Post/Author/DateTime	Post
polalion 12-27-07, 02:14 PM	A member of my party has been running me through some of them but I never seem to make any impressions. I'm still rather new to the game so... This is my 5 Sorcerer: Str 10 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 19 (16+1 bump and +2 cloak) 1 Sor - Spell Focus (Evoc), Draconic Heritage 3 Sor - Draconic Power Spells: Cantrips - Detect Magic, Light, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost, Acid Splash, Dancing Lights Level 1 - Mage Armor, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, Lesser Orb of Acid Level 2 - Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray I'm looking for a decent offensive casting class that gives caster level progression, seeing how Sorcerers already get spells slower than other casters. What would be good?
Mattastrophic 12-27-07, 03:35 PM	Off the top of my head: -Ruathar (if you find it) -Fatespinner (max out some DCs and provide rerolls) -Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (requires feat and skill investments, though) -Matt
MwaO 12-27-07, 03:58 PM	You basically just want to make sure to get full caster progression. So 5th level of Fatespinner isn't a great idea, but the 1st 4 are quite nice. Ruathar is the definite must-have PrC for a Sorc. It just opens up so many PrC doors with almost no opportunity cost. I'd also broaden out your spell choice - right now, you're a Warmage without the sheer range of being a Warmage. You should have some 'what if damage isn't what's necessary to defeat the mod' - See Invisibility or Glitterdust can shut down Invisibility problems. False Life means you're harder to kill. Haste makes your party a lot better once you hit 6th. Etc...
magebeast 12-27-07, 05:32 PM	You basically just want to make sure to get full caster progression. So 5th level of Fatespinner isn't a great idea, but the 1st 4 are quite nice. Ruathar is the definite must-have PrC for a Sorc. It just opens up so many PrC doors with almost no opportunity cost. I'd also broaden out your spell choice - right now, you're a Warmage without the sheer range of being a Warmage. You should have some 'what if damage isn't what's necessary to defeat the mod' - See Invisibility or Glitterdust can shut down Invisibility problems. False Life means you're harder to kill. Haste makes your party a lot better once you hit 6th. Etc... This is pretty much it. You want to spend as little time taking base sorcerer as possible - although 6 levels is generally the minimum given that most PrCs require 3rd level spells, at least. Never, ever give up caster levels.
copperwyrmling 12-27-07, 05:36 PM	If you get Ruathar access (i.e. all Knowledge skills become class skills), then Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine) is an interesting PrC later on, because it grants you undead-turning and hence the opportunity to take Divine feats, which can work well with your high Charisma. Warweaver is a very powerful party-buffing class if you get access, but I'm not sure that's what you're after. Apart from that: yeah, Fatespinner 4 is very common for good reason. In most cases, though, most of a sorc's power comes from their spell list + metamagic feats, rather than their PrC abilities (the likely exceptions being Warweaver, Shadowcraft Mage and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil). As MwaO said, it would be good to have more non-direct-damage spells. Direct damage can be good, especially in tables that otherwise lack damage-dealing potential, but at the moment you really are playing an inferior warmage. If I were you I would take Empower Spell or some similar metamagic feat ASAP (i.e. at sixth level). Metamagic allows your low-level damage spells to remain effective at higher levels, so you don't need to keep picking damage spells as spells-known (or at least, not as many). When my sorc hit L12, she may only have had one L6 spell known, but once you count in metamagic combos she had nine different spells that occupied a L6 slot and did something unique and useful. Her highest-level primarily-direct-damage spell was L4 (she had a L5 trick specifically for dealing with globes of invulnerability). Once you have some metamagic, Metamagic School Focus (Evocation) and Rapid Metamagic seem like they would be good feats for you (both are from Complete Mage iirc).
magebeast 12-27-07, 06:16 PM	If you get Ruathar access (i.e. all Knowledge skills become class skills), then Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine) is an interesting PrC later on, because it grants you undead-turning and hence the opportunity to take Divine feats, which can work well with your high Charisma. Warweaver is a very powerful party-buffing class if you get access, but I'm not sure that's what you're after. I've thought about this but unfortunately none of the turning feats that are open to Living Greyhawk are all that impressive really. The earliest you can take Divine Exorcist is at 11, because 10 is the earliest you can get dismissal. Divine vigor isn't too bad, I guess, but it takes a standard action and is only minutes long so it's kind of rough to be using at level 12 - the earliest you can get it. You could follow this up with spiritual counter from Complete Champion at 15 and it wouldn't be too awful, although you'd only be getting about one a day probably. I suppose that's good enough. The two really great feats for a sorcerer with turning would be DSP and DMM and as we all know those two cleric toys are long gone :P
bitznarf 12-27-07, 06:20 PM	The two really great feats for a sorcerer with turning would be DSP and DMM and as we all know those two cleric toys are long gone :P Must.. not.. make.. sorc.. with DMM.. in.. home.. game.. .. will.. failing..
