Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrystalBlue 08-13-07, 07:22 PM	Under Radiant Servant, second level, it says that all Healing domain spells are empowered...there's a problem here...a friend of mine is a Radiant Servant of Ehlonna...but doesn't have the domain (obviously). Did he just get screwed out of the Radiant Servant's cool power?
Jay_Ibero_911 08-13-07, 07:38 PM	Under Radiant Servant, second level, it says that all Healing domain spells are empowered...there's a problem here...a friend of mine is a Radiant Servant of Ehlonna...but doesn't have the domain (obviously). Did he just get screwed out of the Radiant Servant's cool power? Pretty much. No healing domain, no powered up healing.
CrystalBlue 08-13-07, 07:51 PM	Grrrr...I'ma thinking we made a mistake on the build now...
clannagh 08-13-07, 07:59 PM	I have a cleric of Atroa (no heal domain) that is going radiant servant. It basically means you are a turning RSoP rather than a healing one and should emphasise turning related feats. To be honest a level 10 RSoP with augmented healing doesnt really need the empowered healing .. its a nice little bonus but the diffence between a mass cure light healing an average of 25 hp or so versus 28 hp is not huge. (even on a cure serious you only pick up 6 or so HP on average)
AOSOL 08-13-07, 08:24 PM	Radient servant is for Pelorites by Pelorites. I always approach diety specific pretiege classes that way. It improves the character over all.
clik_ml 08-13-07, 08:26 PM	My wife has a Radiant Servant of Azor'Alq (war/sun). There's no screwing going on, just a wee bit less healing. The bonus domain and greater turning are the big deal on a radiant servant in my opinion. Radiance is kind of cute as well.
CSHunt68 08-13-07, 09:47 PM	I have a cleric of Atroa (no heal domain) that is going radiant servant. It basically means you are a turning RSoP rather than a healing one and should emphasise turning related feats. To be honest a level 10 RSoP with augmented healing doesnt really need the empowered healing .. its a nice little bonus but the diffence between a mass cure light healing an average of 25 hp or so versus 28 hp is not huge. (even on a cure serious you only pick up 6 or so HP on average) Are you not multiplying the +1/level by 1.5 for the empowered bit? Because, if you do, it's quite a bit more than you've noted. It's been talked about before, but the consensus seemed to be that it SHOULD be multiplied.
clannagh 08-13-07, 11:21 PM	Are you not multiplying the +1/level by 1.5 for the empowered bit? Because, if you do, it's quite a bit more than you've noted. It's been talked about before, but the consensus seemed to be that it SHOULD be multiplied. Then the consensus is in my opinion just wrong. The ability clearly states "as though by the empower spell feat" and according to SRD ... Benefit: All variable , numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Now if you are a powergaming optimiser you may be able to twist that to claim that the cleric level and augment components "vary" with level .. but personally that is clearly NOT what the metamagic ability does. I would need to see an errata or FAQ before I allowed empower to work that way.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 12:00 AM	Then the consensus is in my opinion just wrong. The ability clearly states "as though by the empower spell feat" and according to SRD ... Now if you are a powergaming optimiser you may be able to twist that to claim that the cleric level and augment components "vary" with level .. but personally that is clearly NOT what the metamagic ability does. I would need to see an errata or FAQ before I allowed empower to work that way. If you actually take the time to look at the PHB with the actual source of the feat you would see the example it gives uses magic missile and explicitly multiplies the the 1d4+1 and not just the 1d4.
