Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nagareth 05-19-07, 12:59 AM	Hello I'm Nagareth. At one point in time I was looking into a Occult Slayer Archer. I was going to go Wood Elf Ranger 2 / Fighter 8 / Occult Slayer 5. A powerful build (casters look out). I've done some thinking and I'd like to keep my listen, spot, hide, move silently, knowledge nature, and survival skills up to par. I'm the kind of player that shows up to Living Greyhawk each week with a new character. This is because: 1. The old character is dead 2. The old character lacks personality and depth. I find that many Greyhawk characters are min-maxed and built for power. I don't mind power but I find that the more I get caught up in power builds, and min-maxing the least I enjoy a truely rounded character. (my character's classes and stats have make sense with my view of the character, and min maxed lack that flavour) I need some advice on how I can find a balance between power and roleplaying. The Character I invision is a Wood Elf named Aldarion (Elvish for "Son of the Forest"). He has shoulder length red hair (tied back in braids) and bright blue eyes. I want him to have knowledge of creatures (nature) and the ability to survive in the woods (survival). I see him as more of a sneak around in the shade (hide & move silently) kind of ranger. He also is really keen and hard to get a drop on (listen & spot). Very Scout like. I want to make him an archer. All I need is a build that doesn't have too much multiclassing that will drop me behind in those 6 skills. I also don't see him as stupid or un-wise. However I do invision him as withdrawn, verbally blunt (but honest) and fairly serious (this elf is not aloof but not uptight). So an 8 chrisma is okay. I'd be very grateful for advice that would help me build a fairly enjoyable core character that will not be left in the dust by the 100 damage dealing a round min-maxed, power built, rule elitist character.
Swiftbrook 05-19-07, 07:18 AM	Hello I'm Nagareth. Welcome to the boards! I'm sure we can help. I'm not the best min/maxer but I try to play a ranger archer that is well rounded and brings more than combat to the table. Here are some ideas. I was going to go Wood Elf Ranger 2 / Fighter 8 / Occult Slayer 5. I've done some thinking and I'd like to keep my listen, spot, hide, move silently, knowledge nature, and survival skills up to par. Wood Elf is an excellent race for Ranger, but there are a lot of them out there. To be different you might want to try a different race, but I'll assume you stay with Wood Elf. The 8 levels in fighter is going to kill your build because of the lack of skill points and penalty you'll pay for cross class skills. As I understand it, even if you have a level of Ranger, when you level as a Figher, you pay for skills like Survival as cross class skills. I'd be very grateful for advice that would help me build a fairly enjoyable core character that will not be left in the dust by the 100 damage dealing a round min-maxed, power built, rule elitist character. I've found that an archers ability to deal damage is an equipment issue as much or more than a feat/class issue. Keep that in mind. Things to Avoid A penalty to Int (you need all your skill points) A penalty to Con (you need hit points when things come out of the walls in the back of the party Things you Need A good Dex (rangers have light armor and you can't have an armor penalty) A good Wis (most of your skills are Wis based) a decent Str (not critical but I wouldn't go below a 14. 16 is good because it's only 6 points for a wood elf) If you want to use your animal companion for more than a tag along, plan for it now. Cha is the skill with Handle Animal. I have an 8 and it works out fine with just the -1 penalty. What region are you from? Check what local meta-orgs you might want to join, there benifits and requirements. Some meta-orgs give access to Elf Ranger Substitution levels which you might want to consider before your first adventure. If you really want to keep your skill points maxed, avoid multi-classing as much as possible. Ranger level 9 you gain Evasion, very nice and there are some nice 1st and 2nd level Ranger spells: Arrow Mind (1st), Swift Haste (2nd) are a few I use regularly. So you might want to have a 14 in Wis by 4th level for the bonus spells. The more you multi-class, the longer it takes to get to some classes cooler features. All that said, you wont get Weapon Specialization without mutli-classing somewhere. Others will give you specific builds. You can also search the boards for some good builds. I'm building a Ranger 12/??? 3, currently at 9th level. Generally, I have something to contribute to any adventure. Remember, many adventures are investigative with only one combat. Those are the games when the min/max combat types are board stiff. -Swiftbrook
