Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arkrite 05-22-07, 02:23 AM	Hey, Struggling my way up the ranks as a Paladin and I've noticed, much to my dismay, that the only prestige classes I can find which don't prevent me from continuing with Paladin (and allow me to continue gaining the meager benefits of being a Paladin) seem to be focused completely on mounted combat. I'm not big on the mounted combat classes. I know, I know, they're probably the best choice considering I get the special mount... I was wondering if you guys could suggest some decent PrC that work well with the Paladin. Thanks.
bitznarf 05-22-07, 02:28 AM	Have you looked at Grey Guard?
CdrcJsn 05-22-07, 02:31 AM	Single classed paladin is pretty much good all on its own and you don't really need to get a PrC. In fact, many of the classic paladin abilities would suffer if you take another class (smite, spells, lay on hands). Just concentrate on picking the right feats for your playstyle. Power Attack is pretty much a given. Look at the various divine feats since Paladins don't really use their turning ability much against undead. Cedric
Wraith235 05-22-07, 03:34 AM	Shadowbane inquisitor Rog pal is a good one
Arkrite 05-22-07, 03:53 AM	Is shadowbane Inq even available? I didn't see it on the list of open prestiges... Of course I have been known to miss things right under my nose...
Wraith235 05-22-07, 04:08 AM	well what region are you in .... its not Open ... BUT its not Closed ... if you go thru your regions meta orgs it may be available... I know of 2 that its available in .... Pale ... and one of the Urnst's (County I think) but thats as far as I;ve looked
Arkrite 05-22-07, 04:19 AM	Zief. And there's not much for options when it comes to Zief meta orgs at this point.
DerekSTheRed 05-22-07, 09:04 AM	The BK meta-org Brotherhood of the Sundered Axe allows access to both shadowbanes. You have to have a home region of BK or Sheildlands. Also, have you considered Pious Templar? Derek
Evanta 05-22-07, 12:08 PM	Pious Templar and Gray Guard are the better options for PrCing. Cavalier and Wildrider for calvary types are good. Also need to see what good PrCs are there in Complete Champion, heard that Shadowstriker is a decent pally PrC too. IMHO I don't think that single-classed pally is really that good, the only reason to take it above 5-6th level is the mount. But that's just the powergamer speaking in me.
kenobi65 05-22-07, 02:04 PM	I'd originally planned on multiclassing my paladin of Heironeous into Shining Blade. But, I went into Pious Templar instead; even if you can't freely go back and forth with Paladin, it builds nicely (smite builds on your paladin smites, the free Weapon Specialization lets you get Melee Weapon Mastery, and Mettle is just too good).
jstorrie 05-22-07, 02:10 PM	You can get access to Shadowbane Inquisitor in Zeif through the church of Azor'Alq. If you're a high-Cha paladin, Outcast Champion is very good. Bard or Sorceror-dip Dragon Disciple works. Suel Arcanamach, if you have access. Sorceror to Spellsword is good. For mounted combat–Cavalier or Wild Plains Outrider. If you took some Wisdom for Paladin spells, Pious Templar. Race-specific picks–Dwarven Defender, Wildrunner and Champion of Corellon. You could always multiclass into a base class that has synergy with Paladin–Fighter, Bard, Favoured Soul, Knight, or Marshal. Do you have any special prestige class access from your ARs? If you had access to, say, Nightsong Enforcer from a mod, you might consider working towards that (via Monk 2.) Finally, if you did spread your stats out in the first place, so you have the Cha and the Wis to use the mid-to-high-level paladin abilities, straight paladin 15 is pretty powerful. The only strong motivation to multiclass is if you didn't put points into Wis.
bitznarf 05-22-07, 04:29 PM	Speaking of which, how much wisdom does Zekir have anyway?
Arkrite 05-22-07, 04:53 PM	Zekir? My Paladin is almost level 3, and I built him under the assumption I'd be a Paladin for a long time... and that I'd like to have a useful ability beyond hitting things. Str: 14 Dex: 10 Con: 10 Int: 10 Wis: 14 Cha: 16 There is just something fun about having a diplomacy above and beyond anybody else at the table :D
King Kashue 05-22-07, 05:03 PM	10 con for a Pally? :doh: That's an issue, since with a 10 dex, you're certainly not going to be a ranged attacker...
