Primary Melee Thoughts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Primary Melee Thoughts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Demoyn
07-08-07, 09:44 PM So my dwarf is out of time units for the year, and I had planned to make a wizard backup. Unfortunately it's come to my attention that without my tank, my group will have no primary melee character, so it looks like I'm going to make yet another one!

My current one is a balanced form of cork. I want to at least have a little variety in my gameplay, even if I have to fill the same slot. I think this time I'll try a form of half-orc barbarian.

Right now, though, I'm pretty much at a loss. I think I may want to try and take barbarian for 5 levels, then move over into some pious templar and outcast champion.

I don't want to be JUST a damage machine, but I want it to be my primary focus. I think my main goal will be to mix barbarian rage with power attack and divine sacrifice. Any thoughts or suggestions? I haven't even worked out my stats yet, so I'm all ears.
boogahwoof
07-08-07, 11:25 PM I have a friend that mixed 1 barbarian 4 fighter 5 outcast champion and now hes rolling into mennasing brute. He seems to have alot of fun with the character.
_metz_
07-09-07, 03:41 AM fighter 5

Though shalt not take uneven levels of fighter!
Dr.Cornelius
07-09-07, 06:50 AM Thou shalt not take more than one, or at the very most two, levels of Barbarian. Not many reasons to take more than 4 levels of Fighter either.

Have you considered a Barbarian Battle Cleric? It fits nicely into the primary melee slot, gets a much improved Will save and has a few tricks from domain abilities and spells. The character is meant to be a melee specialist, but in a pinch can cast scrolls and act as a backup cleric - which is always good.

Something like this:
Half-Orc
Str:18 Dex:14 Con:14 Int:8 Wis:14 Cha:6
Stat bumps to Wis, skill points to Concentration

1 level of Barbarian, then straight Cleric.

Feats:
1. Extra Rage
3. Power Attack
6. Improved Initiative
9. Imp. Bull Rush, retrain Imp. Init. to Shock Trooper

The character concept is kind of a loner mercenary, so I went with Kelanen with Greatsword, Travel and War domains. Kord, Fahrlanghn, St.Cuthbert and a number of others work just as well.

The character can also tank up by going Sword and Board or even Improved Buckler Defense with a 2-Handed weapon.

After Extra Rage the feats are pretty open. CWI at 6th might be optimal if the character has TUs to burn.
Demoyn
07-09-07, 08:43 AM I had given thought to making a dwarven battle cleric. I also used to have a half-orc battle cleric that I loved. Will that allow me to really be the primary melee? Seems that in the past when I played a rogue/cleric, the battles were half over by the time I was done buffing.

Also, why does everyone recommend shock trooper? I've read it, and I see where it would have a few uses, but I didn't see a reason to think it was good enough for the pre-req feats. What am I missing? Do other regions (I live in the Bandit Kingdoms) use bull rush more often than us or what?

Lastly, if I'm going to make a half-orc battle cleric, I'll definitely put more points into charisma so that I can use some divine feats.
amnuxoll
07-09-07, 09:48 AM You should play the wizard. If you don't like the character you won't want to play him. Why doesn't one of the other members of your group start a tank?

If you feel you must go tank, then perhaps start a gish?

:AMN:
rutrow424
07-09-07, 09:50 AM I had given thought to making a dwarven battle cleric. I also used to have a half-orc battle cleric that I loved. Will that allow me to really be the primary melee? Seems that in the past when I played a rogue/cleric, the battles were half over by the time I was done buffing.

A rogue/cleric and a barbarian/cleric are 2 different animals, especially if you took more than 1 rogue level. I generally use the 1 buff only rule when it comes to battle clerics or gish PCs (not counting swift or quickened spells) - you can afford to cast 1 personal buff spell in combat as the encounter distance closes to melee. Any more and you will find that you have cost your party valuable resources (at worst) or simply wasted your PC's actions (at best). If you are the only caster or possible party buffer in the party, this breaks down; the encounter difficulty or situation can also prevent even 1 self-buff spell from being wise. Very rarely, you may even have the opportunity to cast 2 self-buffs in combat (I think this has happened 2-3 times to my 4 PCs over 7 years, all when playing down).