jimmy_dowdall 05-19-07, 07:54 AM	take one level of scout and the swift hunter feat watch ur damage potential rocket
Swiftbrook 05-19-07, 09:01 AM	Recommended Base Stats: Str 4 points = 12 + 2 = 14 (+2) Dex 10 points = 16 + 2 = 18 (+4) Int 4 points = 12 - 2 = 10 (+0) Con 4 points = 12 - 2 = 10 (+0) Wis 4 points = 12 (+1) Cha 0 points = 8 (-1) That leaves you 2 points to put into any stat but Dex and get a +2 stat boost (+1 bonus). Int = One more skill point Wis = Better skill check, better Will save, no need for stat boost item for 2nd level bonus spells or 3rd level spells. Con = +1 HP/Level, better fort save Str = +1 TH & +1 Dmg in melee Cha = no penalty to Cha skills I took the +2 in Str. I don't think I'd do that again because I don't get into melee very often and +1 Dmg per arrow is helpful, but not as big as some people say. -Swiftbrook
Timlagor 05-19-07, 11:05 AM	Why would you build a Wood Elf with less than 16 Strength?
Swiftbrook 05-19-07, 11:55 AM	Why would you build a Wood Elf with less than 16 Strength? 1) Favored Class: Ranger 2) Flavor - does every wood elf need a 16+ strength? 3) You're right, I'd have a wood elf with a 16 str. -Swiftbrook
Maesto 05-19-07, 12:12 PM	It's not obvious when making an archer, but strength is actually more important than dex. You end up hitting most of the time, but doing little damage. Just my experience.
Nagareth 05-19-07, 02:02 PM	I was thinking Str 16 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 Skills: Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Survival, and Knowledge nature. I'm not planning on using "ride". Horse riding archer (even though that would be awesome and effective) is not how I really see Aldarion. I'm new to Living Greyhawk so I'm not sure if those skills are going to be used much or not.
Timlagor 05-19-07, 07:27 PM	For reference my Archer (non-Ranger) started out with 20Str, 16Dex (and not much else): I plan to hit Str 26 around 8th (with Belt) and then spend seriously on the bow (after the Boots of Speed).
Shieldhart91 05-19-07, 09:00 PM	But your other stats leave a lot more to be desired. Personally, I don't play rangers. More importantly, the only thing critical about an Archer that matters is all of the bonus feats for bow-shooting and the skill points. Other then spells, there's not a whole lot that will help you from the back of the party. I'd keep at least a STR 14, DEX 16 (preferably higher) and a relatively...OKAY Con...around 12 or so. Wisdom? Probably wanting in the 'hood of 12, just so you can cast Ranger spells if you go that high in level. You aren't as split as a Monk for ability scores, but you can manage. I find anything that can hit three times per round with 1d8+2-3 adds up over time, and there's probably an exotic weapon (Greatbow?) that you could spend some money on to wield. Oversize the greatbow...and huzzah!
Arvagor 05-19-07, 09:47 PM	take one level of scout and the swift hunter feat watch ur damage potential rocketSwift Hunter requires 3 levels min. of Scout...
Nagareth 05-20-07, 02:08 AM	Can someone post the Scout and Swift Hunter class stats for me (like the BAB, Saves, Skills, and Special things) I only have the PHB, DMG, MM, and the complete warrior.
Bold 05-20-07, 10:25 AM	It's not obvious when making an archer, but strength is actually more important than dex. You end up hitting most of the time, but doing little damage. Just my experience. Agreed. And due to the issue of bow replacement, I think it's be better to start with an 18 STR (if a wood elf) and a 16 DEX, and increase the DEX with your level bumps. That way you can buy a comp. lonbow (STR +4) right from the start, and use it for a loooong time.