bitznarf 05-22-07, 05:20 PM	I was thinking of Zekir al-Dhabiya, one of jstorie's PCs. He is a Paladin 4/Marshal 2 at the moment. And 10 Con can work for a Ride-by-Attack PC. The HP overall won't be a whole lot different from a Ride-by-Druid who uses a P of Wis rather than an A of Health. Its just a matter of adjusting your tactics for your character, as talked about in the 'excuses for low Con' thread (I dislike that thread name btw).
jstorrie 05-22-07, 06:41 PM	I'm running an 8 Wisdom on Zekir. It's a little pain to not have that one Pal1 spell, but when you're multiclassing out at 4 it's not a big deal–and he's hardly the level-headed knight in shining armor type. The points I saved on Wisdom I was able to dump into Strength, Constitution and Charisma–16, 14, 16, with 10 Dex, dumped Int/Wis, and Divine Might/Sacred Healing/Marshal auras to optimize that high of a starting Cha. But he's going Pal 4 / Mrsh 3 / Fighter 8 in the long run, which is somewhat light on the Paladin side in the end of things. I really wouldn't run a 10 Con even on a Ride-by-Attacker. There are times when you need to dismount, and as the martial weapon/heavy armor/d10 hit dice guy you really ought to be able to frontline when you can't play the horse, and that means 14 Con to start. Consider this–nearly every Wizard PC is going to take a 14 Con, or 16 if they can manage it. d4+2 versus d10+0. You only have one more hit point per level than the party Wizard. This is very, very bad news. Unless you've taken one or more Divine feats, Arkrite, are planning to Marshal or Outcast Champion dip, or are taking smiting feats, I don't really think it was wise to take that high of a Charisma to start. And it's definitely a terrible idea to run 10-Con paladins. You might want to see about fitting Knight levels in, and/or Improved Toughness, to shore up your hit points.
Arkrite 05-24-07, 05:39 AM	Well, sadly the stats are already set so there is nothing I could do about that. Nor would I really want to. My original concept wasn't to make a "great tank" I just wanted to make a decent paladin. If I wanted to make nothing but a tank I'd have just gone half orc, made dump stats of wis, int, and charisma and probably taken levels in barbarian and Knight. For Con... well I regularly play with a friend who plays a cleric, and magical items can also fix that. Though I will concede that taking a charisma that high was probably pretty silly. ;~) Back on topic though: Grey Guardian (Sounds like a superhero) is admittedly probably a good idea, considering that every session I've played thus far has been rather morally ambiguous. Throw in an Improved Smite feat, and extra smiting and that class dosn't sound so bad. Though the concept of hurting opponents with a lay on hands seems scandalous ;~) The Marshal class is interesting, but dosen't really fit the bill for me. I like the Pious Templar, Mettle just looks so pretty, but giving up all of my Paladin abilities just to get it seems kind of painful. Outcast Champion isn't possible due to lack of "half-(fill in the blank)" Well, thanks for all of the suggestions guys. If nothing else they made me go back and take a second look at classes I had previously brushed off... and realize some of them are actually more viable then I had given them credit for.
DerekSTheRed 05-24-07, 08:52 AM	You might also consider the knight base class from the PHB2. The high charisma would come in handy. Knights don't have diplomacy as a class skill, but they do have intimidate. Derek
kenobi65 05-24-07, 10:16 AM	I like the Pious Templar, Mettle just looks so pretty, but giving up all of my Paladin abilities just to get it seems kind of painful. You don't "give them up"...you simply stop advancing further in them. From the SRD on the Paladin class: A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate. Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities. So, as long as you don't change alignment, or screw up behaviorally, you retain your abilities; you just can't advance further. You still get your smite evil, lay on hands, etc.; they just don't get any better (and, in the case of smite evil, the templar's smite ability stacks with your paladin smite). And, let me tell you, Mettle totally saved my bacon in a recent module. We got two Cloudkills dumped on us...while none of us were low-level enough to die from it, we did face two "Fort half" saves for Con damage. I just walked through the clouds unscathed. :D
Eric Anondson 05-24-07, 04:37 PM	So, as long as you don't change alignment, or screw up behaviorally, you retain your abilities; you just can't advance further. You still get your smite evil, lay on hands, etc.; they just don't get any better (and, in the case of smite evil, the templar's smite ability stacks with your paladin smite).Speaking of stacking with smite evil, if you choose to change your alignment to chaotic good then holy liberator is an excellent choice for a PrC that has a somewhat paladin-esque vibe. Paladin levels stack with holy liberator for determining smite evil damage as well as caster level. Holy liberator uses the paladin spell list (with minor additions appropriate for chaos), plus you will have a much higher caster level without the investment of Practiced Spellcaster. Maxing out smite damage is wonderful at higher levels, especially if you grab Extra Smite. Plus, going holy liberator from paladin would give you 3rd level paladins one level sooner and 4th level paladin spells two levels sooner. I've found aura of resolve to be of much more value that a paladin's aura of courage, immunity to all charms and compulsions vs. immunity to fear. At high levels availability to heroes' feast makes fear immunity moot. Being immune to confusion/insanity, hold/charm monster, dominate, suggestion, tasha's, sleep and deep slumber, power words, feeblemind. . . so many spells that nerf low Will types.