ShinAkuma2 08-14-07, 12:33 AM	Now if you are a powergaming optimiser you may be able to twist that to claim that the cleric level and augment components "vary" with level .. but personally that is clearly NOT what the metamagic ability does. I would need to see an errata or FAQ before I allowed empower to work that way. Indeed, a CLW that does 1d8+5 healing produces a variable number from 6 to 13. Empower would make it 9-19 healing. This is quite specifically spelled out in the feat itself.
clannagh 08-14-07, 12:42 AM	Indeed, a CLW that does 1d8+5 healing produces a variable number from 6 to 13. Empower would make it 9-19 healing. This is quite specifically spelled out in the feat itself. Indeed, but where there is a conflict between text and an example the text takes precedence. The real problem is the term variable is not defined anywhere. Now there is room to argue that the example supports the empowerment of "variable" components that vary for reasons other than a dice roll component (in the case of magic missile, vary by caster level) but I see this as definitely open to table variation.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 12:48 AM	Indeed, but where there is a conflict between text and an example the text takes precedence. The real problem is the term variable is not defined anywhere. Now there is room to argue that the example supports the empowerment of "variable" components that vary for reasons other than a dice roll component (in the case of magic missile, vary by caster level) but I see this as definitely open to table variation. But there is no conflict between text and example. The example explains what is meant by the text. The text is a very tiny bit vague, and the example makes it crystal clear, because there is no way to easily convey the idea WITHOUT using an example. The text could mean one of 2 things, and the example makes it clear which of those 2 things is meant...
clannagh 08-14-07, 01:03 AM	But there is no conflict between text and example. The example explains what is meant by the text. The text is a very tiny bit vague, and the example makes it crystal clear, because there is no way to easily convey the idea WITHOUT using an example. The text could mean one of 2 things, and the example makes it clear which of those 2 things is meant... hmmm well I will have to look into it a bit further, generally variable means components that require a dice roll. My initial thoughts are a consequence of this ruling if accepted has the unintended consequence that components of rays that vary by caster level now do not count when calculating critical damage. edit: and also damage in melee from smite .. which is also a variable component with caster level.
Jay_Ibero_911 08-14-07, 01:07 AM	hmmm well I will have to look into it a bit further, generally variable means components that require a dice roll. My initial thoughts are a consequence of this ruling if accepted has the unintended consequence that components of rays that vary by caster level now do not count when calculating critical damage. Well first of all, "variable component" is not explicitly defined in game terms, but in general terms is something like X where X is any number from Y-Z. In the magic missile example, you have 1d4+1, whose variable component has a range of 2-5. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at with the critical hit thing however.
clannagh 08-14-07, 01:18 AM	Well first of all, "variable component" is not explicitly defined in game terms, but in general terms is something like X where X is any number from Y-Z. In the magic missile example, you have 1d4+1, whose variable component has a range of 2-5. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at with the critical hit thing however. basically one ot two things are going on here 1) people are just misunderstanding the mathematical principles because only the d4 component is variable not the +1 . 2) the d4 is variable because its a dice component and somewhat counter intuitively the "+1" component is also variable because it changes with caster level. My inclination is still towards option 1) but I will look into it a bit further.
CrystalBlue 08-14-07, 08:14 AM	Darn it. :( And here I was just looking for answers to our radiant servant build... Well, I don't think I'll worry about it much. He much more wants to use his domain spell-slots for plant and sun domain spells. Barkskin is fun when cast by a cleric of Ehlonna. :D
Timlagor 08-14-07, 08:30 AM	basically one ot two things are going on here 1) people are just misunderstanding the mathematical principles because only the d4 component is variable not the +1 . 2) the d4 is variable because its a dice component and somewhat counter intuitively the "+1" component is also variable because it changes with caster level. My inclination is still towards option 1) but I will look into it a bit further. You are creating an artificial distinction between "components". There is only one variable for magic missile and it happens to be "1d4+1". Without the example it would be ambiguous and I might well agree with you but the example is there and it is a valid interpretation of the text.
zoinks69 08-14-07, 08:52 AM	Darn it. :( And here I was just looking for answers to our radiant servant build... Well, I don't think I'll worry about it much. He much more wants to use his domain spell-slots for plant and sun domain spells. Barkskin is fun when cast by a cleric of Ehlonna. :D As to Radiant Servant -- I personally find the other options are good, if not better, than Pelor. Throwing the big heals (via Pelor or Nola) is fine, but the extra domain and full spell and turning progression are more than most PrC's provide, and Pelor doesn't quite pack enough good punch for me in the domain department. Sun domain is a necessity. Plant is great (add in Domain Spontaneity for lots of Barkskins and Walls of Thorns later on (potentially adding Transdimensional into the mix)). I also like either Good (for Krack bead crafting) or Purification (for +1 on dispels and Recitation as a 3rd level/7th level Quickened).
