and this will mean your character isn't 'good' at anything.
copper_wyrmling
05-16-07, 12:02 AM AND FYI - in your build, at level 10 he is a 10th level Paladin with casting ability of a 7th level (only level 1 spells), with NO special mount of note, one less feat and dodgy turning. (useful only for turning feats, which a combat paladin really can't afford if they want to damage produce)

I don't see the free feat from favored soul as being that useful unless you're using it as a prereq, since it gives +1 to hit with favored weapon but comes at a cost of -1 to BAB. It does work to partially offset the BAB loss.

Divine Might is a very nice turning feat for a combat paladin (burn a turn attempt as a free action, add Cha bonus to damage for a round).

It's a nice idea to use the Grey Guard progression to build up spellcasting from another class, but as GenghisBob said, it depends what the OP wants to do. Trading turning, a point of BAB, +3 smite damage and 3*Cha lay on hands for eight levels of favored soul spellcasting at fifteenth level is not a no-brainer (in either direction).
Mommy was an Orc
05-16-07, 12:24 PM There's a problem with the Favored Soul as well - you lose Turning with 3 levels of it. So while you're gaining spells, you lose Divine Might. You also can't split up your Paladin levels like that either.

If I were going to emphasize the casting part of Grey Guard, I'd do one of the following things:
Fighter 2/Cleric 1/Paladin 2 - Allitur's domains are not good for this.
or
Paladin 4/Favored Soul 1
or
Paladin 4/Fighter 1/Pious Templar 4 - I like this one best, but it has the obvious problem of not finishing Grey Guard and again, Allitur doesn't exactly have a great weapon to get WS in.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Haro 05-10-07, 06:23 AM	I plan to make a Paladin of Allitur that goes into Gray Guard (probably 5/10 but flexible on that). Using the spear and with no real emphasis on a mount, does anyone have suggestions on the feat progression? Most of the usual Paladin feats require turn undead attempts or otherwise cannot be taken at first. At this stage, I am thinking; Human (flan) Str 16, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 15, bumps to Charisma. Which two feats should get me kickstarted? Should it be Power Attack and Cleave? Having never played a Paladin before (they're also rare locally) I'm a wee bit unsure here. Thanks in advance.
_metz_ 05-10-07, 07:43 AM	Hmm, seems like It would go very well with paladin/favoured soul levels... Also more Con would be a good idea... Stats: Str: 15 Dex: 12 (For full plate) Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 14 1 stat bump to str rest to charisma (get a cloak ASAP) The DCs of you spells will be really low, but as a favored soul take healing spells or personal ones and you will be fine... 1 Paladin1: Power Attack, (???) 2 Favored Soul1: 3 Favored Soul2: (Feat???) 4 Favored Soul3: Weapon focus: Spear 5 Paladin2: (For Divine Grace) 6 Gray Guard1: (Feat???) 7 Gray Guard2: 8 Gray Guard3: 9 Gray Guard4: (Feat???) 10 Gray Guard5: 11 Gray Guard6: 12 Gray Guard7: (Feat???) 13 Gray Guard8: 14 Gray Guard9: 15 Gray Guard10: (Feat???) You end up with BaB of 14, but cast as an 8th level Favoured Soul... (4th level spells) Are a 12th level Paladin for lay on hands/smite and get all your grey guard in. Grey guard doesn't stack with turning so it doesn't seem a big issue. I am unsure as to the feats though, as never really seen gray guard... what do you want to do with the character?
Southernskies 05-10-07, 08:04 AM	Power Attack and Cleave are always a good choice for a fighter-type. I would recommend more Con though; my old primary (Stanton Fioris Staalrijder Rosrijder) started with a 12 Con and died quite a few times through lack of hit points. Don't know the pre-reqs for Grey Guard, but, building off your Cha based build: Kni1/Pal4/GG10 Str: 15, Dex: 12, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 14 1. Kni1 - Power Attack, Cleave, (Fighting Challenge) 2. Pal1 3. Pal2 - WF: Spear, (lay on hands) 4. Pal3 (+1 Str) 5. Pal4 (turning + ability to cast bless weapon with a Wis stat booster) 6. GG1 - divine might 7. GG2 8. GG3 (+1 ??) 9. GG4 - sacred vengeance (anti-undead being in Perrenland) 10. GG5 11. GG6 12. GG7 - extra turning (you'll probably need more per day by this point) (+1 ??) 13. GG8 14. GG9 15. GG10 - ?? Full BAB progression, some spellcasting; morale bonus to attack and damage; extra damage from using turning attempts
_metz_ 05-10-07, 08:46 AM	Issue is, Gray guard only gives half spell casting progression, hence if you take 3 favored soul first, you will end up being much more flexible. Also with the number of favored soul spells per day, useful amounts of healing for sure. - coupled with CON 14 thats a character much more able to deal with a few fights... Also Free Weapon Focus is always good... Also Favored souls are well known to operate more out of the church's standard doctrine.. so there is some role play justification. I think the Favored soul route will be a better option. (no sense is wasting the spell casting progression)
Haro 05-10-07, 05:52 PM	Favored Soul is not a bad idea, I'll look into it. Just a quick note, the dex was 10 because Heavy Plate is now open access (+9 AC +0 Max Dex).