copperwyrmling 12-27-07, 06:30 PM	Must.. not.. make.. sorc.. with DMM.. in.. home.. game.. .. will.. failing.. I'm 99% sure DMM and DSP only work on divine spells, because I looked at this exact combo before they went away ;) Sacred Healing is pretty nice if your party is at all healing-challenged, since the total healing/day scales quadratically with charisma modifier. It's about giving your sorc additional abilities, rather than boosting their offence, though.
magebeast 12-27-07, 06:37 PM	Must.. not.. make.. sorc.. with DMM.. in.. home.. game.. .. will.. failing.. You want a hilarious build? I've got one... Sorcerer 6/Rainbow Servant 1/Ruathar 2/Wild Mage 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Fatespinner 4 Why all of these classes? Rainbow servant gives you the good domain (and detect evil...woohoo), as well as offering access to Know Religion as a class skill. With the Good Domain you can later pick up Holy Word. The table seems to indicate that first level loses spellcasting but that's not what the text says and as far as I know text overrides tables (later non-english editions not withstanding). Ruathar is for skills, obviously. You need some know planes to get into Sacred Exorcist. Wild Mage you have to switch alignments to chaotic (can't be chaotic for Rainbow Servant, but there's no penalty for changing alignments). You make sure and pick up practiced spellcaster to avoid the loss of caster levels when you roll the D6. Sacred Exorcist gives you turning, obviously. Fatespinner is just for kicks. So at 12 you can pick up DSP. At 14 you can pick up Holy Word. Roll well on DSP and your Wild Mage roll and you've just cast a Holy Word at CL 21. If you can manage to get Righteous Might somehow - or maybe UMD the karma beads, not sure how that would work - you could bump it to a 23. Big downsides to the build? A BAB of +6 at level 15, and a base fort save of +3. You do get a pretty mighty +16 base will save though. EDIT: Hmm. I didn't see the Divine Spell part on DSP until Copper Pointed it out. Think an Arcane Spellcaster casting Holy Word is close enough? I'm 99% sure DMM and DSP only work on divine spells, because I looked at this exact combo before they went away ;) Sacred Healing is pretty nice if your party is at all healing-challenged, since the total healing/day scales quadratically with charisma modifier. It's about giving your sorc additional abilities, rather than boosting their offence, though. I just looked at DMM actually and DMM definitely DOES NOT say divine spells. Well, the "fluff text" above it does, but the actual rules text does not. ETV I suppose, and since you can't use it in LG anyway, ask your home game DM.
copperwyrmling 12-27-07, 06:51 PM	Wild Mage you have to switch alignments to chaotic (can't be chaotic for Rainbow Servant, but there's no penalty for changing alignments). Sadly, the latest FAQ says, "A character who no longer meets the requirements of his prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class, but he also "loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class." Hmm. I didn't see the Divine Spell part on DSP until Copper Pointed it out. Think an Arcane Spellcaster casting Holy Word is close enough? No, iirc they were actually careful to say that you cast the spells from Arcane Disciple and extra domains as arcane spells (if you normally cast arcane spells): if you let them count as divine, it makes it much easier to qualify for certain PrCs that require the "ability to cast divine spells of X level". I just looked at DMM actually and DMM definitely DOES NOT say divine spells. Well, the "fluff text" above it does, but the actual rules text does not. ETV I suppose, and since you can't use it in LG anyway, ask your home game DM. I don't think the feat description is just fluff text (and I'm almost certain I've seen a FAQ entry or errata making this explicit for DMM, but I can't find it), but in a home game, yeah, whatever your GM says goes ;)
magebeast 12-27-07, 06:55 PM	Sadly, the latest FAQ says, "A character who no longer meets the requirements of his prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class, but he also "loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class." Well, given that we're in Home Game territory the FAQ is negotiable. Although I still think levels in Rainbow Servant in LG so you can take Holy Word is funny, if not optimal.
bitznarf 12-27-07, 07:01 PM	Rainbow servant gives you the good domain (and detect evil...woohoo), as well as offering access to Know Religion as a class skill. With the Good Domain you can later pick up Holy Word. The table seems to indicate that first level loses spellcasting but that's not what the text says and as far as I know text overrides tables (later non-english editions not withstanding). I'm well aware of the Rainbow Servant stuff. But I've never seen/heard of a DM that would allow that. In any campaign. Even in LG where for some reason a literal reading of the words as written seems to take precedence over the spirit of the rules for whatever reason, rather than being used in conjunction with the spirit. Sadly, the latest FAQ says, "A character who no longer meets the requirements of his prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class, but he also "loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class." Also note that spells per day is under a different listing than 'class features or other special abilities' on most PrCs.