TWG_Prometheus 05-20-07, 08:25 PM	Can someone post the Scout and Swift Hunter class stats for me (like the BAB, Saves, Skills, and Special things) I only have the PHB, DMG, MM, and the complete warrior. Swift Hunter is a feat, not a class. We can't really post them due to legal-ish stuff. Talking about them is fine. Posting them is not. I prefer Ranger 1/Scout X over Scout 3/Ranger X Swift Hunter builds, though. If you want well-rounded, you'll probably like Ranger 1/Scout X or Ranger 2/Scout X better as well. Scout is in Complete Adventurer. Swift Hunter is in Complete Scoundrel. If you want to use those rule options in Living Greyhawk, you'll need to purchase the books. Go to your local gamestore and take a look at the Scout class and Swift Hunter feat before deciding whether to buy the books.
Nagareth 05-21-07, 12:43 AM	Thank You :) That was very helpful information. Most people just shot builds, feats, and classes my way and I have no idea what they are talking about so again. Thank you
CdrcJsn 05-21-07, 04:39 AM	Also note that a single classed ranger is still a viable option. The spells per day the ranger gets might be paltry, but quite a bit of them are focused on archery type stuff (arrow mind for example) and can substitute for many of the trick archery feats/PrC abilities out there. But I'd like to reiterate what someone else pointed out earlier about strength. You need high strength to be really effective as an archer. At high/mid levels, you will always hit even if you emphasize strength over dexterity (though you don't want to neglect dex). edit - you'll especially want to check out the swift action low level ranger spells in the SpC.
jstorrie 05-21-07, 05:49 AM	Strength is super-important, so prioritize it. You don't ever have trouble hitting as an archer. In your other thread I suggested Ranger 11 / Fighter 4. Take a look at it. Weapon Spec / Mastery goes a long way towards upping your damage output.
Nagareth 05-21-07, 10:37 AM	I will look into the ranger 11 / fighter 4. I was thinking about some new stats. Str 17 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8
Maesto 05-21-07, 12:46 PM	Stats look good - bump strength three times, and aim for a belt of giant strength +4. Get gloves of dex +4 as well. Will work well with ranger11/fighter4. If you see an ioun stone which grants +2 wisdom, grab it =) One last thing - decide what you want to do with your animal companion. Some people take natural bond (CV), which bumps your animal companion up a bid (works really well for rangers), although this is not open by default. With 11 ranger levels, you'd end up being a druid 8 for animal companion purposes, which is enough to get a direbat companion. Aerial archery is fun =) (consider plunging shot (CW)).
CdrcJsn 05-21-07, 05:42 PM	One last thing - decide what you want to do with your animal companion. Some people take natural bond (CV), which bumps your animal companion up a bid (works really well for rangers), although this is not open by default. With 11 ranger levels, you'd end up being a druid 8 for animal companion purposes, which is enough to get a direbat companion. Aerial archery is fun =) (consider plunging shot (CW)). Yeah, mounted Archers are pretty sick. At low levels, before you get a dire bat (or the NONC natural bond feat), a simple horse companion will be greatly beneficial. Being able to maneuver and still take your full attack is great, and many people create convoluted builds just to achieve that ability. You won't be able to use your mount on all adventures, but when you do, it will be really beneficial.
Nagareth 05-21-07, 06:09 PM	Nah Aldarion is a foot archer. He doesn't do the horse and bow thing (although it is very effective). Now alot of people are saying that str is better or dex is better in the end the stats I'm looking for are: Ranger 11 / Fighter 4 Str 18 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 or Str 16 Dex 20 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 Skills: Knowledge nature Hide Move Silently Listen Spot Survival Feats: Not too sure yet but I know I'll need "Point Blank Shot" and "Precise Shot". Hell maybe "Rapid Shot" to.
