Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Demoyn 07-13-07, 04:04 PM	Ok... let's try one more time. I'm currently looking at a human wizard. He won't be specialized, but I would like him to be very effective in all situations. Currently his stats are: Str 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 18 Wis 8 Cha 8 I could also turn him into a gray elf (and get access to generalist wizard), but I don't want to be the archetypal 8 strength wizard. What are your thoughts? I'm mostly looking for feat choices (maybe skill choices too... should I take decipher script?), but any ideas are acceptable, since I will change anything if the right argument is made.
Banor 07-13-07, 04:42 PM	As far as ability score go i'd suggest dropping your INT to 17, that will allow you to put up 14 CON and a +1 somewhere else. With all your ability score boost in INT you will end up at the same bonus but you will have a better CON Feat wise i'd say Craft Wonderous item gonna be a must a L3 (gogo PoP :)). Empower spell for the time where you need some damage might be good and sculpt spell for time you need to do some control. Abuse of scribe scroll especially at low levels, that will give you a lot of versatility. Chaining spell can be put at good use, for both offense and buffs. For PrC if you can get Access to Mage Of the Arcane Order (CA) can help a lot, giving you the possibility to leave slot open for a spell that you might not even know :) Drawback is that annoying Cooperative spell but its not too bad.
Demoyn 07-13-07, 06:17 PM	I don't do odd stats (except 15s in primary attributes like str for fighter or wis for cleric). I feel that the 4 levels of +1 DC (or whatever benefit you get for each stat) is worth the loss.
bitznarf 07-13-07, 06:25 PM	Over the course of your career, it isn't a net loss though. At levels 4-7 and 12-15 you will have exactly the same bonus, and from 1-15 your CON will be higher.
awroe 07-14-07, 12:31 PM	Over the course of your career, it isn't a net loss though. At levels 4-7 and 12-15 you will have exactly the same bonus, and from 1-15 your CON will be higher. Or looking from the other perspective, at leves 1-3 and levels 8-11 your DC will be one lower, but you will have 1 fewer hp per level and one less fort save. 12 CON isn't disastrous - it's the same as your typical Grey Elf wizard, but it does mean you have 20% fewer HP than your typical Human wizard.
Dr.Cornelius 07-15-07, 07:11 AM	What spells are you thinking of? The problem with trying to be a generalist is that the character may end up unfocused and not very strong at anything. I highly recommend focusing on a few key strengths in addition to breadth. Most offensive spells fall into a few broad classifications: rays/orbs which require a ranged touch attack, touch spells which require a melee touch attack and targeted or area effects which allow a saving throw. As a general rule it is better to concentrate on one of these types of attacks. For example, Ray / Orb Specialist Race: Human Int: 16 (saving throws not as important) Dex: 14 (for ranged touch attacks) Con: 14 (HP important!) Feats: Precise Shot (ranged attack into melee w/o -4 penalty) Spells: 1: Ray of Enfeeblement, Orb of Acid/Sound (lesser) 2: Scorching Ray 3: Ray of Exhaustion 4: Enervation, Orb of Force Save-or-Hosed Specialist Race: Human or Grey Elf Int: 18-20 (max out save DCs) Dex: 10-12 (not using ranged touch attacks) Con: 14 Feats: Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus(Conjuration or Enchantment) Spells: 1: Grease, Sleep, Charm Person, Color Spray, Cause Fear 2: Glitterdust, Tahsa's Hideous Laughter, Scare, Web 3: Bands of Steel, Stinking Cloud, Slow 4: Evard's Black Tentacles, Phantasmal Killer, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere 5: Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Magic Jar Blaster Int: 16-18 Dex: 12-14 Con: 14 Feats: Empower, Metamagic School Focus (Evocation), Energy Substitution Spells: 1: Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Hail of Stone 2: Scorching Ray, Blast of Force, Fireburst 3: Fireball, Lightning Bolt 4: Orb of Force, Blast of Flame 5: Cone of Cold On top of these basic types, there are a number of useful spells that nearly every Wizard should