MwaO 12-27-07, 07:05 PM	You want a hilarious build? I've got one... Sorcerer 6/Rainbow Servant 1/Ruathar 2/Wild Mage 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Fatespinner 4 Yeah, that's one of those builds where you should expect to get smacked upside the head by a lot of DMs...who rule you don't actually qualify for Sacred Exorcist because of one of two possible reasons from Rainbow Servant.
MwaO 12-27-07, 07:07 PM	Well, given that we're in Home Game territory the FAQ is negotiable. Although I still think levels in Rainbow Servant in LG so you can take Holy Word is funny, if not optimal. My Favored Beguiler of Pelor may actually be able to cast this eventually, by UMDing a Scroll of Owl's Wisdom onto himself - he might have the Good Domain at some point.
MwaO 12-27-07, 07:11 PM	I don't think the feat description is just fluff text (and I'm almost certain I've seen a FAQ entry or errata making this explicit for DMM, but I can't find it), but in a home game, yeah, whatever your GM says goes ;) It is in the Complete Divine Errata: "As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. . . ." (highlighted in red no less)
copperwyrmling 12-27-07, 07:33 PM	Well, given that we're in Home Game territory the FAQ is negotiable. Although I still think levels in Rainbow Servant in LG so you can take Holy Word is funny, if not optimal. Indeed :) It is a fun idea to get Holy Word onto your spell list somehow so you can take advantage of arcane CL bumps ;) My preferred strategy, however, is to co-opt a cleric to cast it for you :) I want to see Az's bard cohort give the party cleric +5 to her caster level, then have Az split-ray enervate the bad guy for an average -5 to its HD, and then have the cleric cast Holy Word... and it's all LG-legal :schemes: But this is running rather far afield from the topic of the thread - sorry!
copperwyrmling 12-27-07, 07:36 PM	Also note that spells per day is under a different listing than 'class features or other special abilities' on most PrCs. Sure, but the Good domain is why you took the class, isn't it? I'd imagine it's a class feature, although I haven't checked.
Mattastrophic 12-27-07, 09:55 PM	Sorc6/Ruathar3/7Fold would be a very solid build. Or Sorc7/Fatespinner2/7Fold, if you can make the skills work. -Matt
JamesMaissen 12-27-07, 10:40 PM	What would be good? You need to start planning out your spells and feats. Looking at PrCs is good, but weigh it against costs when you have a baseline. For example when you look at ISVF it looks awesome. But then the skills and feat costs come into play and contortions to make them fit in might cause you to wind up paying too much for even awesome abilities. You look to be missing a lot of variation in your spells. Your feats don't seem to be working for you in this fashion either. Plan on retraining a goodly number of them and swapping out lower level ones as you level to even casting levels. -James
magebeast 12-27-07, 11:37 PM	I'm well aware of the Rainbow Servant stuff. But I've never seen/heard of a DM that would allow that. In any campaign. Even in LG where for some reason a literal reading of the words as written seems to take precedence over the spirit of the rules for whatever reason, rather than being used in conjunction with the spirit. Why do you think that it is a literal reading as opposed to the spirit? It's certainly a typo one way or the other, but I'm inclined to feel that there's nothing particularly broken about the class with it having full casting progression. It's not cheesy, it's a question of which takes precedence.
magebeast 12-28-07, 01:26 AM	Yeah, that's one of those builds where you should expect to get smacked upside the head by a lot of DMs...who rule you don't actually qualify for Sacred Exorcist because of one of two possible reasons from Rainbow Servant. What two, specifically, are these? A neutral good sorcerer dedicated to the eradication of evil - perhaps specifically evil outsiders - who also sought out the couatls of a jungle temple to learn secrets of divine spellcasting that your temple couldn't provide doesn't make sense? I can understand a sort of distaste for the utter mishmash of PrCs but the whole thing certainly isn't outside the bounds of potential story for a character. Hopping over to a chaotic alignment is pretty ugly too, but you could totally gut that Wild Mage level for another level of Ruathar. Are you thinking of Church Inquisitor? I could maybe see that being a little less compatible.
