Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maesto 03-18-07, 12:31 PM	Right... I've currently got a 15th level archmage who's about as good as I can make him. Then the rest of my characters are just fun and characterful (read: temperamental archer with no damage 11, pacifist 7, wannabespellsword 4, characterfulfeats wannabeearthdreamer 2, quarterstaff fighter 2). If they're going to make me make _another_ character for the greyhawk ruins series, I'm going to make something silly. I haven't put much thought into it, but the following seems to work, albeit somewhat stupidly. Human STR 13, DEX 17, CON 12, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 8 1. Ranger, Track, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2. Monk, Improved Grapple 3. Ranger, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Shuriken) 4. Fighter, Power Attack, +1 DEX 5. Fighter, Brutal Throw 6. Fighter, Power Throw 7. Master Thrower, Quick Draw, Palm Throw 8. Master Thrower, Evasion, +1 DEX 9. Master Thrower, Rapid Shot, Defensive Throw 10. Master Thrower, Snatch Arrows 11. Master Thrower, Weak Spot, Critical Throw 12. Exotic Weapon Master, Improved Precise Shot, Close Quarters Ranged Combat, Retrain Defensive Throw to Two With One Shot, +1 DEX 13. Fighter, Improved Rapid Shot 14. X, 15. X, Improved Two Weapon Fighting I haven't completely digested PHB2 and CS, so I'm not sure if they have anything to offer. Idea is fairly straightforward - throw shuriken, and snotloads of them. Use "Weak Spot" in combination with Power Throw to get lots of damage on each shuriken (making touch attacks and power attacking for full, essentially). Backup is a bow. Sure it won't do much damage, but it'll do something when range is > 50 feet (maximum distance I can throw a shuriken), and also against incorporeals. This build will be pathetic when fighting critters with high touch AC. I wanted to do this with a halfling, but it picked up an XP penalty early on, and the feats are quite tight. Until the party trick kicks in, it's not so effective. I tried fitting in the second monk level, but this just put off effectiveness for later, and feats just became tighter and tighter. I'm not too happy about retraining, but the EWM ability trumps the MT ability, not that it really matters. I'm not sure about two with one shot - maybe I just don't need the EWM level at all? It will lead to a lot of wasted ranks in concentration, and with int 8, there's not many skillpoints going around. A halfling version gets int 10, but the human bonus skillpoints are requivalent. Halflings, however, get a +2 bonus on all attack rolls for this build, as well as a whole lot more bonus things. The only thing they miss out on is the bonus feat, and the multiclass penalty. The latter can be avoided by taking a second monk level; the former effectively means that improved two weapon fighting is dropped and everything shifted back a bit. I guess the overall effect is a better build and improved evasion, better saves, etc, but the "I'm relatively useless" period is extended. DR may be a problem. Cold Iron and Silver are doable, Magic requires a GMW spell (get a rod of lesser extend for this and mage armour). Adamantine will suck, as shuriken are ammunition and 60 gp each or something stupid. Hopefully Power Throw will do enough damage to get through DR/Adamantine. A Golembane Scarab will help. DR/Alignment can be overcome through an align weapon spell. However, with the rate that this character will go through shuriken... No armour. Dex will be 26 at 12th level (assuming +6 item), and wisdom 16 (possibly 18) won't be trumped by any armour (exception of possibly celestial armour). Bracers of Armour/Mage Armour/Greater Mage Armour will be desired; ring of protection will also be good. Halfing gets a bonus +1. 