Lupo 08-14-07, 09:14 AM	Darn it. :( And here I was just looking for answers to our radiant servant build... Well, I don't think I'll worry about it much. He much more wants to use his domain spell-slots for plant and sun domain spells. Barkskin is fun when cast by a cleric of Ehlonna. :D the problems with "healing domain" and "radiant servant" are: a) you don't get any fancy spells not already on your cleric's spell list. b) the +1 caster on healing spells is just pathetic +1 HP (or +10 on a "heal", but even there it normally doesn't make a big difference) and still caps with max caster levels for each spell c) the radiant servant ability is - for the majority of DMs - only on spells from your domain slots, not even for "domain spontaneity" spells. since "augment healing" is now available for level 1 clerics the whole healing domain is only for those arcane casters that go "arcane disciple" to get a minor secondary healer at the table. so ones "bark skin" or even more "entangle" will be much better then some minor healing HP boost. "entangle" gives a cleric a battlefield control normally not available. later "wall of thorns" kicks in :) "radiant servant of mighty rotten milk" is the best open prestige class for a cleric if you can get it take it ;) ciao martin m.
clik_ml 08-14-07, 10:58 AM	basically one ot two things are going on here people are just misunderstanding the mathematical principles Not at all. You're just looking too closely. The effect of a spell, say Magic Missle is a missle that does variable damage from 2-5 (for a level 1 casting). After you compute that variable damage, and it is empowered, you multiply it by 1.5. There is no powergaming or weaseling going on. This is how the examples of the feat are given, and there is no reason to conclude that the feat is intended to function any other way. If the wording of empower was only variable parts or components of effects, and the example excluded the +1 on a magic missle, then you'd have something. But as is, if the end effect is at all variable, then you empower the sum total of the numeric effect. The RAW and the intent are very clear.
Zanzibax 08-14-07, 11:10 AM	basically one ot two things are going on here 1) people are just misunderstanding the mathematical principles because only the d4 component is variable not the +1 . 2) the d4 is variable because its a dice component and somewhat counter intuitively the "+1" component is also variable because it changes with caster level. My inclination is still towards option 1) but I will look into it a bit further. The range of the variable damage for the magic missile is 2-5. This variable damage is *expressed* as 1d4+1, but this is the equation for the entire variable...call it "x" for the damage variable. x=1d4+1 Empower = 1.5*x Empowered is 3-7 (rounding down) The non-variable components of the magic missile spell are the number of missiles, the number of targets, and the range. I hope that helps.
KarmaInferno 08-14-07, 12:21 PM	It's much easier to assume if the final result is what counts, not the individual components. It also agrees with the example given that way. -karma
GeorgeFHarris 08-14-07, 02:55 PM	As to Radiant Servant -- I personally find the other options are good, if not better, than Pelor. Throwing the big heals (via Pelor or Nola) is fine, but the extra domain and full spell and turning progression are more than most PrC's provide, and Pelor doesn't quite pack enough good punch for me in the domain department. Sun domain is a necessity. Plant is great (add in Domain Spontaneity for lots of Barkskins and Walls of Thorns later on (potentially adding Transdimensional into the mix)). I also like either Good (for Krack bead crafting) or Purification (for +1 on dispels and Recitation as a 3rd level/7th level Quickened). My Priestess of Ehlenestra (Cle6/RSoe5) has never missed the healing domain. Of course, she has augmented healing, and just bought a Meta-Magic Rod, Empower, Lesser. So here Insignia of Healing should do (1d8+10(CL 10 Max)+6 (Augment Healing))*1.5 or 1d8*1.5+24. She has Plant, Sun, and Glory Domains. And is considering Contemplative to pick up either the Purification or Celerity domains. GH GH