kenobi65 05-24-07, 09:12 PM	Speaking of stacking with smite evil, if you choose to change your alignment to chaotic good then holy liberator is an excellent choice for a PrC that has a somewhat paladin-esque vibe. Although, depending on the deity you've got for your paladin (and it sounds like the OP has already started his character), doing such might require changing deities...and, I think, an Atonement.
Arkrite 05-25-07, 09:30 AM	Yeah, level 2 Lawful Good Paladin. I've already had one GM tell me I'm not even allowed to lie by omission. So much for Aei Sedai lies. Though I've got to say the saddest part was sitting down for my first session ever and having the entire table audibly groan when they found out I was playing a paladin. Ironically the evil cleric... sorry, "Chaotic Neutral" cleric ended up being the biggest problem in the game. (Is it just me or is "Good for what Ales you" a really poor session for a Paladin? ;~) ) As for Holy Liberator... I think that would probably be a fun one to switch to if I was playing a fighter class other then Paladin (in spite of the stiff skill requirements), but if I were to do that I'd lose all of my Paladin abilities that I had up to the point I got that class. Though, ironically, it does sound like you could become lawful again and not lose your Liberator abilities as they only really mention that you're not allowed to be evil. Thought I'm pretty sure they just forgot to mention that swapping to Lawful would probably lose your abilities too.
Arkrite 05-25-07, 09:46 AM	I was thinking, it would be fully possible for me to go Paladin 5/ Pious Templar 1/Grey Guardian 9. I retain my Paladin abilities, thus not negating my build, gain some extra resistance from some spells (though I'll still be done in by fireballs and magic missiles). Not a bad concept...
bitznarf 05-25-07, 11:05 AM	Have you looked at Complete Champion? I took a quick flip though it yesterday and some of that stuff may suit you well. At this point it would require a special mission as none of it is Open by default, but it might be worth considering.
kenobi65 05-25-07, 12:52 PM	Yeah, level 2 Lawful Good Paladin. Well, the issue is more, who is your deity? If you're worshipping a NG deity, it'd be possible to switch to CG (to go into Holy Liberator) and not have to change deities or worry about an Atonement. But, most paladins I've ever seen (mine included) worship LG deities.
Arkrite 05-25-07, 04:09 PM	Pelor, he's Neutral Good. So sue me, I liked the concept of a god who's only hang up was undead ;~) Though why his special "relic" weapon is something that can't hurt undead is beyond me. Also the concept of a "healing" god who's relic weapon can explode and kill many people also boggles my mind... That put aside I still think I'd lose my Paladin abilities if I swapped from Lawful Good... though after reading it again the wording says that a paladin must be lawful good, but only stipulates that he loses his powers if he makes an evil act... Again, I think that's more likely poor wording rather then intent. As for the Complete Champion... for reasons I cannot go into (because you will laugh at me) I cannot look at it for another two weeks. But at that point in time I do intend to look through it, yes.
Eric Anondson 05-25-07, 04:47 PM	That put aside I still think I'd lose my Paladin abilities if I swapped from Lawful Good...You would lose you paladin abilities if you cease being Lawful Good. But with holy liberator you keep your smite evil (but get one more use per day), detect evil, and spellcasting (which gets a major power boost!). You still have the aura of good. You'd get an immediate +2 boost to your Fort save and no slow down to your Reflex or Will saves increment. You lose divine grace (but get it back after a few levels). You lose aura of courage (but get the far superior aura of resolve in three levels). You lose lay on hands (but gain remove fatigue, letting everyone be able to sleep in armor). You lose immunity to disease (in LG, big deal). You lose turn undead (unless you were getting a Divine feat, not a big deal). You'd lose your remove disease, but again, big deal. Just saying, a shift to holy liberator with Pelor as the deity saves you an atonement and isn't as bad a lose as you may be making out.