Swiftbrook 05-21-07, 07:11 PM	Greatbow & Greatbow, composite (2d10 damage) from Complete Warrior are now Open access. You'll need to burn a feat for exotic weapon proficiency or take the -4 to hit penalty. Worth considereing. -Swiftbrook
Swiftbrook 05-21-07, 09:03 PM	It's not obvious when making an archer, but strength is actually more important than dex. You end up hitting most of the time, but doing little damage. Just my experience. My experience has been the opposite. (funny how the dice roll). I've needed every point I put into Dex. It's my To Hit, AC, and Reflex. There have already been a handfull of times that Evasion (9th Ranger) and a passed Reflex save have litterally saved my life. Also, it seems like I'm still missing a my target a fair amount of the time. For example if I'm firing 4 arrows and my 4 extra point in dex (+2 bonus) allows one more arrow to hit, lets say 3 instead of 2, I'm doing an extra 1d8 +6 damage for the extra arrow vs. your +4 damage with extra strength. If you are hitting more frequently, (if you play down a lot or just roll better), then the extra damage from Str may be worth it. Also, I have faced more than my share of incorporals! I just got some gauntlets that allow me to hit them.:cool: For me to hit: + 9 BAB, +4 Dex, +1 Gloves (when not fighting incorporals),+1 PBS, +1 Bow = +16/+16/+11 or +17/+17/+17/+12 hasted with Improved Rapids Shot. Yes an average of +27 to hit and I'm still missing targets. Damage: 1d8 base, +1 bow, +3 Str Composite, + 1 PBS, +1d6 Cold +Sacred when it applies. That's my experience. -Swiftbrook
Nagareth 05-22-07, 12:52 AM	I know this has nothing to do with D&D but on May 21st I passed my Occupational First Aid Level 3. It was a course of 12 people and only 3 people passed. Half the class were already thicket holders. (You have to renew your thicket every 2 years) In 1st was a 28 year old paramedic ( 8 years of experince ) named Jason. In 2nd was a 18 year old (me) with no pervious trama experience. In 3rd was a 34 year old named ty ( 4 years experience ) Unfortunately the other 9 did not make it. Also on May 22nd is my B-Day I'll be turning 19 years. I just feel very proud about that and wanted to voice it. Anyway I'm not sure I should take the Greatbow because I'll not have alot of feats and I can do more damage with 1 freed up feat than a weapon that can do 2 more max damage than a normal bow.
Timlagor 05-22-07, 08:30 AM	For me to hit: + 9 BAB, +4 Dex, +1 Gloves (when not fighting incorporals),+1 PBS, +1 Bow = +16/+16/+11 or +17/+17/+17/+12 hasted with Improved Rapids Shot. Yes an average of +27 to hit and I'm still missing targets. Damage: 1d8 base, +1 bow, +3 Str Composite, + 1 PBS, +1d6 Cold +Sacred when it applies. Hmm.. 9th level: +9 BAB +3 Dex +1 Weapon Focus +1 GWF +2 RWMastery +1 PBS (I wouldn't usually include this) +1 Magic = +18 to hit. (can't remember if I'll have IRS at this point -but without it I get the same hasted attacks) 1d8 +8 Str (assumes Belt which will arrive about this time) +2 WSPec +2 RWM +1 Magic +1 PBS = 1d8 + 14 (usually significantly more than yours) with interesting magic still to come cheaply and GWSpec 3 levels away. Now it's true that your guy probably has more skill points and maybe other options but I doubt I really need the extra Dex for Archery. I'd say that you need more Dex the fewer Feats you are spending on Archery but it still looks like you didn't put enough into Strength (6bp?..or is he not a Wood Elf?).
