Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ornsjach 08-18-07, 08:45 AM	OK persona build via of Master of masks got shot down so me and a friend were talking and we thought a summoner build would be more on target. problem is the best summoner i can come up with is a Cleric of Trithereon (summoner and strength domains)with all the summoner feats i can toss in, but i cant seem to find a PrC for it. The idea is to summon at lest enough monsters to put us on equal footing with the encounters (which are insanely hard here our apl2s are equal to core apl4s) and still be able to contribute to battle my self. much like the hero of my favorite non-D&D game series(personia 2&3) any suggestions for PrCs or builds for such a char would be greatly appreciated current scores are :Str14 dex 10 con 14 int 10 wis 15 cha12 though thay can be changed as needed thanks in advance, ornsjach
Iswald 08-18-07, 10:32 AM	I'm not sure why you need a high strength as a summoner, though it'll help if you wear heavy armor. I assume that you've already got spell focus [conjuration] and augment summoning covered. A level of alienist is often considered a worthwhile investment for cleric and wizard summoners, if you have access. You may also want to consider domain spontaneity, move more points into charisma with this. If you take the good domain along with summoner, all of the celestial creatures you summon at first level can stick around for four rounds. Rapid spell and metamagic spell focus feats are good investments, likely all you'll be able to get in the time remaining. ;) Druids do get a few stronger creatures earlier than clerics and wizards. Dire animals and elementals are one spell level lower. Augmented dire wolves can take out a lot of creatures at APL 6, even at APL 8 they are pretty tough.
jstorrie 08-18-07, 12:30 PM	Alienist is not that great for Cleric summoners (it eats 2 points of Wisdom) but it is good for Favoured Souls. A Favoured Soul with Deity's Favour, Metamagic Spell Focus (Conjuration), and Imbued Summoning could be neat–summon creatures with built in buffs and extra hit points? Human 1 Favoured Soul of Trithereon: Augment Summoning, Spell Focus: Conjuration 2 Favoured Soul 3 Favoured Soul: Deity's Favour, Imbued Summoning 4 Favoured Soul 5 Favoured Soul 6 Favoured Soul: Metamagic School Focus 7 Alienist 8 Alienist 9 Alienist: Quicken Spell, Empower Spell 10 Alienist 11 Alienist 12 Alienist: Leadership 13 Alienist: Rapid Spell 14 Alienist 15 Alienist: Improved Initiative Alienist access isn't too hard to find-read the blurbs for some of active mods and you'll find one that will offer it, more likely than not.
ornsjach 08-18-07, 02:49 PM	the high str is so i can contribute to battle too. As for Alienist wouldn't it get me hunted by the dreadwalkers?
Hariman 08-18-07, 06:36 PM	the high str is so i can contribute to battle too. As for Alienist wouldn't it get me hunted by the dreadwalkers? Not in core modules. Only in Keoland Regionals, or potentially Sheldomar Valley Metaregionals is it risky. Playing an Alienist in Keoland is only risky, because you COULD get arrested. BUT, you could use the Disguise Skill or spells to conceal that you are an alienist. It's not guaranteed to keep a character from being arrested. But the only other option is to play the character in only Core or Adaptable modules.
jstorrie 08-18-07, 07:47 PM	Playing an Alienist in Keoland is only risky if you summon a pseudonatural creature in front of an NPC witness or if you let your pseudonatural familiar out in public (not a worry for a Favoured Soul) or if you fess up to being an Alienist. There's otherwise no way to tell that that's what you do, since you won't get to Alienist 10 for the physical change. (I always found it a bit weird that Master Transmografists were outlawed. Is this just because the regional triad thought should be Closed?)
ornsjach 08-18-07, 08:47 PM	in keoland the adaptive (Mission: "Contemplative) is coming up soon so if i take 1 lvl of it i can get the summoning domain then go into Alienist but ya i think i like most of the the build u put up ill see if theres a any feats that fit the char better and post them though there is a problem with the skills requierd there all cross-class skills so id have to dip into a class of cleric or bard to get them in time to be worth it
jstorrie 08-18-07, 10:56 PM	Summoner Domain is only really useful for low-level summoners (who need the extra duration on Summon Monster spells). By the time you qualify for Contemplative it's not worth the effort.
ornsjach 08-18-07, 11:29 PM	ah i see still it would be useless at that high lvl. theres the cross-class skill issue seeing that Alienist need 8 ranks in knowledge(the planes)which couldn't be acquired until lvl 13 unless i take a lvl of bard or cleric. then i could buy a skill lvl for 2 points per lvl and get in the PrC at lvl 7. oh and please exsplain how Empower Spell could help a summoner?
Iswald 08-19-07, 02:39 AM	oh and please exsplain how Empower Spell could help a summoner? Empower would increase the number of summoned creatures when you are summoning creatures below your highest level. Empowered summon monster III to summon a celestial bison would get you one creature (no random roll). Using the same spell to summon celestial riding dogs would net you (1d3)(1.5) riding dogs. Or, you could use it to summon (1d4+1)(1.5) celestial badgers. It doesn't affect the creatures' stat, damage, etc, only how many you get from casting the spell.
jstorrie 08-19-07, 03:53 AM	You have more Conjuration spells than just the Summons. Empower could apply to your cure spells, and also to Cometfall, a fantastic high-level blasting spell. You're right about the lack of Know: Planes–Ruathar can fix that. Keoland probably has some meta-orgs that offer it. There's also a regional feat that offers Knowledge class skills, isn't there?
ornsjach 08-19-07, 12:55 PM	To get the Ruathar PrC u need to be elf, half-elf, or have"may use influence with an Elven Organization/Community, AR" which in 2 years of play i have only seen once. as for the feat i don't know,and probably couldn't use it with out that issue of dragon
Iswald 08-19-07, 08:54 PM	I think it's the Well Read feat. But, as a summoner, you don't really have any extra feats to spend on it.
