Question regarding Cleric use of shields [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question regarding Cleric use of shields [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gaelforcwynd
11-28-06, 01:35 PM Can a Cleric cast spells with a somatic dimension while wielding a buckler or shield?
trollbill
11-28-06, 01:53 PM According to the rules, to use a somatic component, you must have at least one hand free. Your shield hand is free if you are using a buckler or light shield, but not a heavy one. Of course, you can use the hand that isn't holding a shield as long as it isn't holding anything else.

In reality, though, I haven't seen very many DMs enforce this rule.
UMiskatonic
11-28-06, 03:04 PM Some of our DMs enforce this one.

Light shields are very popular w/clerics for this reason.

Alternatively, use a heavy shield and a spiked gauntlet. You can pull out that melee weapon when you need it,
Gaelforcwynd
11-29-06, 04:07 AM According to the rules, to use a somatic component, you must have at least one hand free. Your shield hand is free if you are using a buckler or light shield, but not a heavy one. Of course, you can use the hand that isn't holding a shield as long as it isn't holding anything else.

In reality, though, I haven't seen very many DMs enforce this rule.

Could you use a buckler or light shield while wielding a potentially two-handed weapon such as a bastard sword? If so, would you lose the shield bonus?
clik_ml
11-29-06, 05:23 AM Could you use a buckler or light shield while wielding a potentially two-handed weapon such as a bastard sword? If so, would you lose the shield bonus?

You could use the buckler, lose it's shield bonus and still have the -1 penalty to attack (that happens if you attack with an arm that uses the buckler).

With the light shield you simply cannot use a weapon with that arm.
I've bolded the relevant excerpts from:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm

Buckler
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel
You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

It should be noted that there is a feat called Improved Buckler Defense (from Complete Warrior) that lets you apply the buckler's AC whilst using that off-hand to wield a weapon. It still doesn't negate the -1 penalty, and further some DMs interpret that as only when wielding two weapons, one in each hand, rather than a single two-handed weapon, so you would encounter some table variation if going that route.
clannagh
12-04-06, 05:46 PM Its pretty simple really.

Firstly .. the divine focus can hang around your neck .. you do not need to hold it unless "presenting it to undead". This has been FAQed. (Divine focuses attached to bucklers shields are another matter altogother and we do not need to go there at present)

Tower shield or heavy shield and weapon .. forget spells with somatic component unless you drop the weapon.

Light shield and weapon .. you cannot do somatic actions with the light shield hand but you can pass the weapon to the light shield hand \ and use your sword hand for the somatics.

Buckler .. you can free make somatic actions with the buckler hand while still holding your weapon in the other hand (if two handed you need to let go with the buckler hand and hold it single handed) but most GM's would rule you lose the buckler AC bonus for the rounds you are casting.
clannagh
12-04-06, 05:49 PM According to the rules, to use a somatic component, you must have at least one hand free. Your shield hand is free if you are using a buckler or light shield, but not a heavy one. Of course, you can use the hand that isn't holding a shield as long as it isn't holding anything else.

In reality, though, I haven't seen very many DMs enforce this rule.

not quite

With a light shield you can only hold items in that hand so that rules out somatic actions .. clerics with light shields pass the weapon temporarily to the shield hand and cast with the primary hand. Buckler is the preferred wepaon for a combat casting cleric .. mithral if you are a theurge or arcane hierophant.
trollbill
12-05-06, 09:52 AM With a light shield you can only hold items in that hand so that rules out somatic actions

That is subject to interpretation since one can interpret being able to hold something as having your hand free.

.. clerics with light shields pass the weapon temporarily to the shield hand and cast with the primary hand.

Again, subject to interpretation since the rules don't spell out what sort of action swapping hands is. Some DMs state doing so is a move action.
clannagh
12-05-06, 07:18 PM That is subject to interpretation since one can interpret being able to hold something as having your hand free.

Again, subject to interpretation since the rules don't spell out what sort of action swapping hands is. Some DMs state doing so is a move action.

No .... not open to interpretation as the FAQ is a core book for LG.

The light shield doesn't give you a free hand for spellcasting

It goes on to say that you can switch hands with your weapon and it is "reasonable to assume" that this is equivalent to drawing a weapon, move action with no AoO, leaving a standard action to cast with.
Dr.Cornelius
12-20-06, 05:55 AM Tower shield or heavy shield and weapon .. forget spells with somatic component unless you drop the weapon.
I think you are parsing the mechanics a little close here. My understanding (and I am open to counter-example) is that Clerics are intended to be able to effectively use heavy shields without having to put their weapon on the ground to cast a somatic spell. Give the poor cleric some credit - what about a hook/hangar on the shield, or a belt hook or a lanyard? I can think of any number of reasonable mechanics that would allow the Cleric to easily switch between weapon and spellcasting on his turn.