strongly consider taking: Battlefield Control 1: Grease, Obscuring Mist 2: Fog Cloud, Web 4: Evard's Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Wall of Stone Utility Spells 1: Protection from Evil, Hold Portal, Unseen Servant, Feather Fall 2: Minor Image, Rope Trick 3: Anticipate Teleportation, Dispel Magic 4: Dimension Door Buffs 1: Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon 2: Invisibility, False Life 3: Invisibility Sphere, Fly, Haste 4: Greater Invisibility 5: Mass Fly Finally - I strongly recommend Specialist Wizard over a Generalist. - The extra spell at each level is very, very useful - Specialist Wizard qualifies for the feat Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage, reduce a metamagic level bump buy one level 3/day) Specialist Conjurer, Evoker and Transmuter are all good choices. Do not be tempted to go Specialist Diviner - the Divination spells are not that strong. Think twice before dropping the Abjuration school - Dispel Magic is the only key spell, but it is really important. Most Specialists should drop Enchantment - it has the fewest key spells. Evocation, Illusion and Necromancy are good choices for the second banned school. Banning Evocation gives up cool direct damage spells like Magic Missile, Fireball and Cone of Cold but the Conjuration school makes up for it with some direct damage. Banning Illusion gives up Illusions and more importantly Invisibility but not much else. Banning Necromancy gives up Ray of Enfeeblement, False Life and Blindness/Deafness but not much else. As to skills, most Wizards should max out Concentration and Spellcraft. It is also a good practice to put one skill point in every knowledge skill, since these skills require you to have at least one rank in order to get a roll. The metamagic feats are useful for some spellcasters, especially when combined with Metamagic School Focus. Look at Empower, Energy Substitution, Sculpt, Quicken and Silent. It is a challenge to plan out a character many levels in advance, but the work pays off in the long run. Whatever you do, pick the kind of character you want to play and have fun with it.
_metz_ 07-15-07, 07:57 AM	Banning Necromancy gives up Ray of Enfeeblement, False Life and Blindness/Deafness but not much else. A very important Point I might add: DON'T ban necromancy if you only have 12 con unless you REALLY have to. Empowered False life (yay metamagic rods if you get one) is very useful.
Demoyn 07-16-07, 01:29 AM	You guys are really serious about your con, aren't you? At level 5, with my 12 con, I'll have 26 hp. That's pretty good for a level 5 wizard. I'm not so much worried about the four hp I'll lose out before level 5 (12 con, toad familiar, elf wizard 3rd level racial sub).
Dr.Cornelius 07-16-07, 01:49 AM	OK - the posters statements about 14 Con are generally applicable, but perhaps not in this case. Not everyone has access to the Elf sub levels.
Genghis Cohen 07-16-07, 08:55 AM	Finally - I strongly recommend Specialist Wizard over a Generalist.I strongly recommend the generalist route. This is a "memorize more spells" versus "access to more spells" issue. At high levels, you don't need to cast several spells per combat after initiative is rolled. As I see it, specialist wizards are stronger at low levels and generalist wizards are stronger at high levels.
Demoyn 07-16-07, 10:21 AM	OK - the posters statements about 14 Con are generally applicable, but perhaps not in this case. Not everyone has access to the Elf sub levels. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I've decided on gray elf wizard with: Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 8 Cha 8 I've chosen CWI and Austitagious whatever (feat from CM that allows you to instantly cast a spell from an unmemorized slot as full-round action). I'd still like feat ideas, since I can always retrain if these aren't good feats. I'd also like some spell ideas. Even after my second mod I've gotten an ability to choose two NONC spells to scribe (open access library). One will most definitely be baleful transposition, but what about the other? I'd prefer it be a first or second level spell, but any will work (I can spend the favor once I get the level to cast it). Nothing over 3rd if possible.