clik_ml 05-25-07, 06:03 PM	I've already had one GM tell me I'm not even allowed to lie by omission. So much for Aei Sedai lies. Ugh, then that judge needs a talking to. You can't be expected to explain everything ad nauseum to every single person you meet. If people make assumptions that don't prove to be true, that's on them, not on the paladin. As for tables groaning, I have been at lawful-heavy tables before, and sometimes it has cost us the adventure (i.e. legitimate law authorities ask for evidence in our possession, we yield it, and they turn out to be corrupt and evidence is lost and mod ends). While we groaned, we still would have done it the same with those characters since we had no reason to suspect otherwise. As for PrC for paladins, I'm a fan of a simple 5 Paladin/10 Pious Templar. Pepper in a couple extra smite feats, melee weapon mastery, power attack/divine might, and you are good to go- able to deal consistently good damage (a notch above iconic), take a beating and even offer up a minimal amount of healing. It works less-splendidly with Pelor since a mace isn't as handy as a greatsword, or bastard sword, or long sword and so on, but it still works.
bitznarf 05-25-07, 06:24 PM	As for PrC for paladins, I'm a fan of a simple 5 Paladin/10 Pious Templar. Pepper in a couple extra smite feats, melee weapon mastery, power attack/divine might, and you are good to go- able to deal consistently good damage (a notch above iconic), take a beating and even offer up a minimal amount of healing. It works less-splendidly with Pelor since a mace isn't as handy as a greatsword, or bastard sword, or long sword and so on, but it still works. Do Paladin caster levels stack with Pious Templar levels? Ie. is there any reason to take that 4/5th Paladin level instead of 2 Fighter levels to start your career?
jstorrie 05-25-07, 06:37 PM	Ugh, then that judge needs a talking to. You can't be expected to explain everything ad nauseum to every single person you meet. If people make assumptions that don't prove to be true, that's on them, not on the paladin. Your paladin doesn't need to spend hours making sure every NPC is informed of every aspect of every situation, but if you act with the intention to deceive you're breaking your code of conduct.
clik_ml 05-25-07, 06:51 PM	Do Paladin caster levels stack with Pious Templar levels? Ie. is there any reason to take that 4/5th Paladin level instead of 2 Fighter levels to start your career? For a 2nd smite (and +2 extra damage for said smites), an extra paladin spell, and turning for divine feats. And a mount on call, just in case. Paladin caster levels don't stack with Pious Templar, but that's okay since paladin caster levels progress at 1/2 rate anyway. [edit: oh, and jstorrie... I disagree :-]
jstorrie 05-25-07, 06:57 PM	The 2nd smite is okay, but the spell is nothing special and turning is at Pal 4. I'd prefer to enter Pious Templar with Paladin 4 / Fighter 2–and given that Pious Templars have no use for Charisma, Ranger 4 / Fighter 2 or Fighter 4 / Monk 2 would be even better.
GenghisBob 05-25-07, 07:41 PM	Paladin is its own reward, and a PRC class in it self. Your stats are good enough to stick to it and make it work. Do hold of on your decision until you read Divine Champion. There are some choice paladin specific feats there. Chocie! Bro' GB
GenghisBob 05-25-07, 07:44 PM	The 2nd smite is okay, but the spell is nothing special and turning is at Pal 4. I'd prefer to enter Pious Templar with Paladin 4 / Fighter 2–and given that Pious Templars have no use for Charisma, Ranger 4 / Fighter 2 or Fighter 4 / Monk 2 would be even better. Hey, since you are dumping two levels of smite for the fighter, i guess you are going for the feats, what do you think about taking one of Fighter and one of Cleric, especially if war domain is one of the choices? to levarge some domain love as well? (assuming it is Human unless you want the gp/xp penalty and started as a Paladin) Regards GB
Eric Anondson 05-25-07, 07:45 PM	The 2nd smite is okay, but the spell is nothing special and turning is at Pal 4.The turning would power a Divine feat of your choice though. Maybe Divine Justice or Divine Might?