A different build that I like like is Barb1/Fighter1/Cleric4/Pious Templar X. Fits the melee PC requirement, gets WS and MWM at 9th level, can use cleric and paladin spells/items. Take Kord w/ the Strength and Luck domains.
Demoyn
07-09-07, 10:21 AM I have no problem playing tanks. Fighters and battle clerics are by far my favorite characters to play. The only reason I wanted to play the wizard is because I haven't seen anyone play a true utility wizard in many years (everyone plays warmages these days). Playing the character isn't a concern, as I will definitely play him as long as I can have fun with him.

As for the Barb/fighter/cleric/templar, that sounds like a lot of fun. I would change to 2 fighter/3 cleric and worship Kelanen for travel and war to maximize output. My problem here is that the only races able to do this effectively are human and half-elf, and I was trying to shy away from human and dwarf. Half-elf sucks for everything except maybe marshal and bard (or a silver-tongue rogue). Even then, though, the diplomacy bonus isn't great, because with synergy bonuses you should never fail a diplomacy check as these classes anyway.

Though now that I think about it, I could play a half-elf and move into outcast champion and take fighter substitution levels. That may be a lot of fun, though my stats would suck and I'd lose damage potential.
TWG_Prometheus
07-09-07, 10:32 AM A little bit ago, I helped someone work out a Cleric 3/Fighter 6/Cleric X build that could make a very good frontline tank. The original poster I was responding to at the time wanted to fight with a Spiked Shield, but that's entirely unnecessary for the build to work right. It would be important to emphasize to the group that you're a Fighter more than a Cleric, but it sounds like that's what your group wants anyway.

Pre-racial stats would go something like:
Str 15 / Dex 12 / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 8

The highlights:
CWI at 3rd for cheaper stat-boosters
Melee Weapon Mastery at 9th
Shield Specialization and Shield Ward interspersed throughout the build if you really want to be tanky.
Get some Pearls of Power I and you can out-of-combat heal your party using Lesser Vigor.

Uses material from PHB and PHB II primarily. Just about any race will work.

Note that it would be quite easy to improve on the build. It wasn't meant to be a finished product but a reasonable outline. Cleric 3/Fighter 6 was the primary template in order to get CWI and Melee Weapon Mastery as soon as possible.
boogahwoof
07-09-07, 03:58 PM yeh thats why hes

1 barbarian
4 fighter
5 outcast champion

everyone knows you dont stop on odd numbered fighter levels
TWG_Prometheus
07-09-07, 04:36 PM yeh thats why hes

1 barbarian
4 fighter
5 outcast champion

everyone knows you dont stop on odd numbered fighter levels

Your formatting was awfully weird on that one, though, booga. Typically we expect to see the number of levels in a class noted after the class. While what you posted was technically correct, it went against convention and you shouldn't be terribly surprised to see it misread.
Demoyn
07-09-07, 05:02 PM Ok, here's my current design, which, of course, is open to change.

Half-orc barbarian 4/fighter 1/pious templar 10

Str 15 (17)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10 (8)
Wis 14
Cha 8 (6)

All stat boosts to strength

Feats will be:

Barb 1 - Power Attack
Fighter 1 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Barb 2 - True Believer
Barb 3
Barb 4
Pious 1 - Extra Rage (or Cleave or Extend Rage)

Any thoughts or changes to this template? Will the AC or HP be so low that it's a bad idea, or will the damage output make up for that? Do I need to seriously consider improved toughness? Should I give up the movement and move into breastplate or full plate? If I do that, should I drop the dex to 12 and move the strength to 16?
rutrow424
07-09-07, 05:35 PM Ok, here's my current design, which, of course, is open to change.