Dr.Cornelius 07-16-07, 12:20 PM	I strongly recommend the generalist route. This is a "memorize more spells" versus "access to more spells" issue. At high levels, you don't need to cast several spells per combat after initiative is rolled. As I see it, specialist wizards are stronger at low levels and generalist wizards are stronger at high levels.Specialists do not give up much spell selection by dropping two schools - for example Enchantment and Necromancy or Evocation. Most significant effects in these two schools are replicated by other schools or divine spells. And the benefit it not level dependent - even an extra spell of the highest level you can cast is a big deal. This may be even more true at higher levels where the spells get stronger faster. In any event, go with the Elf Generalist sub level if you have access - it has most of the benefits of Specialist and none of the drawbacks.
Genghis Cohen 07-16-07, 01:04 PM	Specialists do not give up much spell selection by dropping two schools - for example Enchantment and Necromancy or Evocation. Most significant effects in these two schools are replicated by other schools or divine spells.I agree that Enchantment is a low utility school. Necromancy has Ray of Enfeeblement and False Life. I'd be reluctant to give those up. Evocation has Wall of Force, and area of effect damage spells. I recently played with Drezden's archmage. I was impressed with how his archmage is able to use a fireball in a way that can not be replicated by spells from other schools. And the benefit it not level dependent - even an extra spell of the highest level you can cast is a big deal. This may be even more true at higher levels where the spells get stronger faster.I have a very different view. I believe that its more important to have access to all of the needed spells at high level.In any event, go with the Elf Generalist sub level if you have access - it has most of the benefits of Specialist and none of the drawbacks.I already plan on it. I just need access.
Demoyn 07-16-07, 01:16 PM	In the Bandit Kingdoms, there's a meta-org that gives access to elf wizard substitution. You have to be level 5 to meet the prereqs (4 ranks in survival, among other things) if you're a straight wizard, but that's what retraining is for!
Frumpkis 07-16-07, 03:52 PM	Do not be tempted to go Specialist Diviner - the Divination spells are not that strong. True, but you only have to ban 1 school. I see Diviners as being halfway between other specialist wizards and generalists. Most Specialists should drop Enchantment - it has the fewest key spells. I'd disagree on this one. Feeblemind is one awesome spell to have (and to a lesser extent, Tasha's Hideous Laughter - especially if you have a way to up the save DC, like with Heighten Spell or Fatespinner levels). My high-level primary PC is a bard/sublime chord/fatespinner. There are also two high-level specialist wizards in my area that I often adventure with - one an Evoker, the other a Transmuter - and neither of them banned Enchantment. The 2 wizzies will usually memorize at least 1 slot of Feeblemind, and all 3 of our PCs have made great use of it on a regular basis. Confusion is also a great spell to have. It can be devastating against mounted combatants; even if the riders make the save, the horses will often fail. I've seriously nerfed some mounted combats by making the poor horsies run away, and forcing the riders to dismount (oops, so much for your charging lance tactic :D)
rutrow424 07-16-07, 03:58 PM	I have a very different view. I believe that its more important to have access to all of the needed spells at high level. I would say that the specialist/generalist debate really comes down to play style. I would much rather have the amp up in power from levels 1-7 that comes from the extra spells than have the ability to cast any spell I want from any school at the higher levels. The former is always in effect, the latter requires that I pick the right spells (from a bigger selection). Certain abilities or PrC's may help with that problem, but I much prefer the ability to cast 1-2 more of my best spells than the possibility of having the "perfect" spell or having all of the "needed" spells available to me. The elf sub level is a strong meshing of the two that is probably a no-brainer for almost any wizard that has it available.
rutrow424 07-16-07, 04:12 PM	There are also two high-level specialist wizards in my area that I often adventure with - one an Evoker, the other a Transmuter - and neither of them banned Enchantment. My wizard gish build banned enchantment and conjuration, specialized in necromancy. I have been mildly criticized for both choices at various times (no glitterdust/mage armor; no heroism or sleep), but using mostly verbal spells or absorbing the 10-20% ASF worked just fine. If you ban a school there will always be spells you could have used, I just picture those times as if I hadn't memorized the "right" spell. A wizard will always risk memo'ing spells that end up being either wasted or not optimal, or not memo'ing the "perfect" spell. A wizard's flexibility advantage over a sorcerer is mostly lost once the day's spells are picked; the "open slot" option and MotAO are ways to regain that advantage, but are imperfect at best. I agree that divination specialty is a great middle of the road option, especially for gish or MT builds that can burn the "unused" spells via arcane strike or cover the lost domain through the divine spell list.