bitznarf 05-25-07, 08:35 PM	Hey, since you are dumping two levels of smite for the fighter, i guess you are going for the feats, what do you think about taking one of Fighter and one of Cleric, especially if war domain is one of the choices? to levarge some domain love as well? (assuming it is Human unless you want the gp/xp penalty and started as a Paladin) Regards GB The War domain granted power (WF in a weapon) is no better mechanics wise than a second Fighter level to get the WF. You lose 1 BAB in exchange for 1st level cleric spells, +2 Will, and a second domain power
Arkrite 05-25-07, 09:15 PM	My lie was going to be that I was responsible for the inadvertent poisoning of some people. I was willing to accept the blame, (that is I would never deny it, but I wouldn't confirm it) because the result was that if I didn't an innocent man would be put into slavery for years for something he had no way of knowing. (Can't explain better then that without giving away plot info, he was innocent without question though.) He (DM) said flat out I wasn't allowed to do that. I struggled for about ten minutes trying to come up with some way to help this poor innocent, and ultimately unimportant NPC before I was forced to give up on the concept and just move along with the game. (In my defense the others were continuing to play, I was just spending more time thinking then RPing at that moment). For that reason alone I'll probably move to Grey Guard. So I can lie... for goodness! ;~)
jstorrie 05-25-07, 09:32 PM	The turning would power a Divine feat of your choice though. Maybe Divine Justice or Divine Might? Yes, it would. I'm saying that you get turning at level four. You don't need to go to Pal 5 if you want Divine feats.
clik_ml 05-26-07, 01:30 AM	Yes, it would. I'm saying that you get turning at level four. You don't need to go to Pal 5 if you want Divine feats. Pal 5 gives about 1/2 a feat for +1 smite/day and +1 smite damage and +cha mod to lay on hands... and the mount is what clinches it for me. If you don't care at all about the mount, then a fighter level looks a lot more tempting (since it frees up another feat for extra smite, if need be).
jstorrie 05-26-07, 05:01 AM	If you're taking more than one Divine feat, Extra Turning may be more attractive than Extra Smiting anyway. With Power Attack, you will get more damage out of Extra Smiting on single attacks, but once multiple hits come into play, or if you want extra versatility (Sacred Healing is pretty great–the amount of pure clean-up healing it kicks out the mid-levels will save your wallet) the Divine feats do pull ahead. If you're going into another class with a smite ability that you can boost with Extra Smite (like Pious Templar) then Pal 5 could make sense. If you're going into Gray Guard, it could make sense (since your Lay on Hands is a focus.) If you're going into Hospitaler or Cavalier or Wild Plains Outrider for mount progression, it makes sense. But if you're going for a heavy infantry mutt, I'd stop at 4. The fighter feat is just too much bang for your buck.
Timlagor 05-26-07, 05:05 AM	Refusing to deny something is not the same as lying or deceiving by omission. You are not forced to tell people things -I just wouldn't allow you to say things in such a way as to deliberately mislead.
jstorrie 05-26-07, 04:41 PM	If you plan the deception out with your party rogue beforehand, though, your paladin is definitely complicit. If you just keep your mouth shut when he lies out of the blue... well, it's dicey, but you can get away with it depending on your GM. If you gave the rogue a stern talking-to afterwards I imagine I'd let it fly. But if someone accuses you of poisoning the water and you just say 'I refuse to answer that question,' you're certainly in the clear.
_metz_ 05-27-07, 12:38 AM	My Rogue told the paladin that kept casting detect evil on me (in my party) as a joke that if he did it again without permission/authority, bad things would happen. Player argued that cos his character can do it, he should be allowed to. I informed him by that token my rogue was going to steal all his stuff. Then bugger off. I now have an amulet of non detection for RP reasons, so is all good :) (Sarian doesn't like nosy people, specially ones with no authority to be nosy)
kenobi65 05-27-07, 01:17 AM	I now have an amulet of non detection for RP reasons, so is all good :) Either that, or you just need a lead sheet. ;)
_metz_ 05-27-07, 03:35 AM	Either that, or you just need a lead sheet. ;) Well it essentially IS my 'lead sheet' per say... just actually whipping one out could cause issues with initiative rolls...
Timlagor 05-27-07, 01:31 PM	How would a Rogue know that a Paladin was using his detect evil ability? All that is apparent is the paladin look at the Rogue for an extended period (there is no "casting" invovled unless the Paladin was using an actual spell for no good reason).
jstorrie 05-27-07, 04:56 PM	I get a lot of table variation on Detect Evil. Most judges agree with me that since it has no verbal or somatic components, there's nothing to notice. Others suggest that since using the ability can provoke an AoO, the paladin is doing noticeable concentration–but still, I don't see why other characters would have any idea what the paladin is concentrating on. Maybe he's just deep in thought.
ShinAkuma2 05-27-07, 05:53 PM	All that is apparent is the paladin look at the Rogue for an extended period (there is no "casting" invovled unless the Paladin was using an actual spell for no good reason). He doesn't even have to look at the Rogue. It's a large enough cone that he just has to aim in that general direction. He could be looking at his fingernails while Detecting Evil.