Half-orc barbarian 4/fighter 1/pious templar 10

Str 15 (17)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10 (8)
Wis 14
Cha 8 (6)

All stat boosts to strength

Feats will be:

Barb 1 - Power Attack
Fighter 1 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Barb 2 - True Believer
Barb 3
Barb 4
Pious 1 - Extra Rage (or Cleave or Extend Rage)

Any thoughts or changes to this template? Will the AC or HP be so low that it's a bad idea, or will the damage output make up for that? Do I need to seriously consider improved toughness? Should I give up the movement and move into breastplate or full plate? If I do that, should I drop the dex to 12 and move the strength to 16?

I would consider dropping the Int to 6 and bumping Strength to 18 at creation. The extra skill points don't do much for you mechanically, but the extra bump up in STR feeds the build's wheelhouse. If you decide AC is too low anyway, dropping DEX to 11 and STR then to 19 becomes wise also. If you keep the Dex (or want AC), get a mithral breastplate and Gloves of Dex to max it out, and take Imp Buckler Defense
Demoyn
07-09-07, 05:46 PM True... I had the 10 (8) int from when I was originally thinking of adding some levels of outcast champion in there. I needed the extra skill point for that, so definitely put the extra points into strength.

As for improved buckler defense, I suppose I could stick with 1 level of barbarian, 2 levels of fighter, and 2 levels of rogue in order to take improved buckler defense (and extra damage and evasion). Or alternatively, I could just do the basic 1 barb/4 fighter for weapon specialization.
trollbill
07-10-07, 10:11 AM I had given thought to making a dwarven battle cleric. I also used to have a half-orc battle cleric that I loved. Will that allow me to really be the primary melee? Seems that in the past when I played a rogue/cleric, the battles were half over by the time I was done buffing.

Also, why does everyone recommend shock trooper? I've read it, and I see where it would have a few uses, but I didn't see a reason to think it was good enough for the pre-req feats. What am I missing? Do other regions (I live in the Bandit Kingdoms) use bull rush more often than us or what?

Lastly, if I'm going to make a half-orc battle cleric, I'll definitely put more points into charisma so that I can use some divine feats.

I have a Half-Orc Cleric of Kord build that is almost identical to the one Dr. Cornelius mentions (except mine is legal because it only has a 6 Int). About the only differences are that I took the Courage Domain (I won't argue Luck isn't more powerful, but it just didn't fit with my character concept and Courage has a few sweat spells.) I also took combat Reflexes for use when Enlarged or Righteous Mighted.

He is definitely the main offensive fighter in whatever group I play in. At low levels I picked up 2 PoPs so that he could both Rage and Enlarge 3 times per day. At low levels the battles take long enough I could afford to cast Enlarge Person and sometimes Bull's Strength before entering battle. He's 7th-level now and doesn't have the time for Enlarge Person, but now there are plenty of other people he ends up playing with that have things like Sudden Enlarge Person to hit him with, and potions are much more affordable. I would say he starts swinging on round 2 buffed by Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength and Rage almost 2/3s of the time. About 1/4 of the time he has enough warning to cast Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance and Protection from Evil (more for saves and control protection than AC). When he does this he is niegh unstoppable.

His biggest weakness is that he is a glass cannon. I haven't been able to afford decent armor (mithral plate) yet, so at 7th-level he is still running around in the masterwork chain shirt he bought at 1st-level. And he doesn't have a normal barbarian's hit points. So if he can't take the enemy down fast, he is likely to go down himself. Casting Bear's Endurance has saved his life twice. So far his record damage in one blow is 71 points.

Aside from buff spells he usually takes Vigors, Removes and Restorations for after the battle fixing up. He also always takes Magic Circle Against Evil because everywhere he travels he runs into people who are possessed, dominated or otherwise mentally controlled by others. Even with a 6 Int, it didn't take him long to learn the wonders of Protection from Evil and Resurgence.