10 base +1 small +6 GMA +8 Dex +2 Wis +2 Ring of Prot = AC 29, touch 23. Haste and a dusty rose ioun stone give +1 each, adding to touch. However, this character isn't meant to get hit all that much. Point - can you fight defensively with thrown weapons? That would give +3 AC for -4 to attack. The important part (aka the number crunching): Attack sequence for shuriken by level: 2: (+2, +2), 1d2+1 3. (+2, +2, +2), 1d2+1 4. (+4, +4, +4), 1d2+1 5. (+5, +5, +5), 1d2+1 6. (+6, +6, +6), 1d2+1 7. (+7, +7, +7, +2), 1d2 + 1d2 (Two separate lots of damage) 8. (+8, +8, +8, +3), 1d2 + 1d2 9. (+7, +7, +7, +7, +2), 1d2 + 1d2 10. (+8, +8, +8, +8, +3), 1d2 + 1d2 11. (+9, +9, +9, +9, +4), 1d2 + 1d2 (Attacks are now touch attacks) 12. (+11, +11, +11, +11, +6, +1), 1d2 + 1d2 13. (+14, +14, +14, +14, +9, +4), 1d2 + 1d2 14. (+15, +15, +15, +15, +10, +5), 1d2 + 1d2 15. (+16, +16, +16, +16, +11, +11, +6), 1d2 + 1d2 Modifiers on these include Point Blank Shot and Power Throw. No gloves of dexterity have been included. Halfling version has +2 to all attack rolls, and 1d2 becomes 1 damage. No buffs have been included, nor has masterwork wewapons. Ok, these look pretty pathetic. The damage comes from power throwing for full (level-1), but all attacks are touch attacks from level 11 onwards. Note that this is two weapon fighting, rapid shotting, and flurrying. Every attack is essentially a power attack at x2, because of palm throw, against touch ACs, because of weak spot. Including point blank shot, gloves of dex +6, and GMW +3 at level 12, and the attack sequence isn't looking too shabby. At level 13 (taking a benchmark), assuming GMW+3, power throw for 12, each "pair" of shuriken is doing 2d2+30 damage against touch ACs, for 7 attacks a round with haste. Other things I'd like to fit in: Far Shot, Weapon Spec, Weapon Mastery. Actually, should probably scrap Improved Rapid Shot for Weapon Mastery if at all possible. Ok then, that's the end of my treatise. I think I've convinced myself to take the extra monk level, drop the EWM level, and go with halfling. I'm not quite sure how this build will stack up against DR10/-, such as from the bigger elementals. Comments please! Thanks, Jolyon
cycloptic_squirrel 03-18-07, 03:05 PM	I think I've convinced myself to take the extra monk level, drop the EWM level, and go with halfling. I'm not quite sure how this build will stack up against DR10/-, such as from the bigger elementals. I think I agree with your conclusions. As for the elementals...favored enemy elementals might help. Bane:elementals bow? On another note: why are you going heavy dex? It'll certainly improve your AC, but it's not doing much for your damage... What about something like: Wood Elf STR 18, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 6, WIS 10, CHA 8 1. Fighter 1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2. Fighter 2 - Rapid Shot 3. Fighter 3 - Weapon Proficiency (Skiprock) 4. Fighter 4 - Weapon Focus (Skiprock), +1 STR 5. Fighter 5 6. Master Thrower 1 - Quick Draw, Palm Throw, Power Attack 7. Master Thrower 2 - Evasion, +1 STR 8. Master Thrower 3 - Defensive Throw 9. Master Thrower 4 - Snatch Arrows, Brutal Throw 10. Master Thrower 5 - Weak Spot, Critical Throw 11. Fighter 6 - Power Throw 12. Fighter 7 - Weapon Specialization, +1 Random Stat 13. Fighter 8 - Ranged Weapon Mastery 14. Fighter 9 15. Fighter 10 - Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting For extra fun, sub in Barbarian with extra rage at level 12! XP penalties may apply. Strength at the end is 26. Put him in full plate, and no two weapon fighting until level 15 means you can wear a sheild. AC would be: 10 (base) +11 (+3 mithril full plate) +5 (+3 heavy shield, +1 animated later on) +3 (Dex) +2 (+2 Ring of Protection) 31 - higher than the monk based build, but much lower touch AC :( This guy is useless for skills, you'll have to catch up in concentration once you hit MT. He has the benefit of being able to carry a greatsword and handle high DR monsters like other BDFs. You can also get up to level 6 by being just a regular sword and board