jstorrie 08-19-07, 09:41 PM	Sure you do. You could take CWI at 3, MMSF/Imbue at 9, Imp Init at 12, Empower at 13 and Leadership at 15. Pseudonatural Rhinoceroses are an awesome 'blast' spell, too. 4d6+24 per rhinoceros, and they have true strike so nearly always hit? 4d6+24 is about the same as 12d6, and it stays on the battlefield, and it goes up per spell level–12d6 for Summon VI, 24d6 for Summon VII, and 36d6 for Summon VIII. Those are hefty beatings. Rapid and Quicken are useless for a FS, though, now that I think about it. At the mid-levels, imbuing things with Silence is always a great way to disable casters. You can throw a lot of grapple-types at someone, or position a flyer to threaten them from overhead.
ornsjach 08-19-07, 11:59 PM	well ill see into it. still if ins not available for use which did should i take cleric with good and summoning domains or bard?
Hariman 08-20-07, 12:28 AM	Sure you do. You could take CWI at 3, MMSF/Imbue at 9, Imp Init at 12, Empower at 13 and Leadership at 15. Pseudonatural Rhinoceroses are an awesome 'blast' spell, too. 4d6+24 per rhinoceros, and they have true strike so nearly always hit? 4d6+24 is about the same as 12d6, and it stays on the battlefield, and it goes up per spell level–12d6 for Summon VI, 24d6 for Summon VII, and 36d6 for Summon VIII. Those are hefty beatings. Rapid and Quicken are useless for a FS, though, now that I think about it. At the mid-levels, imbuing things with Silence is always a great way to disable casters. You can throw a lot of grapple-types at someone, or position a flyer to threaten them from overhead. Rapid spell helps when you need a summon NOW instead of "at the start of your next turn". And I'd recommend Cleric over Favored Soul. You might not get as many spells, BUT you get much easier access to healing (It keeps both friends and summons around longer.) MUCH better spell access for crafting, Turning capabilities and I'm pretty sure you get better armor. (or the same armor.)
ornsjach 08-20-07, 12:37 AM	Rapid spell helps when you need a summon NOW instead of "at the start of your next turn". And I'd recommend Cleric over Favored Soul. You might not get as many spells, BUT you get much easier access to healing (It keeps both friends and summons around longer.) MUCH better spell access for crafting, Turning capabilities and I'm pretty sure you get better armor. (or the same armor.) yes but you take a -2 point hit to wisdom at the second lvl of Alienist besides i could always take spontaneous healing
Iswald 08-20-07, 01:18 AM	yes but you take a -2 point hit to wisdom at the second lvl of Alienist besides i could always take spontaneous healing Which is why a cleric would only take one level of alienist, as I suggested originally. ;) This would give you truestrike instead of smiting. Rapid metamagic combined with rapid spell would help spontaneous casters by allowing them to do rapid spells as a standard action instead of a full round one. However, it crossed my mind earlier, that if you really want oodles of summons, alienists have one extra summoning spell at their highest level. In addition, if you have access, take focused specialist [conjuration] as a first level wizard (alternative class feature, CM pg 34). This gives you an extra 2 slots for conjuration spells at the cost of one normal spell slot of each level. Your spells/day would be the same as a sorcerer.
ornsjach 08-20-07, 06:08 PM	ok heres what i have come up with human current scores are :Str12 dex14 con14 int10 wis10 cha15 1lvl of of bard, or cleric, (with summon and good domains) or wizard then 6lvls favored soul rest in Alienist
jstorrie 08-20-07, 09:16 PM	Not a very good idea. Why do you need a level of Cleric or Bard if your main class is Wizard, which already has all Knowledge skills? Don't give up a caster level.
ornsjach 08-20-07, 11:07 PM	main class is Favoured Soul was going to take 1 lvl of ether wizard, cleric, or bard for the skills
Iswald 08-21-07, 10:40 AM	One problem with using favored soul is the slow spell progression (same as with sorcerers). Generally, it's better not to multiclass into something that will cost you spell casting levels. It would be better if you could find a PrC that you could enter as a favored soul that would grant you access to the skills you need to join alienist.
ornsjach 08-21-07, 10:46 AM	I'll try to find one i can enter easily
Iswald 08-21-07, 11:20 AM	Church inquisitor, though you have to meet the special requirement. Some metaorgs offer access. You need 4 ranks of knowledge (religion). It's cross class. You can meet the requirements at 5th level. And take church inquisitor at 6th. It'll take a lot of skill points you may want to use elsewhere. Ruathar was already discussed. This brings up the second big problem with favored souls, it's pretty darn hard to get into any PrCs!
ornsjach 08-21-07, 01:23 PM	could some 1 post the Well Read feat i think thats the best route(unless i go half elf)seeing no meta org in keoland gives access to Church inquisitor
ankhwearer 08-21-07, 05:25 PM	Sure you do. You could take CWI at 3, MMSF/Imbue at 9, Imp Init at 12, Empower at 13 and Leadership at 15... I don't think his new character is going to get to 15th level (or even 12th level) in the time remaining in the campaign...
jstorrie 08-21-07, 09:20 PM	So? Nothing past MMSF/Imbue is really integral to a character like this–Augment Summoning and Alienist kick in far earlier.
ornsjach 08-21-07, 09:27 PM	Eh, true. But i might as well try to enjoy any time left with my build ideas while i can before thay cant be done in 4E becuse a lack of PrCs. Still if thay can make the system better(i dont know how, but lets hope) then I won't mind as much. Besides coming up with and work on the ideas is as much fun for me as is to playing them:)