He ALWAYS advertises himself as a tank rather than divine caster so that people don't confuse his role in the party. The fact that he can act as a backup divine caster is just some very nice gravy.
ThaiGQ
07-10-07, 06:19 PM Or alternatively, I could just do the basic 1 barb/4 fighter for weapon specialization.

If you're planning on going Pious Templar, then Pious Templar 3 will give you Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat, so you don't have to worry about Fighter 4.
clannagh
07-10-07, 08:49 PM actually you could dump fighter altogether if you do not mind losing a BAB.

Barb 1 - Power Attack
Cleric (Kelanon) 1 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Barb 2 - True Believer
Barb 3
Barb 4
Pious 1 - Extra Rage (or Cleave or Extend Rage)
Dr.Cornelius
07-11-07, 02:09 AM actually you could dump fighter altogether if you do not mind losing a BAB.

Barb 1 - Power Attack
Cleric (Kelanon) 1 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Barb 2 - True Believer
Barb 3
Barb 4
Pious 1 - Extra Rage (or Cleave or Extend Rage)This is a strong build. The Cleric level costs a BAB but gains WF(Greatsword), Freedom of Movement vs magical effects 1 rd/day (Travel Domain), +2 Will Save, a few 1st level spells and the ability to use divine scrolls. Knowledge(Religion) is also a class skill for Clerics making it a bit easier to get 4 ranks to qualify for PT.

A few quibbles:
Pious Templar requires BAB +5, so you need 5 levels in addition to Cleric 1.

Why bother with Barbarian levels 3 & 4? Extra Rage is superior to Rage 2/day from Barb 4 and nearly any Fighter bonus feat is better than Trap Sense +1 from Barb 3. The only advantage is 2 extra HP.

I would go with

Barb 1/Cleric 1/Fighter 4/Pious Templar X

or

Barb 1/Cleric 3/Fighter 2/Pious Templar X

or you could get really crazy and and pick up a couple of levels of Ranger and be a two weapon fighting, two-bladed sword wielding Pious Templar of Kelanen:

Barb 1/Ranger 2/Cleric 1/Fighter 2/Pious Templar X

of course, the extra multiclassing works best with Humans.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Demoyn 07-08-07, 09:44 PM	So my dwarf is out of time units for the year, and I had planned to make a wizard backup. Unfortunately it's come to my attention that without my tank, my group will have no primary melee character, so it looks like I'm going to make yet another one! My current one is a balanced form of cork. I want to at least have a little variety in my gameplay, even if I have to fill the same slot. I think this time I'll try a form of half-orc barbarian. Right now, though, I'm pretty much at a loss. I think I may want to try and take barbarian for 5 levels, then move over into some pious templar and outcast champion. I don't want to be JUST a damage machine, but I want it to be my primary focus. I think my main goal will be to mix barbarian rage with power attack and divine sacrifice. Any thoughts or suggestions? I haven't even worked out my stats yet, so I'm all ears.
boogahwoof 07-08-07, 11:25 PM	I have a friend that mixed 1 barbarian 4 fighter 5 outcast champion and now hes rolling into mennasing brute. He seems to have alot of fun with the character.
_metz_ 07-09-07, 03:41 AM	fighter 5 Though shalt not take uneven levels of fighter!
Dr.Cornelius 07-09-07, 06:50 AM	Thou shalt not take more than one, or at the very most two, levels of Barbarian. Not many reasons to take more than 4 levels of Fighter either. Have you considered a Barbarian Battle Cleric? It fits nicely into the primary melee slot, gets a much improved Will save and has a few tricks from domain abilities and spells. The character is meant to be a melee specialist, but in a pinch can cast scrolls and act as a backup cleric - which is always good. Something like this: Half-Orc Str:18 Dex:14 Con:14 Int:8 Wis:14 Cha:6 Stat bumps to Wis, skill points to Concentration 1 level of Barbarian, then straight Cleric. Feats: 1. Extra Rage 3. Power Attack 6. Improved Initiative 9. Imp. Bull Rush, retrain Imp. Init. to Shock Trooper The character concept is kind of a loner mercenary, so I went with Kelanen with Greatsword, Travel and War domains. Kord, Fahrlanghn, St.Cuthbert and a number of others work just as well. The character can also tank up by going Sword and Board or even Improved Buckler Defense with a 2-Handed weapon. After Extra Rage the feats are pretty open. CWI at 6th might be optimal if the character has TUs to burn.
Demoyn 07-09-07, 08:43 AM	I had given thought to making a dwarven battle cleric. I also used to have a half-orc battle cleric that I loved. Will that allow me to really be the primary melee? Seems that in the past when I played a rogue/cleric, the battles were half over by the time I was done buffing. Also, why does everyone recommend shock trooper? I've read it, and I see where it would have a few uses, but I didn't see a reason to think it was good enough for the pre-req feats. What am I missing? Do other regions (I live in the Bandit Kingdoms) use bull rush more often than us or what? Lastly, if I'm going to make a half-orc battle cleric, I'll definitely put more points into charisma so that I can use some divine feats.
amnuxoll 07-09-07, 09:48 AM	You should play the wizard. If you don't like the character you won't want to play him. Why doesn't one of the other members of your group start a tank? If you feel you must go tank, then perhaps start a gish? :AMN:
rutrow424 07-09-07, 09:50 AM	I had given thought to making a dwarven battle cleric. I also used to have a half-orc battle cleric that I loved. Will that allow me to really be the primary melee? Seems that in the past when I played a rogue/cleric, the battles were half over by the time I was done buffing. A rogue/cleric and a barbarian/cleric are 2 different animals, especially if you took more than 1 rogue level. I generally use the 1 buff only rule when it comes to battle clerics or gish PCs (not counting swift or quickened spells) - you can afford to cast 1 personal buff spell in combat as the encounter distance closes to melee. Any more and you will find that you have cost your party valuable resources (at worst) or simply wasted your PC's actions (at best). If you are the only caster or possible party buffer in the party, this breaks down; the encounter difficulty or situation can also prevent even 1 self-buff spell from being wise. Very rarely, you may even have the opportunity to cast 2 self-buffs in combat (I think this has happened 2-3 times to my 4 PCs over 7 years, all when playing down). A different build that I like like is Barb1/Fighter1/Cleric4/Pious Templar X. Fits the melee PC requirement, gets WS and MWM at 9th level, can use cleric and paladin spells/items. Take Kord w/ the Strength and Luck domains.