guy. You don't get power throw until level 11, but before your attacks are touch attacks, I'm not sure you need it. You can always take fighter 6 before MT if you think it's important, that'd give you power throw at 9. Attacks, in the same pattern you gave would be: 1: (+3), 1d6+5 2: (+4, +4), 1d6+5 3. (+6, +6), 1d6+5 4. (+7, +7), 1d6+5 5. (+8, +3), 1d6+5 6. (+9, +9, +4), 1d6 + 1d6 (Two separate lots of damage) or 1d6+5 7. (+10, +10, +5), 1d6 + 1d6 or 1d6+5 8. (+11, +11, +6), 1d6 + 1d6 or 1d6+6 9. (+14, +14, +9), 1d6 + 1d6 or 1d6+6 10. (+15, +15, +10), 1d6 + 1d6 (Attacks are now touch attacks)or 1d6+6 11. (+16, +16, +11, +6), 1d6 + 1d6 (now can power throw)or 1d6+6 12. (+17, +17, +12, +7), 1d6 + 1d6 or 1d6+8 13. (+20, +20, +15, +10), 1d6 + 1d6 or 1d6+10 14. (+21, +21, +16, +11), 1d6 + 1d6 or 1d6+10 15. (+20, +20, +20, +15, +15, +10), 1d6 + 1d6 or 1d6+10 This assumes no belt of strength, but does assume point blank range. I'm not sure this build compensates for the lower number of attacks. Assuming again power throw for full, GMW +3, belt +6, haste, and hopefully a flame arrow: at level 12, everything's a touch attack, to hit: +12/+12/+12/+7/+2; damage: each pair does 2d6+50+2d6 fire (scratch that, actually about 2d6+34+26 fire, no strength damage when using palm throw or weak spot) and they might richocet. Cold Iron and Silver are a big problem here; you also have to get the DM to agree that skiprocks count as "little weapons", though at 1/4 lb. each, I'd be suprised at any who would disagree. You could also sub in shruiken for skiprocks if that's more your style. You could switch two-weapon fighting feats for specialization/mastery, if you want more attacks earlier. The whole build doesn't really pick up until level 9-11, but you can serve as a pretty standard BDF if you pick up a longsword/greatsword. So I think I've taken your build completely away from what you were going for. Sorry. It's your fault though, you inspired this madness. ;) End result: they're about the same for damage, but you've got more attacks... sigh. With the BDF capabilities, I think it comes down to a play style preference. Hopefully I've given you an idea or two, though. ;)
copper_wyrmling 03-18-07, 04:32 PM	From memory, palm throw and weak spot both remove the Strength bonus to damage. Sorry cycloptic :(
Alpha_Nerd 03-18-07, 05:45 PM	Ranged weapon mastery adds 20ft to range increment, so it's a must for every thrower build. It triples the Shuriken's max range.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-18-07, 07:24 PM	From memory, palm throw and weak spot both remove the Strength bonus to damage. Sorry cycloptic :( And what of it!? Are you implying that builds I suggest should actually conform to some sort of rule set!? Who are you to tell me what I can and can't do!? :pbbbtt: OK, so I think I knew that once upon a time, but got carried away. Let's see, that takes the damage to about... 2d6+30+2d6 fire. Huh. Same as the first build, just less attacks! :banghead: Specialization and Mastery would bump it by 8, but also delay the extra attacks. The richochet ability might help make up for it. Maybe not. I think I'd still stick with this build, but at this point it's more a matter of play style preference. Thanks Copper. When I make mistakes I'd much rather know about them. :P
Maesto 03-18-07, 11:16 PM	Hmm, good point about the ranged weapon mastery, I'd missed that part of the feat. Far shot is no longer necessary with that effect (in fact, that effect is so much better than far shot), and with weapon spec + ranged weapon mastery instead of rapid shot and improved rapid shot, although an attack is given up (~ 35 damage given up there), there's +8 to damage on every other attack, which is 40 damage if only 5 hit, so it's certainly worth giving up rapid shot. Furthermore, it's a +4 bonus to hit, comparatively, and this build needs all it can get. I'll see how I can squeeze it in a post again in a bit...