Timlagor 05-27-07, 07:58 PM	There is certainly noticeable concentration but in a non-combat context that isn't readily distinguishable from just standing there.
_metz_ 05-27-07, 08:53 PM	Cos the Paladin kept walking up to me and 'detecting' evil. He would announce it. I reeeeeaaaaalllly don't like the detect evil class feature. It seems so off... Maybe give skill popints and sense motive as a class skill, but the ability?? And lets not get started on the "There are definitely 2476 sources of earth in this room. definitely." Ability...
clannagh 05-27-07, 09:07 PM	paldins detect evil as a special action "as the spell" so ... Components: V, S, DF -- this one might be debatable .. EVT on whether they need to mumble and waive hands around Casting Time: 1 standard action -- i would say yes they need to use a standard action to do it Range: 60 ft. Area: Cone-shaped emanation -- again yes .. its not cast "on" something its a cone Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./ level (D) -- and again i would make a Paladin concentrate to maintain it In particular paladins should not be able to just "turn detect evil on" without using a standard action and then wander about normally leaving it running
Arkrite 05-27-07, 09:23 PM	I've never seen it as a useful ability. In combat it's better for the paladin to be doing damage or anything else, rather then doing detect evil. In social situations most people get rather upset if you start trying to cast detect evil on them. The evil ones are mad because you'll find out, the not evil ones are mad because you just insulted them... Not to mention that there is a chance of doing detect evil and being stunned due to sheer evil coming off a person. Which leads to another question, is there really any point to "Aura of Good" beyond flavor? I've never heard of an opponent ever feeling the need to "Detect Good".
Mommy was an Orc 05-27-07, 10:26 PM	It is a spell-like ability - there are no components, it takes a standard action to do, and you only need to spend a standard action to maintain it each round(allowing you to move about with your move action.) There should not be table variation on this. paldins detect evil as a special action "as the spell" so ... Components: V, S, DF -- this one might be debatable .. EVT on whether they need to mumble and waive hands around Casting Time: 1 standard action -- i would say yes they need to use a standard action to do it Range: 60 ft. Area: Cone-shaped emanation -- again yes .. its not cast "on" something its a cone Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./ level (D) -- and again i would make a Paladin concentrate to maintain it In particular paladins should not be able to just "turn detect evil on" without using a standard action and then wander about normally leaving it running
copper_wyrmling 05-28-07, 09:35 AM	Which leads to another question, is there really any point to "Aura of Good" beyond flavor? I've never heard of an opponent ever feeling the need to "Detect Good". I've seen it come up in Iuz mods more than once - you want either a ring of mind shielding (fortunately your employers will sometimes lend you one if it's going to be critical - although it was a little scary when all our Drinkers-issued rings of mind shielding crumbled to dust inside Dorakaa) or repeated castings of undetectable alignment. I've never seen a case where it was beneficial to radiate Good, though ;) Oh, and MwaO is right about the paladin ability.
bitznarf 05-28-07, 01:03 PM	I've seen a case where it was beneficial to *be* good. Or more accurately to detect as either Lawful and/or Good. You didn't actually need the Aura of Good.
King Kashue 05-29-07, 01:18 AM	I've never seen it as a useful ability. In combat it's better for the paladin to be doing damage or anything else, rather then doing detect evil. Not useful? Hrm, is there something in the next room? Yes, yes there is... Just yesterday: "Hrm, what's at the bottom of the murky pond?" Hrm, 5 evil presences, strong auras. Lets try a turn, oh look, they're running away..." "Hrm, should we trust this guy? Well, he is evil" It's not a combat ability, but most divinations aren't...Doesn't mean they're not useful. In social situations most people get rather upset if you start trying to cast detect evil on them. The evil ones are mad because you'll find out, the not evil ones are mad because you just insulted them... But you don't cast it. It's a spell like ability. It explicitly has no components. You're not doing anything verbally, somatically, and you hold no material components. You concentrate for 3-18 seconds...that's it. Not to mention that there is a chance of doing detect evil and being stunned due to sheer evil coming off a person. So many people get this wrong. First of all, it doesn't happen the first round, therefore there is no risk of "hrm I detect evil" STUNNED! It only happens if you choose to keep looking in the second round, and if the creature is overwhelming and twice your character level (which means, at minimum, an evil outsider or cleric 11 HD+ and twice your level. 21+ for undead).) The actual situations where you face a stun are incredibly limited.