Dr.Cornelius 07-17-07, 12:19 AM	I believe that its more important to have access to all of the needed spells at high level.I already plan on it. Having access to the key spells does not help if you don't have the slots to cast them. I am basing my statement a key assumption: The effectiveness of the best spells at each level increases rapidly (often geometrically) with level. 3rd level spells are much more effective than 2nd level. 4th level spells are much more effective than 3rd. While not strictly true, in general a casters "big guns" tend to be the highest level spells he can cast. At odd levels a Wizard has 1 spell slot at the highest level he can cast plus one bonus slot for Int score. IMHO adding a 3rd slot at the highest level is more valuable than having a few additional key spells available. You cited Ray of Enfeeblement, False Life, Wall of Force, Fireball and other AOE spells as examples. No doubt, these are all top tier. But there are reasonably good substitutes for all of these spells. Now certain critical spells, like Dispel Magic and even Anticipate Teleportation have no substitute and that is why I strongly discourage prohibiting Abjuration.
Dr.Cornelius 07-17-07, 12:38 AM	I'd disagree on this one. Feeblemind is one awesome spell to have (and to a lesser extent, Tasha's Hideous Laughter - especially if you have a way to up the save DC, like with Heighten Spell or Fatespinner levels). Confusion is also a great spell to have...These are all Save-or-be-Hosed spells. Yes, they are strong spells - but there are plenty of spells from other schools that shut down opponents on a failed save. A Wizard or Enchanter with starting with 18-20+ Int and Spell Focus / Greater SF(Enchantment) to push up DC's is a strong choice. On the other hand, casters with only 16 starting Int and no SF/GSF have as good or better choices for spells with saving throws.
Frumpkis 07-17-07, 02:23 AM	These are all Save-or-be-Hosed spells. Yes, they are strong spells - but there are plenty of spells from other schools that shut down opponents on a failed save. A Wizard or Enchanter with starting with 18-20+ Int and Spell Focus / Greater SF(Enchantment) to push up DC's is a strong choice. On the other hand, casters with only 16 starting Int and no SF/GSF have as good or better choices for spells with saving throws. There isn't any spell that shuts down arcane casters as effectively as Feeblemind (to my knowledge, at any rate; there may be stuff out of Spell Compendium that I'm not aware of). And, as we all know, arcane casters can often be the most dangerous opponents. Direct damage spells aren't guaranteed to kill a caster in one shot. Evard's Black Tentacles can be D-Doored out of. Silence is only effective when you've got the caster penned into a small enclosed area where they can't walk out of the Silence (and most of the time, you'll want to cast an area Silence as opposed to a targetted Silence). Etc etc. You're right, Feeblemind only works if the caster fails his save, so you'll want to have a fairly high save DC. However, the -4 penalty on the save that arcane casters take makes the spell a fairly viable option to use against them (and single-classed arcane casters actually don't have that good Will saves, as Wisdom is usually a dump stat for them. It's only the arcanes that branch off into multiple caster PrC's that'll end up with the good Will saves). As for Confusion, it's an area effect spell. It's a bit less crucial to have high save DCs for AE spells; if you cast an AE spell on 4 guys, for example, odds are the DM will roll poorly for at least 1-2 of them. Yes, Enchantment spells work best in builds that focus on achieving high save DCs, such as the "save-or-be-hosed specialist". However, both the spells I mentioned above have mitigating factors that make them strong, valid choices even on builds with lower save DCs. Feeblemind alone is a powerful enough spell that I'd think carefully before banning Enchantment on a specialist wizard.
jstorrie 07-17-07, 03:04 AM	Unluck is a good save-or-be-hosed spell... and it's divination, isn't it?