Maesto 03-19-07, 03:09 AM	Ok, I tried redoing things as a halfling, and it just didn't work =( Halfling STR 13, DEX 17, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 8 1. Ranger, Track, Point Blank Shot 2. Monk, Improved Grapple 3. Monk, Precise Shot, Deflect Arrows, Evasion 4. Ranger, Two Weapon Fighting, +1 DEX 5. Fighter, Weapon Focus (Shuriken) 6. Fighter, Power Attack, Brutal Throw 7. Master Thrower, Quick Draw, Palm Throw 8. Master Thrower, Improved Evasion, +1 DEX 9. Master Thrower, Power Throw, Defensive Throw 10. Master Thrower, Snatch Arrows 11. Master Thrower, Weak Spot, Critical Throw 12. Fighter, Improved Precise Shot, +1 DEX 13. Fighter, Weapon Specialisation 14. Exotic Weapon Master, Close Quarters Ranged Combat, retrain Defensive Throw for something else 15. X, Ranged Weapon Mastery Benefits: You pick up improved evasion from Master Thrower, you've got a +2 bonus on all thrown weapon attacks (small + halfling bonus), and your saves are better (halfling + 2nd level of monk). Deflect Arrows is in there early on also. Weak Spot will work against just about everything. Problems: You don't get weapon spec and ranged weapon mastery until far too late. Although this build works great at level 15, you're just missing out on a lot until you get there. Also, there's no room for rapid shot or improved two weapon fighting. Some of this can be fixed by dropping the second level of monk, but then you've got an xp penalty from 6th level until retirement. Other solution: Start out as a human, and get reincarnated into a halfling. Chances of this are, what, 12%? You get to keep your feat, which is essentially what you want, then you pick up weapon spec and ranged weapon mastery at level 12, before getting improved precise shot at 13. So, unfortunately, this just isn't feasible =( It could work as a cohort, however, at higher levels.
Maesto 03-19-07, 03:51 AM	This build is for a human, and works a fair bit better than the halfling build, at least I think... Human STR 13, DEX 17, CON 12, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 8 1. Ranger, Track, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2. Monk, Improved Grapple 3. Fighter, Weapon Focus (Shuriken), Power Attack 4. Fighter, Brutal Throw, +1 DEX 5. Fighter 6. Fighter, Weapon Specialisation (Shuriken), Power Throw 7. Master Thrower, Quick Draw, Palm Throw 8. Master Thrower, Evasion, +1 DEX 9. Master Thrower, Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing), Defensive Throw 10. Master Thrower, Snatch Arrows 11. Master Thrower, Weak Spot, Critical Throw 12. Ranger, Rapid Shot, Improved Precise Shot, +1 DEX 13. Exotic Weapon Master, Close Quarters Combat, Retrain Defensive Throw to Two with One Blow 14. Fighter 15. Fighter, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting The only problem I can see is that there are no free feats anywhere until 15th level really, and this build greatly benefits from having TWF and ITWF, simply because the attacks all stack up. The monk level adds flurry, which is rather useful, and the second ranger level adds rapid shot, which is also rather useful, but the feat at 9th level is a dead feat if four levels of fighter aren't taken before it. I fiigured that maxing out master thrower was more important that getting another attack, and so the ranger level is at 12th. At 12th level, there are 5 attacks a round, not including haste. TWF and ITWF give extra attacks, and so it might be worth pushing the EWM level back to 15th to get one of those at 14th, depending on how often Two with One Blow will come into play. Given that it's possible to double your number of attacks with Two with One Blow, I figured it's probably better in there sooner. It's also possible to put the EWM level in earlier, and so the ranks in concentration aren't wasted (and there will be a lot of ranks in concentration), but this simply pushes back everything, and the build only really comes into it's prime around level 11. 