Demoyn 07-09-07, 10:21 AM	I have no problem playing tanks. Fighters and battle clerics are by far my favorite characters to play. The only reason I wanted to play the wizard is because I haven't seen anyone play a true utility wizard in many years (everyone plays warmages these days). Playing the character isn't a concern, as I will definitely play him as long as I can have fun with him. As for the Barb/fighter/cleric/templar, that sounds like a lot of fun. I would change to 2 fighter/3 cleric and worship Kelanen for travel and war to maximize output. My problem here is that the only races able to do this effectively are human and half-elf, and I was trying to shy away from human and dwarf. Half-elf sucks for everything except maybe marshal and bard (or a silver-tongue rogue). Even then, though, the diplomacy bonus isn't great, because with synergy bonuses you should never fail a diplomacy check as these classes anyway. Though now that I think about it, I could play a half-elf and move into outcast champion and take fighter substitution levels. That may be a lot of fun, though my stats would suck and I'd lose damage potential.
TWG_Prometheus 07-09-07, 10:32 AM	A little bit ago, I helped someone work out a Cleric 3/Fighter 6/Cleric X build that could make a very good frontline tank. The original poster I was responding to at the time wanted to fight with a Spiked Shield, but that's entirely unnecessary for the build to work right. It would be important to emphasize to the group that you're a Fighter more than a Cleric, but it sounds like that's what your group wants anyway. Pre-racial stats would go something like: Str 15 / Dex 12 / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 8 The highlights: CWI at 3rd for cheaper stat-boosters Melee Weapon Mastery at 9th Shield Specialization and Shield Ward interspersed throughout the build if you really want to be tanky. Get some Pearls of Power I and you can out-of-combat heal your party using Lesser Vigor. Uses material from PHB and PHB II primarily. Just about any race will work. Note that it would be quite easy to improve on the build. It wasn't meant to be a finished product but a reasonable outline. Cleric 3/Fighter 6 was the primary template in order to get CWI and Melee Weapon Mastery as soon as possible.
boogahwoof 07-09-07, 03:58 PM	yeh thats why hes 1 barbarian 4 fighter 5 outcast champion everyone knows you dont stop on odd numbered fighter levels
TWG_Prometheus 07-09-07, 04:36 PM	yeh thats why hes 1 barbarian 4 fighter 5 outcast champion everyone knows you dont stop on odd numbered fighter levels Your formatting was awfully weird on that one, though, booga. Typically we expect to see the number of levels in a class noted after the class. While what you posted was technically correct, it went against convention and you shouldn't be terribly surprised to see it misread.
Demoyn 07-09-07, 05:02 PM	Ok, here's my current design, which, of course, is open to change. Half-orc barbarian 4/fighter 1/pious templar 10 Str 15 (17) Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 (8) Wis 14 Cha 8 (6) All stat boosts to strength Feats will be: Barb 1 - Power Attack Fighter 1 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword) Barb 2 - True Believer Barb 3 Barb 4 Pious 1 - Extra Rage (or Cleave or Extend Rage) Any thoughts or changes to this template? Will the AC or HP be so low that it's a bad idea, or will the damage output make up for that? Do I need to seriously consider improved toughness? Should I give up the movement and move into breastplate or full plate? If I do that, should I drop the dex to 12 and move the strength to 16?
rutrow424 07-09-07, 05:35 PM	Ok, here's my current design, which, of course, is open to change. Half-orc barbarian 4/fighter 1/pious templar 10 Str 15 (17) Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 (8) Wis 14 Cha 8 (6) All stat boosts to strength Feats will be: Barb 1 - Power Attack Fighter 1 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword) Barb 2 - True Believer Barb 3 Barb 4 Pious 1 - Extra Rage (or Cleave or Extend Rage) Any thoughts or changes to this template? Will the AC or HP be so low that it's a bad idea, or will the damage output make up for that? Do I need to seriously consider improved toughness? Should I give up the movement and move into breastplate or full plate? If I do that, should I drop the dex to 12 and move the strength to 16? I would consider dropping the Int to 6 and bumping Strength to 18 at creation. The extra skill points don't do much for you mechanically, but the extra bump up in STR feeds the build's wheelhouse. If you decide AC is too low anyway, dropping DEX to 11 and STR then to 19 becomes wise also. If you keep the Dex (or want AC), get a mithral breastplate and Gloves of Dex to max it out, and take Imp Buckler Defense
Demoyn 07-09-07, 05:46 PM	True... I had the 10 (8) int from when I was originally thinking of adding some levels of outcast champion in there. I needed the extra skill point for that, so definitely put the extra points into strength. As for improved buckler defense, I suppose I could stick with 1 level of barbarian, 2 levels of fighter, and 2 levels of rogue in order to take improved buckler defense (and extra damage and evasion). Or alternatively, I could just do the basic 1 barb/4 fighter for weapon specialization.