Dr.Cornelius 07-17-07, 07:13 AM	Your point is well taken with respect to Feeblemind. No doubt it is one of the most effective spells against spellcasting creatures, which tend to be very dangerous.
awroe 07-17-07, 01:40 PM	Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I've decided on gray elf wizard with: Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 8 Cha 8 I've chosen CWI and Austitagious whatever (feat from CM that allows you to instantly cast a spell from an unmemorized slot as full-round action). I'd still like feat ideas, since I can always retrain if these aren't good feats. I'd also like some spell ideas. Even after my second mod I've gotten an ability to choose two NONC spells to scribe (open access library). One will most definitely be baleful transposition, but what about the other? I'd prefer it be a first or second level spell, but any will work (I can spend the favor once I get the level to cast it). Nothing over 3rd if possible. First, I'd choose something other than CWI at first level, as you need Caster Level 3 to take it, though since as a Grey Elf you only get one feat at first level, this isn't a problem - take just Alacritous Cogitation. Many wizards take a Metamagic feat at 1st, even if they can't use it, so as to take Sculpt Spell at 3rd for Sculpted Grease. I would check the AR favour hasn't been errata'd - I was under the impression that ARs now have to list choices for access rather than giving any access (if it says any Open Access, it is only spells that are Open, not those that are 'NONC').
Mattastrophic 07-17-07, 02:02 PM	You're more likely to get Baleful Polymorph to work than Feeblemind. Also, you'll be changing your tune once you run into Spell Turning. -Matt
Demoyn 07-17-07, 02:16 PM	First, I'd choose something other than CWI at first level, as you need Caster Level 3 to take it, though since as a Grey Elf you only get one feat at first level, this isn't a problem - take just Alacritous Cogitation. That's what I did, I just didn't list them in order. I would check the AR favour hasn't been errata'd - I was under the impression that ARs now have to list choices for access rather than giving any access (if it says any Open Access, it is only spells that are Open, not those that are 'NONC'). This is apparently true. The back of the module said "open access", but when I got the AR last night (DM didn't have them on hand at the game), I found that my spell choices were limited. The bad news is that it didn't have the access I wanted (baleful transposition), but it had the next best thing (benign transposition).
Drezden 07-17-07, 02:46 PM	The Elf sub. choice is the obvious one if you get access. Barring that, I would go Diviner and then just pick one school that you don't think you will cast from. My 15th level Archmage is a diviner with Enchantment banned. I only made this choice at the 2nd conversion he went through. I noticed that I had not cast an enchanment spell in 20+ mods, so why not give up something I wasn't using to gain an extra spell slot a day. Divination spells are quite useful at high levels. See invisibility is a must have; my archmage keeps it up all day. Arcane Sight is nice to spot magical traps and effects. Assay Resistance is awesome, but you need access. If you have the Quicken Feat, Quicken True Strike is nice for the high touch AC targets (e.g. dreadwraiths). True Seeing is an awesome spell that can crack many, many situations at high APLs. I would not ban Evocation. Besides the damaging spells, Wall of Force and Contingency are 2 of the best spells in the game and can't be replaced very easily. But your choice of which school to ban should be more about what spells (and schools) you use and which you don't. Of course this is also a forward-looking process - you need to look at the higher level spell lists and take that into consideration. I think Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy and Abjuration are all very bannable. I would not ban the other schools. Daren
Mattastrophic 07-17-07, 03:45 PM	I've also been kicking around using Analyze Dweomer more often, especially if I can put it up before combat starts. It would let me tear six levels off a Spell Turning as a free action, instead of having to burn a Distract Assailant just to find out if it's up. And next round, Spell Turning's gone as another free action. It also acts as a super-Detect Magic, letting me see exactly which defensive buffs are up, thus guiding the rest of my turn from there. "So he's got Protection from Electricity up? That changes things..." It's also useful for identifying a bunch of magic items on the spot. -Matt
Mattastrophic 07-17-07, 05:03 PM	On specialization, I will simply say this: The worst Wizards I have ever seen were specialists. The best Wizards I have ever seen were generalists. 'nuff said. -Matt
Banor 07-17-07, 05:06 PM	On specialization, I will simply say this: The worst Wizards I have ever seen were specialists. The best Wizards I have ever seen were generalists. 'nuff said. -Matt One time I saw a guy rolling 5 natural 1 in a row. He was playing a swashbuckler. Therefore all swashbuckler are unlucky
CdrcJsn 07-18-07, 03:09 AM	A one time event used to support a generalization is a poor idea. A general trend noticed between build and playstyles observed over years of play might have more substance. He's not saying that those who play specialized wizards are automatically bad players, just that the worst players he's played with were specialized wizards. I don't know if that's true myself, since I've never really paid attention to such things. Thinking back over the builds of some local people, some of the best players (in terms of both tactics and role playing) play specialist wizards. Though come to think of it, almost all of those play Diviners. However, the two worst wizard players I've played with are both Evocation specialists...so he might have a point.