12th level attack sequence with no items and no buffs goes something like (+15, +15, +15, +10, +5), 2d2+8+2*power attack, against touch ACs. If you can pick up an ioun stone of strength +2, then go for it - it allows you to be hit with a reduce person and still keep power attack, while at the same time giving a +2 bonus on all attacks. Saves are decent - base saves at level 12 are +10/+10/+4, and decent wisdom helps with the will saves. AC doesn't require much gold, and neither do weapons. Items that help a lot are statboost items - gloves +6, wisdom amulet +4, strength ioun stone +2, and hopefully some way to get con +2 or +4. Resistance boosting items are affordable because of the lack of shield/armour/weapon. Probably want to get a bow of some sort, as you're still a very good archer. Possibly merciful could be good, because you're not great at doing subdual. Sacred/Holy would also be good; DR hurts thrown weapons. Not many skill points, but enough to kick around. Tumble should be good, as should balance, climb, jump, etc. Might as well put a whole lot of ranks into survival also, just for kicks. The build isn't great, but it will consistently get up to around 200 damage/round at level 12. Double that if there are two critters standing next to each other at level 13. Level 15 should see 300 damage/round hit reasonably often. I think this is my Greyhawk Ruins character. Cheers, Jolyon
Japangirl 03-20-07, 12:39 AM	You won't see nearly that much damage. An attack routine at +15 as the top won't hit about 50% of the time starting APL 12 or so, and the lower ones even less. A routine of +21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 isn't even nearly good enough at APL 16, I've noticed. The only items I have increasing my chance to hit are Gloves of Dex +2 and Boots of Speed, in the above example.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 12:57 AM	You won't see nearly that much damage. An attack routine at +15 as the top won't hit about 50% of the time starting APL 12 or so, and the lower ones even less. A routine of +21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 isn't even nearly good enough at APL 16, I've noticed. The only items I have increasing my chance to hit are Gloves of Dex +2 and Boots of Speed, in the above example. I think you are forgetting these are touch attacks.
Japangirl 03-20-07, 01:03 AM	Ah. I was thinking of Sneaky Shot, which requires a move action to do and thus denies a full round attack afterwards. Carry on! However, do remember that when you use Weak Spot you do not add your Str to damage.
Maesto 03-20-07, 01:07 AM	Oh, I'm thoroughly convinced that these aren't nearly good enough to hit regular ACs. But as Jay mentions, these are touch attacks, and while taking a -11 penalty to hit to actually get the damage going doesn't do wonders for the attack bonuses, you don't need many buffs or items to get things working. If it all falls through and the touch attack trick just isn't working, you can always go back to your bow. Assuming a +1 Mighty+2 Comp Longbow, the attack sequence goes (+17, +17, +12, +7) for 1d8+5 damage, which is the same as my current level 12 archer. The difference is that the archer has a whole lot of other tricks and abilities that this character won't have. What I'm saying is that at the very least, this character will be able to fall back on archery, and be decent enough at it.
Maesto 03-20-07, 01:08 AM	Yup, got that. All damage is coming from power throw, weapon spec, and ranged weapon mastery. Bardsong, GMW, point blank shot, and flame arrow will increase the damage stupidly also.
Timlagor 03-20-07, 07:45 AM	Expect some variation on whether the touch attack + Power Throw works. While it unambiguously does so by the rules, you won't always be able to get a judge to see that and those who do will still consider you an unutterable cheese-weasel.
Maesto 03-20-07, 08:43 AM	Then I'm just a high falutin archer. Ah well. Alternatively, I could point out to the judge that I could just use a spiked chain and get a comparative amount of damage. That's not actually the one I'm worried about - the most ambiguous part of it is that you can power throw with a light weapon, which is likely to have more judges up in arms.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 10:02 AM	Then I'm just a high falutin archer. Ah well. Alternatively, I could point out to the judge that I could just use a spiked chain and get a comparative amount of damage. That's not actually the one I'm worried about - the most ambiguous part of it is that you can power throw with a light weapon, which is likely to have more judges up in arms. Power Throw is not specificially restricted to a certain weight class of weapons like Power Attack is. It works with all thrown weapons.
