Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Painlord 07-14-07, 12:15 PM	Hey-- I'm new at this game. Very new and willing to learn. Can someone 'splain to me why the Radiant Servant of XXX is considered to be so good? My first (and only) char is a nice Cleric (lvl 4) and I'm plotting my path...I've never seen the high APLs, but I've read the descript of the Rad Serv and I'm not seeing what makes him so good. Can anyone enlighten me? If you can, be specific...I'm new. Thanks. Painlord
The_Jester 07-14-07, 12:26 PM	Clerics only get two things as they level up: spells and greater TU. No other special abilities. PrC work by sacrificing some special abilities while providing alternates. Fighters and wizards give up bonus feats for abilities they couldn't normally get, etc. Some PrC work better for low-ability classes (like sorcerers) by providing all the same abilities as the base class AND the PrC abilities. So a PrC cleric can do everything a cleric can but more. Radiant Servant is the strongest example of this being offing quite a few new powerful abilities and increasing abilities the class already has.
Painlord 07-14-07, 01:05 PM	So a PrC cleric can do everything a cleric can but more. Radiant Servant is the strongest example of this being offing quite a few new powerful abilities and increasing abilities the class already has. So what you're saying to me is that +Healing and +Turning Undead are really good at higher APLs? And the access to marital aids, uhm, I mean Martial weapons really matters? Radiance matters? But this PrC is less worth it if I my god doesn't have the Healing Domain, then some of the Rad Servs powers are less good? I can't even access the Power Healing or Maximize Healing, eh? Thanks for enlightening my soul...poor Pelor needs to train his cleric better. -Painlord
Lupo 07-14-07, 01:11 PM	Hey-- I'm new at this game. Very new and willing to learn. Can someone 'splain to me why the Radiant Servant of XXX is considered to be so good? My first (and only) char is a nice Cleric (lvl 4) and I'm plotting my path...I've never seen the high APLs, but I've read the descript of the Rad Serv and I'm not seeing what makes him so good. Can anyone enlighten me? If you can, be specific...I'm new. Thanks. Painlord normally prestige classes comes at the investment of some feat or skill or other feature one wouldn't normally take, "radiant servant of mighty rotten milk" gives up near to nothing, (ok, 1 hp/level) and needs a feat that is really useful with all those "turn attempt fueled" feats and GETS basically the features of a cleric PLUS all the goodies of the prestige class. full martial weapon proficiency, extra greater turning, radiance, divine health, empower healing, aura of healing, a bonus domain, etc. etc. compare this to some other prestige classes and you know why the class is to good to be true ;) ciao martin m. edit: even without the healing domain power - and this one isn't as useful as some want it to be as some DMs would grant the power only to domain slot spells - the prestige class is the single best prestige class for a cleric.
Painlord 07-14-07, 01:56 PM	Thank you Lupo and Jester...I am warm from basking in your wisdoms. I shall ponder. -Painlord
zoinks69 07-14-07, 05:37 PM	I'll echo the other posters: Most PrC's are "weighted" -- that is, the 'power' of the class is proportional to the investment of skills, feats, etc. Generally speaking if you find a PrC that seems 'powerful' it's going to have some sort of handicap -- Endurance feat, lots of skill ranks (making you take it later rather than earlier), things that you wouldn't have made the investment in if it wasn't for the sake of qualifying for the class. Radiant Servant *was* kinda like this when it first came out -- taking Extra Turning was considered a hindrance for clerics (who don't get many feats and had nothing to burn those turns on). Worshipping Pelor would have been a hindrance to some as he doesn't have the particularly power-gamey domains (Luck, Travel, etc) and isn't the recognized religion in some regions. However, since then there have been a ton of feats added that are powered off of turn attempts (and some of since been taken out). So Extra Turning is a given in many cleric builds, taking away that "cost" from the PrC. The class is also open to all the deities with Sun domain, so you aren't 'stuck' with Pelor (though he's a strong choice). So, in a nutshell: Pros: - Next to no 'buy-in' cost - Full spell progression - Full turn undead progression (and lots of Greater Turns) - Somewhat ridiculous healing abilities for Pelor/Nolaites - Save bumps - Extra domain (or two) Cons: - Uhh...d6 HD? I think you'd be hard-pressed to find another PrC that gives you so many good things while keeping all your already good things going -- most are going to rob you of spellcasting progression at minimum.
