Pious Templar of Kelanen [Archive] - Wizards Community

Pious Templar of Kelanen [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_metz_
07-19-07, 09:38 AM Hey guys, what do you think of this build, I wanted to make a melee character that was a bit different from the Dwarves/Half Orcs that are wandering around, and thought this may be interesting.

Here is the potential build:

Neutral Human Flan:

Str: 15 (All stat bumps here)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wisdom: 14 (So I don't need a wisdom amulet)
Cha: 8

I am a little unsure of the stats atm though...

1. Barbarian: Extra Rage, *Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bastard Sword.
2. Fighter1: *Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
3. Fighter2: *Power Attack, True believer
4. Fighter3:
5. Fighter4: Improved Bullrush
6. Pious Templar1: *Mettle, Shocktrooper
7. Exotic Weaponmaster1: *Uncanny Blow
8. Pious Templar2:
9. Pious Templar3: *Weapon Spec, Melee Weapon Mastery
10. Pious Templar4: *Improved Initiative
11. Occult Slayer1: *Weapon Bond
12. Occult Slayer2: Improved Sunder
13. Occult Slayer3:
14. Occult Slayer4:
15. Occult Slayer5: Combat Brute

What do you guys think?
Mommy was an Orc
07-19-07, 10:54 AM Seems perfectly fine - you might run into some weirdness with Bastard Sword only being technically being a martial weapon when wielded two-handed.

Why do you need a 14 Wisdom? You'll still get 2nd level spells with Pious Templar 4. Do you plan to use a shield? You could move up Improved Initiative and Power Attack if you're not.
rutrow424
07-19-07, 11:50 AM Seems perfectly fine - you might run into some weirdness with Bastard Sword only being technically being a martial weapon when wielded two-handed.

Why do you need a 14 Wisdom? You'll still get 2nd level spells with Pious Templar 4. Do you plan to use a shield? You could move up Improved Initiative and Power Attack if you're not.

He needs EWP to qualify for EWM, but he could delay it until 5th or 6th level in the build. I personally like having the 14 WIS for the bump to Will saves for the early levels and for the bonus 2nd level spell. It is also a point buy cost effiency decision - assuming no random inherent bounuses, he will max STR out at 18 at level 12 instead of raising it to 19 at 12. The offsetting loss to hit and damage for levels 1-3 and 8-11 is often acceptable. YMMV. OTOH, I may consider lowering DEX to 12 and raising STR to 16 and planning to wear full plate.
JamesMaissen
07-19-07, 12:39 PM Here is the potential build:

Neutral Human Flan:

Str: 15 (All stat bumps here)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wisdom: 14 (So I don't need a wisdom amulet)
Cha: 8

I am a little unsure of the stats atm though...

1. Barbarian: Extra Rage, *Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bastard Sword.
2. Fighter1: *Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
6. Pious Templar1: *Mettle, Improved Initiative
10. Pious Templar4: *Shocktrooper

What do you guys think?

Two things:

Stats: Why do you need the 10 INT? An 8 INT with Human should more than get you the skills you need for the PrCs. Are there other skills that you are interested in? This can let you start with a 16 STR which you will feel during the baby levels the most, then from 8-11 and most of all after 12th if you happen upon an inherent bump at some point.

Feats: Why put improved init ahead of shocktrooper? You are delaying the payoff (shocktrooper) for many levels after they payment (improved bull rush).

PrCs: Is Exotic Weaponsmaster for uncanny blow really worth it for you?

It costs you a feat early on. It also delays your other PrCs a level. (Trivially it eats up a few precious skill points).

When used two-handed you will only start to see an improvement to damage over a greatsword after your strength exceeds 18. At which point it is only +1 for every 4 points of strength over 18. So you're talking around 3 points at most here. Now take the feat for reckless rage and that alone effectively mitigates that damage (unless you can already power attack for full).

The only possible benefit would be using it one-handed. There is table variation on this (which I don't agree with, but c'est la vie) and an animated shield removes the need for it anyway.

-James
Genghis Cohen
07-19-07, 01:17 PM I think that its a solid build, but I see the potential for table variation with judges.

If you're using the Uncanny Blow trick when wielding a bastard sword with two hands, its because its an exotic weapon.