GenghisBob 05-14-07, 06:49 PM	12 con is fine for a paladin. (You have so many abilities to power up, you need a heavy justification each time you put in 6 points to any stat.) You also have AOOP free self healing if you realy need it. AS you are using spear take Power attack fer Sure, shame it was not Long spear. Anyhoo. Paladin gives you enough Spells /Use of CLWs etc AND lay on hands that you dont need to dilute your build with a 0 BAB caster class like favoured soul. Unless you relly want the +3 +3 +3 to all saves with a two level dip. Favoured soul also dilutes your Smite ability... Normally i would say Stay with Paladin for the Mount progression, esspeically as Allitur has such a special bond with Keph (the war horse of power). But Grey guard really fits an Allitur Build well, far better than Favoured soul with the justice aspects. One thing you would be Rude to overlook is the smite. Your Paladin and grey guard smite stack. So Extra smite as soon as you are able to take it (6th level), The smite bonus to hit works of your Charsima. So you may as well take the Turning Feat Divine Might, add your Charisma bonus to your damage for a round as a free action. Divine Vigour would be a good 9th level Feat, extra movement and +2 hp/ level, this also compensates for you 12 con in the APL 8-10 game, where you need it the most. You can retrain it out to something more useful at level 12. Or if the 12 con is realy giving you an issue take Improved toughness. You should have enough turn attempts, if you dont then you could take more at 12th. For your bonus Human feat at first, consider Weapon Focus (spear), Cleave or Improved initative. WFS will be usefull through out your PCs life. Improved Int will be great until about APL 8, after that you will find your self dealying for the AOE, Hastes and BUffs before acting, and Cleave is nice when you have it, and you want it some times, but not real necesary.
GenghisBob 05-14-07, 07:04 PM	Issue is, Gray guard only gives half spell casting progression, hence if you take 3 favored soul first, you will end up being much more flexible. If spell casting is the focus of the PC then Cleric would be a better dip then favoured soul for true versatility, a favoured soul at 3rd level only knows 4 first level spells and Grey Guard is really not a suitable PrC for a caster focused Paladin.
clannagh 05-14-07, 09:06 PM	Consider 5 paladin just to get a mount even if you do not intend to regularly use it. Get yourself access to something like a griffon and you have a summonable intelligent flying "get out of jail free card" for emergencies. Remember that an extra paladin levels give you better smite and lay on hands as well as the mount.
GenghisBob 05-14-07, 09:56 PM	Consider 5 paladin just to get a mount even if you do not intend to regularly use it. Get yourself access to something like a griffon and you have a summonable intelligent flying "get out of jail free card" for emergencies. Remember that an extra paladin levels give you better smite and lay on hands as well as the mount. 6th level + is needed for alterante mounts, 10th level is a good level to bail on Paladin and still have a marginal mount able to survie compared with full paladin progression. I would not go 5th paladin just for a mount - as it only lasts 5 hours per day and has 4 HD. Grey Guard does stack for Lay on hands and Smite, and for a nice bonus gives Smite Chaos as well as Evil so has good synergy with Paladin, if your willing to skimp on the mount.