Timlagor 03-20-07, 03:39 PM	The amount of damage is completely irrelevent. it offends the sensibilities to have people power throwing with touch attacks that don't get strength to damage. The light weapon is a non-issue to my mind but I concede that there are people like that
Lupo 03-20-07, 04:19 PM	The amount of damage is completely irrelevent. it offends the sensibilities to have people power throwing with touch attacks that don't get strength to damage. The light weapon is a non-issue to my mind but I concede that there are people like that but despite its name "power throw" the bonus is derived from converting BAB to damage, there is no strength involved apart from needing a strength of 13 for taking the prerequisite "power attack". the bonus therefore is NOT a strength bonus at all, so it can be applied to "weak spot" attacks. that is no more a sillyness than the follow-up attack on a tripped character. comparing these two, the tripper ability is definitely more silly especially as "weak spot" combined with "power throw" can only gained at moderately high level where other combinations of feats produce similar or even better effects, whereas one can build a tripper at first level. ciao martin m.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 04:22 PM	but despite its name "power throw" the bonus is derived from converting BAB to damage, there is no strength involved apart from needing a strength of 13 for taking the prerequisite "power attack". the bonus therefore is NOT a strength bonus at all, so it can be applied to "weak spot" attacks. that is no more a sillyness than the follow-up attack on a tripped character. comparing these two, the tripper ability is definitely more silly especially as "weak spot" combined with "power throw" can only gained at moderately high level where other combinations of feats produce similar or even better effects, whereas one can build a tripper at first level. ciao martin m. I don't see the similarity between improved trip and power throw here...
Lupo 03-20-07, 04:25 PM	I don't see the similarity between improved trip and power throw here... just a comment on the "offends the sensibilities". ciao martin m.
Sieylianna 03-20-07, 08:20 PM	And along the offend the sensibilities line, if your DM isn't happy, you're going to have a substandard round. If you are real unlucky, the DM will be mortally offended by your cheese, and refuse to run the table. I've seen it happen. Ed
Lupo 03-20-07, 09:31 PM	And along the offend the sensibilities line, if your DM isn't happy, you're going to have a substandard round. If you are real unlucky, the DM will be mortally offended by your cheese, and refuse to run the table. I've seen it happen. Ed things like this happen about one out of ten rounds, mostly no real big issues, mostly minor differences on interpretation of a certain spell or feat. if a dm is adamant about any such issue - that is important for my character to run it like i see it - i normally take it, play my character without the trick in question, make a mental note to avoid said dm and if the issue is really troublesome inform the convention coordinator and other players about it :( . if any dm is not fine with NOT using a trick he declared "ueber cheese" than he should not dm in lg :rolleyes: . ciao martin m. ps: as a dm, i too have some sore spots: monk to barbarian alignment shifts without at least a good story to tell, abuse of silence as a "counterspell" anything, paladins . . . with no hint of knowledge about their code, occult slayers without a good story [and yes, i have an occult slayer cohort with a cleric, but at least i have a good story to cover it :)]
Maesto 03-20-07, 11:13 PM	If any DM complains too much, I'll probably remind them of how useless this character is for the first 10 levels. Maybe I'll just stick to being an archer through all of that. I'll also remind them of the spiked chain half orc barbarian reckless raging, or the mounted combat characters, and ask them what their problem with those builds is. One way of being a more useful character at lower levels is to dump dex, leaving it at the minimum you can get away with while still taking point blank and precise shot, although you then can't pick up improved precise shot. Instead, put more points into strength, so that your shuriken actually do some damage when you throw them, and use your strength to throw things using Brutal Throw. However, this does kill your armour class, as you can't wear armour without losing the monk flurry ability.
Maesto 03-20-07, 11:15 PM	Anyway, why is it that I get barely any comments on my builds? I've put two or three up here now, and basically all I've gotten is "watch out for DMs who hate your character" Is it because I do such a good job? :D
Lupo 03-20-07, 11:36 PM	Anyway, why is it that I get barely any comments on my builds? I've put two or three up here now, and basically all I've gotten is "watch out for DMs who hate your character" Is it because I do such a good job? :D they are more or less what i also came up with a similar build for that trick pony, the question is whether it is a one-trick-pony or at least decent survivable ;) actually the variations in this build is limited, as one needs to include some very fixed key steps. you have to throw a lot of tangelfoot bags and alchemistical fire and acid until you really can benefit from the build ;) ciao martin m.