MwaO 12-28-07, 10:00 AM	What two, specifically, are these? A neutral good sorcerer dedicated to the eradication of evil - perhaps specifically evil outsiders - who also sought out the couatls of a jungle temple to learn secrets of divine spellcasting that your temple couldn't provide doesn't make sense? If someone rules you're not advancing from one of your PrCs, which is quite likely, you don't cast 5th level spells. Which means you can't cast Dispel Evil or Dismissal at 10th. i.e. you don't qualify for Sacred Exorcist. Why do you think that it is a literal reading as opposed to the spirit? It's certainly a typo one way or the other, but I'm inclined to feel that there's nothing particularly broken about the class with it having full casting progression. It's not cheesy, it's a question of which takes precedence. It is an obvious edit error - it is called a moderate spellcasting class in the beginning of the prestige class section, it has a table that someone edited, and most importantly, there are two other PrCs right next to it with the same kind of error. It is also a literal reading of what is text.
bitznarf 12-28-07, 10:56 AM	And there are the foreign language versions...
polalion 12-28-07, 02:17 PM	Wow thanks to everyone for their help. Really got a discussion going there.
magebeast 12-28-07, 10:44 PM	Wow thanks to everyone for their help. Really got a discussion going there. I kind of hijacked your thread there, sorry about that :\ Any other questions?
Hariman 12-31-07, 12:58 AM	I kind of hijacked your thread there, sorry about that :\ Any other questions? Well, I've got one. Which classes can a Sorcerer get into with Rauthar access? I've gotten Rauthar access for my sorcerer, but don't know where to go beyond Fatespinner. (And my character was going for fatespinner anyway.) I'm taking Rauthar levels no matter what. The simple virtue of getting some knowledge skills is enough to do that.
MwaO 12-31-07, 10:45 AM	Well, I've got one. Which classes can a Sorcerer get into with Rauthar access? I've gotten Rauthar access for my sorcerer, but don't know where to go beyond Fatespinner. (And my character was going for fatespinner anyway.) I'm taking Rauthar levels no matter what. The simple virtue of getting some knowledge skills is enough to do that. Sacred Exorcist - get turning attempts, full caster, d8 HD Divine Oracle and Loremaster - Ruathar even gives a nice Reflex boost for the Prescient Sense. All hard to enter via Sorcerer due to lack of knowledge skills. There are more, but that's the idea.
polalion 12-31-07, 12:05 PM	Thanks for the all the suggestions guys. I'm reaching 6 soon and I'm trying to decide on my feat that level. I already decided on Fireball, so that's taken care of. It's the feat I'm undecided on. Should I take a fire reserve feat (for the free spell and extra CL) or a metamagic feat? Btw, Happy New Year!
TWG_Prometheus 12-31-07, 12:55 PM	I'm taking Rauthar levels no matter what. The simple virtue of getting some knowledge skills is enough to do that. I wasn't counting on getting Ruathar access at all, but when I did my Spellsword hijacked it for Spot, Hide and Move Silently. All things that a Spellsword isn't supposed to be good at!
MwaO 12-31-07, 01:18 PM	Thanks for the all the suggestions guys. I'm reaching 6 soon and I'm trying to decide on my feat that level. I already decided on Fireball, so that's taken care of. It's the feat I'm undecided on. Should I take a fire reserve feat (for the free spell and extra CL) or a metamagic feat? Btw, Happy New Year! The last thing you need is more spells or slight bump to damage, especially from a valuable feat. You're getting to the point where you're less likely to cast your 1st level spells in combat - they need to either be metamagickable and/or serve emergency purposes. So Magic Missile is great for both of those. Burning Hands and Flaming Sphere not so much. I'd trade out Burning Hands for Grease, Distract Assailant, or Guided Shot. The 2nd two are good for helping with your ranged touch attack spells. The 1st has a whole bunch of useful things to do with it(constructs tend to have lousy reflex saves and they're not immune to it) I'd then get Empower Spell. It will help with a lot of your spells and give you a lot of options once you hit 8th level - Empowered Scorching Ray does 12d6 at that point.
Howie23 12-31-07, 03:14 PM	You look to be missing a lot of variation in your spells. Your feats don't seem to be working for you in this fashion either. Additional thought to James': Sorcs really need read magic to decipher scrolls. You didn't post skills, so don't know if you're handling it from the spellcraft side, but scrolls can take up the slack to provide the utility spells that are so useful, as well as loaned scrolls. David
Questor 01-05-08, 06:44 PM	My Favored Beguiler of Pelor may actually be able to cast this eventually, by UMDing a Scroll of Owl's Wisdom onto himself - he might have the Good Domain at some point. How does a Favoured Beguiler work / What is a Favoured Beguiler?
MwaO 01-06-08, 12:05 AM	How does a Favoured Beguiler work / What is a Favoured Beguiler? He's a Beguiler who thinks he's a Favored Soul of Pelor. I've basically justified all the major Beguiler abilities as coming from Pelor - wouldn't Pelor grant a favored soul Glitterdust or Color Spray? He's taking Arcane Disciple at least 3 times, maybe 4. It adds the spells to his spell list, so he can cast them once a day each. Right now he has Healing and Purification, so he can do some healing and a little damage. If I added the Good Domain at 12th or 15th, he'd be able to cast Holy Word with a 7th level spell. In practice, he does kind of feel like a Divine Caster, even if he isn't.