clannagh 05-14-07, 10:25 PM	6th level + is needed for alterante mounts, 10th level is a good level to bail on Paladin and still have a marginal mount able to survie compared with full paladin progression. I would not go 5th paladin just for a mount - as it only lasts 5 hours per day and has 4 HD. Grey Guard does stack for Lay on hands and Smite, and for a nice bonus gives Smite Chaos as well as Evil so has good synergy with Paladin, if your willing to skimp on the mount. true that i forgot about the level restrictions, I think griffon requires a level 8 or so paladin
_metz_ 05-15-07, 07:20 AM	If spell casting is the focus of the PC then Cleric would be a better dip then favoured soul for true versatility, a favoured soul at 3rd level only knows 4 first level spells and Grey Guard is really not a suitable PrC for a caster focused Paladin. Yes but cleric is wisdom based, and he looks like he wants to have high charisma. Also he doesn't seem to WANT a caster based character, and favored soul caster progression is great for healing and buffing himself. I was working with the stats given. Charisma is often fun... Also it is important for the smite ability (which seems key for the class) And Lay on hands. Going Straight paladin seems a waste as the turning doesn't stack, caster progression is halved, and you don't get the good mounts. He wants a Paladin Grey guard, 3 Favoured soul levels gives him a feat, a casting class that stacks with his charisma ability, and you only lose one BaB and get good saves. As you end up with 8 caster levels in either build, Favoured soul makes more sense than Cleric as both have 4th level spells only this way you can stick with one primary stat, and have a LOT of spells. I don't see whats wrong with it personally... (Also means CWI comes into play - Favoured souls use Scrolls as well, so yay for stat boosters) It will be difficult stat wise to manage the character with wisdom and charisma. Also a Paladin Favored Soul is fun to roleplay.
GenghisBob 05-15-07, 09:02 AM	Also he doesn't seem to WANT a caster based character, and favored soul caster progression is great for healing and buffing himself. But your build and justification seem to want to fix the casting limitations of the build? It really depends what Haro wants from his Paladin. Its not just BAB you are loosing by taking anything but paladin or Grey Guard, its Lay on hands and Smite. Is a free feat, that is best taken at 1st level worth loosing 3 levels of Lay on hands and Smite for? Maybee the ability to cast 4 differnt first level spells? What spells would you Pick? I think most of the really useful ones can be purchased for 25gp and cast by the paladin. I don't see whats wrong with it personally. Maybe try and play it and see how it sits around Level 10? or try it out in Xendrixs? I was working with the stats given. Charisma is often fun... Also it is important for the smite ability (which seems key for the class) And Lay on hands. Exactly. So why remove three levels of Smite and lay on hands?
_metz_ 05-15-07, 09:57 AM	because straight paladin will result in something much less optimal. A 15 BAB full smite smite/lay on hands 10th level Paladin Spells (A couple of 1st and 2nd level spells) Turns as a level 2 cleric 5th level Paladin mounts Saves: +11 +8 +8 OR. A 14 BAB 12th level Smite/lay on hands (1 less smite, 3 less damage each smite) Favoured Soul Caster level 8 (4th level spells - stupid amount each day) Free Feat Saves: +13 +10 +10 Thats 2 extra on each save, 3 less damage on each smite, 1 less smite in total - and lets negate the lay on hands as you are a favored soul now and can heal a lot better And 3rd and 4th level spells. And a HELL of a lot more spells. AS for your comment on what I know of what he wants for his build, he said NO emphasis on mount, wants to use the favored weapon, and clearly wants high strength and charisma. Correct me If I am wrong but that is what I came up with. Don't claim I am building him a separate build, this is more optimal, is in character, and seems to be what he is after - he even said he liked the look of it. You questioned my decision based on the fact that I wanted to build a caster - "Grey Guard is not a good Caster PrC" - I was actually trying to make optimal use of the caster progression in the class, its an utter waste to spend it on Paladin caster progression. Finally I don't see how "try it out in Xendrixs?" is relevant at ALL to LG character development, if you think it is, then you are definitely wrong. AND FYI - in your build, at level 10 he is a 10th level Paladin with casting ability of a 7th level (only level 1 spells), with NO special mount of note, one less feat and dodgy turning. (useful only for turning feats, which a combat paladin really can't afford if they want to damage produce) In the build I proposed, would be a 7th level for smite (which is CHA based I might add for the important to hit roll), 5th level Favoured Soul With a BAB of +9 and 2nd level spells. Oh, and higher saves. Oh yeah, did I mention the free feat? we don't have a fighter here - feats are HARD to come by. Have you actually compared the builds? or are you just attacking mine?