Swiftbrook 05-22-07, 04:29 PM	Now it's true that your guy probably has more skill points and maybe other options but I doubt I really need the extra Dex for Archery. I'd say that you need more Dex the fewer Feats you are spending on Archery but it still looks like you didn't put enough into Strength (6bp?..or is he not a Wood Elf?). My Build "Swiftbrook" himself :) : Str 6 points = 14 + 2 = 16 (+3) Dex 10 points = 16 + 2 + 1 bump (8th) = 19 (+4) Int 4 points = 12 - 2 = 10 (+0) Con 4 points = 12 - 2 = 10 (+0) Wis 4 points = 12 + 1 special AR + 1 bump (4th) = 14 (+2) Cha 0 points = 8 (-1) Feats 1: PBS, Track 2: Rapids Shot (ranger sytle) 3: Percise Shot, Endurance 6: Natural Bond, Manyshot 9: Improved Rapids Shot Not the best Archer build, but Swiftbrook is more than just an archer. The 4th level stat bump was placed into Wisdom because shortly before hitting 4th level I got a bump to Wisdom on an AR. This had an immediate effect of +1 to everything Wisdom based, which is a lot for my ranger (skills, bonus spells, Will save). Again, these were my choices that were made base on what came my way, not by a perfect plan. -Swiftbrook
Timlagor 05-22-07, 07:02 PM	Yep.. lots more non-archery stuff than me :)
bradoch 06-10-07, 06:58 PM	I think a pure archer ranger can be a good build for you, if you also include his favored enemies in your personality of him. If he can have a grudge against orcs or whoever else you face on a regular basis, that can add some decent damage through favored enemy. My archer will have some beef against chaotic outsiders, darn sladi, and will have a hay day with them any time he see's them. You can add up to plus 6/8 per shot depending on how you distribute. Also the ranger spells are not something to be scoffed at. With those you can really help yourself and your pet do great damage, improve some skill checks, and alter the course of some battles. A high level archer who can hit 15 enemies in one round from 250+ ft. is something to be feared.
control freak 06-13-07, 01:56 PM	archers seem better as fighters for the simple feat stacking 20 16 10 6 10 6 stupid and hatefull but hurtting in damage 1:ftr - point blank presise 2:ftr - rapid 3:ftr - monkey grip exotic prof great bow (shooting 6d6+12 is funny) 4:ftr - whepon focus 6:ftr - whepon spec, manyshot (9d6+ 24 if all hit) 8:ftr - greater focus 10:ftr - (ok you got me here) 11:ftr - (12d6+40ish depending on items you have this is ignoring the possible holy/cold/acid on your bow) 12:ftr - greater whep spec the rest is up for grabs on feats but just get a belt of str at like 8 or so and you deal a ton and crits are just funny
UMiskatonic 06-14-07, 10:14 AM	I think you'll find that archers are really more about equipment, feats, and putting your stats in the right place. As long as you are in some kinda class that gives you more hit points and more BAB (and which one doesn't) you'll be effective enough to compete at higher APLs. I've seen effective archer clerics, archer wizards, and archer druids. Rogues don't seem to work quite as well, because everyone gets so excited about sneak attack that they spend four rounds getting into position. It would be better, in my opinion, to full attack all of the time, and pick up the sneak dice when you can. And, of course, ranger, scout, and fighter all do VERY well as archers. Given the description in the original post, I would go with ranger, ranger/scout, or ranger/rogue. Fighter gives you more feats, but hurts your skill points a lot. You might be able to cram two levels in, but I'd stay away from more. You'll have fewer feats than a fighter, but you can still get the three basic archery feats by 3rd level. After that, you'll have to select wisely, as new feats don't come around very often. You'll get five more over the character's entire career. So, do you want 1/5 of your characters' feats to be spent on better rangery spellcasting (practiced spellcaster) or on better archery (weapon focus) or on melee backup plans (power attack) or on a bigger animal companion (natural bond (need Access))? I don't know, but you'll have time to think about it. 6th level is a ways off. Finally, John Twernbold's idea on starting with the higher str and bumping your dex will save you money, which isn't a bad thing. I'm in favor of strong archers, and it also helps you with carrying gear, the occasional grapple, and the occasional melee attack