Donald_Cannith 07-14-07, 08:16 PM	Warpriest comes close in terms of power..unfortunately you have to give up caster levels which is no fun. Sacred Exorcist is also nice but comes with the cost of skill points and does not actually make your turning any better. Radiant servasnt gets it al lgves up next to nothing(especially if you havea high CON score)
Lupo 07-14-07, 08:23 PM	Warpriest comes close in terms of power..unfortunately you have to give up caster levels which is no fun. Sacred Exorcist is also nice but comes with the cost of skill points and does not actually make your turning any better. Radiant servasnt gets it al lgves up next to nothing(especially if you havea high CON score) yea, i would even take d4s if any prestige class for druids would be only three quarter as good ;) ciao martin m.
Mattastrophic 07-15-07, 01:04 PM	Don't forget you have to give up a domain choice to Sun. Not every cleric is a turner. You're also giving up some BAB, too. Also, RadiantServant6 is terrible, as Maximize Healing is much worse than Empower Healing. If you actually strip it down, and you have a build that doesn't turn and doesn't have Healing domain, then Radiant Servant is suboptimal. -Matt
_metz_ 07-15-07, 08:20 PM	Don't forget you have to give up a domain choice to Sun. Not every cleric is a turner. You're also giving up some BAB, too. Also, RadiantServant6 is terrible, as Maximize Healing is much worse than Empower Healing. If you actually strip it down, and you have a build that doesn't turn and doesn't have Healing domain, then Radiant Servant is suboptimal. -Matt Yes, but assuming you want to make a turning healing cleric (which is the point of PrCs, they suit WHAT you want to make) then there is no opportunity cost as the prerequisites would have been taken anyways, and the benefits are greater than more cleric levels for your specialisation.
Donald_Cannith 07-16-07, 12:16 AM	if you are not as turner/healer, contemplative is a good caster based class. Also, Church Inquistor is nice for another alternate take on cleric. Divine Oracle is another good caster based part.
control freak 07-16-07, 12:32 AM	there are very few base classes that dont benifit from some of the more powerful PrCs, the only possible one would be rogue, and maby maby MABY druid generalist other then those 2 they usualy need adjustments for the powergamerie players, and 2 levels of RSoP gives you divine health, +3 to fort and will saves and +1 BAB and 1 more gives +1 reflex saves and the aura and a BAB untill you hit the 5th level theres no reason not to take a class level in it, if you meet the pre reqs i was hopeing as a side note to get a PrC level prior to entering this class (as level 6 is kind of dead for cleric but it would have to be a full turning, full casting first level of the PrC -but its like this beyond casting for clerics they gain the following each level saves, BAB, turning -heres what RSoP gets Better saves, slightly less BAB, WAAAY better turning, divine health, will save aura, and if you did infact take healing domain it gets really stupid
clannagh 07-16-07, 12:48 AM	there are very few base classes that dont benifit from some of the more powerful PrCs, the only possible one would be rogue, and maby maby MABY druid generalist other then those 2 they usualy need adjustments for the powergamerie players, and 2 levels of RSoP gives you divine health, +3 to fort and will saves and +1 BAB and 1 more gives +1 reflex saves and the aura and a BAB untill you hit the 5th level theres no reason not to take a class level in it, if you meet the pre reqs i was hopeing as a side note to get a PrC level prior to entering this class (as level 6 is kind of dead for cleric but it would have to be a full turning, full casting first level of the PrC -but its like this beyond casting for clerics they gain the following each level saves, BAB, turning -heres what RSoP gets Better saves, slightly less BAB, WAAAY better turning, divine health, will save aura, and if you did infact take healing domain it gets really stupid If you have LUCK domain then Fortunes Friend form Scoundrel is viable.