GenghisBob 05-15-07, 05:35 PM	No Im not attacking your build, merrely poitning out your build is trying to fix the caster issue. - which i think is contra to the Grey guard PRC concept. Just steady on tiger, you seem to take things way to personally. We obviously see this concept as having differnet focus. Your selling point is a free feat and Spell casting. I think the free feat comes at way to high a cost for a grey guard build that has a lot of focus in smite and lay on hands. And xendrixs is a good place to try out builds. Same as LoTGR used to be. Prior to committing it to LG. The Ability to jump into a game with a higher level build and test run it is invaluable. Obviously you must be a new LG player not to have heard or used that utility. How does a full level paladin only have 5th level mounts? or do you mean a Pal5GGX build? If Haro is concerend about his Casting then the build you propsosed trys to fix it. If, he is about maximising his Grey Gauard PRC then he will try and use Paladin for the smite/ lay on hand progression. If you have played a high level paladin/cleric/templar with a smite you would realise that loosing a smite attack per day is sub opitmal.
Haro 05-15-07, 05:35 PM	Having just picked up a copy of Complete Divine and seeing a tasty Paladin casting feat in there, I'm considering straight Paladin. The feat allows standard action Paladin spells to be cast as swifts...huzzah! So the stat array will probably now look like this; Str 16, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 15
GenghisBob 05-15-07, 05:49 PM	THat is a spicy meatball of a feat! Nothing like Swift Paladin spells in the front line. So what is it called?
Haro 05-15-07, 05:55 PM	THat is a spicy meatball of a feat! Nothing like Swift Paladin spells in the front line. So what is it called? Battle Blessing.
_metz_ 05-15-07, 11:31 PM	All I was saying is that 1 BAB, 1 extra smite (3 less points of damage each smite) and lay on hands and a few 1st and 2nd level spells doesn't equal: 8th Level Favoured Soul. Furthermore, Xendrik Modules from what I have seen are nothing like LG modules, in terms of character wealth, encounters, and rules options. Hence this character may be not as good cos in Xendrik they allow base classes/PrCs that are not allowed in LG, and by comparison seems weaker. (Dragon Shaman? etc) I am relatively new to LG, about a year and a half, but from what I have seen in Xendrik, it is NOTHING like LG. Also Battle Blessing is NONC. You will need access, basing a build around access can be dangerous. I wasn't taking what you said personally, its just that your justification of why favored soul wasn't worth it was too brief and only mentioned loss of smite and lay on hands for three levels. That doesn't equate with me. When someone asks for build help, you need to step by step go through why the option is the best, instead of just blankly saying it is.
_metz_ 05-15-07, 11:34 PM	Having just picked up a copy of Complete Divine and seeing a tasty Paladin casting feat in there, I'm considering straight Paladin. The feat allows standard action Paladin spells to be cast as swifts...huzzah! So the stat array will probably now look like this; Str 16, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 15 You should not have 8 dex. Especially if you are a non crafter who needs AC. Also 12 Con is far too low for a combat character who isn't an elf. You are trying to do too many things methinks, and this will mean your character isn't 'good' at anything.
copper_wyrmling 05-16-07, 12:02 AM	AND FYI - in your build, at level 10 he is a 10th level Paladin with casting ability of a 7th level (only level 1 spells), with NO special mount of note, one less feat and dodgy turning. (useful only for turning feats, which a combat paladin really can't afford if they want to damage produce) I don't see the free feat from favored soul as being that useful unless you're using it as a prereq, since it gives +1 to hit with favored weapon but comes at a cost of -1 to BAB. It does work to partially offset the BAB loss. Divine Might is a very nice turning feat for a combat paladin (burn a turn attempt as a free action, add Cha bonus to damage for a round). It's a nice idea to use the Grey Guard progression to build up spellcasting from another class, but as GenghisBob said, it depends what the OP wants to do. Trading turning, a point of BAB, +3 smite damage and 3*Cha lay on hands for eight levels of favored soul spellcasting at fifteenth level is not a no-brainer (in either direction).
Mommy was an Orc 05-16-07, 12:24 PM	There's a problem with the Favored Soul as well - you lose Turning with 3 levels of it. So while you're gaining spells, you lose Divine Might. You also can't split up your Paladin levels like that either. If I were going to emphasize the casting part of Grey Guard, I'd do one of the following things: Fighter 2/Cleric 1/Paladin 2 - Allitur's domains are not good for this. or Paladin 4/Favored Soul 1 or Paladin 4/Fighter 1/Pious Templar 4 - I like this one best, but it has the obvious problem of not finishing Grey Guard and again, Allitur doesn't exactly have a great weapon to get WS in.