The key is that the Cleric cannot start his action armed, cast a somatic spell and then end armed again. But I would allow a Cleric to cast and then draw. Or hang weapon on a belt hook and then cast, with the weapon available to be drawn the following turn.

Unless the heavy shield / somatic requirement is spelled out in black and white, I will continue to play the way we always have - without extreme rules parsing.
CSHunt68
12-20-06, 09:44 AM I think you are parsing the mechanics a little close here. My understanding (and I am open to counter-example) is that Clerics are intended to be able to effectively use heavy shields without having to put their weapon on the ground to cast a somatic spell. Give the poor cleric some credit - what about a hook/hangar on the shield, or a belt hook or a lanyard? I can think of any number of reasonable mechanics that would allow the Cleric to easily switch between weapon and spellcasting on his turn.

The key is that the Cleric cannot start his action armed, cast a somatic spell and then end armed again. But I would allow a Cleric to cast and then draw. Or hang weapon on a belt hook and then cast, with the weapon available to be drawn the following turn.

Unless the heavy shield / somatic requirement is spelled out in black and white, I will continue to play the way we always have - without extreme rules parsing.
You can use a heavy shield. Just be prepared to drop whatever you're holding in your other hand as a free action, OR put it away - sheathe it, hang it on a belthook or hangar, or whatever - as a move action that draws AoOs.
A cleric can cast and then draw, since drawing is a move action, or a free action when combined with a regular move with a BAB of +1 or higher.
That's it.
It's not a question of what YOU would allow, it's what the RULES allow. To follow what's explicitly written in the Core books isn't "extreme rules parsing".
Iswald
12-20-06, 09:56 AM I think you are parsing the mechanics a little close here. My understanding (and I am open to counter-example) is that Clerics are intended to be able to effectively use heavy shields without having to put their weapon on the ground to cast a somatic spell. Give the poor cleric some credit - what about a hook/hangar on the shield, or a belt hook or a lanyard? I can think of any number of reasonable mechanics that would allow the Cleric to easily switch between weapon and spellcasting on his turn.

Clerics can use heavy shields while casting. But, they still need a hand free for somatic components. If you wanted, you could take a 5' step, put the weapon away (which provokes), and cast a spell. The next round, they could draw the weapon as a move action (or quickdraw it), take a 5' step and make a single attack. Switching is possible. There's no reason why it has to be easy. If you want easy, just use a buckler.
clannagh
12-20-06, 07:28 PM I think you are parsing the mechanics a little close here. My understanding (and I am open to counter-example) is that Clerics are intended to be able to effectively use heavy shields without having to put their weapon on the ground to cast a somatic spell. Give the poor cleric some credit - what about a hook/hangar on the shield, or a belt hook or a lanyard? I can think of any number of reasonable mechanics that would allow the Cleric to easily switch between weapon and spellcasting on his turn.

The key is that the Cleric cannot start his action armed, cast a somatic spell and then end armed again. But I would allow a Cleric to cast and then draw. Or hang weapon on a belt hook and then cast, with the weapon available to be drawn the following turn.

Unless the heavy shield / somatic requirement is spelled out in black and white, I will continue to play the way we always have - without extreme rules parsing.

Sheathing a weapon and then casting, or casting with no weapon and then drawing one are clearly both fine.

The significant point is that sheathing and then redrawing a weapon is two move actions but if you can find a way of sheathing a weapon as a free action then all the better for you ... as far as the rules go this is a cut and paste from the current version of the FAQ page 8 .....

My DM says that my cleric has to drop his morningstar
to cast spells. Is he right?

Yes and no. To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component,
you must gesture freely with at least one hand. (Player’s
Handbook, page 140) A cleric (or any caster, for that matter)
who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on
the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a
somatic component (which includes most spells in the game).
To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe
his weapon.

Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or
light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one
hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the
buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand. The
light shield doesn’t give you a free hand for spellcasting, but
since you can hold an item in the same hand that holds the light
shield, you could switch your weapon to that hand to free up a
hand for spellcasting. (You can’t use the weapon while it’s held
in the same hand as your shield, of course.)