jimmy_dowdall 07-18-07, 04:05 AM	the worst type of caster is the one who does not know their spells, it does not matter if they are specialist or genearlist, if you d'ont know what the spells you have can do and have to hmm and haa for 5 mins before to make a decision you are a bad caster, also knowing your spells lets you what to cast when this applies to both arcane and divine casters.
Banor 07-18-07, 06:47 AM	the worst type of caster is the one who does not know their spells, it does not matter if they are specialist or genearlist, if you d'ont know what the spells you have can do and have to hmm and haa for 5 mins before to make a decision you are a bad caster, also knowing your spells lets you what to cast when this applies to both arcane and divine casters. Exactly you hit right on the spot
Mattastrophic 07-18-07, 11:11 AM	Though come to think of it, almost all of those play Diviners. Now Divination banning Enchantment, I'll go so far as saying that I could consider that as still a generalist, considering what relatively little they lose. Those crazy Evokers who take Spell Focus AND Greater Spell Focus and just shrug their shoulders at the first sign of a Golem, those are the types I'm referring to. -Matt
jimmy_dowdall 07-18-07, 11:38 AM	my primary is an evoker and he works great, as i pick buffs and debuffs from my normal selection and get to carry at least one bang spell per level to lay in some personal hurt but even though i'm evoker i focus on improving my comrades performance before bring out the big guns, it works for us mostly p.s i always carry a couple of lesser orb spells and an orb of force to deal with those pesky golem and a power attacking fighter helps too.
Genghis Cohen 07-18-07, 12:36 PM	my primary is an evoker and he works great, as i pick buffs and debuffs from my normal selection and get to carry at least one bang spell per level to lay in some personal hurt but even though i'm evoker i focus on improving my comrades performance before bring out the big guns, it works for us mostly p.s i always carry a couple of lesser orb spells and an orb of force to deal with those pesky golem and a power attacking fighter helps too.What schools did you dump?
jimmy_dowdall 07-18-07, 12:58 PM	nerco and enchant/charm playing a dwarf my view is necromancy is bad and so is messing around with peoples heads silly elf magic that:P
Dr.Cornelius 07-19-07, 03:00 AM	Is your Evoker playing Metamagic? Metamagic School Focus and Empower is a nice combo. Retributive Spell w/ Evocation is not bad also.
jimmy_dowdall 07-19-07, 04:04 PM	have not started on the meta magicfeats going to take the nxt two levels in evoker so at 12 i get two feats, quicken and empower and let the good times role,:cool:
UMiskatonic 07-21-07, 04:25 PM	He's not saying that those who play specialized wizards are automatically bad players, just that the worst players he's played with were specialized wizards. I've seen this happen as well. Usually, it's part of a larger problem: A player SO in love with a character concept that they can't tell when it's not working. "I'm going to be a fire wizard" is a great concept. However, you can't fireball devils effectively, and hitting them with a scorching ray isn't good enough for plan B (I've seen this...) So, what will you do when bad guys are fireproof? Let the other party members take care of it is the response I see the most often, which really annoys me. The over-committed concept idea also happens with mounted characters, archers, charging barbarians, and bards. Common problem. Too bad, really.