control freak 07-16-07, 01:00 AM	at best fortunes friend is a 2 level flavor dip, its definately not power gamery in terms of sheer power, but rerolling the 5th failed save vs death effects can be nice, also luck domain isnt able to use luck rerolls to go off again if fortunes friend gave up 1 caster level not 3 it would be a very very decent class but as it is you cant sacrafice 3 caster levels and remain effective unless it is for something absolutely over powered (ordained champion?) which this is clearly not
KarmaInferno 07-16-07, 07:54 AM	if you are not as turner/healer, contemplative is a good caster based class. Also, Church Inquistor is nice for another alternate take on cleric. Divine Oracle is another good caster based part. I've found my Church Inquisitor has broken more mods than any Radiant Servant I've ever seen. Being immune to damn near any mind control, and instantly seeing through almost all illusions and disguises has seriously derailed some plotlines in adventures. Walking into the opening encounter and seeing right away that the 'mayor' that is hiring you is really a demon in disguise kinda cuts the story short right there. Being able to say, "No, that invisible rogue does NOT get to sneak attack me, I see him just fine!" is nice, though. :D -karma
_metz_ 07-16-07, 07:58 AM	I've found my Church Inquisitor has broken more mods than any Radiant Servant I've ever seen. Being immune to damn near any mind control, and instantly seeing through almost all illusions and disguises has seriously derailed some plotlines in adventures. Walking into the opening encounter and seeing right away that the 'mayor' that is hiring you is really a demon in disguise kinda cuts the story short right there. Being able to say, "No, that invisible rogue does NOT get to sneak attack me, I see him just fine!" is nice, though. :D -karma I expect my Earth Dreamer will do the same thing, once he gets a couple more levels. Perhaps not to the same degree, but still the odd mod will be broken.
smerwin29 07-16-07, 08:16 AM	Yes, but assuming you want to make a turning healing cleric (which is the point of PrCs, they suit WHAT you want to make) then there is no opportunity cost as the prerequisites would have been taken anyways, and the benefits are greater than more cleric levels for your specialisation. All of this is true. There is one opportunity costs that no one has mentioned, and if you are in a campaign heavy on role-playing, it can be a large cost. You are supposed to be forced to worship only Pelor. In LG, they allowed several other deities to qualify for the PrC, and LG is not heavy on roleplaying like a home campaign could be (i.e. you could add opportunity costs for Pelor worshippers). I have seen a lot of Radiant Servants in LG, and I have yet to see one that is truly overpowered WHEN COMPARED TO SOME OTHER PCs.
_metz_ 07-16-07, 08:34 AM	I have seen a lot of Radiant Servants in LG, and I have yet to see one that is truly overpowered WHEN COMPARED TO SOME OTHER PCs. But not compared to other clerics, no? This isn't a 'Are wizards better' thread...
Mommy was an Orc 07-16-07, 10:36 AM	But not compared to other clerics, no? This isn't a 'Are wizards better' thread... There is some opportunity cost compared to other clerics. Radiant Servant is definitely a top-tier PrC, but turning is something difficult to maintain, even for them. And the prereqs can make Concentration a problem for Int-dumping Clerics. I think there are slightly more powerful Cleric builds when Divine Metamagic is eliminated and you have no intent of being the heal first cleric - Domain Spontaneity becomes more of a top tier Cleric feat, and the truly nasty domains tend to not be available to Radiant Servants. A Cleric with 2-3 Domain Spontaneities and the right domains can effectively become a Mystic Theurge light, except with maintaining full caster level and only needing one primary stat.
smerwin29 07-16-07, 10:44 AM	Well, the initial question was "I'm new at this game. Very new and willing to learn. Can someone 'splain to me why the Radiant Servant of XXX is considered to be so good?" So the question was general. The answers have been just about spot on in describing why the RSoP is better than a base cleric: more benefits for very few (and mostly inconsequential) givebacks. But the question of why they are so good could be taken to mean "Why are they so much better than clerics compared to why other PrCs are so much better than the base classes that precede them?" And answers to that question are valid as well. When I am playing, DM, or writing an adventure, and I see certain prestige classes or combinations, I just roll my eyes because they are so obvious overpowered in terms of the game as a whole: they break mods and steamroll all but the most ridiculous encounters. The RSoP, for me, do not cause the eye-rolling. Yes, they are unbalanced when compared to other clerics of the same level. But they are not unbalanced in light of the game as a whole, and I am more concerned with that.