If you're using some of the benefits of being a Pious Templar of Kelanen, its because when you wield a bastard sword with two hands, its a martial weapon.

Can the use of a bastard sword with two hands be both an exotic weapon and a martial weapon at the same time? That's where the table variation might hit you.

You might want to consider making two small adjustments in the build; Change to Neutral Good, and change your worship to Mayaheine.
ShinAkuma2
07-19-07, 01:31 PM Stats: Why do you need the 10 INT? An 8 INT with Human should more than get you the skills you need for the PrCs.

It's possible he's just not interested in being yet another mentally challenged hero.
JamesMaissen
07-19-07, 06:14 PM It's possible he's just not interested in being yet another mentally challenged hero.

It doesn't make him much better by the jump from 8 to 10. Just because an 8 is a negative and a 10 is the 'base' doesn't make it any more special than any other value. Either way he's not all that bright, so if it's a concern then perhaps a 14 and combat expertise is in order.. In a point buy game it's always a question of trade-off, and with trade-offs you have to be sure of what you are buying.

If he wants the 10 INT that's great.. but a good many people decide for no reason that they don't 'want any negatives' for no other reason than it's a negative...

-James
mowaca
07-19-07, 07:50 PM Hey guys, what do you think of this build, I wanted to make a melee character that was a bit different from the Dwarves/Half Orcs that are wandering around, and thought this may be interesting.

Very nice build - I don't want to spoil your non-Dwarf idea but since I had a similar idea yesterday I thought I'd post it for comparison. My concept was good saves - he's +16, +9, +13 vs. spells when he gets Mettle, without items or feats. Not perfectly optimized, but different.

Race: Dwarf

Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wisdom: 12
Cha: 13 (All stat bumps here)

1. Ranger 1: Power Attack
2. Cleric 1: *Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword, *Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
3. Barbarian 1: Divine Might
4. Hexblade 1:
5. Hexblade 2: +Chr vs spells & spell like effects
6. Fighter 1: True believer, *Improved Unarmed Strike
7. Pious Templar1: *Mettle
8. Exotic Weaponmaster1: *Uncanny Blow
9. Pious Templar2: Stunning Fist
10. Exotic Weaponmaster2: *Stunning Blow
11. Pious Templar3: Weapon Spec (Bastard Sword)
12. Pious Templar4: Improved Bullrush, Shocktrooper
13. Pious Templar 5:
14. Pious Templar 6:
15. Pious Templar 7: Divine Fortune
ShinAkuma2
07-19-07, 08:25 PM It doesn't make him much better by the jump from 8 to 10. Just because an 8 is a negative and a 10 is the 'base' doesn't make it any more special than any other value.

Sure it does. Int 10 is average human Int. Int 8 is treading in special education waters.

Maybe he wants his character to be able to do simple arithmetic in his head. There's more to roleplaying than simple number crunching to achieve maximum stat point usage.
_metz_
07-19-07, 09:15 PM It doesn't make him much better by the jump from 8 to 10. Just because an 8 is a negative and a 10 is the 'base' doesn't make it any more special than any other value. Either way he's not all that bright, so if it's a concern then perhaps a 14 and combat expertise is in order.. In a point buy game it's always a question of trade-off, and with trade-offs you have to be sure of what you are buying.

If he wants the 10 INT that's great.. but a good many people decide for no reason that they don't 'want any negatives' for no other reason than it's a negative...

-James

lol, I REALLY struggle to make characters with less than 14 Int usually, 10 was as low as I was willing to go, I considered the +1 str vs the +2 int, and decided that the str 19 vs an extra 15 skill points didn't really do it for me. I also considered Cha 10, but changed my mind. (My Cleric has 14 int, my Rogue has 16, and my wizard has 20 lol. I just like smart characters...)

As for the Pious Templar Table Variation, the Exotic weapon master trick applies to the WEAPON. so how I use it shouldn't be a problem in that respect.

Weapon Focus is a Feat, and I will have it, and as for the Pious Templar Weapon Spec, thats a bonus feat as well. Feats don't say they only apply when used 'one handed' etc. Otherwise if you took Weapon Spec Urgosh, do you have to swing both ends to get the +2 damage?

The same applies to Dwarven Waraxes used two handed (are martial then) And everybody accepts that, so I don't see Bastard swords being different.