trollbill 07-10-07, 10:11 AM	I had given thought to making a dwarven battle cleric. I also used to have a half-orc battle cleric that I loved. Will that allow me to really be the primary melee? Seems that in the past when I played a rogue/cleric, the battles were half over by the time I was done buffing. Also, why does everyone recommend shock trooper? I've read it, and I see where it would have a few uses, but I didn't see a reason to think it was good enough for the pre-req feats. What am I missing? Do other regions (I live in the Bandit Kingdoms) use bull rush more often than us or what? Lastly, if I'm going to make a half-orc battle cleric, I'll definitely put more points into charisma so that I can use some divine feats. I have a Half-Orc Cleric of Kord build that is almost identical to the one Dr. Cornelius mentions (except mine is legal because it only has a 6 Int). About the only differences are that I took the Courage Domain (I won't argue Luck isn't more powerful, but it just didn't fit with my character concept and Courage has a few sweat spells.) I also took combat Reflexes for use when Enlarged or Righteous Mighted. He is definitely the main offensive fighter in whatever group I play in. At low levels I picked up 2 PoPs so that he could both Rage and Enlarge 3 times per day. At low levels the battles take long enough I could afford to cast Enlarge Person and sometimes Bull's Strength before entering battle. He's 7th-level now and doesn't have the time for Enlarge Person, but now there are plenty of other people he ends up playing with that have things like Sudden Enlarge Person to hit him with, and potions are much more affordable. I would say he starts swinging on round 2 buffed by Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength and Rage almost 2/3s of the time. About 1/4 of the time he has enough warning to cast Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance and Protection from Evil (more for saves and control protection than AC). When he does this he is niegh unstoppable. His biggest weakness is that he is a glass cannon. I haven't been able to afford decent armor (mithral plate) yet, so at 7th-level he is still running around in the masterwork chain shirt he bought at 1st-level. And he doesn't have a normal barbarian's hit points. So if he can't take the enemy down fast, he is likely to go down himself. Casting Bear's Endurance has saved his life twice. So far his record damage in one blow is 71 points. Aside from buff spells he usually takes Vigors, Removes and Restorations for after the battle fixing up. He also always takes Magic Circle Against Evil because everywhere he travels he runs into people who are possessed, dominated or otherwise mentally controlled by others. Even with a 6 Int, it didn't take him long to learn the wonders of Protection from Evil and Resurgence. He ALWAYS advertises himself as a tank rather than divine caster so that people don't confuse his role in the party. The fact that he can act as a backup divine caster is just some very nice gravy.
ThaiGQ 07-10-07, 06:19 PM	Or alternatively, I could just do the basic 1 barb/4 fighter for weapon specialization. If you're planning on going Pious Templar, then Pious Templar 3 will give you Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat, so you don't have to worry about Fighter 4.
clannagh 07-10-07, 08:49 PM	actually you could dump fighter altogether if you do not mind losing a BAB. Barb 1 - Power Attack Cleric (Kelanon) 1 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword) Barb 2 - True Believer Barb 3 Barb 4 Pious 1 - Extra Rage (or Cleave or Extend Rage)
Dr.Cornelius 07-11-07, 02:09 AM	actually you could dump fighter altogether if you do not mind losing a BAB. Barb 1 - Power Attack Cleric (Kelanon) 1 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword) Barb 2 - True Believer Barb 3 Barb 4 Pious 1 - Extra Rage (or Cleave or Extend Rage)This is a strong build. The Cleric level costs a BAB but gains WF(Greatsword), Freedom of Movement vs magical effects 1 rd/day (Travel Domain), +2 Will Save, a few 1st level spells and the ability to use divine scrolls. Knowledge(Religion) is also a class skill for Clerics making it a bit easier to get 4 ranks to qualify for PT. A few quibbles: Pious Templar requires BAB +5, so you need 5 levels in addition to Cleric 1. Why bother with Barbarian levels 3 & 4? Extra Rage is superior to Rage 2/day from Barb 4 and nearly any Fighter bonus feat is better than Trap Sense +1 from Barb 3. The only advantage is 2 extra HP. I would go with Barb 1/Cleric 1/Fighter 4/Pious Templar X or Barb 1/Cleric 3/Fighter 2/Pious Templar X or you could get really crazy and and pick up a couple of levels of Ranger and be a two weapon fighting, two-bladed sword wielding Pious Templar of Kelanen: Barb 1/Ranger 2/Cleric 1/Fighter 2/Pious Templar X of course, the extra multiclassing works best with Humans.