The rules don’t state what type of action
is required to switch hands on a
weapon, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the
equivalent of drawing a weapon (a move action that doesn’t
provoke attacks of opportunity).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gaelforcwynd 11-28-06, 01:35 PM	Can a Cleric cast spells with a somatic dimension while wielding a buckler or shield?
trollbill 11-28-06, 01:53 PM	According to the rules, to use a somatic component, you must have at least one hand free. Your shield hand is free if you are using a buckler or light shield, but not a heavy one. Of course, you can use the hand that isn't holding a shield as long as it isn't holding anything else. In reality, though, I haven't seen very many DMs enforce this rule.
UMiskatonic 11-28-06, 03:04 PM	Some of our DMs enforce this one. Light shields are very popular w/clerics for this reason. Alternatively, use a heavy shield and a spiked gauntlet. You can pull out that melee weapon when you need it,
Gaelforcwynd 11-29-06, 04:07 AM	According to the rules, to use a somatic component, you must have at least one hand free. Your shield hand is free if you are using a buckler or light shield, but not a heavy one. Of course, you can use the hand that isn't holding a shield as long as it isn't holding anything else. In reality, though, I haven't seen very many DMs enforce this rule. Could you use a buckler or light shield while wielding a potentially two-handed weapon such as a bastard sword? If so, would you lose the shield bonus?
clik_ml 11-29-06, 05:23 AM	Could you use a buckler or light shield while wielding a potentially two-handed weapon such as a bastard sword? If so, would you lose the shield bonus? You could use the buckler, lose it's shield bonus and still have the -1 penalty to attack (that happens if you attack with an arm that uses the buckler). With the light shield you simply cannot use a weapon with that arm. I've bolded the relevant excerpts from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm Buckler This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it. It should be noted that there is a feat called Improved Buckler Defense (from Complete Warrior) that lets you apply the buckler's AC whilst using that off-hand to wield a weapon. It still doesn't negate the -1 penalty, and further some DMs interpret that as only when wielding two weapons, one in each hand, rather than a single two-handed weapon, so you would encounter some table variation if going that route.
clannagh 12-04-06, 05:46 PM	Its pretty simple really. Firstly .. the divine focus can hang around your neck .. you do not need to hold it unless "presenting it to undead". This has been FAQed. (Divine focuses attached to bucklers shields are another matter altogother and we do not need to go there at present) Tower shield or heavy shield and weapon .. forget spells with somatic component unless you drop the weapon. Light shield and weapon .. you cannot do somatic actions with the light shield hand but you can pass the weapon to the light shield hand \ and use your sword hand for the somatics. Buckler .. you can free make somatic actions with the buckler hand while still holding your weapon in the other hand (if two handed you need to let go with the buckler hand and hold it single handed) but most GM's would rule you lose the buckler AC bonus for the rounds you are casting.
clannagh 12-04-06, 05:49 PM	According to the rules, to use a somatic component, you must have at least one hand free. Your shield hand is free if you are using a buckler or light shield, but not a heavy one. Of course, you can use the hand that isn't holding a shield as long as it isn't holding anything else. In reality, though, I haven't seen very many DMs enforce this rule. not quite With a light shield you can only hold items in that hand so that rules out somatic actions .. clerics with light shields pass the weapon temporarily to the shield hand and cast with the primary hand. Buckler is the preferred wepaon for a combat casting cleric .. mithral if you are a theurge or arcane hierophant.
trollbill 12-05-06, 09:52 AM	With a light shield you can only hold items in that hand so that rules out somatic actions That is subject to interpretation since one can interpret being able to hold something as having your hand free. .. clerics with light shields pass the weapon temporarily to the shield hand and cast with the primary hand. Again, subject to interpretation since the rules don't spell out what sort of action swapping hands is. Some DMs state doing so is a move action.
clannagh 12-05-06, 07:18 PM	That is subject to interpretation since one can interpret being able to hold something as having your hand free. Again, subject to interpretation since the rules don't spell out what sort of action swapping hands is. Some DMs state doing so is a move action. No .... not open to interpretation as the FAQ is a core book for LG. The light shield doesn't give you a free hand for spellcasting It goes on to say that you can switch hands with your weapon and it is "reasonable to assume" that this is equivalent to drawing a weapon, move action with no AoO, leaving a standard action to cast with.