I don't foresee any issues there. Kelanan prefers the martial usage of the weapon, but his favoured weapon is still 'any sword' so I can't see DMs trying to pull me up on it.

As for the question on Improved Initiative I only just realised its a fighter bonus feat, consider it swapped in the build!
_metz_
07-19-07, 09:25 PM OTOH, I may consider lowering DEX to 12 and raising STR to 16 and planning to wear full plate.

I was thinking about that, but three words hit me.

Mithral heavy Plate.

Just sounded cool, and I won't have to buy Gloves of Dex, just concentrate on my Str, and Con. (The essential Idea of this character)

Also Run around with an Animated Shield, yes. But till level 3 probably use the sword one handed.
clannagh
07-19-07, 09:33 PM I don't foresee any issues there. Kelanan prefers the martial usage of the weapon, but his favoured weapon is still 'any sword' so I can't see DMs trying to pull me up on it.

Its actually Kelanen.

According to the deities document:

Favored Weapon(s): any martial sword (m)

Aside form Pious Templar issues, you should expect table variation on whether the cleric weapon focus actually works when you swing it one handed.

My personal experience with a Cleric of Kelanan was most GM's either allowed it, or were blissfully unaware of the rules issues. In the odd game however she lost the weapon focus.
_metz_
07-19-07, 09:52 PM Its actually Kelanen.

According to the deities document:

Favored Weapon(s): any martial sword (m)

I spelt it right in the thread title, so can be excused making the odd mistake methinks :)

Aside from Pious Templar issues, you should expect table variation on whether the cleric weapon focus actually works when you swing it one handed.

My personal experience with a Cleric of Kelanen was most GMs either allowed it, or were blissfully unaware of the rules issues. In the odd game however she lost the weapon focus.

I have taken Weapon Focus from the feat, rather than the war domain, so shouldn't encounter that problem fortunately.

The bastard Sword is an Exotic one handed weapon JUST like the Dwarven Waraxe. If the rule doesn't apply to it, then it shouldn't to the waraxe, so I don't see much TV, everyone seems ok with the axe, and the only difference is that dwarves get 'kinda' exotic weapon proficiency for free if they can wield it martially.

Other than that, they are essentially the same thing, I just chose to pay a feat for it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_metz_ 07-19-07, 09:38 AM	Hey guys, what do you think of this build, I wanted to make a melee character that was a bit different from the Dwarves/Half Orcs that are wandering around, and thought this may be interesting. Here is the potential build: Neutral Human Flan: Str: 15 (All stat bumps here) Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wisdom: 14 (So I don't need a wisdom amulet) Cha: 8 I am a little unsure of the stats atm though... 1. Barbarian: Extra Rage, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bastard Sword. 2. Fighter1: Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword 3. Fighter2: Power Attack, True believer 4. Fighter3: 5. Fighter4: Improved Bullrush 6. Pious Templar1: Mettle, Shocktrooper 7. Exotic Weaponmaster1: Uncanny Blow 8. Pious Templar2: 9. Pious Templar3: Weapon Spec, Melee Weapon Mastery 10. Pious Templar4: Improved Initiative 11. Occult Slayer1: Weapon Bond 12. Occult Slayer2: Improved Sunder 13. Occult Slayer3: 14. Occult Slayer4: 15. Occult Slayer5: Combat Brute What do you guys think?
Mommy was an Orc 07-19-07, 10:54 AM	Seems perfectly fine - you might run into some weirdness with Bastard Sword only being technically being a martial weapon when wielded two-handed. Why do you need a 14 Wisdom? You'll still get 2nd level spells with Pious Templar 4. Do you plan to use a shield? You could move up Improved Initiative and Power Attack if you're not.
rutrow424 07-19-07, 11:50 AM	Seems perfectly fine - you might run into some weirdness with Bastard Sword only being technically being a martial weapon when wielded two-handed. Why do you need a 14 Wisdom? You'll still get 2nd level spells with Pious Templar 4. Do you plan to use a shield? You could move up Improved Initiative and Power Attack if you're not. He needs EWP to qualify for EWM, but he could delay it until 5th or 6th level in the build. I personally like having the 14 WIS for the bump to Will saves for the early levels and for the bonus 2nd level spell. It is also a point buy cost effiency decision - assuming no random inherent bounuses, he will max STR out at 18 at level 12 instead of raising it to 19 at 12. The offsetting loss to hit and damage for levels 1-3 and 8-11 is often acceptable. YMMV. OTOH, I may consider lowering DEX to 12 and raising STR to 16 and planning to wear full plate.
JamesMaissen 07-19-07, 12:39 PM	Here is the potential build: Neutral Human Flan: Str: 15 (All stat bumps here) Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wisdom: 14 (So I don't need a wisdom amulet) Cha: 8 I am a little unsure of the stats atm though... 1. Barbarian: Extra Rage, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bastard Sword. 2. Fighter1: Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword 6. Pious Templar1: Mettle, Improved Initiative 10. Pious Templar4: Shocktrooper What do you guys think? Two things: Stats: Why do you need the 10 INT? An 8 INT with Human should more than get you the skills you need for the PrCs. Are there other skills that you are interested in? This can let you start with a 16 STR which you will feel during the baby levels the most, then from 8-11 and most of all after 12th if you happen upon an inherent bump at some point. Feats: Why put improved init ahead of shocktrooper? You are delaying the payoff (shocktrooper) for many levels after they payment (improved bull rush). PrCs: Is Exotic Weaponsmaster for uncanny blow really worth it for you? It costs you a feat early on. It also delays your other PrCs a level. (Trivially it eats up a few precious skill points). When used two-handed you will only start to see an improvement to damage over a greatsword after your strength exceeds 18. At which point it is only +1 for every 4 points of strength over 18. So you're talking around 3 points at most here. Now take the feat for reckless rage and that alone effectively mitigates that damage (unless you can already power attack for full). The only possible benefit would be using it one-handed. There is table variation on this (which I don't agree with, but c'est la vie) and an animated shield removes the need for it anyway. -James
Genghis Cohen 07-19-07, 01:17 PM	I think that its a solid build, but I see the potential for table variation with judges. If you're using the Uncanny Blow trick when wielding a bastard sword with two hands, its because its an exotic weapon. If you're using some of the benefits of being a Pious Templar of Kelanen, its because when you wield a bastard sword with two hands, its a martial weapon. Can the use of a bastard sword with two hands be both an exotic weapon and a martial weapon at the same time? That's where the table variation might hit you. You might want to consider making two small adjustments in the build; Change to Neutral Good, and change your worship to Mayaheine.
ShinAkuma2 07-19-07, 01:31 PM	Stats: Why do you need the 10 INT? An 8 INT with Human should more than get you the skills you need for the PrCs. It's possible he's just not interested in being yet another mentally challenged hero.
JamesMaissen 07-19-07, 06:14 PM	It's possible he's just not interested in being yet another mentally challenged hero. It doesn't make him much better by the jump from 8 to 10. Just because an 8 is a negative and a 10 is the 'base' doesn't make it any more special than any other value. Either way he's not all that bright, so if it's a concern then perhaps a 14 and combat expertise is in order.. In a point buy game it's always a question of trade-off, and with trade-offs you have to be sure of what you are buying. If he wants the 10 INT that's great.. but a good many people decide for no reason that they don't 'want any negatives' for no other reason than it's a negative... -James
mowaca 07-19-07, 07:50 PM	Hey guys, what do you think of this build, I wanted to make a melee character that was a bit different from the Dwarves/Half Orcs that are wandering around, and thought this may be interesting. Very nice build - I don't want to spoil your non-Dwarf idea but since I had a similar idea yesterday I thought I'd post it for comparison. My concept was good saves - he's +16, +9, +13 vs. spells when he gets Mettle, without items or feats. Not perfectly optimized, but different. Race: Dwarf Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wisdom: 12 Cha: 13 (All stat bumps here) 1. Ranger 1: Power Attack 2. Cleric 1: Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword, Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword 3. Barbarian 1: Divine Might 4. Hexblade 1: 5. Hexblade 2: +Chr vs spells & spell like effects 6. Fighter 1: True believer, Improved Unarmed Strike 7. Pious Templar1: Mettle 8. Exotic Weaponmaster1: Uncanny Blow 9. Pious Templar2: Stunning Fist 10. Exotic Weaponmaster2: Stunning Blow 11. Pious Templar3: Weapon Spec (Bastard Sword) 12. Pious Templar4: Improved Bullrush, Shocktrooper 13. Pious Templar 5: 14. Pious Templar 6: 15. Pious Templar 7: Divine Fortune
ShinAkuma2 07-19-07, 08:25 PM	It doesn't make him much better by the jump from 8 to 10. Just because an 8 is a negative and a 10 is the 'base' doesn't make it any more special than any other value. Sure it does. Int 10 is average human Int. Int 8 is treading in special education waters. Maybe he wants his character to be able to do simple arithmetic in his head. There's more to roleplaying than simple number crunching to achieve maximum stat point usage.
_metz_ 07-19-07, 09:15 PM	It doesn't make him much better by the jump from 8 to 10. Just because an 8 is a negative and a 10 is the 'base' doesn't make it any more special than any other value. Either way he's not all that bright, so if it's a concern then perhaps a 14 and combat expertise is in order.. In a point buy game it's always a question of trade-off, and with trade-offs you have to be sure of what you are buying. If he wants the 10 INT that's great.. but a good many people decide for no reason that they don't 'want any negatives' for no other reason than it's a negative... -James lol, I REALLY struggle to make characters with less than 14 Int usually, 10 was as low as I was willing to go, I considered the +1 str vs the +2 int, and decided that the str 19 vs an extra 15 skill points didn't really do it for me. I also considered Cha 10, but changed my mind. (My Cleric has 14 int, my Rogue has 16, and my wizard has 20 lol. I just like smart characters...) As for the Pious Templar Table Variation, the Exotic weapon master trick applies to the WEAPON. so how I use it shouldn't be a problem in that respect. Weapon Focus is a Feat, and I will have it, and as for the Pious Templar Weapon Spec, thats a bonus feat as well. Feats don't say they only apply when used 'one handed' etc. Otherwise if you took Weapon Spec Urgosh, do you have to swing both ends to get the +2 damage? The same applies to Dwarven Waraxes used two handed (are martial then) And everybody accepts that, so I don't see Bastard swords being different. I don't foresee any issues there. Kelanan prefers the martial usage of the weapon, but his favoured weapon is still 'any sword' so I can't see DMs trying to pull me up on it. As for the question on Improved Initiative I only just realised its a fighter bonus feat, consider it swapped in the build!
_metz_ 07-19-07, 09:25 PM	OTOH, I may consider lowering DEX to 12 and raising STR to 16 and planning to wear full plate. I was thinking about that, but three words hit me. Mithral heavy Plate. Just sounded cool, and I won't have to buy Gloves of Dex, just concentrate on my Str, and Con. (The essential Idea of this character) Also Run around with an Animated Shield, yes. But till level 3 probably use the sword one handed.
clannagh 07-19-07, 09:33 PM	I don't foresee any issues there. Kelanan prefers the martial usage of the weapon, but his favoured weapon is still 'any sword' so I can't see DMs trying to pull me up on it. Its actually Kelanen. According to the deities document: Favored Weapon(s): any martial sword (m) Aside form Pious Templar issues, you should expect table variation on whether the cleric weapon focus actually works when you swing it one handed. My personal experience with a Cleric of Kelanan was most GM's either allowed it, or were blissfully unaware of the rules issues. In the odd game however she lost the weapon focus.
_metz_ 07-19-07, 09:52 PM	Its actually Kelanen. According to the deities document: Favored Weapon(s): any martial sword (m) I spelt it right in the thread title, so can be excused making the odd mistake methinks :) Aside from Pious Templar issues, you should expect table variation on whether the cleric weapon focus actually works when you swing it one handed. My personal experience with a Cleric of Kelanen was most GMs either allowed it, or were blissfully unaware of the rules issues. In the odd game however she lost the weapon focus. I have taken Weapon Focus from the feat, rather than the war domain, so shouldn't encounter that problem fortunately. The bastard Sword is an Exotic one handed weapon JUST like the Dwarven Waraxe. If the rule doesn't apply to it, then it shouldn't to the waraxe, so I don't see much TV, everyone seems ok with the axe, and the only difference is that dwarves get 'kinda' exotic weapon proficiency for free if they can wield it martially. Other than that, they are essentially the same thing, I just chose to pay a feat for it.