Dr.Cornelius 12-20-06, 05:55 AM	Tower shield or heavy shield and weapon .. forget spells with somatic component unless you drop the weapon. I think you are parsing the mechanics a little close here. My understanding (and I am open to counter-example) is that Clerics are intended to be able to effectively use heavy shields without having to put their weapon on the ground to cast a somatic spell. Give the poor cleric some credit - what about a hook/hangar on the shield, or a belt hook or a lanyard? I can think of any number of reasonable mechanics that would allow the Cleric to easily switch between weapon and spellcasting on his turn. The key is that the Cleric cannot start his action armed, cast a somatic spell and then end armed again. But I would allow a Cleric to cast and then draw. Or hang weapon on a belt hook and then cast, with the weapon available to be drawn the following turn. Unless the heavy shield / somatic requirement is spelled out in black and white, I will continue to play the way we always have - without extreme rules parsing.
CSHunt68 12-20-06, 09:44 AM	I think you are parsing the mechanics a little close here. My understanding (and I am open to counter-example) is that Clerics are intended to be able to effectively use heavy shields without having to put their weapon on the ground to cast a somatic spell. Give the poor cleric some credit - what about a hook/hangar on the shield, or a belt hook or a lanyard? I can think of any number of reasonable mechanics that would allow the Cleric to easily switch between weapon and spellcasting on his turn. The key is that the Cleric cannot start his action armed, cast a somatic spell and then end armed again. But I would allow a Cleric to cast and then draw. Or hang weapon on a belt hook and then cast, with the weapon available to be drawn the following turn. Unless the heavy shield / somatic requirement is spelled out in black and white, I will continue to play the way we always have - without extreme rules parsing. You can use a heavy shield. Just be prepared to drop whatever you're holding in your other hand as a free action, OR put it away - sheathe it, hang it on a belthook or hangar, or whatever - as a move action that draws AoOs. A cleric can cast and then draw, since drawing is a move action, or a free action when combined with a regular move with a BAB of +1 or higher. That's it. It's not a question of what YOU would allow, it's what the RULES allow. To follow what's explicitly written in the Core books isn't "extreme rules parsing".
Iswald 12-20-06, 09:56 AM	I think you are parsing the mechanics a little close here. My understanding (and I am open to counter-example) is that Clerics are intended to be able to effectively use heavy shields without having to put their weapon on the ground to cast a somatic spell. Give the poor cleric some credit - what about a hook/hangar on the shield, or a belt hook or a lanyard? I can think of any number of reasonable mechanics that would allow the Cleric to easily switch between weapon and spellcasting on his turn. Clerics can use heavy shields while casting. But, they still need a hand free for somatic components. If you wanted, you could take a 5' step, put the weapon away (which provokes), and cast a spell. The next round, they could draw the weapon as a move action (or quickdraw it), take a 5' step and make a single attack. Switching is possible. There's no reason why it has to be easy. If you want easy, just use a buckler.
clannagh 12-20-06, 07:28 PM	I think you are parsing the mechanics a little close here. My understanding (and I am open to counter-example) is that Clerics are intended to be able to effectively use heavy shields without having to put their weapon on the ground to cast a somatic spell. Give the poor cleric some credit - what about a hook/hangar on the shield, or a belt hook or a lanyard? I can think of any number of reasonable mechanics that would allow the Cleric to easily switch between weapon and spellcasting on his turn. The key is that the Cleric cannot start his action armed, cast a somatic spell and then end armed again. But I would allow a Cleric to cast and then draw. Or hang weapon on a belt hook and then cast, with the weapon available to be drawn the following turn. Unless the heavy shield / somatic requirement is spelled out in black and white, I will continue to play the way we always have - without extreme rules parsing. Sheathing a weapon and then casting, or casting with no weapon and then drawing one are clearly both fine. The significant point is that sheathing and then redrawing a weapon is two move actions but if you can find a way of sheathing a weapon as a free action then all the better for you ... as far as the rules go this is a cut and paste from the current version of the FAQ page 8 ..... My DM says that my cleric has to drop his morningstar to cast spells. Is he right? Yes and no. To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must gesture freely with at least one hand. (Player’s Handbook, page 140) A cleric (or any caster, for that matter) who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a somatic component (which includes most spells in the game). To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe his weapon. Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand. The light shield doesn’t give you a free hand for spellcasting, but since you can hold an item in the same hand that holds the light shield, you could switch your weapon to that hand to free up a hand for spellcasting. (You can’t use the weapon while it’s held in the same hand as your shield, of course.) The rules don’t state what type of action is required to switch hands on a weapon, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the equivalent of drawing a weapon (a move action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity).